Corinth13 - I am curious about your screenname. Why did you choose that particular name?

I think it has something to do with 1Corinthians 13 regarding love as God's design and purpose, especially with respect to marital partners, implying that you are born again and your wife is not. But I'd like to know from you if that is accurate or not, because it would have BIG bearing on how I might comment on the following Quotation from your post:


1. Self-centered worldview

2. God-centered worldview.

That's all for now until you have a chance to respond.

Yes, Corinth 13 is for 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.

I keep praying God will intervene and make things evident to her about what she is doing. The consequences will show sooner or later but in the meantime I'm not holding out much hope for our marriage. She claims she is a Christian but then carries on this A, which makes it even more difficult to make her understand how wrong it is, besides that, she thinks I don't like her for who she is, so how can I talk to her about the weight of the issues we are dealing with when she just thinks I'm attacking her?

I wish I had always exercised the kind of love Paul is talking about in my marriage early on. I was not a perfect husband and really failed in many areas to be quite honest, but the fact of the matter is I am working diligently to reconcile and she will have none of it. She says she tried for a long time to get through to me and it didn't work so she decided in her heart it was over and quietly went about having an A. She says the A has nothing to do with our marriage since she had already decided it was over. I told her it has everything to do with our marriage but she doesn't seem to care. Says any efforts now are too late.

I am trying with everything I have to reach out to her but to no avail. She says that even if we stay together another ten years, then have kids, we may end up getting a divorce anyway so why not just end it now? Sure, why not just jump off a bridge too since we all know we're going to die someday?

Her point being, we are not a good match, claims she can't be with me because we are too different. I told her it's not our differences that make us incompatible it was our unwillingness to love each other despite them. A little too reasonable answer for her and she won't buy it. So, I guess our next move is a divorce. What can I do if she just continues to avoid the obvious, that if I was really this horribly callous person who is unwilling to change, why am I trying everything in my power to reach out to her and save our marriage? The answer is... it's not about me, it's all about her. And she wants a divorce.

I want to love her the way Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians, wish I had done it better the first time around, but it's never too late to learn how. She says it's too late, I told her nothing is written if we don't want it to be. We have free will and we all have the capacity to change.

I totally understand, Corinth. Very similar to what my H says. "We're just not compatible," "We don't have enough in common," "She and I are so compatible we will never 'fall out of love.'" The biggest difference is that we've been married almost 16 years and have an 11 yo son. That's one thing that's kept him here, and, frankly, kept me here too, 1 1/2 yrs after dday #1 and he's still communicating w/ her. The biggest thing keeping him here, though, is that she refuses to end her M and leave her family. So she'll keep communicating and make my M impossible to repair, but she won't actually take him and I can't decided if that's good or bad.

So, maybe you should cut your losses and run. Sorry to sound so callous, but frankly, at this point, you've done what you can. If you want to continue trying I would support you in that, because I believe in marriage, but if she's refusing to end contact, what can you do?

Well, good luck, C. As was said by someone else, at least you learned something from this that you can take into your next R if this doesn't work out.

Take care,

Dulce

corinth13 - here's part of the "really tough" stuff you are going to have to face since your wife considers herself a Christian; your marriage is secondary to obedience to God's commands for both you and your wife.

Obviously the "big" problems appears to be with your wife, not with you, in the area of obedience, but the hard part for you is that until SHE repents and surrenders to God, there is little hope for your marriage. Simply put, if she will not surrender to God and obey His commands, why should you think she would surrender to you or the marriage in humble obedience of her marital vows?

So, the first order of business is to help her to see what she is doing is NOT "okay" with God and is, in fact, a statement that she does NOT love God and is NOT a Christian.

Let's face it, ALL Christians sin, but they cannot continue willfully sinning if they are truly saved because the indwelling Holy Spirit convicts us of sin so that we can repent of it. That is part of the "becoming more Christ-like" process we call Sanctification.

The Scripture is equally clear that unrepentant Adulterers will NOT be in heaven because they are NOT saved, regardless of what they might think or how they might try to "fool" themselves into thinkiing they are a Christian.

So let's get back to basics here for a minute, okay?



This is typical "Wayward Spouse 101" type talk. It is part of her trying to rationalize and justify willfully violating the 7th Commandment. Regardless, let's assume for a minute that you two are very different in many areas (so are my wife and I, btw), the argument is IRRELEVANT because you ARE married. God only allows divorce for ONE reason for a married Christian couple, and that "allowance" is only for the Faithful Spouse, NOT for the Unfaithful Spouse.

Now, all that aside, BEFORE there can be any work on "compatability" issues or "emotional needs" issues, SHE must face God (as she claims to be a Christian).

YOU continue to work on yourself through "Plan A" types of improvements and changes BECAUSE they make sense regardless of the ultimate outcome of your marriage. They are changes that make YOU a better, and hence, more desirable, person. YOU continue to pray as you have been doing.

If you are members of a church, it is time to approach the Pastor for a possible Matthew 18:15-20 intervention.

YOU need to closely evaluate your wife with respect to whether or not the two of you, together, can build a marriage that brings honor and glory to God or not. If "not," then you need to seriously consider Divorce. Understand that God "hates" divorce and will heal your marriage if you BOTH are willing to surrender to Him in humble obedience to His commands, no matter what you each may be "feeling" at any given time. God does NOT say "obey only when you feel like it." He says "obey, always."

The next step, if your wife is at least willing to try to recover your marriage is a twofold process.

1. ALL contact with the OM must end immediately and permanently, for the rest of her life. "Forsaking ALL others" is the covenant that is required for marriage.

2. Joint Christian Marital Counseling with a trained counselor is not a "good idea," it is a "MUST." You will both need the guidance and support of a person trained in saving marriages through submission to God. The basis of this is the Scriptural directive from Christ, "If you love me, you will obey my commands."

If you reach that point and want some help finding a counselor in your area, let me know and I can give you a link to a national association of counselors, many of whom provide their counseling services to Christians for free, as part of their ministry.

So, who, besides you, is talking to your wife currently about her behavior and God's position on adultery?



Yes, it IS about her. But it is NOT "hopeless." My wife had her own apartment, was planning to divorce me, had the papers drawn up and ready to serve, and had accepted a proposal of marriage from her OM. She had told the OM "I want you" in answer to his question to her, "What do you want?" when the 3 of us were standing 3 to 5 feet from each other. It does't get more "hopeless seeming" than that.

That was 4 years ago. Today she is in love with me and we are 99.9% recovered. How did it happen? She IS a Christian and realized that she had to choose God or reject God. Let a true Christian try "nailing Jesus to the Cross" all over again....it can't happen. Oh, a Christian can try to run and avoid being obedient to God, but as Jonah found out, you can't run far enough or hide well enough that God (who indwells all Christians) can't find you and make you confront the CHOICE your actions demand.

YOUR hardest part in all of this will be the waiting. Being patient while waiting on God and dealing with the terrible pain of betrayal by the one you love. Find comfort in knowing that what you feel, Jesus felt millions of times more as He took the sins of everyone on Himself. Find comfort in knowing that He left the Comforter with you. The Holy Spirit comforts you, intercedes for you, helps you, provides access to all of God's strength to enable you to.....stand.

God bless.

Thanks for the post Forever. I wonder, how long was your wife gone before she came back to wanting to reconcile? The patience part is really hard for me. I usually just want to face the issue and hammer at it until it's resolved. This has been part of the problem with my W, she shuts down when confronted with issues, and I have not been very patient with her. Something we needed to learn about each other that we missed. My tactics were called "verbal abuse," or "emotional abuse." While I just wanted to get at the issues, she took it personally and evidence of my rejection of her ideas and my lack of understanding. Obviously, she doesn't like taking responsibility for her actions; she blames her environment or other people (me).

One of my big concerns has always been for her relationship with Christ, subsequently I pushed her some to go to church, read the Bible, etc. She would never read the Bible herself and kept claiming she observed her spirituality in different ways. She never prayed with me out loud, never showed much interest in church or care groups. These things aren't required to being a Christian, but instead evidence of our faith and a hunger for the Holy Spirit in our lives. She began avoiding worship because she felt I was "forcing" it on her. Recently she said she finally went back to church after the sour taste of my heavy-handed tactics apparently subsided. If that's so, I keep hoping the pastor will do a sermon on Adultery!

I just feel as though this is a process my WW will have to go through, and it may take years. It's obvious also that we have been unequally yoked for a long time. She'll need some real painful experience or something; the weight gets too heavy, something like that. She is an incredibly stubborn person, as you can imagine and buys into the idea that we need to both just move on and learn from what's happened. I'm all for learning, but if she thinks she's setting the foundation for a more wise future, she is mistaken. This is the path of destruction she has chosen. But she doesn't recognize the consequences she'll have to face.

All I feel I can do is pray for her right now. She won't listen to anything I say. The only other godly advice she gets is from her mother, but as I've talked to her mom sounds like my W isn't taking it. She keeps clinging to this OM and will not give him up. When she asked to work on our "friendship" I told her it could not work if she's seeing the OM. She became angry and hasn't spoken of friendship since. Now she is talking divorce when before she was still fence sitting.

I just feel this is out of my hands now. She will not change until she is forced to by the stress of her own circumstances. The worse thing for her right now is that this relationship with OM actually stays together. If she would simply agree to leave OM, I would move for counseling right away. But she is placing all her hope in the OM I suppose. The problem is neither of us hold much nostalgia for our marriage, but to get her to envision a better tomorrow isn't easy. Promises are meaningless to her.

How do I get WW to realize being a Christian means addressing our sin and giving it to Christ, not just agreeing in a philosophy? Where was your W on her walk when she went astray? People (non-Christians) are telling me left and right to give up on this. To move on. I'm ready to do just that but then I read posts like yours and I begin to hope again. I'm not sure I want hope for our marriage anymore to be honest. I wish I COULD give up. If she were to come back she would have to be largely a different person, just as I am no longer the same since this began. I just don't know if that's possible in the near future.

Ahhh corinth....the truth is that you don't. It is God who works in her heart, not anyone else. YOU can stand for God and be a witness of that. An example if I may," I told my wife that if we were to divorce, SHE would have to be the one to file because I would not. I would go to my grave, whenever that might be, loving her as my wife and fellow bride of Christ.

It comes down to CHOICES that we each have to make every day. Each day there will be choices to be made. Choose humble obedience to God's commands no matter what is happening around you or how painful it is "today." "Painful" it will surely be. There were several times in the past four years when I was seriously considering throwing in the towel and ONLY the very thin, but unbreakable, thread that connected me to Christ was holding me safe from plunging into the "bottomless pit."

THIS IS NOT EASY! And anyone who says it is for anyone, believer or nonbeliever is wrong. Breaking commandments of God have serious, and often far reaching, consequences for all who are involved or touche by their breaking.



It is not. That is just natural "conflict avoidance" speaking.

You are her HUSBAND. She wants to "cakewalk" and adultery is forbidden by God. Will you stand for God, or not?

As long as she does not have to choose, she won't, because anything she chooses WILL involve pain for her, and she wants to feel good, not feel pain. But sometimes we have to endure some short term pain for the long term good. It's a poor analogy, but think of it like the pain of an immunization shot to prevent BIG problems later. Or the pain of repeated surgeries to correct serious problems and eventually return you to full health.

There is "Plan B" that follows a great "Plan A" because not all Wayward Spouses respond to Plan A. That is one of the big problems with Class II Entangled Affairs.

If you have not read Torn Asunder by Dave Carder yet, I would highly recommend you do so ASAP.

Also, if you want to read the "grim story," I can give you a link to my first thread here on MB that led to our separation and eventual decision to attempt recovery. It's very uncomfortable reading at times, but it also holds forth a lot of HOPE in the face the seemingly impossible.




Deep off the "narrow path." The path back is strewn with boulders takes time, much time. But that is precisely what Romans 8:28 is all about. The "good" that God makes out of all the circumstances in our lives is to make us more "Christ-like" in our individual walk. We all have much to learn and grow in that area, so think "long term," not "short term."



That's because recovery from adultery is HARD work. But the truth is that divorce is not easy either, it's simply another choice with it's own set of problems.




Uh huh. I felt the same way. Here's a question you need to ask yourself daily. Who do I TRUST? There is only one real answer....God. NOT me, you, your wife, anyone else.

God, believe it or not, IS in the "business" of making the impossible, possible.

GREAT is THY faithfulness, Lord, unto me. This is love, not that we love, but that God first loved us.

God bless.

Right now her main objective seems to be 1) escaping the pain of our marriage 2) seeking pleasure and reassurance outside of our marriage. The problem is these are both short term solutions or more accurately an avoidance of pain, since in the long term they her A will cause more pain then she has ever experienced before. When this first started and I was having a lot of visions of her with the OM I had to tell myself not to be jealous of what they were doing because I knew whatever pleasure they are seeking in the short term, kind of like an anesthetic, will at some point turn black.

I wrote her a letter which I gave to her today. In it I told her what the Bible says Adultery, and that she will suffer consequences for her actions but that we can both seek healing together now, instead of her continuing down her current path alone. She probably thinks she'll have this guy there to insulate her, but how long can that last?

So I've said the words, I've done what I can to warn her, told her I'm ready to pursue a godly marriage with her, but do I expect anything? No. Her response will most likely be more apathy. Maybe this will even convince her she can use me, or string me along. I've been watching for these signs, too, but they're really hard to decipher sometimes. Especially since I want to believe some change will come. That's a strong reason in itself to move away from her. Go Plan B. But if I don't give her any post-A reasons to believe I am not the jerk she wants to believe I am, why would she come back?

I asked her yesterday to tell me good things about our marriage and she didn't have anything to say. But truthfully, I'm not asking for our old marriage back, I want a completely new relationship with her. And despite her resistance otherwise, I want both of us to CHANGE. I told her we both need to seek Christ in this. So how do I show her the future has potential? Continuing to Plan A, but then I must deal with the possibility she will string me into an emotional nightmare all over again. It's not the waiting for the first A to end that scares me, it's going through another one.

For this to work at all, she must want to sincerely seek God in our relationship. She must show contrition. She told me yesterday she won't get on her knees and beg for forgiveness. I pray something will bring her to her knees which she will have no choice about. I pray for her to go through tremendous pain, not vengefully, but in order to draw her out of herself and toward Christ.

I've already told her divorce is not the answer, but she is firm on the fact we can never work out. I don't know if she would be saying this if she didn't have her boyfriend to fall back on. She says she wouldn't pick just anyone to date, assuming this is true, I'm afraid this guy may be around for a while. Is she really building a relationship with this guy? Or is this just WW thinking the antidote has been found? Is it just to alleve the pain for a while longer until the anesthetic wears off?

What were some of the problems that she complained about BEFORE the affair?

Would a friend hurt you this bad?

Would a true friend do the 1 thing that they know would hurt their friend more than anything in the world?

Do you believe cheating is an okay solution for a spouse who claims all needs are not being met?

Even if she came back, would you be able to forgive her and not beat her up emotionally for what she has done?

Corinth,

I have been in your shoes. You need to understand that you cannot shelter, protect, care for, or love a WW. Especially one that is immature and narcisisitic(sp?) Never shelter those you love from the consequence of their actions. Basically meaning let her go.

I was only married 1.5 years before I discover my Xww affair. Things where not bad. Ofcourse there are adjustments to be made,but a commitment is a commitment. You are going to continue to have "hope", but at this point, that "hope" is by far the most negative influence for your personal health and growth.

I filed for divorce 6 days after D day. She agreed. Divorce in California take 6 months to finalize. From month 2 to 6 I battled my pain and fears. During those months, she continued to ask me to return to a marriage without comprehension of the devastation she caused. Lack of maturity, lack of empathy, lack of commitment and values. Does this sound familiar? Would you want to be married to a person with those character flaws???

Please think rationally, and try not to make judgements based on fear.

Darrin

Hmmm...perhaps we should direct those questions to Jesus, the bridegroom of the church. I wonder what He would say in answer? No, I guess I really don't wonder, I already know because He has said what His "position" is on that subject.




Perhaps corinth is trying to make "judgments" base in LOVE, not in fear. "Cutting and Running" are based in fear. "Standing, hoping, and working" against seemingly (at the moment) impossible odds are based in Agape Love, CHOSEN as the response "of choice."




Really? Never? An interestingly narcassitic Standard, or at least a very unforgiving statement based in the "perfection" of the person holding such a Standard.

OK corinth, time out for some useful, practical advice:



Filing what kind of papers and by whom? I assume you mean for you to file for divorce.

Plan D may be inevitable, but why are you making a decision to file? There's a pretty simple but wise phrase that goes around here: Don't file for divorce unless you want one.

Again, Plan D may be inevitable, but let her make this choice.

In the meantime you can apply the MB plans and no matter what happens, you come out of this WAY ahead of the average bear.

What are your legal arrangements for the separation? Who's got control of your home, property, assets, and mundane things like filing income taxes?

As soon as this is arranged and you're physically apart, go immediately to Plan B and take control of your life. Sit back and let her take the Plan D steps - if she does. You're in no hurry.

Two things may happen.

1. The affair fizzles and she realizes she may have made a mistake leaving you. You may get a chance to rebuild your marriage from scratch.

2. The affair fizzles or not, yet she decides to divorce you. You do not assist her nor resist her. Let her do it all, making clear your preference that you do not want a divorce. You believe your marriage can be rebuilt. The divorce happens anyway, all by her hand.

Either way, you come out ahead, but not necessarily married. Rebuilding is not a sure bet, but you get a chance to try. No wondering what could have happened. Door #2 leaves you divorced, wondering what could have happened if SHE had given rebuilding a chance, yet you exit guilt free. Either way, you're VASTLY wiser.

corinth13 - WAT's suggestions are practical given your current situation. It is wise to make all preparations as if there will be a divorce. That includes contacting an attorney for a filing for "cause" if she proceeds with trying to making you out to be the "bad guy" in her choice to commit adultery. It is hard, because you still love her, but it is all part of of hopefully "reaching her" before it's "too late."

Having said that, do it all with the idea that should your wife choose the "worst case" scenario, you will be protected from her lunacy, but that you are preserving assets FROM a potential OM getting his slimy hands on them. Also, be ready to forgive when she reaches repentance before God.

Understand too, that while we are commanded to forgive when someone repents, you will also have to decide if you will remain married because you do not have to.

God bless.

Forever

I'm not here to argue with you as to how every marriage should be saved according to the god's intent. Having a unremorseful Wayward spouse so early in a marriage could become far more devastating with children involved.

I understand how we would like to follow in the path of Jesus (All forgiving) yet we as betrayed spouses in marriage have the RIGHT to dissolve a marriage that was defiled so soon in a marriage.

My statement as to "Never shelter those you love from the consequence of their actions." are to a degree something children are taught. I've seen many instances when people shelter or ignore immoral behavior that lead to much larger dire consequences. Some people need to hit bottom in order to stand up on their OWN FEET.

Corinth... I'm glad your getting many responses to your situation. We all can relate to one way or the other <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. I just want you to know, you have every right to dissolve this marriage. Consider what would have happened if children were involved. Can you imagine having an immature WW that galants around her OM with your children. Do you think that could be possible if you had kids?? Have peace Corinth. I wish you well.

Again make your decisions rationally without fear.

Darrin

Seoulman,

I would have to disagree, the point of the MB method of surviving an affair--at least this is what I got from it--is to ultimately affair-proof the marriage and rekindle lost (or dorment) love, passion, and ecstasy. So by facing an affair so early on in marriage, whether or not we succeed with this marriage since we will carry this knowledge with us, we prevent such difficulties when we have children, and we bring children into a home with so much more love, gaity, and happieness.

seoulman - well that's good, because I'm not here to argue with you either.

NO ONE, including me, argues that a Betrayed Spouse MUST reconcile with their spouse who committed Adultery, regardless of whether or not the WS is repentant.

But, the Betrayed Spouse HAS the choice to divorce or not to divorce. It is SOLELY in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse. MY "argument" is that divorce should almost always (there are a few rare exceptions) be the LAST resort after having first tried everything to save the marriage and restore the love between husband and wife.

Whether the betrayal happened "so soon" after the marriage began or "much later" in the marriage is "irrelevant" to the RIGHT to a divorce. Adultery, whenever it occurs, IS grounds for the Faithful Spouse to divorce if they so choose.

What is "harder" when it occurs early in a marriage is that they have had little time together to build upon, to weigh against the betrayal, even if the WS becomes repentant and wishes to remain in the marriage. But make no mistake about it, Adultery is extremely difficult to "deal with" no matter when it occurs.

Let's just say that I am firmly committed to TRYING to save marriages whenever and wherever possible, while knowing that some will not be saved because, ultimately, it DOES require the efforts of TWO people, not just one spouse alone.

God bless.

Forever

I seldom reply here. I've read extensively for 2 years and have read many of your posts. In essense, I agree and applaud you for your assistance to many people here. However on this case I hesitate in trying to continue dysfuntion when so much is at stake. Having experience with a young selfish etc etc WW. I take heart to Corinth situation. He will ultimately decide the direction of his life. We are here to shed some guidance to his ordeal, in which I can truly empathize.

Ultimately, I'm concerned with his "recovery" of self. It may be the opinion of others that taking the time and to continue his suffering may make him a better person. In this situation I disagree.

Darrin

I am totally in the same position as Corinth. My WH won't leave the OW either. WH said he is filing for divorce but is giving me the option of when to do it. We're meeting with our marriage therapist this afternoon and I'm terrified. I haven't executed Plan A completely. I need to tell his boss at work and my in-laws.

I'm just scared that WH will divorce me after he loses his job over the A. Our marriage therapist said not to disclose the A to his boss or parents, however, this has allowed WH to continue A, especially since he moved out at end of April. WH and OW work together which makes it more disgusting because I was releasing WH to OW every day.

Just last Saturday, I was at a concert and saw WH with OW! I was shocked. I climbed over 5 rows of seats to confront him. We talked briefly as I waved around my wedding ring in front of OW. They fled the scene. Since then, I haven't returned his calls. I hope he's shaking in his pants because Plan A's disclosure can do a lot of damage.

My Christian WH is living so deeply in sin. He won't meet with our pastors or Christian friends. I'm waiting for his repentance because I am ready to forgive him. Am I crazy?

Advice, anyone?

I think at this point Plan B must take effect. I gave her one final letter yesterday in which I pointed out over and over the fact that we are married, my love for her, I made it known that she IS committing adultery, talked about what I see in our future if we were to work at it, the hope that we can heal together instead of carrying along all these problems into our next relationship, and included as much as I could about God's belief in marriage and it's sanctity. I don't know what else I can say, and there's nothing I really can say that will make any difference either right now. I just wanted to plant some doubt (and hope) if possible before we stop communication.

Right now it feels really hopeless though. Impossible. At least for this marriage. Obviously I'll never relinquish hope fully, but she is a VERY stubborn person after all. She also lacks the moral clarity (obviously) to realize her need to repent, or may even have herself convinced she has already repented while still carrying on the A. She doesn't seem to have the stamina to last in a committed, long-term relationship. She gave up rather early. Oh yeah, if everything were always great it wouldn't be hard stay committed, but that's never going to happen. The way I see it every marriage will go through a dark time to varying degrees, but it has to happen.

Forgive me for my pessimism, but I don't have much confidence in her right now to actually do the right thing. I pray for her, I ask God to bring a change in her and every time I do so it seems like things became worse for our marriage. I just have to let it go now. Give it up to God and know I will be a better person out of all this. I just have to remember she made the decision to cheat, not me. I made a decision out of love to reconcile. I would much rather be in my position right now no matter how difficult it may be. I would not trade places with her for anything.

On the other hand (as I vacillate back and forth) I just hope that small amount of doubt and love for us she still has deep inside will win out. That she will find God through these circumstances which she will be held accountable for. If she is ever to change, this would seem to be the situation that pushes her that way. I believe this to be a major crossroads in her life. If she chooses to stay and attempt to heal, that in itself would signal to me she has opened up a lot of room in her heart and would begin the process of becoming more selfless. Maybe this is what God will use in her life to make that change.

Corinth,
I dont have time right now to respond...but I will this evening. But I ask before you make any decisions about this, wait and lsiten to some questions I have for you. As you approach Plan B, you really need to understand what Plan B is about. You need to be prepared to go there, because once you do it is hard to come back from it if you find out later you wanted to work on things.

So, wait until tonight and let us go thru your options together.

In His arms.