Here is my dilema. I want to plan B my FWW. Not because she is still in an A but to protect what love I have left for her.

She has really made me doubt everything but quite frankly plan A has only made her life better.

There have been three years of lies and she continues to cause more damage to our M. She wants to sweep it under the rug. Discussion of the A is not allowed.

My situation is this Based on the fact we have two children I cannot move out. If I do I will hurt myself in a custody hearing. I cannot leave until custody has been decided.

I would have to basically start the D proceeding with my FWW before I could move out. I stand to get as much as 90% custody of my boys based on her past behavior. The A, Alcoholism and domestic violence just to name some of the reasons for this.

I am tired now of waiting for her to "want to change". I have tried everything but to no avail.

I would like to plan B her soon but I don't know how effective it will be if I have to stay.

My only other recourse is a D.

Oh, ((((Hurtingless))))- I don't think so, I've often wondered that myself. I think the whole purpose is to not have contact with WS during Plan B. How would you do this if you are resdiing in the same house together?

I hope someone else can offer a better answer than I can! I wish you the best!

((((HUGS))))

Great.

I am writing the letter now.

I just feel like I have nothing left to give.

I am going to hold onto it and give it to her on our anniversary if I still feel this way.

Today's my sons B Day and I just found out 3 weeks ago about the SF on that day. I just feel so resentful she has lied to me for so long and now I feel like I did this time two years ago and this time one year ago. Sure my anniversary is going to be worse since she told me it happened that day too three weeks ago.

I'm so sorry that this fresh information is causing you additional pain! I don't have any answers, I can only offer my support and comfort. Please keep this in mind! this is new information to you, of course the pain is going to be fresh for you! Had your W told you this information when the A was discovered you would have been over the hill! You have made it this far, don't you think you can overcome this hill too? It's your decision but you've been so strong until now! I expected that from FWH. I expected him to be with OW for my B-day and Anniv. Did you not think back to those times and wonder the worst?

I did think back and wonder the worst. Problem is that I asked her point blank if she did and she said no for three years.

She was so unremorsefull when she admitted it I almost walked out that day.

Here is a sample of the dialog.

Did you sleep with him on our sons b day.

Yes. Next question.

Did you sleep with him on our anniversary.

Yes. Are you happy now.

The other problem with this is that she let me work on issues that really weren't the issue.

The whole reason she lied is because she wanted to move back to NY and I didn't. Her main argument for moving back was her friends and family. The more time she admitted to spending with him the less she spent with her friends and family. She basically needed to lie so she could protect her argument for moving back to NY.

Not only that but I would have gone about things a lot differently if she was honest. Maybe not a D but certainly differently. Now she benefits from her lies.

Looking back she has never really seemed remorseful always pointing the finger somewhere else.

She pointed it at me and for 13 months I tormented my self thinking what I could have done to stop it. The answer was nothing. She slept with him the first night then came up with the justifications later.

13 months she kept up with this charade to protect her image.

So now I am hurting again and she thinks it is just something I should get over.

With that said, I think you need to make some decisions, and do what you need to do. I really don't see how a Plan B and living in the same house is going to make a difference.

I was going to say that she seemed like my H, the more you push for information the more rebellious he get. I have to be patience and let the information or timing should I said come to me. Are you sure that the A is over? So much fog talk, it aslo seems like she was trying to protect you from some of this, in a way! Crazy, I know! Could this be in some form a result of the drinking problem you mentioned?

Did you write your plan B letter and how are you going to pull it off? Hurting, I hope and pray that you are satified knowing you have done all that you can to this point!

HL,

I feel for you - really I do.

As you know, I was away this past weekend with my H.
It was an AA round-up (conference) and chocked full of great AA info and living examples of the program.

Something I heard during one man's talk was this:

"The master points to the moon...and all the idiot sees is his finger."

This statement seems to fit your W to a tee.

I'm not saying she's an idiot or a fool - but that you keep trying to point out issues, and all she see's is your finger pointing straight at her - instead of the issue you're trying to present.

It hurts to keep beating your head against a brick wall, and now it sounds like you've decided to stop...this is a GOOD thing, but is plan B or a D really the best 'next step' you can take?

Here's a question for you...

Do you love her more than she's hurt you?

If you do, I have an idea - it worked for my H and I, and may help you and your W make some progress.

Let me know if you'd like to hear it, and I'll check with you tomorrow night after I get my kids to bed.

Take care.

-BUMP-

You have tried everything to no avail because you cannot fix this.

Only your W can fix this. And she will only have the desire to to fix this once she hits rock bottom. She`s not at rock bottom now.

Have you spoken with a lawyer? Are the domestic abuse and alcoholism on record?

Is it not possible that you move out and take the kids or change the locks on the front door?

These options are drastic I know but you are in a drastic situation.

Plan A and Plan B don`t work with substance abusers. Nothing would make a substance abuser happier than to be Plan A`d (with of course the possible exception of being Plan B`d while still living with their spouse, if you are in Plan B you`re not going to bug her to address her issues)

You are her crutch right now. You are holding the family together and you are keeping it running.

You are going to have to rip that safety net right out from under her otherwise she has no incentive to change. And even then....losing her family may not be enough of a rock bottom for her. That happens sometimes. But if that happens in your case at least you will have removed yourself and your children from the insanity.

Nothing is going to change until YOU set the boundary that you and your children will not live like this anymore. This is not a threat...it must be a FACT!!! The ball will then be in her court to either get help or get out.

If you love your W and want her to get help and get better you are going to have to employ some tough love here.

To answer your original query....no you cannot Plan B while living with your spouse.

Needing,

She is not still in the A. That I know. I was lucky in that she chose to do this while on vacation for 6 weeks. About two weeks after coming home she ended it because it was farily evident that there was no way to continue.

I think part of it was he shattered her fantasy. You see my wife wanted to be in NY and he asked her to move to Las Vegas because he hated NY. No need replacing me with someone that is not going to stay where she wants to live.

Not only that the guy is a real loser. He was 32 putting in fences for a living. He could not support her lifestyle that is why I paid for most of their dates(unknowingly of course). He could also not afford to fly out here to see her and she knew she wasn't going back anytime soon.

With that being said she knew she wasn't protecting me. I had a lot of information from my family and my kids. My aunt, uncle and cousing witnessed a lot of what she did as did my children. Over the last 3 years my children have inadvertently let things slip. IE the trip to the amusement park 9 months after D Day.

From that point on I knew her story had a lot of holes in it. Everytime something new came out I let her know that this M was never going to move forward until the truth came out.

The real reason she wouldn't tell me is because from the start of this I asked her how she could put me through the ringer for the last three years about moving back to NY. She spent a bunch of time with him instead of her family and friends. If she spent a lot of time with him then it would be hard for her to keep telling me how important these people were to her. Well three years later after saying she barely spent any time with him it turns out it was a majority of her time. So in order to protect her one and only arguement for moving the family 3,000 miles she lied.

I don't think you can really say that waiting 3 years is pushing someone.

Banyak,

Yes all she sees is the finger and not the moon.

Yesterday was a really bad day for me. My son's birthday. She knew what was bothering me but avoided it all together.

At dinner my Son started going over all of his birthdays and he said, "The only year I didn't have a good birthday party was the year we went back to NY" I completely forgot about the fact he didn't get a birthday party that year because she had to go back for her friends wedding.

Last night she came out and asked if I wanted to talk. I said no because I knew what the conclusion would be and her mom is coming in today. Which of course is the same day as her friends wedding she missed. Which I now know she missed it supposedly because she was too hung over. Needless to say she was hung over because she was out with OM the night before.(Another new detail) She always said he had nothing to do with her missing the wedding.

This morning she comes out and says,"You know there is nothing I can do about the past, I am a different person now." All I could think to myself is that she isn't a different person.

The fact that she knew that I knew she was lying and is supposedly fine with that decesion makes me really question the type of person she is.

You know in these last 3 years she has never sat down and told me the events. I have had to ask all the right questions. I call them information confirmation sessions. I find the information and she then will confirm them. It took me three years to ask all the right questions. What really bothers me is she swore on her dead grandmother "who she loves more anything" that she was being honest.

I can tell you that her telling me three weeks ago that she didn't lie to me. That she had forgiven herself long ago about what she did. I personally think someone that can say that has a lot of work to do. It would have eaten me up inside seeing her in pain knowing there was more pain coming WHEN she found out the truth.

Now that I sit and reflect about recovery I have to question how long that will take with that kind of attitude. No amends just forgiveness is what it will take to move forward.

This is by the way typical behavior on her part. She makes a "mistake" and never wants anyone to mention it again.

So if you have something for me that might help I would appreciate it.

Banyak
BTW she is stuck on step 3 again. She keeps getting "too busy to see her sponsor and work on it.

I have been holding out for steps 4-9 but at this rate it will take her 4 years to finish the steps.

I thank you both for your input it is truly appreciated.

HL,

Can you tell me why it is that kids under 10 rarely ever go to bed and STAY there on the first try?!? (LOL)

Ah well - they're asleep now, so let's get into this thing shall we?

Believe it or not, I still see recovery as a possibility for you and your wife - and I get the impression that you do as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's also clear that you are no longer willing to live the way you have been for the past 3 years, however, how far are you able and willing to go to influence change?

Dealing with an A is one thing...and dealing with alcoholic recovery is another. The worst thing about the whole mess is that the recomendations for each are contradictory. I don't envy your position of having to find that fine line between the two and walk it every day.

My H wasn't an active alcoholic when he had his A - however he was incapable of being honest about it at the time.
I knew he was lying when I confronted him about it...and like your W, he knew that I knew he was lying.

I know my husband is a concrete thinker - he doesn't deal in 'gray areas' so I knew my solution to the problem had to be black and white.

I asked him to leave, and not come back until he was prepared to be honest with me. He did.

It was less than a week before he came back home, but when he did, everything he said to me was truthful. He didn't tell me all the details (lies of omission?) but it was a start.

We went through a about a year and a half of tough crap - we didn't know how to talk to eachother, he didn't know how to accept responsibility, and I didn't know how to forgive, but we stuck it out and learned how to do all of those together. It was about 3 years before things started getting better.

He often told me to 'just get over it already', constantly reminding me that the past was the past and couldn't be changed. I couldn't accept that and he couldn't understand why.

We didn't start getting past that stumbling block until one of those grueling 3:00am all out war, knock em out, drag em out fights. At the end of that one we finally agreed to disagree.

He wanted me to get over it, so I agreed that I would - IF he would allow me to do so my way, in my time...WITH his help.

From there we set down some rules (POJA). We weren't allowed to judge eachother's feelings. We didn't have to agree with them, but we did have to accept them.

I needed him to account for all his time - and always be reachable. This need faded over time, but is still in place today for those times when old triggers make me insecure.

When I had questions that needed answers I could ask them, but I wasn't allowed to beat him over the head with his answers. He in turn would allow me the time and space to deal with whatever feelings resulted.

The bottom line is that we didn't begin a true A recovery until we set down some guidelines for HOW we were going to recover, and made sure that plan allowed us to respect each other in the process.

IMO, you and your wife have not begun a 'true' recovery. You've been 'white knuckling' it alone for 3 years. It really is time for some tough love.

In your shoes I would tell your W something like this.

W - I love you, and I love our family. I want to make this work, but I can't do that without your help. Over the past 3 years you haven't seemed willing to do that, and I'm starting to think you never will. If that's the case I don't see how our marriage can survive, because I can't get past this alone. If you want out then I need you to tell me that's what you want and we'll take it from there.
If you don't, then I need you to work with me on recovery. ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT?

If the answer is yes then I'd suggest that each of you (I know she won't like this - but don't budge on it) fill out the emotional needs questionaire.
Read them, talk about them, and make some changes to accomodate them.

Then set up a POJA and stick to it.

If she doesn't want to end the marriage, but isn't willing to do those things or something similar, it may be time to ask her to leave until she is.

Spending some time apart doesn't mean the marriage is over - it's simply a reflection of the fact that you each want to recover, but don't agree with each other's methods. It's come to the point where the current situation is doing more damage than good to everyone. Giving each other time and space to recover the way you need to for a time might bring you closer to a point where you can compromise.

If having her leave isn't possible then find a way to put some distance between you at home.

Either way some boundaries are necessary. You don't have to accept her insensitive behavior.

Gosh - I'm writing a novel here aren't I? Please forgive me - I'll try to keep the next bit shorter.

You've said your wife is 'stalled out' on step 3.
I have to agree with Daisy in that you can't fix that one.

Step 3 is simple, but not easy. It states that the alcoholic 'made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him'.

This means that she has to stop acting on or imposing HER will, and accept that of her higher power. She has to give up control. Tall order for anyone. There is a prayer in the Big Book for step 3...

"God, I offer myself to Thee - to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power. Thy Love, and Thy way of life. May I do Thy will always!"

This is a terribly important step as it lays the groundwork for the alcoholic to be willing to do what's required in steps 4-9.

You can't impose this step on anyone - the best you can do is provide a SAFE, SUPPORTIVE enviornment for them so they don't fear reprocussions over what's to come next.

Perhaps the next time you have a serious conversation with your W you can reiterate that you care about and support her recovery. Try to let her know you have no intention of 'taking her inventory' for her, or judging in any way her methods while doing the steps. That way you can keep her alcoholic recovery separate from the A recovery.

BTW, none of the above means that you have to accept any bull crap about AA or allow her to twist AA principals to her own benefit.

Safe and supportive on one hand, tough love boundaries on the other.

It's a lot to ask of yourself, but it is possible if you can learn to detatch and take care of yourself and the boys in the process.

Ok, enough info for one post...

Take care HL.

I did plan B while living in the same house - I couldn't move out - so I stayed. Exposed to all - his family mine his bosses anyone who I could. I even called to tasks all those who knew and supported him, outed them to their spouses and churches as marriage destroyers and hypocrites. That used up some misery generated energy! Acted toward him as if he was a stranger. Discussed nothing with him - slept separately, built a life socially without him. Confronted his family about his behaviour and their insolence to support his A while they were Church elders. Confronted the OW and told her it was over, told her I would be contacting her husband - I had been doing plan A for two years - he just lapped it up and carried on being cruel, lying and having a new EA. So I plan B'd him at home. Used the 180 to structure it.

You do what you have to do how you have to do it. We can't all be text book, but we can all do our version. Withdrawing in plain sight is pretty effective.

SP

hurting less- What happend. You were enjoying happy the other day and now, you are a mess. I can understadnhow you are feeling. I am glad you are making a move in this direction. I think that you will be better off for it. You have been miserable. She is enjoying it. MAybe what silverpool above suggested, you should do.

<Hate the threadjack you, but WH and I have been doing great this Weekend. WAT think that I should confront the OWH after I think the affair has been over for six months. What are your thoughts>

Hope the plan B works, if not are you ready for the D?

I hope that this gives you a lot of options and helps with the situation! Banyak seems to be able to relate a world better than I can.

(((Hurtingless)))

Thank you everyone.

CFC
Thank you for your input.

Let me tell you why I am feeling this way now. I now realize that over the last three years now that I know the truth the way that I would have done things would have been much different.

I now realize that many of the "ISSUES" we discussed were nothing more then BS and she spent more time protecting herself then worrying about me.

I now look back on the last three years and don't see a remorseful person in the least bit.

Let me tell you what is bothering me the most right now. When my FWW came back from NY she had a picture hanging on the refrigerator from her trip. The picture was of her and my son on his birthday. When I found out about what happened I asked her to please take the picture down. I asked her to get rid of all memories and momentos of that trip. I didn't need those reminders or triggers.

When I asked her to take the picture of her and my son down she refused. At some point I found out she was with OM the next night she still refused. Her words were "I like this picture of us and it is not like I was with him that night what type of person do you think I am?"

Three weeks ago I found out she was with him that night right after that party. So now I wonder how a person that is supposed to be remorseful could look at that picture and not be disgusted with themselves for what they did right after that party.

I know if she would have been honest with me in the beginning that picture would not have stayed on my refrigerator. To me it seems like she was saying FU to me.

That is just one example of something that certainly would have been different. If she insisted on keeping that picture up I would have gotten a D the next day.

Monday was my Son's B Day and while at dinner he started talking about all of his B Day parties. He said "you know the only year I didn't get a B Day party was when we went back to NY."

Now in our last conversation she said "You know the reason none of this is important to me is I have forgiven myself long ago." I am sorry but to me that means she was fine with the pain her lying caused me. It means she has no problem looking me in the eye lying then feeling ok about it.

I am fine with myself but with the M not anymore.

I know I cannot change the past but I can learn from it. I have learned that my wife feels like she was entitled to do what she did. She really doesn't have the ability to empathize with someone. She makes bad decesions and won't discuss them or how her decesions effect others.

The way I have dealt with this issue has been solely based on the information she gave me which was lies.

I now realize she lied to protect her one and only reason for moving back to NY. Which was she wanted to be around her friends and family because they were so important to her. It was one of the first questions that came to mind when I found out about the A.

Now that the truth has finally come out I know I would not have been so accepting to take her back or work it out unless I saw her work harder then she did.

Now her belief is that it is in the past and I should be over it again. Hard to be over something you just discovered three weeks ago.

Finally she woke up on Monday morning and explained to me that "These things happened a long time ago and she is a different person" I guess all of the things that have happend recently don't count.

I now realize that the road to recovery with her is going to be very long and quite frankly I don't think I have it in me.


Oh and in my state there are two types of marriages long term and short term. In a long term M my FWW would be entitled to alimony for as long as she remains single. In a short term M they get it for about half the duration of the M. Long term is 10 years. This month is our 9th anniversary. Oh and by the way she admitted three weeks ago she took him to dinner, I paid, and slept with him then too.
So I know one year is not enough and since it may not work why should I put myself in the position to support her for the rest of her life.

If we get a D she will move back east in about 8 years. She will not get remarried here. So basically I pay for her to stay here. I crunched the numbers and she would get about 50k to 80k extra for me trying to work this mess out. She is in a no lose situation.

"Have you spoken with a lawyer? Are the domestic abuse and alcoholism on record?"

"Yes I have spoken with and attorney. Yes the domestic abuse is on the record and yes so is the alcoholism." So is the fist fight she had with my Aunt when she confronted my FWW because she wasn't going to watch my kids while my wife went out with OM.

I do not need to move out. Because of the custody situation I could get a temporary injunction(I think it is called) to keep her out.

I have been documenting everything.

I hear what you are saying about rock bottom with her.

Unfortunately before the last set of information came out. I agreed to pay for her mom to come out this summer and stay with us. Another decesion that certainly would not have been made of radical honesty was in place.

Right now I am pretty much ignoring her because I am hurting so much about these things. I am ready to give her the letter on the 20th of this month because that is our wedding aniversary that she decided wasn't that important to her three years ago.

I am going to think long and hard about this because tough love with her doesn't work. I know she needs help but she tells me I need help. LOL. She thinks she is fine and if I just don't look at the past things will be great in the future.

DO YOU FEEL THAT SOME OF YOUR ACTIONS COULD BE STOOPING TO HER LEVEL? (Sorry about the caps!) In regards to giving her the letter on your anniversary? I'm not saying you are, I just want to make sure that you don't do something you might regret later on down the line! I mean she has caused you pain, yes, but two rights don't make a wrong!! I know you are tired of the whole ordeal, but one thing you had to of learned is how to be the better person.

I've learned that from my MIL of all people! No matter how hard it may be snooping to a lower level will only cause you addidtional pain and hurt in the future.

If you feel that you are doing the right thing, then by all means please ingore my concerns! I'm still pulling for you, somewhere inside your heart, you have to love her! She gave you two amazing creatures who question the obvious! There was a time when the two of you loved each other more than anything! Can you recall that time?

I'm not trying, by any means, to confuse you! I just remember the hate, no matter I felt even before D-day, and I'm just worried for you!

Yes I would be stooping to her level.
Now that you point that out I will not do it. LOL
God you people sometimes are so annoying when you are right. LOL
Stupid moments of clarity.

To be quite frank with you I am having a hard time remembering loving each other more then anything. I think this may be one of the problems. Our MC told me after the A. Have you ever thought this relationship means more to you then it does to her? Dang stupid question made me think. Head almost exploded.

I really think my wife is broken. She has a lot of unresolved issues that remain unresolved. I just wrote that she is PA, in AA and a victim of child molestation that was never addressed.

Our second MC decided against seeing us and just focusing on her issues. The child molestation part. She stopped going.

I love her but geez she is making this much harder then it should be. I am a very loving, forgiving person but so far she has given me very little to love these last 3 years and even more to forgive her for.

I don't know what I am going to do. I am confused but now because of you I know I am not going to give her the letter on our anniversary.

Thanks.

Internet's up at home great!

well, now that you've come to your senses!LOL Do you think that sleeping on the sofa is in the best interest for your M? Do you think that you can put all of your pain and suffering on the side? Are you spending at least 15 hours a week together (not talking about the relationship)? See if you can get back in focus of why you love her! I understand that you are not strictly dealing with A issues which make it harder for you to focus on the love that you once had for each other, but you seem like a compassionate person.

Had you sat down and made a list of why you should stay in the M and why you shouldn't? My SD in my eyes should have been in AA, and I too am a victim of molestation! I can understand the issues that she maybe going though on the latter more than some. As a child I went to GC, IC, and Mother and DC, but I told them what they wanted to hear to get out of it. I felt, even at nine, that I was well equip to handle it on my own. LOL I guess I didn't turn out so bad! LOL I wrote in my journel, and H helped alot! No one thought that I would graduate HS, much less go to college, where I earned my BA in Sociology. I worked three jobs during the summer and two during the school year to pay my way! Bad things always happen to good people it's just a matter of how you deal with it! You can carry it on your shoulder or brush it off and hold your head high.

As far as your FWW, it's really up to her but without help, she won't make it! I can tell you that the biggest problem I have is connecting with people (trust issues). No matter what I always feel alone! I'm learning to teach myself that my happiness is my responsible not someone else. Could this be some of the way that she feels? Are you responsible for her happiness and not her? What could you do to teach her that lesson? She's a woman who had to grow up to fast, and didn't learn appropriate coping skills. She missed out on so much, and the only way she thought she could feel loved was by being sexual. It's probably the only way she feels loved by you!

It's not her fault that she thinks that way, she was robbed and doesn't know how to feel loved any other way.

I may be wrong about the whole thing, and by no means am I trying to justify her A/As. This is how I was, looking for love in ALL the wrong places. I wasn't even aware of why I was doing the things that I did back then. I think that comes with self examination, which is a hard task in itself. I've put Hubbie though he)) when we first met, because on me, maybe that's why I'm so willing to stick to him and make things work. You never know someday she may feel the same loyalty to you!

Keep your head up, Hurtingless, you just said a mouth full in your last post!

We actually spend more then 15 hours a week together. Always have.

I sleep on the Sofa because I need the TV to go to sleep and she can't sleep with it on. At times like this my mind is going a mile a minute and TV focus' my attention elsewhere. A mind is a terrible thing!

Now here is where I am. I cannot make her get help. I cannot be responsible for her decesions. She refuses to go to IC and stay committed to it. She is fading on the AA program which I have seen twice before.

I think I came into this relationship as a whole person and she did not.

I feel as though I am responsible for her. I think that is part of the reason I am still with her. It would pain me to hurt her more. She has been hurt a lot already.

I blame her A on lashing out at me to be honest. I would not let her move back to NY. From the time it became an issue she did what she wanted when she wanted and how she wanted. If I ever questioned her or disagreed she would tell me she was giving up enough just because she wasn't in NY. She basically said one time if we would have moved back there none of this would have happened. In other words she was entitled to do anything she wanted because I was the source of her pain. I am sure the other problems helped her come to this conclusion.

Add to that the fact she had all the plastic surgery, new boobs, trimmer thighs tighter butt bigger lips. She was a person of low self esteem that didn't know how to handle the attention.

The problem i have is I am very analytical. I don't even know what problem or problems to address first.

I just know her way of doing it isn't working.

I deleted old letter and wrote a new one. Maybe I will post it to see what you think.

For tonight I am off and going home. Wish me luck got MIL and FWW at home this should be interesting.

Thanks for sticking with me.

BTW I had a big late lunch because she is cooking tonight. LOL