RMFAO! Where's the smoke detector when you need it? Best of luck!

HL - you've done a lot of very hard, painful work. 3 years of working through the details of the affair from 10/03, right?

Are you done? I know you need to know, but are you done? With the A questions? Your WW has certianly made this MUCH harder that it should have been due to her foolish pride and stubbornness. Do you think she might be worn out too? If you're done with the exploration, tell her and try living without it. If you're not, put it on hold for a month or 6 weeks - tell her you're doing this - and see what it's like to live without the A grinding between you.

SUCH a long time to hurt... Per your previous sig - years of hurt.

BOTH of you might do well to free yourselves of the A. Clearly WW is not going to give you what you want, how you want it. HL you've completely exhausted yourself extracting the details. Is it over?

(BTW - I do not mean to minimize the 'reveal' you got 3 weeks ago from WW OR the triggers you're getting now. That's terrible stuff. My biggie is unprotected sex in our bed while I was in the hospital and kids were in the other room. I trigger on my SON because of intercepted text messages from OM asking about his health, a haircut I got him WW did not like. And more. I trigger on my son like you do on yours. I KNOW how bad this sucks. Geez - I digress. Get to talking about ME and the fingers fly!!)

Is it WW's response to the A that makes you want to leave or is it WW? I can totally see how WW - A or not - could wear you out to the point where you could just not deal with her anymore. Can totally see that. No one would fault you.

What do you like about WW?? Are you in it for the kiddos? If so, OK for now but you need to carry a balance in your love bank! If WW just cannot do that for you then - time to go.

I'm WITH you brother. Trying to offer something up. Wish I could help more. Wish I could carry some of these bricks FOR you. I see you struggling.

MDC- I think you made some great points for hurting to think about! It's really great questions! It's things that I would want someone to ask me! Bravo!

Hurting- I think MDC just gave you alot to contemplate and I look forward to hearing what you have to say! Can you put the exploration on the side and concentrate on a better future? This may be the best thing for your M. Of course, that strictly up to you! What can you live with?

What kind of tough love have you employed?

My H was a substance abuser too. So we had to recover not only from his A`s but also from his substance abuse.

Unfortunately I did not understand that the drug use had to be addressed BEFORE starting on recovering the marriage. H and I wasted a full year between d-day and the day he finally faced his drug problem.

MB does not work with a substance abuser. They must not only stop the substance abuse but also get some form of counselling. Just stopping the substance is not enough. Ever heard the term "dry drunk"? That means a person who although they may not be drinking still has the mindset and patterns of a person who is drinking.

An active substance abuser/dry drunk are unable to do any of the following...

Hold themselves accountable for their own actions. It`s always some else`s fault.

They cannot feel empathy for other people. They are in so much pain themselves... they abuse substances to dull their OWN pain so they cannot be expected to feel the pain of others. Even when they are not actively using their own pain is so great it superceeds the pain of everyone else.

They cannot POJA. They will never able able to negotiate a deal and stick with it. They are the navel of the universe. What you want or need is of no importance to them.

They cannot love you. They certainly NEED you but they cannot love you. There is a BIG difference between loving someone and NEEDING someone. A substance abuser does not love themselves...how can they be expected to give away what they don`t have.

They cannot appreciate your love. No matter what you do for them they feel unworthy. They cannot accept your love. The substance of their choice dulls all feelings, the good and the bad. They use so they don`t feel period.

You need to do address the right issue in the right order here. Your W has to go through alcohol recovery before you can start to work on the M.

I spent YEARS nagging. wheedling and threatening my H. I finally came to the point where I had no love left for him...and this was LONG before d-day. I put up with the drug use for years. The A`s were a different matter. That was the straw that broke the camel`s back.

The A`s were the catalyst we needed to address both the problems in our M and H`s drug use. I set my boundaries. If H wanted to remain married to me he had to recover from the drug use AND recover the M.

And what finally got his attention was seeing my bags packed at the front door. Twice. Tough love.

I did not give a hoot about the financial hardship a separation would have caused. I wanted to stop living with a cheating drug user no matter what the price.

If I were in your shoes I would put WW out of the house (using a legal method) and keep her out until she COMPLETED a recovery program. And even then she would need to prove herself sober for a period of time before I would let her back....then she will be ready to work on the M.

That type of tough love might be the only thing that will work with your W at this point.

MDC,


"are you done? With the A questions"

Yes I am done with the A questions. Just to clarify though they were always the same questions just with different answers.

I do not believe that it was her foolish pride that caused this to happen this way. I really believe at this point she lied or was so stubborn because her actions contridicted what she had been saying about moving to NY. Like I said it is hard to say your family and friends are so important then not spend time with them while you are specifically in NY to see them. Remember before she went on the trip her exact words were "There is nothing that is going to stop me from going to that wedding" Something did and if it did how important was that wedding to her. I know about the fog, excitement etc. but she had to protect that statement.

I have realized that getting past the A is going to be hard work. I also new she needed to start getting help with her Alcholism. I put the MC and the recovery on hold until she stopped drinking. She stopped on 1.1.06. So now I thought we might start working on our M.

"Is it WW's response to the A that makes you want to leave or is it WW? I can totally see how WW - A or not - could wear you out to the point where you could just not deal with her anymore. Can totally see that. No one would fault you."

It is both at this point. I have two simple rules for my FWW. Treat me the way you would like to be treated. Expect me to react to a situation the way you would react to a situation. She has not treated me the way she would want to be treated and she finds fault in my reactions when I react the same way she would.

For example my FWW was a big flirt. I didn't think she would want to be treated that way. When I got angry with her she expected me not to get mad. One night we went out and I made the mistake of flirting. (heck she had told me it was no big deal when she did it.) She got angry with me. She stopped the night right in their tracks and demanded that I take her home. A few weeks later she did it again no big deal and I had no right to get mad at her. That does not meat my two requirements. This is only one example there are plenty.

You are absolutly right about the love bank. I have said this before but I cracked open the old LB and found a whole bunch of IOU's. She will never admit that her actions have caused problems.

At this point the kids are big enough to not worry as much about a D. But in the beginning I was there so I could try to work it out for them.

Needing,

Thank you for checking in!

Daisy,

Yes I realize the addiction problem and that is why I waited until she was ready to get sober before moving forward with trying to save our M.

I am gaurdedly optomistic that she will stay sober this time.


Now on to yesterday. She emailed me and then called me after work.

I have been withdrawn because of all of these triggers and the new reveal.

I did not really want to talk about it because I am a logical person and new it would do no good.

On the way home she called and asked if we were ok. I said I am ok with me but the M concerns me. Or I am not ok with the state of the M right now.

She asked what was wrong, but before I could say anything she said "I am not going to talk about the A" I said I don't really want to talk about the A. I want to start discussing the last three years. She said there is nothing to discuss. I said well I really think there is. She TOLD ME there wasn't. I said I really need to understand some of the things you said over this time and I really think you would want to opportunity to know what is bothering me so maybe you could understand my feelings. She said fine what. I brought up the picture she left on the refrigerator and how it made me feel then and especially now. I said you told me that you didn't do anything wrong that night. That really hurts to think you believe that. She started yelling then hung up. I called her back and asked why she hung up. She said because I am not doing THIS anymore. I said what is this discussing my feelings.

The night deteriorated from there. Lots of LBing on both sides.

She said she doesn't understand what she did wrong. I said to her "I now realize that everytime I feel hurt or down you get angry." You don't empathize, you don't listen, you don't pull me closer and tell me how sorry you are. You get angry. It has been like this since day one. I can't remember one time where I tried to tell you what I was going through without this same reaction.

You always find a way to make yourself the victim. Yes after one year he found out I took my kids to an amusement park with the OM. He got mad at me and yelled. I told him I am not talking about it. I am not going to do THIS AGAIN.

Last night she said what is the difference if I did it one time or every day. I said I agree then what is the difference and she said then why do you need to know. I said well I understand what you are saying but if in your mind there really was no difference then why didn't you just tell me the truth. She said I meant what difference does it make now. I said the difference now is you spent three years deceiving me over something you now say makes no difference. If you were a good liar this wouldn't even happen but I cannot look you in the eye and think you love me when you have no problem deceiving me. You let me get hurt over and over again because everyone new the details. There were three occasions that I discovered something from our kids. Then you tell me and I am devesated again. Why not just devastate me once and then move on.

It was messy last night. I stood my ground and became the bad guy. I don't care anymore. If standing my ground makes a better M or no M at all I can live with that.

She called again this morning and I asked her again do you really think you have treated me the way you would want to be treated? She had no answer.

{{{{{{{{Hurting}}}}}}}}

I have seen that performance day in and day out with FWH over the years. It's like he could never just say "ok, I hear where you're coming from, what do we do about it now?" HE}}, a hug would have been better than nothing! He was really like this when he was still having C w/ OW. He always made me feel crazy, like I was the horrible person. It was always my fault, because I didn't do this or I didn't do that! Can you believe it, it was my fault that our friends didn't stop by more often! We would just end up in a big angument! I can really feel for you on this.

I'm afraid someone else mentioned that she hasn't hit rock bottom yet, and I now think that's what it's going to take for her to wake up! When H found out I went to a lawyer, he realized real fast that I wasn't not playing with him, and I could stand on my own two feet with the kids. Of course, I knew what his biggest fear was, what's your W's? Do you know?

Three yeasts, wow! I can understand not wanting to go on anymore! I felt like that so many days until recently.

Well, you definitily have some decisions to make, just keep in mind that you don't need to stoop to a lower level to get things done.

I hope that you have a better afternoon!

Needing,

Thank you

Yes it has been three years and I have been patient.

I would rather her not act concerned and loving then get angry when I tell her my feelings.

Last night I said to her I cannot believe she has lied to me for three years. She said it has not been three years, that she had her A three years ago at this time so how could she be lying for three years. I guess the lying during the A doesn't count. LOL. Didn't even argue the point.

She has not hit rock bottom yet. The problem is for her to hit rock bottom I have to abandon plan A and go into plan be mean to her.

Plan A has actually worked against me. I plan A and work my butt off to make her feel safe and loved. I then want to discuss the situation and I am a liar. I have been acting like I loved her and everything is OK then I RUIN IT by actually wanting to discuss my feelings.

I have found when I am mean to her and LB she turns around. This is crazy if you ask me. The better I treat her to try to move in a positive direction the more resistent she is to move in a positive direction. The worse I treat her the more likely she is to try to change.

I don't get it but what am I to do.

They always say realizing you have a problem is the first step.

You're definitly not dealing with a whole person. You are so right! I can see the self-esteem issues written all over your wife! I understand why the IC wanted to concentrate on the abuse issues, I think alot stems from unresolved childhood issues. How does she feel about herself? I think she has the tendency to project her feeling about herself onto you, and she can't tell the difference.

Well, bubba, you take care of yourself and your kids! That's the only main concern right now! Do wants right for you!

"How does she feel about herself?"

Probably not good. When we discuss her past you can see the hurt. It pains me to see it but when I suggest help she says she is fine with it now.
I am sure this is why she wants to bury this issue as well.

Whats right for me is now becoming clearer.

So far she thinks AA is enough. Not saying anything derogatory about AA but there are certainly underlying factors that may help explain a lot of her behavior.

Yes she projects her feelings onto me. I know she does this but again there is nothing you can do. I have even told her that. I said one time based on the way she was reacting to the A that I know she would leave me if I did it to her. She said she would. So the inevitable conclusion in her mind is a D. So why work on something that will end up in D anyway.

I told her exactly that. I said this is going to be a self fullfilling prophecy. We will get a D not because of your A but because of everything else but when it happens you will say it is because of the A. Guess what last night she said I was never going to forgive her and she knew it. I said no you are fullfilling your own prophecy. I hope you feel good about that. Because I wanted to stay married.

[quote

Whats right for me is now becoming clearer...

...Because I wanted to stay married. [/quote]

What is it that you see? It sounds to me like you are ready for Plan B from what I'm hearing. If that the case and you think that she'll blame it on the A then, I would keep a copy in your records. I would have to repeat over and over your conditions to repair the M and state how much you love her. How it seems to you that when your nice to her, she's angry, and when your mean she's nice. Ask her if she feels that this is a normal behavior, is this a trait that she would like to see in her children?

I'm sure that you have the letter wrote, post it and lets see what kind of response you get! Are you going to kick her out? Where do you think she'll go? Are you going to Plan B in the same household?

{{{{{{Hurtingless}}}}}}

No I deleted the plan B letter after reading it.
I was stooping in that letter. LOL

I don't know what to do now because her Mom is here. Taking her side of course.

One of the things that I implemented when talking with her is to never raise my voice. Always talk in a calm manner and a low voice. Well her mom hears this and walks in and says I am talking to her like a child. Well isn't that what a PA says. Geez. So I point out to MIL that my FWW is PA and thats why I need to speak like this. Any other way of speaking and I will be accused of yelling. I said of course I would like to show some emotion but the minute I do your daughter becomes the victim. I try to avoid that at all costs.

MIL then says I am keeping everthing calm on the surface while I am angry inside. Well duh if I don't I am the bad guy.

BTW true story MIL told my aunt at my wedding she wears aluminum foil on her head to keep the aliens from reading her mind.

I brought up my FWW's unresolved molestation issues and the room fell quite. HMMMM wonder why mom never took the time to address them. Mom actually sent her to see dad knowing it was happening. But I am CRAZY.

I will not kick her out. I told her last night when she was threatening me that if she was going to threaten me things were going to get real messy in D court.

I will not live by her rules if they collide with what I believe is right.

So now she wants to go to MC again. She said she has said she would several times and I am the one that didn't want to go. I told her this morning that the reason I wouldn't go is because she hadn't quit drinking yet.

We will see. I think now that I have figured her behavior out I can make a good decesion with all of the info. Thats all I ever wanted.

Now with mom in the mix this should be fun.

Congradulations! I really was expecting the worst from you and I really hated to see that happen! That's a step in the right direction from her! She if she'll make the arrangments, and ask her if she'll ask her mom to stay out of it! Please make sure that this C focuses in the right directions! I would hate to see your W get frustrated with the C again!

{{{HAPPY< HAPPY< JOY< JOY}}} I'm dancing for you! HURRAY! Do the dance of JOY! LOL

Don't start dancing yet. Remember my wife is PA and may just agree to avoid conflict then sabotoge it.

We will see. The last time we went to MC what would happen is that was the time to discuss the tough issues. We would have a good week then the issues would come up and she would say how bad I made her feel. Why would I say that. I thought that was why we were there. To say what we felt and see what the MC thought about it. Most times she wouldn't talk to me on the way home.

I am guardedly optomistic to say the least. Again tick tock. I have only about 6 months if I decide to go to the MC. Not going to let this become a long term marriage so I can pay her alimony for life.

I am honestly just sitting here wondering if I have it in me to go through this. I may have spent every ounce of energy just to get here. Gotta try to hold that rock for a little while and see if I have the energy to give it a good push. If I get this rock up the hill I am going to wipe out a bunch of the village people because it is huge.

HL - you need to recharge. Don't need me to say that this is wearing you DOWN.

Since plan B doesn't seem to work in the same house - how about a 180? For long enough to build yourself back up again. For whatever you do next. Don't be the bigger person. Don't be mean but don't overextend either. What do you think? Seems to me that FWW doesn't respect this nice, reasonable husband that's working to rebuild the M.

Give yourself a break and turn it off. MIL should help carry some of the burden that is FWW, right? Just want to see you get some rest.

Here's the 180. Of course not all of it applies.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

I thought about mentioning 180, but being new I'm not sure when it's appropriate to use. Have you ever used 180 before? If so, what was it like? I agree with MDC you do need a recharge, and figure out what you want to do here.

Post deleted by Cherished

MDC

Thank you for spending so much time on that I really appreciate it.
Funny thing about the 180 is that is what I decided to do after the last conversation. But I now have a lot of other things I can do based on your list.

She has already tried to initiate what I would call a moving forward on her terms. I will not do that.

Last night she wanted to "talk" and she is now offering to do whatever I wanted. I told her that I have not decided if I wanted to stay married to her. She looked shocked. This is the first time I have said that to her. I usually tell her I want to try to work on it.

She asked me why and I told her because for the first time I felt bad that I said some of the things I did to her because that is not me. I hate that person but today I really do not feel bad about it. I know I hurt you and usually I feel really bad about it but today I do not.

She told me she did nothing wrong, that day, and she didn't understand why I was so upset. I told her she asked why I was upset and when I told her she started yelling at me. I said if I cannot relate my feelings to her without a negative reaction then what am I supposed to do. I told her that is exactly what has happened for the last three years. She has said hundreds of times "I am not doing this". I asked what this was.

I told her right now I don't think I can stay with you if you really believe that you did nothing wrong when you were lying to me. She said I didn't lie to you everyday. You make it sound like I was telling you lies everyday. I said as far as I am concerned you have been purposely deceitful for three years. I never waivered that our marriage was not going to move forward if you were lying to me. You made the choice to stall out our M.

I gave you three guidelines for staying married to me.
1. Treat me the way you would want to be treated.
2. Expect me to react in a situation the same way you do and accept that treatment or do not treat me that way and expect me to accept it.
3. And give to me what you expect me to give to you.

I asked her point blank would you have wanted me to not be honest with you and just sweep it under the rug? She said no she would not have. I said so what part of the guidlines have you lived by? None as far as I can see.

She then said she "NOW" regrets doing that and believes she made her bed and she should have slept in it long ago. I said yes you are correct about that but now you don't even want to deal with the affects of that on our M.

I told her sometimes when you get new information you say "Well that changes everything" she agreed. I said thats exactly what has happened.

There was a lot of other things but then she said to me. "Well I don't know if I want to stay in it anymore either after what you said last night". I said then I know you would accept a lot less from me then you have expected me to accept from you.

This morning she tried to talk to me about day to day life and I was in 180 mode and said I have too much on my mind to talk about it. She called me and wanted me to solve a problem I told her no, in a nice way.

She wanted her mom to come out for the summer. I tried to tell her it might not be a good idea. Guess what MIL here for 2 days FWW wants to send her home already. LOL. I told her that if she made the decesion her mom would stay all summer. That MIL was doing us a favor by watching the kids. When she called I said "I thought before you made the decesion we said that your mom was doing us a favor and we should appreciate it." Then I said I don't have time to think about this I have to go.

I am not going to backdown because I have done everything I can. She seems to realize her mistakes after the maximum damage the mistake can make has run its course.

What she doesn't want her mom to see the mess that she's caused? Do you think that her attitude will stay the same (moving forward that is)? Has she done this before or is this something new?

I hope that this lifts the fog from around her head! I think you've got a good thing going. You mentioned that you weren't sure if you wanted to stay with her. I think she's just back peddling when she that she wasn't sure she wanted to stay in the M after you said what you said. It just doesn't sound right!

Best of luck, I look forward to seeing how this works for you!

No it is not that she doesn't want her mom to see.

I am not passing judgement when I say this but Her Mom Is Crazy. I mean crazy like she wears aluminum foil on her head to keep the aliens from reading her brain. (thats what she told my aunt at my wedding.) No joke, real story.

I knew this was going to happen when she decided on this and I thought good maybe she will see what I have been saying for 6 years about moving back to NY.

A few weeks ago she actually got mad at me because my mom gets to spend time with the kids and hers didn't. That my mom got to see me regularly and hers didn't. Now is her chance. Her mom is here for 2 months it takes me 3-4 years to see my mom that much. Nows her time to catch up. Funny thing when we met this is exactly why she moved with me. I guess sometimes when you get what you want it doesn't seem that great.

She left me a voice mail asking to send her home again. I think I am going to make her live with her decesion. LOL. No sweat of my back for MIL to be there it really doesn't affect me.

She is trying to say it is because of what we are going through. Meanwhile we have been going through it for 3 years and we were going through it when she booked the flight.

I think I might tell her she has been beating me up for 5-6 years because she didn't have the opportunity to have a relationship with her mom. Now she gets a chance and she doesn't want a relationship with her. Think I will get an apology for all that grief? I doubt it.

Yeah, I doubt it too! I would at least keep MIL around for a few more weeks! LOL Just to drive FWW crazy, that can be part of the 180, right? Let FWW solve her on problems!

How are the kids taking to MIL around?