"Sounds like people make sacrafices sometimes because they love someone. I guess if you resent the sacrafices then you shouldn't be married. I don't resent mine but I guess I should."- could you tell my H this. resentment= affair

you coul have been a good lawyer- you phrase things the way I want to say them but can't.

I absolutely know I could have been a good lawyer. I guess the difference between me and my FWW spouse is I never felt like I was giving up more then I got in return.

She believed she gave up more then I could ever give in return.

Sad, Sad conclusion. Now that MIL is here and her brother and sister didn't give us the heads up she is now seeing what she actually gave up. Like tripping over a dollar to get to a dime.

She actually still brings up her resentment and quite frankly feel free to go get that dime. Someone will be smart enough to pick up the dollar. Probably anyone of her friends that she bragged to about me before the A.

She can resent me all she wants if it weren't for me she wouldn't have those two perfect son's we have. I know no matter what I would do it all over again just to have those to perfect people in my life.

Can you believe that I use to feel that way? Like I had lost something and it was just having to do with H, I wouldn't trade my kids for anything (unlike my mother). 13 years, Jesus! Hubbie would tell me "it seems like the only reason you want me around is for the paycheck!" Fog-covered! He told me another time that OW cooked for him, fixed his plate, picked it up, and took care of him! I said and I don't, he replied "now, you do!" What having clean clothes, food on the table, something to drink, a clean house, and all that other stuff didn't matter! DId I tell you about the time he told me I was the reason why more of our friends didn't stop by the house! I had felt like I had really lost something for a long time! Now, I realize it was all fog-talk! I had to let all of those statements plus some go, if I didn't I would have been angry for a long time. I had to understand that was his reality.

cfc-stick around, you'll be communicating like a pro in no time!

Well aint that the goshd darned truth.

Peoples perception is their reality.

If they think you are the problem you are.

One day though they might wake up and realize maybe you weren't the problem after all.

BS fog talk. I love it.

I know I have said this before but one time she said all we do is fight. I said oh so being with OM was perfect never had a fight. She said they never had a reason to fight.

I said REALLY!!!!! She said no. I said so when you and my Aunt got into a fist fight and you needed help getting out of the house and you went down to his basement apartment and he refused to help you get out that wasn't a reason to be pissed off beyond all belief.

If I did that you wouldn't talk to me for a month or two. You took him to the mall the very next day. Wish I could sign up for that treatment. Which line do I get into for that. I think I have been standing in the wrong line for too long.

What a dumb a55 thing to say you never had a reason to fight. Well if that ain't one you better never find a reason to fight with me again. LOL

Boy that was a vent and it felt good.

"I tell you about the time he told me I was the reason why more of our friends didn't stop by the house! I had felt like I had really lost something for a long time! Now, I realize it was all fog-talk! I had to let all of those statements plus some go, if I didn't I would have been angry for a long time. I had to understand that was his reality." - Have your spouses gotten the point were their reality is real reality? Mine hasn't. Mine keeps saying for years he was telling me I was controlling, but it never got better for him. I am realizing he was right I was controlling in the fact that he would say I don't want to and I would say fine then we wouldn't. this would make him upset that I wouldn't go bc of him and he wouldn't go- so what if we didn't go, if it made him happy so be it. Says he was scared I would be upset if he didn't go(maybe disappointed, but I wouldn't share that). So he made sacrifices and is resentful. I don't want him to sacrifice anymore, *I WAnt* compromise. Am I being controlling still? Because I want what is best for all of us? All along I thought this is what I was doing. I thought we were a team using POJA- just not knowing it. Instead H woud agree and I would think that was it. He just never told me his feelings. He says he told me I was controlling for years and that I never tried to change until I was scared he would leave me- BS! I would ask what he would need and he couldn't communicate it. He admits that he should have told me years ago that he should leave bc he was miserable. But still had kids with me.


RANT AND RAVE AND RANT AND RAVE.......... Okay I had a bad night last night and was up unitl 1:30 with H arguing when I finally had an anxiety attack and we both fell asleep . There is the down and dirty of it. I feel horrible this morning! Like a bad hangover!!! Actually they felt better I think.

Sorry, I just realized i took over your post for a moment! I am just in a state this morning. ROller coasters SUCK! I used to like them but seeing as I am getting older, I don't want to ride anymore!

cfc-repeat after me "IT"S GOING TO BE A GOOD DAY! IT"S GOING TO BE A GOOD DAY!" Okay, feel a little better, well, repeat it again! Calm down! First, are you on any AD's? The one I'm on is for anxiety also. I have Generalized Anxiety disorder and PTSD! I would suggest talking to your Dr. if you haven't about trying to control the problem.

If your H never owned up to his feeling and said "This is why I feel you are controlling..." how are you to correct the problem? Need I say more! You can only do so much with only a few pieces to the puzzle. Second, if you are arguing with H, you are not doing a good job of Plan Aing! You both LBed last night which in turn is creating the feelings that you are having today! There should be no relationship talk right now! Have you done ENQ? Has H? The two of you should be concentrating on those ENs right now! You need create an environment that H wants to be in. I know this is going to be hard becasue your ENs will probably not be met; however, you need to be patience. Work on yourself, I would suggest asking H for examples of you trying to control everything, just listen, control any anger that may arise, repeat what he said, and say thank you, you appreicate it, and that you'll work on it! Is this something you think you can do? The world is not going to end and that weigh will be lifted off your shoulders!

Hurting-You have a wild one on your hands!I'm glad that you got to vent, get IT all out man! LOL I'll let you address some of the questions cfc asked asked.
That's why the fantasy ends right because it's not really the world their thought it was! It wasn't until I started calling OW that H ended C. She was telling me one thing and teling H another! Then, I would tell him what was said in our conversation and I guess things didn't match! I guess H thought it was getting to be to much trouble, trying to have his cake and eat it too.

"Have your spouses gotten the point were their reality is real reality?"

No not yet. It may be coming because of the MIL being here. Part of my FWW reality was how great her relationship with her family could have been if she lived in NY.

The problem was she was assuming her family was different even though there was so much proof that contradicted this. I brought up the fact that a closer relationship with her mom was one of the reasons for moving back. Her mom is now in full PA mode with her. Doing things just to hurt and piss off FWW.

Her sister new her mom would do this and did not give us the heads up. I asked her if she asked her sister why she wouldn't tell us because we are now in a bind for child care this summer. She said if she asked her sister her sister would get mad at her. I pointed out that her sister probably should have said something. I refused to let up on the issue. Finally she said I guess it is the same as it has always been with my family. Bingo.

I don't mean to sound harsh about her family but quite frankly they have never been there for her. Her reality was that if she moved back they would. Now that reality might be changing.

This is really her only complaint about me in our M. She has held onto it because if she admits differently then what. Now there are a lot of issues in our M that this has caused that should be addressed over time.

The one thing I say about this is that the FWS has had much more time to chronicle all of the BS's faults. It is hard to believe someone would have an A if you didn't have fualts so you believe them.

Then you start disecting them and un rewrite the faulty history. When you do you also probably come up with their faults too. All of this needs to be out on the table.

You will here things like: Well if I am so bad why don't you leave me? Oh so I was worse then you? You know you are not perfect either. Stop judging me. etc.

Try not to LB but guess what we are human. I do it. Sometimes you let your emotions come out and when someone hurts you, you want to hurt them back. The idea I guess is not to LB too much.

BTW I posted on NC thread about POJA you should take a look at it.

You did a great job! Thanks from the both of us!

Quote:"You will here things like: Well if I am so bad why don't you leave me? Oh so I was worse then you? You know you are not perfect either."

What's bad is I've heard this from H! All too many times over the past year and a half, but not recently.

Of course you have.

It is so easy to point your finger unless you are standing in front of a mirror.

I still hear it today. Why don't you go find someone to make you happy.

I reply with. I do not need anyone to make me happy. I want to be happy with you. It sounds like you would rather me go find someone else instead of you making an effort to make me happy.

I am a simple man. I have given you things to do that will show me you love me and I also gave you things not to do.

You chose doing the things you shouldn't have and not do the things that you should.

If you can reverse that and put the same energy into our M as you expect me to put in then I will be happy.

I would like to walk up this hill with you I have no intention of dragging you up with me. I will set you free if you don't think you can do it. Just let me know.

H told me that last night "I'm a simple man!" It was in reference to his comment on "women think to much." I told him I couldn't understand what he meant but it meant "I read too much into things!" (BINGO!) Thanks! I said "SO, I have to accept: it is what it is!" I'm going to work on that! Thanks again for that one! I wouldn't have put two and two together!

I also asked him to agree that His reality and Mine were different! He didn't saw anything! Of course, this goes with that lovely post of mine! HE said that he doesn't say what he wants or thinks because he does want me to feel like the bad guy and hurt my feeling and then, he had to deal with my hurt feelings. I said those are my feelings, I have to deal with them, not you! I think I'm seeing signs of remorse but I'm not sure!
H also said something that I'm not sure what he meant. I even asked him to clarify it but he couldn't I guess. He said "He said something about dealing with us and his MALE PRIDE." What about male pride? What does that have to do with us?

Well, how are things today? Are you ready for MIL to be gone? What's the wife thinking now? LOL

MALE PRIDE is a feeling men have about what they should do, how they should act, and what they will put up with.

In other words men don't want to feel subservient to their wives. They do not want to feel PW'd. They feel the need to be in control. That is what society has taught us.

I learned from my grandfather that it is a bunch of malarky.

I went on a visit when I was 11 or 12 to NY to be with my extended family. I stayed with grandma and grandpa most of the time.

Grandma was the BOSS in that house. Me having male pride I said to grandpa "why do you put up with that you are the man." He asked me to follow him and he showed me a little kitchen decoration they had hanging on the wall. It said "I am the boss in this house, and I have my wifes permission to say so." He said the sooner you learn that the better your life will be. Guess what it is hanging in my kitchen now. One of the only things I wanted when they both passed away.

Men feel the need to be dominant if they aren't the other guys will make fun of them. Oh so I see who wears the pants in your family etc. Societal pressure.

MIL is leaving tomorrow. Wohaaaa. FWW seems a little concerned about having conversations regarding her assumption that MIL and her would have had a great relationship if we moved back.

We were planning a family trip for July with MIL and my parents. My FWW brought up making sure my mom is still up to going. I wanted to say why are you making plans for next month but I didn't.

I figure when MIL is gone I can test the waters about having open conversations. I will own mine and see if she is willing to listen to my feelings without getting mad or judging me, or discounting how I feel.

If I can I might go to MC. No sense in going when after every session she won't talk to me because I was mean for talking about our problems. LOL.

For me today is great. I have a job, my health, two beutiful children, a family that loves me. What more could I ask for besides a wonderful M. All things being said I have a good life. Can't let one negative outweigh all of the positives. If I did I would be a hypocrite because I told FWW that is what she did to me.

Let me point out a few things that I heard:

"Her mom is now in full PA mode with her. Doing things just to hurt and piss off FWW." - COuld your FWW have learned this from her?


"She has held onto it because if she admits differently then what"- then she will have to admit the affair and moving back was a bad idea. I think you are getting close to this. MIL hopefully won't put this back to where it ws before she came. IF so MIL and family will have to come back with their foil.LOL

Personally I haven't heard why don't you leave me? I have heard "I have no understanding as to why you still want to be married to me. I had an A that you will never recover from (DJ), and you say I was not what you wanted for years (DJ)." I tell him I love you unconditionally and if we are not together it isn't bc I made the decsion to leave or for you to leave. H was not wanting to have any responsibility for that decision. He wants me to make the decision that way he will never feel any guilt for leaving.


"If your H never owned up to his feeling and said "This is why I feel you are controlling..." how are you to correct the problem? " he would say things and I would try to fix them. Finally I gave up all attachment to him and said do whatever you need to make you happy. He refused saying when he left to go somewhere he wanted me to be happy when he came home (I find this controlling). He would leave to go out to a concert with our BIL until 3 am return home after my usual boring evening with the two kids I am with 24/7 (LOVE my kids greatly, but I have been with them for 6 years 24/7 excepting 5 times we have hired a babysitter- give me a break H never wants to leave them to go out unless it is I am watching the kids an dhe goes out or vise versa). ANyways, I was supposed to wake up all entusiastic that I get to let him sleep in and I take the kids away so that he can sleep his evening off. I am sorry I dont' find that fatherly or gentlemanlike. I know my father never went out partying at bars and wild concerts til 3 am most less without his wife.


HL I haven't read your thing on POJA but I sent the link to my H yesterday. WE'll see how that goes.


NC, in response to "There should be no relationship talk right now! Have you done ENQ? Has H? The two of you should be concentrating on those ENs right now!" I know we are LB it is hard not to. I only see H for about 5 minutes a day without the kids. He just wants to sleep. He has been working madatry OT and is tired. Theie is barely any time for ENs but somehow we make time for LB. I have been plan Aing since January. I am starting recovery now. H has agreed to it. I sent him a letter yesterday about our LB and sent him a link to POJA he said he will finsh reading it today. What I got was the difference between plan A and beginning recovery was that now all of the things that were normally swept under the rug because of the fog can be discussed and the A is not discussed anymore.

"Her mom is now in full PA mode with her. Doing things just to hurt and piss off FWW." - COuld your FWW have learned this from her?

Yes I do believe she learned it from her. Her mom is a blackbelt she is only a green belt.

"then she will have to admit the affair and moving back was a bad idea." Yes that is a correct assumption. But so far she has not admitted to that and she will say it is in the past there is nothing she can do about it now.

I posted on yours I think I answered your questions on your post.

I excited to hear how your weekend went? Did you find the Foil yet? Perhaps hidden in the closet? LOL

My weekend was tense.

Saturday FWW took MIL to the airport at 11 am.
I took oldest son to a going away party.
I had youngest with me. Took him to lunch just to make sure MIL and FWW had left.

Got home FWW went to an AA meeting instead of coming home. She did try to call me but I left the cell phone while I was running out the door trying to get away from MIL.

When FWW came home I took youngest to the pool and she came out. She sat down and kept going on an on about how bad she feels she doesn't get to have a relationship with mom. Now in the previos 11 days I have heard about 13-20 hours of her feelings about the sitch she has created and I listened.

Then for the second time I tried to express my feelings about it. You know giving up everything here to be around her family. Guess what happened, come on you know. She got mad at me.

Got up walked away and when we were walking back from the pool I said, I am sorry for telling you how I feel. She said I was kicking her when she was down and I should be more comforting. I said I thought under the circumstances I was doing a good job.

What happened her affects you and me and our M. Most importantly I feel like you put your family your mom included above our M. Now what I said back then was true. We must have spent 100's of hours discussing how much of an a hole I was for not seeing how important your relationship with your mom was.

Now you can't listen to me for 5 minutes.

She of course gave me the normal blanket appology. I am sorry for all of those times. So 100's of hours tons of problems in our M.

So because I haven't been pulling closer she told me she feels hopeless about this M. Instead of feeding into it I agreed with her. She then told me that is why she wants to go to MC.

I told her I don't know if I want to go through that at this point. She asked why. I told her for the last 3 years I have tried to prove to her I loved her. Every single time we have a fight or a disagreement etc she tells me it proves I don't.

I asked her then if I don't love you why am I still here. She told me financial reasons. I pointed out to her I would be the same financially or even better off if I left 3 years ago. She disagreed and I put it into perspective of how it was true. Told her quite frankly the first 18 months after D Day she spent more on herself then I would have paid in alimony and alimony would be ending soon if the courts gave it to her. If I leave now I would be paying from today forward. Worse off financially. She brought up child support. I said after I had you arrested I could have taken the kids and the most you would have seen them is every other weekend probably with supervision. Now my support would be more. I would be better off financially plus I would have the kids.

She said what difference does it make. I said a lot you think I am here for financial reasons and I am telling you how I have actually made it worse for myself. So if you think that is why then I would say you are mistaken. She said fine maybe that isn't why then.

I said ok if I don't love you why am I still here? I guess because I love you is the answer.

Now I have no intention of going to MC just to go around in circles then have you mad at me because we need to talk about our problems. After almost every MC session we had you walked out mad asking why I brought something up. You were always the victim. So why bother doing that. We will need at least 2 years of MC and I don't want two years of you being the victim in this.

I am also not going to pull closer to you right now because I am not going to be told I am acting. If you want to say that when I get mad it proves that I don't love you then I would have to say I have plenty of proof to say you don't love me. I know I have said it at times but you say it every time I am upset with you or your actions.

So if I don't love you then you must not love me. That is all I can think in this situation. I think in the grand scheme of things what you have done would prove that more then what I have done.

After that I have tested the waters. I am letting her get a little closer but I am not going to drop everything like I have done in the past.

Well, I can honestly say that I have some understanding of what you are going though. I'm still trying to read SHMI's thread. I understand what you are talking about with the MC also and I have a much better understanding of why you feel the way you do.

I feel so overwhelmed by it all. I realize that I can't assume anything with him. I'm still trying to figure out this DJ thing, and owning my own feeling verses owning his. I know I'm tried of the old R H and I had and I don't want to go back to that.

You know I came across something else that might be helpful.

It is using the MB priciples on other things in life that may benefit the FWS.

My FWW starts talking about a friend of hers that moved a little over 3 and a half years ago. She said she really misses her. I told her to call her.

My FWW says I have and she hasn't called back. I said so call her. This went back and forth with her explaining the outcome to me.

I told her she needs to take ownership of it. There are two things you can do call or don't call. If you call and she doesn't call back at least you know. If you don't call then she won't call back.

She of course kept telling me why bother. I said well if it bothers you that you haven't talked to her call. I said I am trying to own my own more now. I am tired of not saying or doing something because I "think" I know the outcome. I will do or say it and if the outcome is the same so be it.

Well after about a half an hour she called and left a voicemail. Her Friend called her today and was hoping my FWW would call because she lost our number.

I said see owning your own works doesn't it. She doesn't know I learned that from a bunch of whackos on the MB boards. LOL.

It benefitted her.

Ok so in an attempt not to Hijack NC's thread I changed my thread name.

I get what you guys are saying LA and 10swords but I am now feeling pretty helpless in this situation.

To be honest I am tired of taking ownership of issues hoping she sees the light of day.

I will own what is mine.

I feel like I have been attacked by her words and yet I shouldn't defend myself.

She has a feeling that is hers and I am passing a DJ for saying it is without proof or merit.

I am told I am not creating a safe environment for her. Well the environment I have been living in is far from safe for me.

So I was lucky enough to win her back and keep her here great for me.

When do I expect to see some positive results.

I did the math we have been together for 9 years now. 3 dealing with the A and honesty. 3 dealing with her need to move back to NY and three good years.

Now with everything going on I have what another 3 years of MC and IC for things to get better if "I" stop the negative behavior, the DJ's the LB's etc.

So I must absorb the pain and hurt and the DJ's. I have to slowly work on this that and the next thing so things can get better.

What is it she should be doing. I am working on a onesided recovery here. Her idea of recovery has been to lie to me for three years and try to sweep it under the rug.

So I realize now it takes two to tango and she has been sitting out the recovery dance.

I resemble that statement! LOL And BTW, that's my Family your talking about, brother! LOL

See I'm still learning about "owning" my own, and I really liked that example! I like the way you said:

"I am tired of not saying or doing something because I "think" I know the outcome."

That's right there sums up alot of what I haven't been doing! Like right now, I have some anxiety about having to deal with him this afternoon, but that's what I need to do right, stop expecting him to be a certain way when I get there.

I'm going to stop thinking about all this stuff when I get home, or at least try too! It's been a really long day!

LOL,

Well I am starting to feel like a big screw up.

MIL gone since we had no plan B for a babysitter. FWW asked the most irresponsible one we have guess what. She was irresponsible.

I had to get off the phone before I blew up about this.

I am at a loss. Ready to call it a day.

I don't know what to do or where to go but it has to be better then this.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get different results.

When I try new things hoping to get different results I screwed up yet again. LOL

I have anxiety about the rest of my freaking life right now and I have to do drive by's hoping that one day we can actually talk about "my feelings"

Can't think of many reasons not to cut bait at this point.

Learn from my mistakes, change my enabler behavior then find someone else.

Seems like me my FWW screws up and I have to fix me so she can figure out she needs fixed too. LOL.