I don't feel the need anymore to write the big long post I had planned... because the above really sums up the heart of the matter.

But I did want to make this point:

You said...


I don't know about this. I think it depends on whether or not it's really an addiction. I think willpower is probably fine for someone who's not really addicted... but for someone who IS addicted, it doesn't work so well.
As you say, most men cut it out or learn to manage it with maturity. The problem is, when it's an addiction, the addiction ITSELF stunts a person's emotional growth. It becomes a catch-22 of sorts... you need to develop the maturity to deal with the porn habit, but the porn habit inhibits you from gaining maturity.

I've heard it said that alcoholics stop maturing at whatever age they become addicted. The reason this happens is... The alcohol is used to medicate and cover up negative emotions. So the person never learns to deal with their emotions... or address their troubles. They just drown it all in alcohol... and so, they don't grow. Makes a lot of sense to me. And I would think you could apply the principle to any addiction.

That's why addicts need more than sheer willpower to overcome their addictions and really become healthy. They have a lot of emotional catching up to do... a lot of very difficult introspection and all that jazz. That's why I keep harping on the idea of him getting to the root of the problem/his core issues.

Anyway, that's all I really wanted to add. Everything else you said, I agree with. The stuff at the very end about how to initiate the conversation, and about "now" being a better time than right after he's "busted" were both really good.

Now, if I could just get my act together...


--SC

It's so hard to become vunerable again, after such a violation. I very much had a "you, first" attitude about it all. Afterall, I HAD already been open and honest... my feeling is that I should not have to put myself in such a vunerable position, again, without at least seeing something signifigant from the other side, first.

ASKME, since we are on the subject, do you know how you would check the history on a Blackberry? It's issued by his company, and I have no fears or suspiscions, but I feel a little nervous about not having anyway to verify or investigate, should the need arise. I checked the obvious history log and picture log, but those are easily deleted. Just wondering. Thank you - Dru

Smartcookie,
Intuition is usually right. If you suspect there is something hidden, there usually is. It might not be what you think it is, but that 'feeling" is there for a reason. Trust it.
Perhaps some of the reason you don't feel "love" for your husband is because you are protecting yourself from whatever is lurking. And if your husband has just shoved his addiction deeper underground, his ability to be intimate with you is compromised. I don't think addicts-of any kind-can develop intimacy. Instead of sharing deep emotions with you, they drown them in something else. If you sense his wall, it will be very difficult to share deep emotions w/ him.
Even if you have identified the things you need to do to get your act together, and are working towards making yourself a great partner, it will only be enough if he does the same. And I bet he has a hard time convincing himself to trust you with his deepest secrets after all you have recently been through.
I have been through a false recovery, and I can't begin to tell you the difference between genuine remorse and sorrow, and that which is only felt on the surface. Its possible what you are facing is only the tip of the problem. Do you really want to share yourself with him totally, and does he feel the same? Or are you both holding back in case the other is bluffing? That is the million dollar question, and only you know what is in your heart.

Dru...


I can understand why you felt that way. Unfortunately, my situation is a little more complicated since I cheated on my husband. If each of us waits for the one who wronged the other to initiate openness and honesty... we'll be six feet under before it ever happens.

I'm not so much afraid of being vulnerable... in the sense that I'm afraid of getting hurt again. My maine obstacle seems to be a lack of motivation.

--SC

Oh Cookie my ((( friend )))



ouch !

If I were to say this in regards to Mr Pep's alcohol addiction ... what would you say to me ?

Pep

SA,
I'm glad you jumped in.


Yes, I know. The last time I "caught" him using porn... I woke up out of a dead sleep with the feeling that I needed to go downstairs. No reason. Just a feeling... that I "listened" to... and I was right.


You may have a point. That may be part of it. But I think most of it is within me.


Yes. Not to mention the fact that I have a pretty sizeable wall myself.


True enough. I'm trying to concentrate mostly on my part... but can't help but want to keep a watchful eye on his part.



Hmmmm. Well, I'm not sure about this one. We sort-of had two D-days. A couple of weeks after my affair ended, I told him I didn't love him and might want to split-up. (d-day #1) We got into marriage counseling right away, and after the first or second session, he came to me and told me that he had a confession to make -- that he had been using porn quite a bit even though I had confronted him about his porn use about six years earlier and he had promised to completely stop). Since I was keeping my own big secret... and since I hadn't wanted to be very sexual with him in quite awhile... I sort of brushed-off his confession, saying that I was glad he told me and that it was out in the open, but that it was probably partly my fault since I hadn't been that receptive to him.

Then, a couple of weeks after that, I came clean about my affair. One night, we had a talk about how, for such a long time, I had felt emotionally and sexually "dead"... that when the OM came along and I "felt" something -- it was very, very, very powerful. (I was trying to explain to him why I was having such a tough time getting through withdrawl). Anyway, it was the next morning that he came to me and told me how extensive his porn use was.

So.... it's odd... the times that you'd think he would have been feeling the most hurt and betrayed... and therefore the most on guard... he actually managed to open up and share something that he was terribly ashamed of with me.

It's wierd. He had a MUCH harder time getting the words out in front of our marriage counselor than he did to me alone. I actually think he feels safer with me than with anyone else in the world (though I have no idea why, since I have failed miserably to protect him).


What do you mean by "false recovery" SA? I've noticed different people have different definitions for this term around here. I don't know. I think both my H and I are genuinely sorry for what we've done to each other. But that doesn't necessarily make it any easier to take the next steps to recover does it?




Well, I'd say it's true that we're doing well on what I would consider the more superficial stuff -- being good to each other, meeting each other's EN's, that sort of thing. But not so good on the deeper things like radical honesty. Or at least I'm not doing such a good job on that part.

Why am I (are we) holding back. The million dollar question, indeed. I guess this is where I've been "stuck" for quite awhile now. Part of the problem on my end is that I have such a long history of being emotionally dishonest with myself -- putting on a good face no matter how I was feeling... that I often have a hard time knowing MYSELF how I really feel about things... much less being able to share it with anyone else.

So yes, I know I'm holding back. Not so much because I think he's bluffing... but because... well... it's just darn hard for me.

Any suggestions?

--SC

P.S. The first time we talked about my affair in MC, our counselor told us, "The good news is, most marriages survive infedelity... unless there's a whole lot of other messy stuff overcome too... then it's a little harder." At that point, he didn't yet know about my husband's addictive behaviors or my childhood sexual abuse. Sometimes it just all seems too overwhelming.

I know, Pep. It sounds awful. But you took it out of context. I only feel that way because it seems like he's trying to 'white knuckle' it. And by helping him to avoid using... without addressing the root problems for his addictive behaviors (all of them)... It seems to me, all I'd be doing is enabling him to fight it off, but not helping him to really get healthy. Does that make any sense?

Mr. Pep attends AA, does he not? And you have every indication that he has really worked the program, right? For this reason, I think comparing your situation with mine is a little like comparing apples with oranges.

--SC

Yeah ... he's "all in" with AA ..... but that was my boundary Cookie ...

No AA = No Pep

He said, "I'll just stop drinking, why do I need to go to AA?"

BUT

marriage therapist told me dry drunks are just too anxious to work with

so my thought is ...

have your dear H go to porn anonymous (is there such a thing?)

that's what I think of when I say embrace "prevention" rather than "catching" him with his hand in the cookie-jar
(yukky pun I could not resist, forgive me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

No porn therapy = no cookie

????????? does that make sense?

Pep <~~~ I have a confession to make in a minute

my confession

I took a valium for my re-herniated lumbar disc (and also on prednisone which makes me loopy)



and I cannot concentrate worth a damn right now .... which is why the global warming thread will have to wait for the ozone in my brain to clear

~~~~~~~~~~ loopy whoopie doopie

Smart Cookie,
To me, false recovery is when one partner thinks the marriage is recovered, but the other partner continues to keep something hidden. In my case, it was something huge.
And I knew it-or at least I knew I did not have all the pieces of the puzzle figured out. That's where my comment about intuition came in. Now I have complete trust in my ability to pick up bad vibes, and I don't let anyone talk me out of my misgivings.
There are meetings just like AA for SA-same principles. There is also IC who specialize in sexual addiction. The unfortunate reality is that it is very rare for someone to believe they need help unless they reach true rock bottom. My guess is that he is just taking the white-knuckle approach to keep you happy. Does he want to get it under control because he knows it gets in the way of a wonderful relationship? My guess is that he thinks it’s a problem only because you think it’s a problem, and he tells himself that as long as you don't know about it, the relationship is not affected. Only after they start to embrace therapy, and stop the compulsive behavior (correctly-not white knuckle) can they experience what they have been missing.
Like Lemmonman says-they don't know what they don't know. And true desire to change often comes at a very high price.

One more thing. Perhaps the reason he confessed when he did was because his guilt was so great-he felt that the time to come clean was when you were confessing too. Maybe he could avoid some anger from you ifhe unloaded when you were down-people in glass houses don't throw stones kind of thing.
But I think it speaks volumes that his need to unburden himself was that powerful-almost more powerful than his hurt over your betrayal.

Pep-- Keep a lid on it, would you woman???!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to hear about your herniated disk. I've got one of those pesky little things, too. Puts me right out of commission from time to time. Hope you're feeling better.

--SC

Pep...
"Lid"... "cookie jar"... get it?

Okay... here's the problem...

If my boundary was: SA or bust... I might as well file the D-papers NOW.

Remember... the last time I found him using, he was so humiliated, he refused to even go back the our counselor... the one we used for MC and I'm still using for IC... the one who ALREADY KNOWS all about his porn use/abuse. He flat-out refused to do it... even though HE had said he would get help if he couldn't stop on his own. (of course I didn't push it at that point, so maybe he would have if I had been more firm).

As for any type of group... no way, no how, no ma'am. Won't happen.

--SC

SC,
Would he complete lessons online? I think I might have suggested a website a few months ago- did he ever check that out?

SA,
I'm trying to remember the specific site you mentioned... I think I pasted a link to it in a file he started to consolidate the useful information he found in one place. But that file has sat dormant for a few months now.

I know he checked out a couple of web sites but he said he couldn't relate to most of them, and that they even made him question whether or not he had a "real" addiction. I think many of the sites (and books on the subject) spend a fair amount of time looking at "worst case senarios" -- where the guys become totally obsessed with porn... or they start dabbling in the illegal stuff... or get sucked into the more interactive stuff. While my H's AMOUNT of use definately increased over the years, there seems to have been a line he never crossed. I can't say I know anything about the content he was watching. But, for example, he told me he wasn't obsessed with it. (Just couldn't stop himself from using it each and every night).

The other "issue" with a lot of the material he found -- he said it was too religious.

--SC

I understand his thought process-its hard to see yourself in w/ some of those very hard core, worst case scenarios. I think the counselors are just trying to get the message across that everyone can be helped, no matter how bad they think the problem is. Recovery nation is the site I suggested-its under some construction now, but you could still get to the lesson plans if he wanted to start. I did not thing that site was religious, but I know some of them are.

SC -

I've never posted to you before. Started reading your threads after your BH found your posts on the computer. I didn't read your CSA thread because it didn't apply and work has been killing me these days.

That said, I have to admit I'm scratching my head over something. Maybe I missed a key thread somewhere.

My question is, since you are the FWW, why are you spying on your BH trying to ferret out porn use? Shouldn't you be focusing on rebuilding his trust in you, and the love that you say you don't feel for your H? I mean, if his porn use is an issue then by all means address it, but this sounds to me almost like blame transfer or a tactic to deflect attention from your A.

Just my $.02 worth.

Thanks SA.

cookie jar lid

*check*

it's all goooooooooood

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />