am new to this forum, found out about WH infidelity on Sunday...it hasn't even been a week! Anyway, let me explain my situation, and can someone please give me some advice? I'm so emotional right now...

WH told me that when he was out of town a couple of weeks ago, he cheated on me. I was (of course) devestated, however, I really love(d) him and was willing to forgive and try to patch things up. But he told me that he's confused, not sure why he did it, etc. And so I told him I'd give him some space to sort things out; I found out yesterday (from MIL) that he had to "get away for awhile" and he went back to the city where the EA occurred! Oh, and on D-Day, he also told me that he's still keeping in touch with the OW!

I don't know what to think about this...does he want out? Why is he still "in touch" with the OW? Do I wait until he's back from his little "trip" (supposed to be back this weekend) to see what he has to say? Am I acting as though I am the guilty one? We would be celebrating our 2nd anniversary in July; I am one of those people who never thought it could happen to me.

Someone please give me some advice; I a feeling a million different things right now, and I don't feel as though I can trust my own judgement. Anything anyone has to say would be appreciated.

Genie1980
-------------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

--------------------
Genie1980
----------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

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believer
Member


Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 15189
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3034001 - 06/08/06 08:50 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Welcome to marriagebuilders. It is a good place to be under the circumstances.

It is very common for them to say they want space, when what they really want is to continue the affair.

How was your marriage before this happened? Does he have any issues from childhood?

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genie1980
Junior Member


Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 6
Loc: British Columbia, Canada Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: believer]
#3034100 - 06/08/06 10:25 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hi believer,

We were together for two and a half good (but not perfect) years before we were married. The first year of marriage was tough and resulted in a short seperation shortly after our 1st anniversary. We were both raised (or so I thought) to believe that marriage takes work, and so we got back together and vowed to do everything in our power to stay together. The past year had been great up until about a month and a half ago when my FIL had a stroke. Although he's recovered quickly and is doing well, I fear that my M suffered! I asked my H what was wrong, and was told "I'm worried about my father, I'm not happy with my job, I miss my friends." (We moved to BC from Alberta just over a year ago, and neither of us has met many people). I told him that I loved him and would support him in any way possible. Without going into great detail, things were up and down, and so I encouraged him to make a trip back to Alberta to visit his friends. And this is when the EA occurred! Needless to say, I feel betrayed, among other things.

As for childhood issues, I'd honestly have to say that I'm the one with that to deal with! And believe me, I have been. However, that being said, he told me of one incident from when he was 16 or 17 years old. His mom met someone on the internet and his father actually took her to the airport so she could catch a plane to the USA to meet the OP! She changed her mind though, and came back. I'm not sure that anyone besides my MIL knows what happened when she was gone. When my H told me this for the first time, he started to cry.

And this is part of what confuses me; I guess I thought that because of that one incident, my H would never have an EA. Pretty naive of me, huh??!!

--------------------
Genie1980
----------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

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Lillian77
Member


Reged: 04/27/06
Posts: 32
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3034106 - 06/08/06 10:38 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hi Genie,

Welcome to MB though sorry you have to be here!

I'm a bit confused by your story...you say that your H admitted he cheated on you but you keep referring to it as an EA (emotional affair). So, did he say he slept with OW or that they got emotionally close or what?

If you've been reading here you'll know that what believer says is sadly true. It's common for cheating spouses to say they 'need space' when really they just want to carry on the A unimpeded. It's a huge red flag that your H has gone back to the city where OW lives to 'get space'. I hate to say this to you, but it's likely that this means 'to see her', especially if he's told you he'd still in contact with her.

What else has he said to you? Has he said it's over? My advice to you would be as follows:
1) Start snooping all you can to see if you can find out what is really going on here. If your H is still involved in an A you can expect him to lie through his teeth to you. Sorry, but that's what cheating spouses do. I too am one of those who thought my H would NEVER cheat on me. Turns out he lied to me for well over a year, countless lies. He was still trying to lie and say I was 'reading too much into it' and they were 'just friends' when I read emails that were written after the A had been going on 6+ months. By snooping I mean ... cell phone, email, keylogger on computer if possible, whatever you can do. Check CC for details of hotels etc from this trip.
2) Read up on plan A
3) Keep posting here. Let us help you through it.

Big hugs,

Lil

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genie1980
Junior Member


Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 6
Loc: British Columbia, Canada Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: Lillian77]
#3034133 - 06/08/06 11:24 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Lil

Oops! My bad, I used the wrong acronym Please bear with me; I am new to this discussion forum thing, and my mind is just not in a good place right now!

My H cheated on me, or this is what he said to me. He did also tell me that he's keeping in contact with the OW (!), and when I finally asked why, he said it was her that "gave him the courage" to admit the A to me!!!

I suppose I should've mentioned that my H has friends in this city, and his bro & SIL live there as well. Still, I certainly question his choice of locations as he has friends in other cities too!

He did not tell me that it's over, though I didn't give him much of a chance. My rage took over any conversation we might have had. I am not sorry for it because the pain of his A is still very fresh. After giving this pretty much constant thought over the last few days, I've decided to try to talk to him when he gets back. Is this a bad idea? People say to trust your instincts, but that's what I did when I fell in love with him and look at where it got me!

Ugh. I feel for you because I think the lying has been one of the toughest things for me to accept. He came back from his trip to Alberta and told me that he loved me and I'm his best friend! I now feel stupid and naive to think that I feel for his violation of my trust! How could I be so dumb? I am so confused by everything...like I said, I have about a million different emotions that I'm trying to deal with right now! I wake up one morning feeling as though I'm drowning in sorrow; the next day I'll be mad as HE77!

I WILL keep posting here...this is only my first day and I'm beginning to realize how much this is going to help me! Thank you for your encouragement, and most of all the "big hugs" because I am alone right now (as I mentioned, friends and family are all in another province) and I need as many hugs as I can get!

--------------------
Genie1980
----------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

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genie1980
Junior Member


Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 6
Loc: British Columbia, Canada Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3034766 - 06/09/06 06:09 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hello out there!

It has now been 5 days since my H told me of his A. I have more and more questions every day, and need to vent some of them here. Oh, and I am going to be getting a copy of Surviving An Affair...I can hardly wait to start reading!

First, I am aware that I need to be able to control my emotions before implementing Plan A. Could somebody please explain to me how I can work on doing this? Since finding out about the A, it hasn't been uncommon for me to experience 5 mood swings a day! First I'm sad, then I think I can get through this, then I get angry, and it just continues on like that. Please tell me some techniques (if any) some of you have used to control all of these emotions!

Second, my H and I had a very brief talk the day after he revealed the A to me. I know now (and knew then!) that it was too early, but I agreed to meet with him anyway. Needless to say, it didn't go well because I was VERY angry still. However, before we parted again, he said things like "I don't know if I love you anymore" and "I'm very very confused". At the time, I thought for sure that it meant the end of our marriage. After having cooled down a bit though, I started to think that we might still be able to do this. And all this week I have been up and down and back and forth. My question (at the end of all that ranting!) is this: why do I feel as though I am the only one who wants to save the marriage? Am I being naive (again)? Should I really just say "it's over" (when I see him again that is...I haven't heard from him since Monday.) Sometimes I feel as though I'm trying too hard to hold on, and I haven't even heard any more of what he has to say!

My third and final question: "I love you but I'm not in love with you". Does someone have an explanation of the difference? I fell in love with his witty sense of humour and outgoing personality. Those are a couple of things that I still love about him. I miss his eyes and his smile, and the way he smells (among other things). So what does this mean?

Any insight would be appreciated...

--------------------
Genie1980
----------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

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Longhorn
Member


Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 1242
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3034778 - 06/09/06 06:33 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Genie, we've heard all of those words from wayward spouses (WS). They are standard and indicate nothing more than the wayward one is still involved in adultery. It's routine for them to have no motivation to save the marriage and, in fact, you will have to do all the heavy lifting for a long while if you want to salvage this. The question of whether to work that hard on bringing him back is completely up to you. Dr. Harley writes that if there are no children, it's more difficult to reconcile than if there were. Are you ready to work hard and expect little reward for a long time?

If you are, I suggest you click on the link in my signature block that leads you to a thread on how to organize a marital recovery. There is a lot of information on that thread from various people out here who have also suffered through an infidelity in their marriage and come out the other end sane and well.

Last, you will get a lot more people post to you if you take this over to the forum "General Questions II." JFO is not visited very often by the folks you need advising you.

Hang in there, Genie. We're all sorry you're here, but you've come to the right place for finding a support group and information on how to save your marriage.

--------------------
Hook 'em Horns! National Champs 2006.

How To Organize A Marital Recovery Plan
Spying 101
Exposure 101"

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HurtingDeeply
Member


Reged: 10/20/00
Posts: 1046
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3034840 - 06/09/06 09:52 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



genie,

I would order "Love Busters" too. If he's saying the old "I love you but am not in love with you line" it's usually an indication that you have been draining his love bank with love busters (and you may not have even known it - so don't take this the wrong way).

Like mentioned above, it's a pretty common line and it's often part of the fog of an affair. But both of those books will help you understand more and think about your next steps.

All the best,

-HD

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Lillian77
Member


Reged: 04/27/06
Posts: 32
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: HurtingDeeply]
#3034914 - 06/10/06 02:32 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hi Genie,

How are things going now? Sorry it's taken me a couple days to post again. I'm sorry to hear you don't have friends of family close by that can be there for you right now. Have you been able to at least talk to someone you're close to at home? You will find lots of support here but you'll need all you can get.

Firstly, I just want you to know that the rollercoaster of emotions you are going through is ENTIRELY normal. It took me several MONTHS after finding out about my H's affair to stop feeling like I was constantly mood swinging, and most of those moods were bad. It's a tough road to get over an affair and even harder is your H is sitting on the fence.

I was 'lucky' in the sense that my H had ended the A before I found out and was immediately willing to quit his job and cut all contact with the OW. So I didn't hear a lot of the crap many people here have.But I wonder if I would have had I found out while the A was still going on and he was 'in the fog' as they say, because I've read over and over these lines your H is telling you: 'I"'m confused', 'I need space', 'i love you but i'm not in love with you.' All of these are textbook. All of them have far more to do with his A than his real feelings for you. I doubt he was lying when he said he loved you and you're his best friend. He does; you are. But right now he can't see straight because the A has addled his brains, hormones and common sense.

Obviously no one but you knows your situation or what is best for you but Longhorn makes some good points. If you want to save your marriage there's a very good chance you CAN but you probably do need to think long and hard about whether it's worth the effort given that you've had a troubled marriage from the start and that you're young and have no kids. That said, I also know how impossible it can be to make a clear decision when you're rollercoastering (understandably) through all these awful emotions. I think it makes you temporarily deranged and it's pretty hard to make a rational decision when you feel a bit unhinged. The best you can do right now is try to listen to your intuition and take as good care of yourself as possible right now. And I know even both those things can be really hard at a time like this.

I'm just a few years older than you (31) and we have no kids either. I've had to think long and hard about whether it's worth all this work to save our relationship. Recovering from an affair is incredibly hard and draining. At the moment I feel that the 8 mostly good years we've had together make it at least worth a good shot -- and things are greatly improving for us just lately -- but there are still many days I wonder if we wouldn't be better off cutting our losses and starting over.

That said, for me I can definitely see glimmers of hope that going through this and making it out the other side MAY actually give us a much stronger, happier, healthier relationship, but it's a rough road and the light at the end of the tunnel hasn't fully emerged. And that's WITH my H being fully committed to recovering. If your H isn't it's going to be even rockier. Which again, doesn't mean you can't do it, but it probably ain't gonna be easy.

It worries me that your H said OW gave him the 'courage' to tell you about the A. This suggests a fair amount of emotional involvement. Is there a chance this has been going on longer than he's told you? I still think you need to find out as much as you can about what's really going on. Then, if you do want to try to work it out then it would help to read up on plan A and determine a strategy for dealing with it.

It'll probably be pretty hard for you to resist talking about it as soon as he gets home (I know I couldn't if I were you) but, as you know it will be hard to do this without getting very emotional - it's still so fresh. But you'd do well to try to talk to him as calmly and unaccusingly and lovingly as you can manage.

Sending good luck wishes your way and more big hugs. Please do keep us posted.

L xx

Post Extras:

genie1980
Junior Member


Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 6
Loc: British Columbia, Canada Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: Lillian77]
#3035098 - 06/10/06 03:59 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Hello everyone!

LH Nice to hear from you! Thanks for the tip on getting the thread moved...I've emailed the Administrator to do so for me! I have been asking myself over and over again if I am really, SERIOUSLY willing to "do the heavy lifting" as you put it. I married him because I loved him, but now he's changed in my eyes. Is it worth my time? I just don't know yet...I've got some serious soul searching to do yet.

HD Nice to hear from you too! I will definitely get my hands on a copy of Love Busters...I can tell you with certainty that I was indeed draining his love bank (though this goes both ways). I am curious to learn just what exactly I have/have not been doing to drain his love bank.

Lil, it is so good to hear from you again! Today I am having a rough day...mostly I think because it's the weekend and I truly have nothing to take my mind off of this. I have things planned for myself though, just to get me out of the house!

Thank you...I needed to hear that he most likely meant it when he said that he does love me and I am his best friend. I guess I just need to hear that I might still mean something to him, and I am not just a piece of meat that he's used!

As for listening to my intuition...right now, it's saying "no", but I just bet that in a couple of hours it'll be saying "yes". My gut feeling has changed just as often as my mood this past week! When I think back to what he said to me, "I don't know if I find you attractive, maybe I'm too immature for marriage", I can't help but think that it must really be over. I just don't understand it though; before we were even married, I asked him over and over and over again if he was POSITIVE that he wanted to get married, and he always said "yes". He never said, "yes, but can we put it off for awhile?" or "no, I don't want to get married." I offered him "a way out" MANY TIMES!!! I wonder if these past almost 2 years have been nothing but a lie...

As for it possible going on longer then he's told me, I can't say yes or no for sure. Suffice it to say that it nothing would surprise me anymore. I did ask him, and he denied it, but having been doing some reading on this site, I know that trusting him right now is useless. I'm going to take a guess and say that he's been involved with her longer then he's admitted.

There is one thing that I need absolute clarification on from everyone: if he comes back to me and says that he doesn't want to work things out, does this truly mean it's the end? I mean, you can't save a marriage if both partners aren't willing, right???

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. Please, please keep responding because even though I've been talking to family and friends, none of them have been in the same situation! I need the input from people who have actually been there...

--------------------
Genie1980
----------------------------
BW (me) 26
WH 26
Married 7/17/04; no kids
D-Day 6/04/06

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Longhorn
Member


Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 1242
Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: genie1980]
#3035152 - 06/10/06 07:36 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



You don't need a moderator's help to "move your thread." By that, we mean just to start a new thread on GQII. If you want, you can copy and paste from your thread here. Sorry about the confusion.

--------------------
Hook 'em Horns! National Champs 2006.

How To Organize A Marital Recovery Plan
Spying 101
Exposure 101"

Post Extras:

genie1980
Junior Member


Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 6
Loc: British Columbia, Canada Re: Advice Please Someone! [Re: Longhorn]
#3035239 - 06/10/06 11:22 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Ummm...oh. I am not the brightest crayon when it comes to technology...

I'll do that ASAP!

Thanks LH

Argghhhhhh!!! I am technologically impaired, seriously! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hello all, call me genie. I moved my thread from "Just Found Out" on the advice of a couple of people. As you can tell, I copy & pasted everything! I don't think I did it right, so please excuse the clusterf**k that is my thread!

If it's too difficult to follow here, please go to "Just Found Out" under Infidelity. And as always, any input is appreciated...

Genie, your H having an affair after less than 2 years marriage in the honeymoon period is not a good sign. Why do you want to save this relationship?

Please have a look at the infidelity FAQ's on this site (Linked below in my signature)

Look also at Harleys basic concepts.

Your H has to commit to openness and honeaty, accountibility over his movements, and to making you feel safe in your marriage. If he can't do those things, cut your losses and RUN.

Sorry to be brutally honest here, but your husband is/was back in the place of the EA because he wanted more.

It's most likely a physical affair as well if this is the case.

Ignore all the [censored] he says about not wanting to be married or maybe he was too immature. It's just his cheating heart talking. We call this 'babble' and it goes away once the affair goes away.

Another brutally honest comment: You've only been married two years and this waste of skin already had an affair. Myself and many others would recommend kicking him to the curb and finding a real man. A man worthy of a wife and family.

Think about what you really want, not just what your heart feels. We'll help you out either way.

These past couple of days have been he77. I think I'm realizing that it's over between us. When I look back, things never were very good; I just wish WH had said SOMETHING before we were married! After all, I asked him again and again if he still wanted to get married, and the answer was always "yes".

Having said that, I would still fight to make it work , if I knew that I could. I am meeting with him tonight to "talk" and I'm guessing this is where he'll back out. I suppose it's time for me to move on to the next stage of my life; still I never thought that my life may not include him!

There are so many questions that I think are going to be left unanswered; the most confusing of which is "what went wrong?" I just did not see this coming, and I still feel as though I've run into a brick wall!

To both BK & SD: It just doesn't seem as easy as "cutting my losses", though that's really what it comes down to. Why do I want to save the marriage? My H is my first love, and I do truly love him. Of course, knowing that he might not feel the same for me anymore hurts more then I could ever have imagined. Really, I can't give a "good" reason as to why I want to save our marriage; perhaps it is because it's still new and I have not made it through the mourning stage yet. Believe me when I say that any glimmer of hope that I had last week has just about faded from sight...

genie,

Keep in mind that this site is about Marriage Building, and I can tell you that when I came here 6 years ago it wasn't nearly as big. There were far fewer posters and most of them were well educated on the Harley methods and concepts. I rarely, if ever, saw posters telling someone to "cut your losses" or "kick him to the curb" after reading just a couple of posts about anyone's situation (unless it involved serious physical or psychological abuse).

If you still love him and want to try and rebuild the marriage that is entirely up to you, but keep in mind that when you post here you will get a huge variety of opinions (some of which are not really of the "marriage builders" othodoxy).

Recovery from an affair is not easy, and it will take an extraordinary amount of work and committment on your part. Only you can know for sure if you really want to do this, and I know that there have been cases where Steve Harley has advocated that marriages that are relatively new (like yours) are much tougher to save, and in some cases should not be saved. That question is really only something you (or with the help of someone like Steve) could answer.

If you still feel strongly that you would like to give it a shot I would recommend giving them a call and setting up an appointment (the counseling link is at the top of the page). You could probably in one session explain your situation to them and they could probably tell you what your best options are. The $185 might seem like a lot, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper than a divorce!

You really won't get much in the way of "real" professional advice here - no matter how well-intentioned it may be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All the best,

-HD

Try to stay calm while you are talking to him, and remember that he is like a drug addict under the influence of their drug of choice.

Don't argue or get angry. Then check back and let us know how it went.

Hello,

Monday afternoon, before I met with WH, I found out that he had indeed gone back to the other city to be with OW. And WOW, did that hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

After our "talk" on Monday, WH is filing for seperation, which I'm sure some of you know is the first step in the divorce process. He told me that he doesn't love me anymore, and quite honestly I think he may be "falling in love" with the OW.

I am still angry and very, very hurt; however, when I asked him "why" again, this is when he told me that he doesn't love me. He said something about me not meeting his "emotional needs" (which I don't disagree with, but that is NOT how he speaks...I am she OW coached him!). I asked him if he thought he was meeting MY emotional needs, and he said "no". And then I looked at him and very calmly asked if he thought that cheating on me was better then trying to talk to me. And again he said "no", so then I asked if he thought we could work things out, and he said "no...we've been seperated already, and I'm unhappy again."

I'm proud that I kept myself so calm; I really wanted to...I don't know...hit him??? So right now, I'm at the point where I do not want to see him at all, and I am just counting down the days until I move. At the same time, I'm trying to heal and let go of my anger.

When I really think about it, I've ignored my intuition previously, because I didn't want to admit that we might just not suit each other. But hindsight is 20/20, right?! I know that I've changed (grown?) as a person, and I really don't think he has. I'm not sure that he every really wanted marriage in the first place. So, I'll let go and learn to be single again! I'm only 26, but the thought of DATING is scary to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'm not even sure I remember what to do!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Does that seem stupid to anyone? I guess I shouldn't worry about it right now...I have WAY to much "me" work to do first! I realize now that I lost a portion of who I was, and I want to get her back. I am strong and I know that with some help, I can make it through this! Oh, and I am SO going to get a tatty of a symbol of strength! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If anyone can tell me just what exactly the divorce process consists of, I'd be happy to know. Can I change back to my maiden name without having to wait for the divorce to be final? That's very important to me right now; I wish to rid myself ASAP of a name that I no longer respect. If anyone knows, please pass along the info...

Wow, the emotional needs thing sounds like someone who has been reading here.

That's an odd combination of thoughts considering Harley himself often recommends not saving a marriage that is both in the early years and without children.

Unless genie lied about:
A. No children
B. Only being married for 2 years
then I don't see what a 'few more posts' would clear up about these two facts.

Nope, not professional advice here. But then again, most the professional advice you get in this world (outside of the Harleys) is only 25% successful. This is written by Harley on this very website. Article Here

SD:

I read that article, and there is NO WAY one can come to the a FACTUAL conclusion that "most professional advice you get in this world (outside of the Harleys) is only 25% successful"...he is quoting one study, and who knows how much validity that study may even have. I am not condeming or lauding the Harley's, but a statement as you made above is wholly inaccurate. In my duties as an academic physician, I get the dis/pleasure of reading manuscripts submitted for publication, and a LARGE majority of what I review is loaded with error (methodically, statistically, and conceptually)...so I am very skeptical of statistical claims thrown around with such conviction. You should be also.

Just some food for thought.

Lem

I knew that when I linked it, Lem. The point was not to prove with fact, but to show that I am not the only one who found the professional field of marriage counseling to be disappointing and rather unsuccessful (when dealing with affairs).

Ohhhhh..well, then you and I should have a beer then. Marriage Counseling probably needs professional legislating,licensing, credentialing, etc.. I don't necessarily agree with all of the view points of this site...but I think one would be hard pressed to find another source with such a foundation of knowledge regarding infidelity.

It is all so "scripted" that you wonder why more counselors don't "get it". Even a moron like me can catch on after a few thousand posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Lem

believer: yeah, that's what I was thinking too! I guarantee you that the OW was feeding him crap to say to me. I appreciate that he couldn't even tell me in his own words what he was thinking!

Sundog: I was not lying about no children & married for just under 2 years...no point in coming to a forum such as this if I'm not going to be honest!

I am working on "cutting my losses" so to speak, but it's not going to be that simple! I am still very angry and hurt, and I know that I have to work through those feelings before I can even begin to move on. I am survivng though...counting down the days until I can move away from here! (Only twelve more days to go...)