BB,



I wrote about my H's first revelation that he had been using porn -- heavily and compulsively for the last several years -- in one of my first major threads:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=3&vc=1 ("I cheated, I told, Still struggling")

I wrote about his latest setback in the following thread...
(like http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID= ("FWW worried about BH's porn use")



Because... the fact that I had an affair doesn't "cancel out" the fact that he's had a porn addiction for a number of years... and that he has refused to go to counseling or do any other type of "program" to deal with it.

Yes, the affair was/is a devastating blow to my H and our marriage. So was/is his porn use and abuse. They BOTH need to be addressed.

As for the spying... if a BS were here with a gut feeling that "something was up" with his/her FWS... would you chastize the BS for spying?

It's true that my H didn't cheat on me with a 3-D human being... but his porn use was just as secretive as any affair... and perhaps as corrosive to our relationship, too.


Yes. This is a very good point BB. I HAVE been focusing on those things. I've done what I can to rebuild the trust. I think things are okay on that front. If Mr. Cookie has any questions or concerns about my trustworthiness, he hasn't expressed them in quite a long time.

As for the love I don't feel... that's my #1 frustration. I feel like I have hashed-out this issue at length on these boards -- to the point that many of the people who were helping me so much in the beginning have stopped posting to me all together. Maybe they have nothing more to say on the subject, or maybe they figure I'm a lost cause. Not sure. Regardless, If I could think of a new question or a different angle on the subject, I'd ask it. I've been told to just keep doing what I'm supposed to be doing as the FWW and the feelings will eventually come. So that's what I'm doing. But I'll admit that I'm pretty discouraged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


No, BB. On a personal level, I'm working on my "issues" through counseling, reading, & writing. I know it was wrong and screwed-up for me to cheat. It was also out of character. And I'm trying to uncover the flaws in me that made me vulnerable, and allowed me to do something that goes against my own code.

But I don't have any reason to blame-shift or deflect. My H doesn't hold my affair over my head... or even want to talk about it anymore.

--SC

Thanks for the backgrounder threads. I agree with much of what Just_Learning had to say in the first thread.

Also, in that first thread, you asserted that your H's porn use was a betrayal on a level with your A...let's just say that I strongly disagree with this statement and leave it at that. Because of this disagreement, and some other factors, I'll have to pass on your porn addition comments because I don't think I can answer them fairly.




It seemed to work for desire. You got through a blockage over SF and seemed to have things working pretty well there. Maybe 'they' are right and you just need to keep at it. You mentioned that you never really loved him in the first place, is that true or was that fogspeak? If it was true, then I honestly have no idea what to say.


That doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt, or affect him in ways he may not understand. I think it was in your second thread where you mentioned that he had a tendency to want to sweep things under the rug.

Maybe he's afraid to bring it up, maybe he's humiliated about it, maybe he connects it to his porn use which is already a sore spot for you. The world is full of maybes. You won't know until you get him talking again. I'd say find a way to get him back to MC - the one that already knows about his porn addiction.

BB...


Ummmmm... No, let's not leave it at that. You know, this issue comes up often around here, and there are various opinions. It's interesting. There have also been threads pondering whether an affair or the death of a loved-one is more devastating. Lot's of differing opinions on that, too.

Personally, I don't think there's a universal right or wrong answer. I think it depends on the individuals involved, and on the specific circumstances of each situation. The context, if you will.

I HAVE noticed that people (mostly women) who actually live with porn-addicted spouses are much more likely to understand how deeply destructive it is... and are much more likely to consider the betrayal on the same level, or close to the same level, as adultry.

Those who have no direct experience with porn addiction (and ESPECIALLY those who may want to justify their own porn use and abuse)... tend to downplay it.

Just an observation.

But I also have to wonder why you "strongly" disagree. You seem like a very thoughful person (as in, someone who really thinks things through)... but as I understand it, neither adultry nor porn addiction is a factor in your own marriage. So, I'm curious where you get your "strong" opinions on this?

It's kinda' like... people can have strong opinions on parenting. But unless they have kids themselves, I'm less likely to give their opinions a lot of weight.

There are people whose wisdom transcends personal experience. But, IMO, they're pretty rare birds.

More to the point:


Maybe. It's also possible that, because of my background, it will just take longer than most. That's why I haven't given up.


I don't know.


Well put, BB. Thank you.

--SC

... as opposed to the next time he acts out and refuses any treatment? So you're just buying time, getting your ducks all ligned up so you can divorce him then? I'm not sure I understand your plan.


It's like the difference between someone having a drink and someone being a drunk. An unmanaged porn addiction is just as destructive as an A on the BS and to the marriage. It's 100% unacceptable and cannot exist in a healthy marriage. Period.

As is often said, both spouses contribute to the condition of the marriage before the A, and a porn addict certainly sets up a very dangerous enviroment for their spouse. There's not much lonlier than living with a porn addict. Feelings of inadequaticy, lack of intimacy, resentment, hate - sets the stage perfectly for an A, if the spouse isnt especially careful in protecting their boundaries. - Dru

SC,

You said something I thought I would discuss with you. You said
My opinion about this is probably going to be more discouraging to you. I don't see how you are going to feel love for a man that you only see major flaws in. If the issue of porn use defines him, his actions, his love for you, his very being, then I don't see how you could love him.

However, I would point out that he has not let the issue of your affair define how he sees you, or make him think that your affair defines you, your future, and yes even your morals. What I suspect he fears is that you have chosen another man over him once and you will do it again.

Now I mention these things for several reasons. One YOUR perspective on things will need to change for you to feel love for your H. You will need to his his positive traits, his love for you, and perhaps who he really is in a positive light. Right now you don't. Your focus is on his failings and therefore he will fail in your eyes.

There is a balance point here SC. I cannot tell you exactly where it is, but it is NOT where you are looking.

Permit me to ask you a hypothetical question. If your H's porn use had one affect and one affect only, and that affect was that it stoked his desire for you, would you be as bothered, assuming we are not talking about something illegal?

I am NOT justifying his porn use, but what I wonder is if it can be redirected and then gradually reduced. I wonder if he fears that if he goes to counseling that they will scrub his head of ALL fantasies or shame him into renouncing who he is in the process of addressing this addiction.

What I do KNOW is that having a W that loves him cannot not hurt in the battle he has ongoing. He does not have that support and he does need it. Most people do when they are overcoming their failures or weaknesses. I don't care if we are talking about diets, affairs, porn, drugs, smoking, drinking, whatever, life is a team sport.

You see what I seem to think and I expect you to correct me if I am wrong is this issue of the porn is YOUR issue. You want him to quit for YOU, not for what it would do to improve his life. Do you see the perspective problem here?

Just some thoughts. Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Dru,
My plan... the next time I discover he's acting out... is to insist that he get real, structured treatment... or we separate. He will never go to group. But he might go back to our MC or do the online program Starting Again suggested.

Before his last relapse, we had an agreement that he would get help if he couldn't stop on his own. But we didn't define what that "help" would be. When I walked in on him using... he was so humiliated... and I really felt for him... and when he said it would just be too hard and embarrassing for him to go to counseling about the porn "with everything else that was going on", I let my own guilt get the best of me and I caved. I agreed to support him in dealing with it "his way"... which was to do some online research and read a book. I don't necessarily regret that I did that. I realize that beating an addiction is a process... and if part of the process needed to be him trying it his way first... so be it. But if he slips again... I will be in a better position to insist that a new approach is needed.

JL,
As always, you've given me some things to think about. But before I respond, I want to ask you a question: Do you believe that a person can have a bona fide addiction to porn? If so, we're working from the same starting point, and it will be easier to discuss this issue. If not, it's almost impossible to have a productive give-and-take on this, IMO. It's like two people -- one who believes that life begins at conception, and one who doesn't -- trying to reach an agreement on whether abortion is immoral. Nearly impossible to do because the two people come from conflicting starting points.

Either way... your points about my perspective are definately worth considering. Excuse me while I take some time to consider.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Well, okay. I was hoping we might agree to disagree; I feel like you have already gone through this with people much more eloquent than myself.


I very much agree. That's part of why I didn't want to go further into it - I have seen people on many forums who think they are privy to The One Universal Truth About _________, and woe to anyone who disagrees with them.



I have made that same observation.


Yes and no. I've also seen some who do have direct experience with porn addiction who seem very quick to point the finger at sex addiction or porn addiction, where I didn't think it was warranted.



Thank you for the kind words. I'm an engineer and am happiest when I have time to think things out, and somehow get them to fit in some kind of logical linear order. The world doesn't always cooperate.

You are correct that adultery is not a factor in my marriage. I was cheated on by women that I cared very deeply about, however. I was an OM about 13 years ago. The next relationship after that, my live-in GF cheated on me at least twice, so you could say that karma evened up the score. In any case, I have an almost puritanical dislike of marital infidelity. I believe it is one of the worst things you can possibly do to another human being. The pain that comes off these pages is orders of magnitude worse than the pain that I felt years ago. I can catch glimpses of what these people are going through, but I know I can't truly understand it.

As for porn addiction, that hasn't been a problem for me. I look at porn occasionally - I have since I was in high school. Some times more than others; much less in the last couple of years. At first I thought I was just getting bored with it, or that it was all starting to look the same. After reading MB I'm thinking that it's just not satisfying the EN's that I need from my wife. There was one poster who likened porn and masturbation to fast food - it's okay once in a while, but you shouldn't live on the stuff, and is no comparison to a steady diet of SF and AF.

My heart goes out to the wives who are ready, willing, and able for SF, but their husbands would rather watch porn than be with their wives. These guys have problems that they need to get help for. I can understand the wives' pain, anger, frustration, and betrayal, but I can't put it in the same category as an affair.

However, I have an issue with wives who deny their husbands sexually, and then get indignant when the guy looks at porn and/or masturbates.

From the posts you referenced yesterday, it seems as if you fall into both categories. You stated that you distanced yourself sexually from your husband for some years, and I also saw reference to times that you were 'ready to go' but your H was downstairs watching porn.


Well, I do have a son <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

But you're right, which is why I don't normally enter these kinds of discussions. I recognize that I have not experienced marital infidelity, divorce, bankruptcy, CSA, porn addiction and a whole host of other things. I really do my best to stick to topics that I understand and know something about (snooping, depression, suicide, lack of SF), or to limit my posts to expressions of support. People's marriages and even their lives are at stake here, and they need to hear from somebody who knows what the heck they're talking about.

I so agree with dru here...



this is a BIGGIE miss Cookie Jar lid ... and for me, it's a hill worth dying on.

Pep

PS ... just to show you how "loopy" I actually was ... i wrote that i had taken valium ... but in actual fact, it was vicoden.

drugs = bad

but that pill sure did stop the hurt

I am doing much better

no vicoden for 24 hours

my STRONGEST objection to porn

it is an intimacy substitute until proven otherwise

just as much as my H's drinking was an intimacy substitute ... who could he really "experience" on a soulful level ... when he was pickled?

answer = no one

Pep

SC if your husband is embarassed to go to counseling, tell him that I stand up in front of guys at church to give my testimony about how I have turned around on my sex addiction. I talk about the problems I had with masturbation, porn, affairs and other things. I'm completely honest and have given talks where some of the guys look completely shocked and then they open up with questions because they have never had anyone they could ask before. It's amazing watching men finally having someone they can ask the real questions they wanted to ask and never knew who they could ask. That is why I always tell them go ahead and ASK ME.

Sc,
I wouldn't get hung up on if its an addiction or not. Rather, I'd ask, Does my husband routinely escape in to a fantasy world in order to cope w/ his anxiety? Is he guilty enough to keep it hidden? If so, those facts get in the way of a true, honest relationship. What you call it doesn't matter as much as how you overcome it.

Hey BB, I'm glad you chimed in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I seem to process things best by writing. And it doesn't matter whether I'm responding to someone who's got a wealth of knowledge and insight on the topic at hand... someone who doesn't seem to "get it"... someone who's offering support... someone who's playing devil's advocate... or someone who's just asking a question out of curiosity. It ALL helps to hash things out and maybe look at the situation from a different angle. (The only time I don't do well is when I feel attacked -- fortunately that doesn't seem to happen to often here).

On a side note, I'm sorry to hear that your life has been touched by suicide. I obviously don't know the context, but it doesn't matter. Anyone who has had a brush with that big, horrid dragon can't help but be deeply wounded. My sincere sympathies.

--SC

Pep,
I do agree that there's no way Mr. C and I can have an healthy, intimate relationship with the porn between us (actually, the more I think about all this, the more I think the COMBINATION of his addictive behaviors is the real problem -- I've been wondering more and more lately about his drinking...)

But it's really hard for me to get a handle on all this while I'm trying to adress my own issues, ya know?

I end up asking myself questions in a circle: Am I using his addictive behaviors as an excuse to give up? If so, will I look back on all this with regret because I didn't get to a strong, emotionally healthy place MYSELF before making decisions regarding his issues? On the other hand, the addictions will have to go, no matter what, so does it really matter what my motivation is for taking a stand on this?

See how convoluted my thinking can get? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad to hear you're feeling better.

--SC

Thanks SC. Sorry to threadjack but a part of me really wants to get this out.

My mom tried to kill herself 3 times, but I didn't find out about it until I was in high school. I was very very close twice, in college...know what stopped me? The first time I couldn't find any bullets - it was only then that I cried. The second time I didn't think I had enough pills, and didn't want to end up a drooling vegetable for the rest of my life. Depression seems to run in my family.

My wife was very close once. She went into a depression a few months before we got married, but we didn't figure it out until a couple of years later. Near as we can figure, the birth control pills she was on triggered some hormonal change. I also think that the fact that we were getting married meant she had a 'safe place' to let her psychological guard down to deal with childhood/teenage issues.

I had a friend in college who hung himself. Didn't leave a note, but his GF had recently dumped him and he wasn't doing well in school.

Five years ago, I had a longtime friend who was shot and killed by his WW. She was having an affair with a co-worker, and was caught writing practice suicide notes for her husband. For whatever reason she went through with it anyway a couple weeks later and did everything she could to make it look like a suicide. She's the only one who really knows what happened that night, and I can't believe a word she says.

AskMe,
I really admire the courage it must take to do what you do. In a church group, no less. But for Mr. C... not only does he carry around a fair amount of "naughty boy" baggage from childhood... He's also, shall we say, "in the public eye". Because of his personality alone, it would be very hard for him to go to any group.. but add on the fact that everyone there who "know who he is... gasp!" I honestly think it would overwhlem him and cancel out any positive gains he might make there. Fortunately, there are other avenues. They may not be AS good or effective as SA.. (or a similar group program) but I have to be realistic about what to expect from him.
--SC

StartingAgain,


Good point. I have a friend who agonozed for years about whether or not to "call" her husband an alcoholic. (IMO, he's a functional drunk). Then, she started going to Alanon, and realized that it didn't matter what label she put on him... or whether he fit some standard measure of what an alcoholic is. What mattered is that he exhibits all the behaviors of an alcoholic... so whether or not he "drinks enough" to fit anyone's definition of "alcoholic" or not... he defintately has the disease... and so she is learning to approach the situation as such.

On the other hand... there are tried and true ways to overcome addictions that differ from the methods you might use to overcome other problems, right? Don't you have to have an understanding of what you're dealing with before you figure out the best way to fix it?

And that's why I asked JL if he thinks people really can be addicted to porn (as opposed to... I don't know what... just liking to use it so much you do it ALL the time???). I respect JL a lot and I think he gives some really solid advice. But many of his comments to me about this whole porn thing seem to run counter to what I know about dealing with addictions... so I'm trying to get a handle on why that might be. That's all.

By the way, the answer to both of the questions you posed is, "yes". (or at least he did... and he still may... and he also seems to do this with drinking and gambling)

--SC

yeah

so what?

Mr Pep goes to AA meetings with THE hollywood elite

I mean

WORLD famous faces

it's anonymous

and pride goeth before a fall

Pep

that sounded way to snooty

sorry for the tone

but it was meant to be supportive ....

((( hugs )))

Pep

Wow, BB. I don't know what to say. No need to apologize for the threadjack. I'm glad you got that out, if it helped. I just wish I knew the right words to offer some comfort or support.

How are you doing with the depression now?

--SC

Pep,

I KNEWWWWWW you were going to say that, Pep, LOL. And it didn't come across as snooty to me at all.

You know what I've been learning lately? The more I open up and share my flaws with others, the more I realize how "the same" we all are. How we ALL have flaws. And
it doesn't matter what your profession is... or what position you hold in your community or the world. In fact, it seems some of the people we put on pedistals (sp?) in this culture are the ones who are the most troubled.

It's the attempt to put on that "perfect" facade that's so unhealthy.

But Mr. Cookie isn't there yet. Again, I'm just trying to be realistic with my expectations... knowing his history and the details of his current situation as I do.

--SC