By the way WorthAtry- great guide. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not a newbie per se, but I thought it might help me with things as S seems to not be progressing.

First, in WAT guide and other places, I have read bout WS ability to - "dredge up up all kinds of trivial things from your past that "proves" your relaitonship was a big mistake." -like my H saying he hated holding hands while we were dating because I forced him to?? I have no idea where this came from. Also, he hates our friend who introduced us because he made him miserable for ten years. It goes on and on and on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

AND

"still loves you but is not in love"- mine says hasn't "been in love" for ten years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I know WAT said to not read into these things, [color:"yellow"] [/color] BUT H is still saying these things 6 months after D-day. A week after D-day H started NC with OW. I ask him every two weeks when is the last item you contacted OW- he still tells me in JAnuary- I do trust him . I have tracked phone calls, surprised him, called him when he is supposed to be somewhere, looked at credit cards. I can't imagine unless he is calling her at work and emailing through his work email, he is still seeing her or having any contact.

I just don't understand why H still continues to say hurtful unproductive things like the above. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It is a big LB for me and has caused my bank to empty. Even though my bank is empty, I continue to work on it with him. I have started recovery to better myself. H says he is with me, but is unable to discuss the A or problems in our Marriage. Discussing the problems even in a calm reassuring way causes more of the above comments with a response that I want him to be honest. MC cause H to want a D. This was quickly dismissed and here we are 6 months later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I have taken to trying to meet all of his needs and avoid LB at all cost. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just still struggling with feelings of why about A, current problems, and how to move forward.

I was right there with you, up until last week. My H has his affair last year (May-September); came home last October (too soon) and proceeded to tell me that he doesn't think he's been happy for YEARS. Wow! That one really hurt. I am coming to find that he really did not mean that one, now that he is fogless. He is softening and becoming more open and honest. I confronted him on some issues, and for the first time, he looked at the world from my vantage point. So, I understand. If you are still together, then he must need something from your relationship. I think some people are more resistant to seeing their destruction and owning it; maybe that is your H's problem. I think that realizing what you have done is a monumental task and emotionally draining. It is much easier to point the finger at others and place the blame there. If your H has been known to do that in the past, this behavior probably won't change, but if he was generally a man who owned his own messes, he will one day again. Continue delving into yourself, and change the things in you that you know need repair. Good luck.

temp

cfc, have you two gone to counselling? I thought I/we could recover from my wife's A on our own but this year found out that she'd carried on at least two new emotional relationships behind my back for the past 6 months and I'm no longer sure when the original A contact ended. I still can't believe it; I made all kinds of changes to improve our marriage in every way I could think of; we seemed to be reconciling; it doesn't make any sense but its reality. I think it was a mistake to "let it go" the first time and wish we'd dove right into counselling and gotten to the bottom of everything.

It is very possible that he's still in contact. I thought my wife *hid* things but didn't directly *lie* to me until recently. Unfortunately they can and *will* directly lie even when you think you're recovering.

Hi CFC,

I got the same kind of answers from my W... that she never did love me... married too soon... thought I was her answer to a fairytale to escape from her past... not attracted to me... etc.

Now 11 months past DD... she isn't as extreme in her answers, but she still can't say that she is "in love with me" and she feels that I love her more than she loves me. Doesn't know why... but doesn't know if it will ever get better and not willing to do some of the things that I think she should to improve this... note: this does not mean she isn't doing anything to improve... very small steps. I realize I can't dictate how she should improve and when/if I do, she runs in the opposite direction.

My belief is some of this is from the lack of trust our spouses have for us because of how they feel about themselves. They are ashamed and hate what they did and can't believe that we can love them. They might believe we are staying because of kids or fear, or whatever else... but not willing to be vulnerable and commit to the idea that they are loved.

I recently wrote to my W these reasons why I am staying with her...

- I choose to stay because I have so much more to learn.
- I choose to stay because my sons need me and I don't want to give up a full-time life with them until they are moving out.
- I choose to stay because I made promises.
- I choose to stay because I can... not because of fear, or because I'm trapped.
- I choose to stay because of the reading on the wall in our bathroom... patience with others is love, patience with self is hope, patience with God is faith... and I believe this was the message I was to learn all those times the word patience kept jumping out at me.
- I choose to stay because it is right.
- I choose to stay because I am curious... to see how this will end.
- I choose to stay because I love a challenge and hate to give up. (I don't mean that you are a challenge... most of the time... but that me learning these lessons is my challenge.
- I choose to stay because we do need each other... in a good way, the way that God intended for couples in a marriage.
- I choose to stay because neither of us are perfect and it is these imperfections that make us individuals and worth loving.
- I choose to stay because I like you... you have a lot of great qualities.
- I choose to stay because I love you. I'll say it again... you are worth it. Even though my actions sometimes have probably caused you to disbelive that statement but it is true. I hope one day that you will believe it yourself. I do deserve to be loved... and I am. You love me the best you are able to right now... and today... that is more than enough.

I almost left. Not because of the A. But because of a moment of weakness in believing and having hope that things will be better... because my expectations are much higher now than pre-A.

You need to find your own reasons for staying and stick with them. I think I hurt our recovery by telling her "I couldn't take it any more... I deserved more... I was leaving" Because now she doesn't trust that I mean it when I say I she is worth it.

I could see pros and cons for staying or leaving. When I sought answers... the answer I found was that either way was ok... but what was needed was a decision for one and a resolve to keep that one. I chose to stay and will remind myself of that everyday. In time, I believe my W will trust my love and will "surrender" and be willing to love in return. She will feel safe enough to love. Right now I believe she is scared. Maybe it is the same with your H?

Shaden

CFC

Let me tell you a story.

You know about my FWW's A.

Before she went on her trip I just knew she was going to have an A. Her behavior indicated nothing wrong with our M but with her. Since she had her plastic surgery, new boobs and lypo on her but and thighs, and her lips being done she was a different person. It became evident to me that she was liking the attention way to much.

I told her about my fears. She said to me. You have nothing to worry about. You are a great husband, father and lover. Plus she said she was insulted that I would even think she would do that. I brought this fear up more then one time each time hearing how great we were and how lucky she was.

Then she has the A. On D Day she called to tell me what she did. She begged me to stay with her. She said she would understand if I left. She begged me to go to an MC. She told me she couldn't believe she did that to me because I have always been wonderful to her. So I went to the MC.

On the second session MC asked "Do you want to try to make this work with your wife" I said absolutely I love her. He asked her "Do you want to try to make this work with your husband" Her response was "I don't know things have been so bad for so long I don't know if I want him anymore. He has not treated me well and I don't know if I can forgive him".

Well wasn't that a real quick revision to history here. What happened was she had time to justify her A and start finding my faults.

It is easier for them to deal with their part if they didn't love us for x amount of time. It is easier for them to deal with if it was our faults that drove them to this.

Then they do not have to kiss our a$$ we have to kiss theirs. I don't believe anyone should have to kiss anyones a$$.

What my advice through this is to realize he may be re writing history so he is not the one that caused the D that he may fear is coming.

Keep doing what you are doing showing him D is the farthest thing from your mind. He may see this and he may not. All you can do is to show him.

He may never admit he was lying about not loving you for 10 years but that is his cross to bear.

cfc,
What was your marriage like before the A? How did your H behave toward you? Did he ever meet your ENs?

I'm glad you found the guidelines helpful.

I'll propose that either he is still trying to justify his affair OR the affair is still in progress and he's still trying to justify it.

Did you complete all exposure? Do you know OW? Did he write a NC letter?

Can you elaborate on this statement?

WAT

Sorry it took awhile for me to respond. H and I were together all weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When we were first married things were rough as I was living away from home, H was in the USMC, and he worked 24/ 48 hour shifts and I was going to school and working full- time. We had a lot of LB at first. After about 2 years things calmed down. I have always thought that we have had a wonderful marriage. We are good at reading each other. We have fun together (until lately). Friends of ours always comment on how happy we are. We have great kids together and life was good- in general. We have never been good at arguing always LB- AO (me and him) and DJ (him).

I always felt that H was not as caring as I liked. he never met my need for affection. Not material affection but letting me know he cared- hugs, kisses, saying he loved me...just thought that was his personality. I also never trusted him as he had a buddy buy him a table dance one time right after we were married and he was on a deployment-he never told me. I found out- I was hurt, but H said he was embarrased (this made sense as he often hides his feelings). Since then we have worked to him opening up to me. He has come a loooooooong way! H has other feelings about the marriage, but I am not sure which to believe and which to ignore?

Some are just like the comments above and others are things I need to work on. H has always said that I was needy. I am realizing it wasn't needy, but controlling because I was trying to prevent H from hurting me (I had a horrible childhood). We were following Mb rules, but never knew it. We didn't do things that made the other unhappy- he always wanted to go out drinking at the bars and I never agreed to this (until this Nov- during the A). He never wanted me to go out dancing with my friends for the same reasons. H was extremely angry about this always. Would say i never let him do anything. I felt like he could go do what ever he wanted- bar hopping with his single friends was not something that i liked. SO he never went because he said he hated to hear me complain if he went anyways. Besdies that problem our marriage has been great! you know not maddly in love, but good!

The A was a huge shock- no one ever thought he would have done that. He is generally a great guy.

Things in our lives have been a different story- together, we have very bad luck .

BAD LUCK STORY
In the past three years (the worst of our marriage), our daughter was born, dog died three weeks later, then son went in hospital and almost died, we moved two weeks later, our new house molded, children suffered severe respitory issues for a year until we found out what was wrong. Our second home ( mobile home) was destroyed by renters, remodeled by us, then had a tree fall through the roof, and now it has been stolen and the insurance company has been working on it since this January and haven't responded. In addition the house we live in now had a mold problem which caused us to be homeless for three months in December 04' - we had to fight a legal battle to recover a fourth of the cost to fix the home. The my H and I had to all the work to the house ourselves including ripping out all carpets, some drywall, and a whole bathroom. then putting everything back in. Then the basement had to be microbially sprayed.............it goes on and on. The kids just moved back into their rooms this last NOvemeber. I opened a new business this year (a lot of work and stress, but I can still be a SAHM and make money to pay for bad luck stuff). H this last year suffered a knee problem from childhood they wanted him to have his leg broken again and re-set Also H suffered a heart condition which made him loses a career position he was waiting on for 5 years. Then he lost 40 pound and stopped drinking because of the heart.

H was depressed from last March to now! (go figure I thought it was the stress of everything that made him depressed).


I think ..... OW made H feel good because she wasn't attached to any stress like I was. H said he reminded him of me when we first met. Carefree. Now I would love to be care free, but I am the one who manages everything kids, bills, house, social events..... I don't mind as H definately doesn't want them, BUT I would like to feel carefree at times. H and I have tried to make life like this more often. We even bought a camper to go away from the house stress and enjoy each other.

I think that being a man and not being able to keep his family from all of this stress has caused some problems for him. Also the fact that as all of this happend we lost contact with his family. They thought that we were making everything up and accused us of making up our kids illnesses (Our massive DR's bills should have changed their minds but it didn't).

In addition here is what happend to lead up to the A:

He is unhappy with job he hates. He complains that he has always been controled by me (Has been saying this for years on and off). I begin to write him emails saying that I think if he is unhappy he should take necessary steps to change it. He says he wants to go out with friends and do his own thing and I never let him. I tell him to do what he needs because I want him to be happy. He keeps saying it so I send letter after letter I tell him to grow some b$%# and do what he wants and to stop blaming me for his unhappiness. One months later our 10 year anniversary arrives and I wanted to have a vow renewal- I feel things are wonderful in our relationship, I have tried to give H the freedom that he wants, but he won’t take it. H gives me a ring I want –basically I wanted to have him propose properly- I told him I would love this and had been saying it for years. H give me ring and says I could have bought two kayaks for the same price. I was hurt. The rest of the Evening was good. We go get ring sized. I don’t wear it because we start arguing about our relationship. I tell him I really didn’t want a material ring, but a symbol that he loved me and would marry me again. At this point, I tell him I want to know why he loves me. H can’t answer. LB LB LB.

SECRET SA starts at this time.

Then H finds out heart and knee are fine after losing 40 lbs in about 9 months. A week later H says I have never loved you for ten years. He goes on and on about trivial facts, I sit quietly and listen. The day after this I write what I call planQ. H comes home and I have this plan ready to fix the marriage but the Affair has already begun and H is foggy. I knew that A had started but H refused to agree.

I confronted him in January.


I am 99% sure that the A is over. I think that H is really having trouble coming to terms with what he has done. It is interesting. We just found out that his sister may be having an affair. He is saying, "can you believe she would do this?" ---YES, I can!

What things can you do to be 100% sure?

Do you know the OW?

Do you have a copy of Surviving An Affair? If so, give it to your H and suggest he give it to his sister's husband - after you suggest he read it so he'll know how to confront his sister. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If you don't have a copy, order two - one for you and one for him to give to his BIL.

WAT

Did you complete all exposure?
No- I only EXPOSED to my friends as a support system. I also told my Dad and his wife. I exposed to my whole new school that I opened because I was a wreck and parents were beginning to wonder about me. They were very supportive as 70% of them have gone through the same thing.

I told his best friend, but H doesn't know. Best Buddy was surprised. Left it at that. I was desperate at this point as I didn't know what to do.

MC was horrible. H hates counseling. He likes to bottle all of his feelings. H hated telling another about our feelings. He says they are all quacks. I don't agree. Our last session, the ride home was horrible as I said something true that H wouldn't admit to. He said I have never wanted to divorce you until now. Thus ends MC.


Do you know OW?
OW was a PR at the resort he was working at. She went through HR to track his name and number. And continued to call him. After he started working there, he went out nights with her. Then SF right away (his second time).


Did he write a NC letter? I called her and said are you done with my H now? She hung up and called H who told her it was over. He said they had agreed that the SF was over before Christmas because she was trying to work on her marriage AND H says he gotten frightened when she said she would leave her H for him. He just wanted to fool around, not get serious. EA ended the week after D-day in this manner. I followed up on him all the time to make sure. Called frequently, surprised him, all the things SAA said to do.


I really think that the A is over unless he is calling her from work or email from work. Then it would be EA only because he has no time for SA anymore. It is work, home, or second job, or out with a friend that I trust, or is with kids, or me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

To be 100% sure I would have to follow him around day and night. I am not willing to do that. I think at some point I need to say I trust you that extra 1% and let him go. If he hurts me again he knows that I will leave.

Do you have any suggestions? this is my best.

Oh and I would be treading on thin ice if I were to give the brother in law this book as the family hasn't spoken to us in a very long time bc of the mold issues with my kids. My H's sister is a real %$#^^&#%. My H can't even stand her, she has no friends and is a sad case. I have tried befriending her with much pain. The BIL would probaly be better without her, but that is not my decision.

Call her husband and spill the beans. He may be completely in the dark and deserves to know.

Be ready to share any hard evidence you have with him.

What's a "PR"?

WAT

CFC

I found constant vigilance exhausting. Instead I gave it to Squid to demonstrate her trustworthiness by transprency and radical honesty.

Its less tiring for the BS and gets the FWS into good marrige-friendly habits IMO.

PR - Public relations- she did a fine job relating to my H! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh and my BIL knows there is a EA because the guy came knocking on their side door when H was home unexpectedly.

What is IMO? bob?

And explain more about transparency and radically honesty and how you know that is what it is.

IMO = "In My Opinion".

I had three basic bundaries that were inviolable for me to remain in my marriage:

1. NC for ever
2. Transparency
3. FWS protecting me from hurt & making me feel safe

Transparency is the deliberate removal of secrecy by a spouse to th eother so that any likelihood of secrecy is very small.

I decided it was Squid's job to regain my trust, not mine to catch her out. She HATED this at forst, and is still not a fan as she is a very privat e person BUT she is transparent.

I see phone bills, call lists, have contact numbers of anywhere she goes, lists of people attending txtx and calls from her when she's away , POJA discussion of her independent plans etc.

PORH is simple - policy of radical honesty - no lies. I know RH to be true as I occasionally validate with witnesses etc. Not every time now though, we've been doing this for more than a year now.

I am also transparent to Squid and radically honest with her so she cannot feel victimised.

If Squid gets tired of respecting my boundaries she is free to leave any time, as am I.

Instead of driving her away or making her angry she values me FAR more now she knows I am no doormat.

And it helps me rebuild a level of trust that is not exhausting.

This only works if you're prepared to divorce unles you get transparency and RH.

Hope this helps.

cfc - what about exposing to OW's husband?

WAT

I think that I am prepared to divorce, execpt once things are better, I am not sure I will want to feel this way- It feels distant to me.

Where can I read your whole story bob?

I think that I have established these boundaries:

1. Radical honesty- H hates it too, but seems to think it is amusing at times- this lightens the problem.

2. If there is another affair- I will leave

3. He needs to follow the agreement to Overcome LB and meet the most emotional needs from the five steps to romantic love book. which we have been working on one at a time. We are starting with LB- specifically stopping all AO right now. It has been two weeks now with no AO. Of course I haven't brought up anything sensitive. We meet most of each others ENs.


I had H fill out the LB and EN questionairres when he was in a fog. Maybe I should have him redo them?


WAT, are you saying I should expose to my WH OW' spouse or are you thinking about my BIL?

If you are saying I should expose to OW husband, should I do that now- 6 months after the affair ended? OW will call my H again and maybe begin contact. Should I risk this?

If my H finds out he would be angry that I am not trusting him now. What do you think?

I don't know OW husband, but have thought about driving by their house to meet him. I know their address and phone number that is it.

I recommend this because there is a very good possibility that the affair isn't over. No NC letter has been sent, right?

Further, don't you think OW's husband deserves to know?

Yes, there's a chance OW may then contact your H. Yep, accusations of mistrust, etc., etc., etc. will follow. But this will come even if you're right.

If he's sincere, he'll send a NC letter. Get a separate copy to her husband. This will be better than a phone call to him from you.

JMHO

WAT