My H and I were having a real heart-to-heart conversation the other night. I asked him about a statment he had made a couple days earlier when he said "I feel like giving up". He dropped this on me when we were getting ready for bed, and I try to make it a point not to start discussing heavy issues at bedtime. Anyway, he talked and I listen, no interuptions or comments from me. After he told me a few really heart-felt things, he abruptly got up and left. He went to another part of the house and brooded for a little while. Then he said "are we finished 'talking' now, am I excused?", as if talking to me was a chore that had to be done. I noticed this is a pattern with him, as if he's uncomfortable discussing emotional issues with me. I posted earlier that I believe him to be passive-aggressive and I am trying (after 27y of M) to learn to deal with it before I lose my mind. Is this common behavior for PA people or men in general or what?

My H does this, and he's not at all PA -- there's nothing passive about him.

Sorry I don't have any answers, but I can empathize.

MOB,

My FWW is passive aggressive as well but I don't think that is the whole reason this happens.

It is a continuation of the getting it off my shoulders and putting it on yours.

Your H told you what he thinks and his feelings but does not want to hear how it effects you.

He probably feels relieved he told you his feelings but now why deal with how you feel about it.

My FWW uses the are we done talking thing all the time. Usually after making a devastating comment like that.

She will start conversations at night or on the phone so there can be a quick resolution to the situation. She will then say I need to get to bed it's late as I sit on the couch wondering what the heck just happened.

Now that I recognize this I will not start a converstion on the phone or late at night without the understanding that we will discuss the issue later.

My FWW loved doing this to me. BTW I ... god I feel better already that I got that off my chest. Gotta go to sleep now.

If this is what happens to you set a new boundry. No doing that to me unless we can discuss it. I do not need another sleepless night because you dumped that on me.

People in affairs are already being pulled/leaning toward their other person. They want to be with that person more than with you (cravings). They see that person in a light that makes them angels... perfect.

So any discussion like this just makes them want to be with you even less at that moment.

What do a lot of smokers do when they have a stressful moment? They go out and smoke a cigarette.

What does a WS do when they are stressed by their WS? They go away and contact the OP if possible.

This does stop once the affair is truly over, yes.

Sundog, Hurtingless, AmiWalsh--Thanks for replying to my post. His behaviors don't have anything to do with the A (which has been over for awhile), but more from long established habits that I allowed to continue just to avoid conflict. I know I have to establish boundries for myself, but it's hard not to just backdown and let him have his way again. If he had his choice, he'd never talk to about anything beyond the mundane stuff of everyday life. I have an anology about this: picture a sleeping bear. You might go over and poke the bear with a stick to see if it's alive. If you poke the bear with a stick enough times, it's gonna wake and be really PI**ed off at you! I AM THE SLEEPING BEAR.

LOL.

I love the sleeping bear analogy.

When you figure this out let me know. I am the same dang way. Our marriage is FUBAR'D because of this type of behavior. Well established patterns on her part.

Got a funny one. We went to lunch today and we were talking. She said she feels like she has to stand up for herself all the time because no one did. She realizes it is a very detrimental character flaw sometimes. Etc. etc.

We leave lunch and I am trying to make a left. I pull out and this lady speeds up so I can't get in. My FWW is pissed and she is going to stand up for herself. She tells me I can get in the right lane and I said no. She asked why and I said because I know you want me to get over there so you can tell her a thing or two. Funny thing is that she said I was right. LOL Standing up for herself again.

I think thats why we are not in recovery. Every thing I have asked her to do she refuses because she needs to stand up for herself. Oh well I guess you reap what you sow. I have sowed the seeds of this mess now I get the bumper crop. LOL

I don't know a ton about passive aggressive behavior. From what I have read, it is a normal defense mechanism. It becomes a disorder when it becomes habitual and reflects a permenantly pessimistic outlook. I don't know whether your H is like that or not.

I only know this because at one point I thought my FWW was PA. I don't think she is. She is just using a fairly ordinary defense mechanism. Its basically a non-confrontational way of not doing something she does not want to do. I don't say that as disrespect to my FWW. Its just what it is. I don't think she likes doing things this way, I don't think she does it to hurt me, or manipulate me, its just the way her experience has taught her to handle things.

Anyway, if one is using this defense mechanism, it creates a conflict between the two and its very hard for both parties.

As an example, Early after D-Day, I would often say to my FWW, I would like to talk about things, I think its important to talk about things, etc. She would usually say, I agree, let's talk about them this weekend. The weekend and would come, and I would sit there on Friday night waiting for her to bring it up, then saturday morning, then saturday night, etc. Finally, at the last possible hour, I would say, hey I thought we were going to talk, and she would say, oh yes, I was just about to bring that up.

Thankfully, things are much better around that now. MT has done great things to help with this.

What I have tried to do differently (and most of this has been posted here before), is first to be patient. To stop trying to have "important talks" all the time. Try to have some "normal" conversations. Also, make a point to have a purpose when you want to talk that isn't always about the R.

Second, make FWS feel totally safe. This one is a little bit more tricky. Its not to hard to say to yourself, well I'm not going to yell at them, or do a bunch of DJ's, but IMHO, that is not enough. You have to try and understand why they don't feel safe. Certainly on my part, it was because historically I did LB a lot when my FWW we talk to me. I would try to educate her or some other thing. But there were also deeper things. For example, based on my wife's childhood and upbringing, she has always been a peacemaker. She is very adept and telling people what they want to hear. This serves her very well in business, but is sort of a barrier to open and honest commmunication. She also generally does not like to dissappoint people. So making her feel safe also invloves letting her know that I would rather her not try to guess what I want to hear and not to worry about dissapointing me.

The third thing is to try to think of any other reasons why they do not want to talk about things. I'm not saying ask them, I'm saying to think of them yourself and try to eliminate them. My FWW thought I thought she was a bad person. I don't, and I try to tell her that and show it with my actions. My FWW sometimes thought if we had an "important talk", it would ruin the day or the weekend. Again, I try to tell her and show her that it doesn't. If there are other reasons you can think of, try to solve them. Another big one, is the talking won't do any good. My FWW, never seemed to think this, but if your H does, there are ways to work through that.

Next, start having conversations that aren't about day to day stuff, but aren't about the R or the A. I have spent a long time talking to my FWW about her work. Really trying to understand it better. I also make a point to ask her how she feels about it. A great one is to also ask some questions that require a person to reveal something about themselves, that is relatively harmless. "Which 3 historical figures would you like to have over for a dinner party?" "If you could have any super power what would it be and why". Things like this are good ways to allow a spouse who is uncomfortable opening up to to kind of get into the habit of it, in a harmless way. You may actually be surprised by your spouses creativty and they may be surprised by yours.

Finally, be prepared to talk anytime, be prepared to hear anything and not take it personally, and be prepared to end the talk at anytime.

When I look at things this way in my sitch. I say, that's not so bad. FWW is not used to talking alot, she has some fear about doing it now, (but most of her fears are because she cares for me), she (and I) are getting better at it, so we'll see how it goes.

Don't know if any of that helps, but I thought I'd try.

Now, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Last 2 days he's been very loving, not griping at me about the amount of $$ it's going to cost out-of-pocket to get my vehicle fixed etc. Problem is, I was so hurt by recent event's, it makes me paranoid.

Hi MBOB,

Its k.d.'s heartbreak,

Could it be that your husband is feeling guilt and trying to make up for saying those hurtful things to you and now is back pedaling???

Recovery is so hard..........

((MBOB)

"Now, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Last 2 days he's been very loving, not griping at me about the amount of $$ it's going to cost out-of-pocket to get my vehicle fixed etc. Problem is, I was so hurt by recent event's, it makes me paranoid."

I don't know if I have said it to you or not but here it goes.

You should be gaurdedly optomistic about these things.
The other shoe may have already dropped so you may be waiting on something that isn't going to happen.

M is no cake walk. Then again cake walks are not that hard so I don't know where that stupid analogy came from. It is like musical chairs only you get a cake. Whats hard about that. Oh I digress.

Every M has problems it is how we deal with them that is important.

KD and Hurtingless--I guess I have become so wary of his patterns.... When things are "FUBAR" ,as you so aptly put it, he sulks around like a five year old. When things are OK he acts as if nothing has happened and he did not do and say the hateful things he did and said. Then something else will come along and upsets his "delicate balance". I'll try to be optimistic, but it takes real strength. Thanks for listening.

Ok MOB

I think I have said this before but I think they xeroxed your H and put a wig on him and sent him my way.

When I am down she runs away. When I am happy she runs toward. Then she makes me feel down and runs away till I feel happy again. When things are ok she acts like nothing happened. Always with the promise to talk about it later.

So far later has not got here yet. I think it will happen later though. Problem is that today later is not today. I gotta figure that one out. LOL.

I feel like as I get stronger and need her less she sees this and wants to pull closer. When she sees I am happy with the outside world and the outside world is happy with me she wants me more. Problem I have sometimes as I get this inner peace the less I want her.

I am optimistic about one thing. I will be OK.

Ya' know, sometimes I get the impression it Pi$$es my H off that I am alot more optimistic than he is. As a PA personality, he thrives on pessimism. Sadly, I am not as optimistic as or as naieve as I once was, but the joy is returning slowly.

Here are some traits that might look familiar to you.

FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.


*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.


*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.

My wife is always the victim. I have to make darn sure not to do or say anything that will allow her to be the victim.

For example if my wife told me that she did something really really bad. If I call her a name or get mad what she did is now irelevant. I now gave her a reason to be the victim.

I will give you a perfect example. We had money problems after the A. She kept buying clothes. I went to MC one night and came home and brought up her spending. She said she wanted a D. I said oh yeah then let me throw away half of these clothes you bought since the A. She got physical threw me to the ground, I was bending over so it was easy. She then started punching me. I told her if she touched me again I was calling the cops. I got the video camera out to record what was happening. She saw me and I told her I recorded everything. She jumped on my back and started choking me trying to get the camera. I got her off back called 911. She went to jail because she admitted she hit me.

Now guess who was wrong. Me I should not have tried to throw just the clothes she bought since I told her not to spend money away. She was not wrong for buying them. I was wrong for having her arrested. She was not as wrong for hitting me.

She kept saying that she could have called the cops when I was throwing her stuff away and thats what she should have done. She said if I ever tried to throw her stuff away she would call the cops on me.

Three weeks ago she starts throwing our stuff away. Wedding pictures and frames. I asked her to stop a picture frame comes flying my way not trying to hit me but to tell me to throw it away. I ask her to stop. She throws them all away. Mikasa frames no less. About $600-$1,000 worth of stuff. I said I just called the cops on you. She said why would you do that. I said you told me if I ever tried to throw stuff out again you would call the cops so I am following your rule.

I didn't call but she says to me why would you do that to me. She was the victim because I said I called the cops and that traumatized her because of the last time she went to jail. No mention of me cleaning up the glass or appologizing for the frames that were in the dumpster. Poor little thing was so vicitmized because I told her I called the cops.

Hurt--Wow, that's some wife you have there.
My H is a text book portrait of the P/A man. Although he knows what he does is wrong, somehow it isn't his fault. Even when talking (what little talking he did) about the A he liked to say "I'm sorry for what I did, but it was proof that there was something wrong with our M". That being said, he hasn't changed much since in the 2+ years since D-day. When I had a minor car accident a few weeks ago, he was the one most hurt because I apparently didn't care enough about his "stuff" to take care of it. He even threatened me with divorce, in some bizare chain of thought.

I know I got lucky with her. I keep telling myself that. LOL

My FWW is the same exact way. It is never her fault for what she did even though she knew it was wrong.

She actually blamed my cousin for inviting her out the night she slept with the OM the first time. LOL.

But it is what it is.

True to form, the other shoe already dropped. It's too weird for words why we're fighting tonight, but nonetheless, he's angry at me for "not supporting him" in a situation where I just couldn't. Is it more fair to just leave, or should I tell him if he doesn't get a grip on himself, I AM leaving?

OMG

Stop you are killing me. LOL.

I hate to know there is another one of mine out there.

My FWW gets mad at me for not supporting her when she is not right or I disagree. Or I couldn't support her.

Then she gets angry and holds it against me for what she considers to be the correct amount of time. Until I have said I am sorry then some.

I don't know what to tell him. If I knew what to say I would have said it a long time ago.

I am tired of the push pull game. If I finally get fed up and start pushing her away she wants to pull closer. Once I think it is sincere and start pulling her closer she pushes me away. Never are we both working to pull together.

I realized last night I could get everything I want if I just keep pushing her away. How sick is that? The only way for me to get what I want is to push her away.

The minute I show that I am happy with the progress she has started to make the progress stops.

Hurt--Moments of clarity have set in and I know that I want to give this thing one more shot before I pull the plug. I know it'll be hard work, but I hope I can endure. Wish me luck!! "Living with the Passive-Agressive Man" by Scott Wetzler, has been a great help. maybe you could read it and substitute woman for man??? LOL

See that clarity helps. I think sometimes it is like pushing a big rock up a hill. Sometimes all momentum stops but you just hunker down and wait until you can start pushing it up the hill again.

I have been studying PA behavior and the only thing that concerns me is this on how to deal with the PA person:
"Protection: Don’t expect or want anything from them"

I personally might just withdraw at this point. Her mom came in yesterday and is staying with us for the summer. I might go into a modified plan B and let her know these are my conditions to staying in this M.

I have to stay in the same house for custody reasons. I will figure it out. Sometimes just being here gives me those Moments of Clarity.

It it gets bad just hunker down and try to keep the rock from rolling back to far.