The "how long?" thread by airheart was really depressing. Does it seem to anyone else that we only hear about the good marriages from the betrayed spouses? <P>Maybe the betrayers who fall back in love with their spouses no longer have a need for support and so disappear. <P>But don't you ever wonder what the silent partners would say? I really don't want to offend anyone here. But where are the former betrayers who are happy?

Hi there<BR>Although I do not fit the criteria, I am a betrayed, not a betrayer, I wanted to answer.<P>I know that things are seeming bleak on this site. I am not sure why. Maybe becasue like you said, the success stories do not stick around much. Well, my H and I are a success story! See my post, anniversary of D-day, and read my personal info.<P>My H never posted here, although we used Harley in counseling and he liked the books. Remember, most of us here are the betrayed. I imagine the bertayers feel like te sinners waiting to be stoned to death here. <P>We have made it one year and are doing very well. Our whole marriage has changed and it is wonderful. I still read and post here often, so success storied do exist<P>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P>

HEY! Did you see my thread about falling in love with my H????? <P>I'm happy, I'm HAPPY One for each kid of ours!!<P>I'm not going anywhere, either!<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Annie - I've had this awful feeling the last few days that it doesn't happen often. This is a result of our last couples session and then my W making noises about splitting. I know she's had no real interest in me sexually for over a year. (We still make love now and then, but it's a bored [censored], if you'll excuse the expression!) It IS because of the OM and it doesn't sound like she has any intention of either confessing to her affair or wanting to get back her desire for me. So, no. In my own case, at least, I don't see this happening. And even (I hate to say this) in the "success" stories I've read on this forum, it doesn't sound like this is what really has happened. I think what happens when a cheater gives up his or her affair, is that they decide, for whatever reason, that the marriage is more important and that they do have to make that decision. I suspect, though, that even when this happens and the cheater gives up the affair in favor of the marriage, that the closeness and trust never really comes back? Just a terrible, awful thought about the true nature of life and reality.<P>--Wex

Wexwill makes a very sad but true commentary. At least I feel the same way. My H is home, but not completely, (if you know what I mean) I am convinced he will never love me the way I want to be loved, or even the way he continues to love Mia. (I'm also sorry to say that I am not sure that what he feels for her is "genuine" love, not fantasy) So, even if their affair is over, because Mia forced the ending, i will never trust my H completely nor love him the way I used to. I honestly doubt with the betrayal to us that that is humanly possible. Forgiveness - well, to an extent, but NEVER will I forget.

People don't change unless they perceive they have to. If you look at most "betrayers" (I prefer the more descriptive "selfish lying cheating bums"), they really have the best of both worlds. They can play bedroom with their new lover, meanwhile we follow them around promising to kiss butt forever and do everything to make them happy. Why in the heck should they change? They are being rewarded for their ignorant, abusive behavior at every turn.<P>It's like a drunk driver. Most don't quit doing it until they get busted and loose their license for a while. Then reality sets in a bit better. If they got a $1000 "award" every time they got caught, they'd be drinking it up and driving around looking for Check Stops every night. Here's my advice: If they get away with it once, they will do it again. And if they perceive that somehow they got the upper hand in the relationship by doing it, they will do it every time they get mad at you.<P>So do the right thing. Move to plan B. Kick the scum bucket out of the house. Cut off the kids, the money and the car, until the lawyers tell you otherwise. Tell absolutely everyone everything you know. And make sure they know they ain't even talking to you without a lawyer until they GROW THE H$%L UP!!!<P>If you check out www.divorceinfo.com, you'll find a lot of different advice about it. The most interesting thing is that sooner or later, almost everyone who starts a divorce regrets it later, usually sometime after it's final. Well, why would they figure it out any faster with us running around kissing butt every time we get a chance? It's not until you stop that your cheating bum is going to reflect on what they might be loosing.<P>I'm convinced "Plan A" can't and does not work. All it does it give the stupid dummy 6 months of absolute happiness, 2 lovers, every need satisfied, etc., etc. There's no way anyone dumb enough to cheat is going to be smart enough to figure out what made them feel how, and when. The lover will get the credit and their relationship will just be that much stronger when you move to Plan B. I say start in Plan B.<P>If you're lover says its over, put what ever you have in your hands down, grab your coat, and move on. Be a gentleman, (or lady, as the case may be), and end it. Save some face. Quit the begging and crying. First, it won't have the desired effect. If anything, they will enjoy all the attention. Second, you deserve better than that. If they change their mind they will know how to find you.<P>Wow, did I every get off topic. I guess my point is I believe there are few betrayers who are happy to be back. I believe they are happiest when they have the best of both worlds.<BR>

I sense that most of you are down on the whole success story BS. Am I right? You can justify it to yourselves and think that happiness cannot come the second time around, right? Having that attitute, I can assure you, will not bring you happiness. The ONLY thing that will is deciding for yourself that you want to and deserve to be happy.<P>From my point of view, I saw this tragedy as a period of self growth. It is OK and good to wallow around in your own self pity for a while and wonder "why me", but sooner or later, that gets old. For me it was sooner, rather than later.<P>Wex., I have to say, that I agree with part of what you said. You said that the trust and closeness never come back. Well, yes and no. The blind trust we all had when we got married is not there. And it is so blind. The trust of..."I can ignore your needs, let you go away on a business trip and know you'll be a good boy/girl". For real, didn't we all have that? Think about it, that is why this affair thing knocks our socks off....we NEVER thought OUR spouses could do THAT to US!<P>well, it happened, like it or lump it. And now it is OUR (both of the spouses) job to figure out #1, why it happened, and #2, how to prevent it from happening again.<P>I suspect why so many marriages fail is the tail tucked between the legs, with a big apology, and the spouse saying, OK, I forgive you..."just don't do it again", and noone really processes anything. It hurts, but we think we have fixed it.<P>Well, it ain't fixed! If there was no processing, no getting to the root of it...no behavior change, then there will be no success.I might be rambling a bit here, but I do think you all are underestimating the power of change.<P>I remember my mother telling me for years and years that people don't change. I told this to Steve Harley and he called me on it. He bet me that I had changed from when I was 21. I basically said no, I was the same person. Well, the short of it is that people change when the old ways of interaction are no longer working. All of our marriages are no longer working, so that is why we need new behavior. We have to change, it is imperative if there is to be any difference at all.<P><BR>If we all were to be divorced, remarried, don't fool yourself into believing that it would not happen with your new spouse. The same patterns would indeed repeat themselves UNLESS we change our behavior.<P>I will end for now, but hey...ya all, lighten up. Happiness is there, for all of you. Seek it out.....it is YOURS to be had.<P><BR>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sally (edited October 02, 1999).]

Hi Folks,<P>I'm squarely in Sally's camp here. Although our marriage isn't perfect yet, my wife is extremely happy that she's back. The one think you need to remember that this progress takes time. It's been 15 months or so, and we're about 90% there. And considering our during our marriage I think we were never better than 70%, we've come a long way.<P>You must change your behavior. That's part of the design of Plan A---you've got to change your behavior. And it's very possible. And it does make a difference. While the affair is ongoing, you won't see any clear signs, but you will be having an impact on YOUR life and the way your spouse feels about you.<P>Annie, I wish that my wife would come here and post to folks like you, and fc, and others who are struggling. But it's too hard for her to deal with. I think that's a big reason that betrayers "gone straight" don't spend time here crowing about success---it brings up bad memories. In a lot of ways, it's easier to be the betrayed. You're a victim. If you make it through---you're a hero. <P>But the bottom line is saving a troubled marriage takes two people eventually. Wex is right---until your spouse ends the affair, you can only offer hope for them that the marriage will be better. But once you start repairing your marriage together, it will be better. It almost has to be---neither partner will typically want to settle for less. The "blind trust" will be gone, and that's appropriate. What will be in it's place is a trust and love that's based on new behaviors, and it can make the marriage terrific.<BR>

Firstly, I must apologize for ever starting the "how long?" thread. I was (still am) working out my feelings, but it seems that I caused not a little depression and pessimism as a result. I truly apologize to the whole board, and to the betrayed's specifically!!<P>Secondly, this whole process takes TIME! Even with all I said in that thread, I still have hope for my marriage. I still hope that I'll find happiness with my wife. And if I make it, you all will be the first to know. And not only that, but I'll stick around and tell everyone about our success, too.<P>--andy

Guys, guys, guys,<P>Gosh... I've been on your side, as the betrayed and I'm here to tell you THAT IT CAN HAPPEN!<P>I know it doesn't seem like it now... I KNOW!<BR>And also, I did not get "busted" and lose my license to love my H, I WOKE UP and realized what I would be missing! <P>I feel compelled to defend myself and I don't know why, exactly. All I know is I love him. I KNOW HOW MUCH I hurt him. I make no excuses for my behavior, honestly and truly. You never ever heard me say that my a**hole H DROVE me to an affair, you NEVER did. Look back at my posts if you want. I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for what I did, and I make him take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for what he did. Thing is, it took a lot longer for him. He blamed me for his cheating for years. I loved him anyway.<P>Please don't give up hope. I can and does happen...<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Hi annie, et al,<P>Annie, I'll register as a reformed betrayer who is deeeeeelighted to be back. If you don't already know, I had a brief affair last year with someone I found thru internet chat. Suse and I had struggled for years and years and each of us had hung in there. She'd had a protracted affair in the 80s that she never really quite got over. It's hard to forgive someone when they haven't forgiven themselves. Strangely, we couldn't get close until Suse was able to be strong and supportive for me after I imploded.<P>So....can it happen? Oh yah! There are moments when Suse and I think we're living a fairy tale. It's really nice. What a difference a change of attitude makes. We both accept and appreciate each other like never before.

DMac & Suse -- you guys are great, and of course I know your whole story!!! It's just that you seem to be the exception rather than the rule around here. Maybe because you were both betrayers and betrayed you are able to have an equal voice here. <P>Airheart -- I have no problem with your post. It was honest and I realize this is what you have to struggle through. I just wish there were more betrayers out here who have been down the road to recovery and can tell us its worth the journey. <P>new_beginning I will definitely check out your other post. Thanks!

Annie,<P>I've seen you post a bunch of times here and my heart goes out to you. I am the betrayed and am not completely out of the woods yet but I think I can give you some hope.<P>My wife kicked me out of the house one year ago. She was SKY HIGH on a neighbor. They planned to marry. She told me she was NEVER in love with me, wouldn't want to be married to me even if OM was gone... She carried on a very visible and open relationship for a couple of months. I have frankly, never seen her so happy.<P>Well, the bubble burst for her over the past year. OM didn't leave his wife and affair ended after a couple of months (they had been friends for three years before affair so there was a lot of history). She has kept a "friendship" with OM since physical affair ended. However, we have made slow progress over the past nine months and I can honestly say that we have never been better. I can't believe all that God has done in this time.<P>What would I suggest to you? PRAY, PRAY, PRAY. Pray that God would judge the affair in His mercy (pray for his corrective discipline on your spouse). Take care of yourself and don't show weakness to your spouse. Go on anti-deps if you need something to steady you.<P>God bless you Annie. I wish I couldn't understand your pain but I think I can.<P>Stuggling<BR>

My H (betrayer) doesn't post so I guess I'll respond to this.<P>My H started an affair in 1/99 for 2 months. Although it was brief, it was devastating for me & family. It ended upon exposure and we decided to give our marriage another chance.<P>I didn't know if things could even get better because my H was going through some weird depression stages which lasted months! It made me crazy and confused and sometimes I just wanted out of the marriage. However, the depression subsided and things have been very good for the last 2-1/2 months.<P>H seems to be extremely happy & content and I am happy too. However, TIME and my H's compassion & understanding has been a factor here. I still have my ups & down days because of the memories and pain from all of this. But, I think that our marriage will be almost like it was before all the craziness began.<P>My H had to hit almost rock-bottom to realize what he was going to lose. He still struggles with the guilt, embarrassment and shame from his bad judgment (affair). He realizes that he has to live with this for the rest of his life. But, he does know that our marriage can survive this and he has learned what it takes to have a good and successful marriage. We've both learned a lot from this, although it has been heart-breaking.<P>I guess all I have to say is that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Hi, all,<P>Couldn't let this one go by! <P>Nonplussed, I have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said. As the old saying goes, "nothing succeeds like success". Sally, I'm with K - great post.<P>There is a lot to be said for choosing to approach your own personal marital disaster with as much optimism and pro-active zeal as you can muster. Educate yourself. Seek appropriate help. It doesn't *guarantee* success, but it tips the odds more in your favor. You have to decide not to wallow in victim-mentality, and get about the business of CHOOSING to repair your marriage - that's where honoring your wedding vows comes in (this goes for betrayed & betrayer alike). Often, it doesn't 'feel' good to make this choice. <P>IMHO, this is the only way to go. 'Course, I know as well as anybody that that's easier said than done, and it ultimately takes two to do it. In the swirl of pain & confusion, the right choices aren't often very obvious. In my case (as a betrayer), I just figured I had an obligation to the institution of my marriage ("when in doubt, go with The Right Thing To Do" ). So we started counseling, at my behest. As stupidly as I was behaving, at least I did SOMETHING right !<P>You know, some of any success story has to be attributed to pure dumb luck. At various times: my OM wouldn't leave his W; our counselor was good; later, our kids helped stick us together; I gradually stumbled into a lot of the answers for my own affair; Dunc's OW was *not* a Fatal Attraction type (she let it go)(AND she lives on the opposite coast! ); my own experience as a betrayer gave me the knowledge to deal with Dunc's affair (yah, we see the irony in that! ) ....thank God, thank God, thank God. But there are definitely things that you can *choose* to do to tip the scales more in your favor.<P>Am I happy?? Ecstatic. Not a day goes by that I don't marvel at my good fortune in keeping my marriage to Dunc. It was reeeeal hard, a reeeeal lot. There were many times when one or the other of us was ready to throw in the towel. But for one reason or another, we didn't. I am so grateful!! I know that we have something we've never had before, and our shared history of struggle IS a part of that - we are survivors - we both know we're here because we *want* to be, we both know how much we've learned about ourselves, each other, and our relationship. There is a depth of acceptance and trust that is new and very powerful.<P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>