you're a good egg cookie

gotta run now

be gentle with yourself

you're still "fresh"

OK?

XOXO

Pep

SC,
I think compulsive behavior is frequently used to hide from real emotions. A few drinks can make a shy guy the life of the party. Perhaps the risk of gambling gives a person such a rush they do it over and over again. Emotional eating,porn, drugs- all of those things can be used to self medicate and help someone forget about the real feeling they have right before they drown it with their method of of choice. Its compulsive if they know they shouldn't do it, they don't want to do it, and they risk family, jobs, marrriages-kind of like the pull an affair has. Once they start down the path they can't stop. I think at that point they seriously need to look at what is driving their behavior and find an alternate way to deal with it besides hiding it.

SC,

You asked if I thought porn could be addicting? My answer this site can be addictive, so yes I think porn can be. Is it the same as drugs or alcohol? Maybe not, but for some people it could be close.

You also said
Please tell me the difference between liking to do it so much that you do it every day and an addiction. I think there in lies the issue.

I have been reticent to jump on the porn/addiction bandwagon for afew reasons. One, porn is view in some level or another by far more people than can be claimed to be addicted. Alcohol is ingested by far more people than those that become alcoholics and need help.

But, one thing is certain people do these things because it pleases them in some way. Oddly, it can please them even if it depresses them further than they might be. I don't pretend to know how the brain is wired and rewired in these situation but it sure can be.

My bet is that porn use for us is NOT about comparing to you in any way. My bet it is escapism and fantasy but most of all he preceives it to be emotionally safe. It is a far cry from having to deal with real people and people he does not really trust.

The real test of an addiction is whether they can function without whatever it is they are hooked on. It sounds as if your H has a hard time with this. He needs counseling but with someone that really appreciates the issues at hand.

My bet is right now he is having a hard time facing life especially having a W that does NOT love him and clearly showed him that. This is NOT a dig at you. It is just a comment based on the concept that he went into porn to avoid the complexities of dealing with real people and his real people W. I am assuming that he does NOT do porn to satisfy issues within himself that are both illegal and dangerous.

So the answer is yes. People can be addicted to porn, just as they can be confirmed conflict avoiders and perhaps they are one in the same, I don't know.

Don't give up on him, but see if you can get him some IC with someone that has experience dealing with individuals that are heavily into porn.

Must go, hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,


A common denominator in porn or sexual addictions is that the user acknowledges that it's causing problems in the rest of their lives and that they have tried to quit, but have failed. My H used the word 'compulsive' long before we ever heard the term addictive (in regards to SA).

It's a form of self-medication, not unlike food, which also causes great problems in peoples lives, whether you want to use the term addiction in relation to food, or not.

If you can imagine how the party chemicals an A affect the brain, you've got the right idea. It's not a fun, casual thing, anymore, it's a 'fix', and another fix is always needed. And they start jones'n out when they cannot get their fix, they obsess about it, then they get the fix - repeat cycle.

Patrick Carnes has several books on the subject. They're not too long, if you're looking for some casual reading <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. I hope you are doing well - Dru

[color:"blue"]edited to add this description by ASKME from another thread:

Addictions are the results of a person trying to cope with a problem in an unhealthy manner. The person with the addiction usually looses control over whatever is being used to cope with the problem. They feel like they can no longer say no, but instead have to seek out the addiction in order to find some type of temporary relief from the stress and emotional buildup they are feeling.

Once they act out with their addiction they find themselves in a cycle where the shame of the addiction redrives the cycle and they once again are feeling the emotional pain that brings them full circle again. So once they are retriggered they will once again turn to the addiction and repeat the addictive cycle.[/color]

Two other good writers on sexual addiction are Russell Willingham and Mark Lasser. Both have excellent books out on the subject. Patrick Carnes has some of the first books out, since he developed the model for the sex addiction cycle.

Russell writes about the inner core beliefs which develop in a person. Mark is a previous pastor who was a sexual addict and came to terms with his addiction. He know helps thousands of others to deal with their problems.

Oh by the way...

ALL files prior to last Friday have diappeared from our home computer.

What to make of this?

I have NO idea.

Could be just a routine "cleaning-up of junk."

Could be something else.

(shrug)

Hi Cook!

H and I have an agreement that I am the only person to clean out the computer history. Accountability is a serious part of recovery, if he's read the books he said he did he'd understand that. Did you read the SA books? Have you two discussed Transparency and Accountability?

It's pretty standard stuff, since he's 'saying' he's working on this issue, he should be agreeable, yes?

Someone here on MB found a great quote, I dont remember who...

HOPE is not a method

Time for serious converstaions about this. You are permitted to ask for an update on his status and points of view about this. If he's serious, current his attitudes and ideas should reflect it. I'd ask my H questions after dday#1 and he'd get snappy and curt. He later admitted that he wasnt any where near celebacy at that time. Once he stopped the activites for real, he could talk about it.

Have you looked for SA councelors in your area? I, too, didnt think I'd ever get H to a group, but I got him to an IC who specialized in SA (he said he'd do it for me if it'd make me feel better. I quickly agreed). H was hugely relieved after his first appointment. I made the list, but H made the calls and picked the Dr.

Just some thoughts - Dru

Ok, under internet options, under the General TAB, look at days to keep pages under history and see what that is set to. A low number will help clear things out quicker. Also, under internet options under the ADVANCED TAB, there is an option EMPTY TEMPORARY INTERNET FILES FOLDER WHEN BROWSER IS CLOSED. Now that will empty some stuff, but not everything.

SC:

Long time it seems with no see. I have been busy and just occassionally come back to check in. I see this thread is still hot and heavy (no pun intended).

I don't have a lot of time but since you know the history I will give you the short version of my thoughts on this. Over the years I struggled with what I thought was a porn additiction. Doesn't really matter if it was an additiction or not, how it started or how it ended (before relapses) but as Pep so insightfully pointed out, it was an intimacy substitution that kept me from doing my part in the relationship. I could easily justify that my FWW in fact essentially drove me to find that substitute, but in reality, I own that decision just as she owns her A.

As you may remember, my BIL recently went into inpatient treatment for alcoholism. He wasn't the normal drunk so to speak as there was often days or weeks when he never even wanted a drink. But once he started, he just couldn't stop. My struggle with porn was the very same way. I would say about my struggle just as I would say about BIL's alcoholism that it doesn't matter that I can control the in betweens, it is the constant pull toward that vice and the inability for that to not be my focus when I or him am participating that is the root of the problem.

BIL recieved very good treatment and counseling. Their focus was that in addition to all the things like admission of a problem, ownership, etc. in order to prevent relapses it is vital to get down to the root of what happens that starts the process. I believe like many other posters here that Mr. C probably started this for the same reasons I did. You were catting around with Mr. Not so Right and even though he didn't know, the effects that it had on your M was a lack of intimacy. Doesn't matter whether his porn use pre-dated or post dated the start of your A, the real issue is that at some point he saw an escape route from the lack of intimacy through porn just as you saw an escape route through Mr. Not so Right.

Now the affair is over and you have certainly done your part to try to get the recovery ball rolling the right direction and then this nasty piece of garbage still is sitting in the garage stinking up the place occassionally. It is only because you don't go in the garage that you don't smell it everyday. But I will guarantee you that Mr. C's "refusal" to go to counseling or use this site, etc. has resulted in that little devil sitting on the shoulder of the Animal House character is still there telling him..Just do it, all the time just as an alcoholic doesn't really want to take the first drink but almost always does.

I am sure that I am not telling you anything you don't already know. The real issue is how do you and Mr. C quash that little shoulder devil. IMHO, this is an issue that you both have to deal with, not just him. There are probably a lots of triggers that cause that little devil to pop back up, not the least of which is resentment. Everytime since D-Day that things are less than just perfect I know have a rationalization urge that seems to encourage me to do things that previously were unthought of. When I get that whole back in my stomach from thinking about what my FWW did, sometimes I want to get even...i.e. the reason why revenge affairs are so prevalent, other times I want to escape...i.e. I have been back to porn sites a few times since D-Day after not having been at all for more than two years prior to D-Day. My trigger for this as best as I can figure is twofold...one a sense of entitlement (it really is not that bad, at least I am not sleeping with them unlike FWW) or two, now that I know what true intimacy in a R is, I want it all the time...i.e. I am now addicted to intimacy. If W is not intimate, I want to seek it anywhere else even if it is a poor substitute.

Now don't think that my above comments in any way are trying to justify my relapses. I will say it straightout...my use of porn at any time regardless of what else is going on with my M is just another wall that prevents true intimacy from occurring in the R...period. It is an urge that I have to fight, for no other reasons than the most important thing for me is to have a happy marriage and my use of porn is an impediment to that goal.

Over the last two months, I have battled and struggled with this issue as well as continued resentment issues and my FWW needing personal time for herself as well as our time of undivided attention together. We POJA'd something that has changed our life forever and allowed us to continue in the recovery process.

We still both make the time for undivided attention. However, since I would spend every waking hour (and some sleeping hours) attached to her hip (again no pun intended) if I could but she needs that melt down time to herself occassionally, I found an activity that I can do a couple hours of day right after work that gives her the personal time that she needs and takes so much of my attention that I can't think about the A, porn, fights we had in the past etc. I am training my own horse (I used to hire that out) and it has been a godsend for both of us. When I am training my filly, I have complete control, something I felt like I lost after D-Day and to do it right not only does the horse have to give me it's undivided attention but I have to give it my undivided attention. Once I am done, I come home and wifey and I have our time together. Since I have spent my time away doing my own thing, I work even harder making her time special. She doesn't feel like I am klingy and we both really feel good when we are sharing our time together because we have both already met our personal needs.

Am I sharing my time between two different loves? Absolutely, but my priorities are right and having the second love as an escape which is positive and doesn't take away from the first love is a far better alternative than before. Hope this helps. I can arrange to buy Mr. C a horse if needed.

NT

Dru,


I love the way you cut through the bull and 'lay it out there'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Thank you for putting it that way. It helped me to realize that I've simply been afraid to talk to him about this. And it's partly because he NEVER brings up my affair. But that's his choice, and it doesn't preclude me from bringing up things that I have concerns about.

The only book he read is "The Angry Heart: Overcoming Borderline and Addictive Disorders". As far as I can tell... it's mostly about Borderline Personality Disorder, and not specific to porn/sex addictions.

That's a good idea, to make a list of counselors. Should be fairly easy.

We have company coming this weekend -- a full house of relatives. I'm going to try to enjoy the fun and then look for an opportunity to talk to him about his after that.

Thanks again gang!

--SC

... don't forget Cookie

we are all mean-spirited judgmental cult members....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

have a great weekend SC. I've not been posting to you much on this, but i sure am reading and I am rooting for you both. {{{{SC}}}}

H*ll yeah, I'm judgemental... too many flakey nut-cases out in the world to risk just automatically treating everyone like they're Mother Theresa! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

But I never intend to be mean, so I try to watch the bluntness.... I know I can come off harshly, at times. I'm glad you appreciated my directness <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Yes, but isnt your A over? His porn use is a current and continuing issue. Cook, I really think you two each need to grab some of the SA books and read them, after the company leaves, of course. Recovery takes strategy and action, reading some books is a good start, but protective measures need to be incorporated, too.

Ever read the diet books? Most say you need to get the junk food out of the house and start developing some new habits to replace the bad ones. You need to change your routine to avoid temptations, and even some even suggest you have a sponser or support group to call in times of crisis.

If people go to these lengths just to avoid food, think of what might be needed for a 'drug' that's sitting on his desk, just waiting to be accessed. It's the same with most anything that someone wants to quit... it's never JUST reading... steps are taken, routines changed, plans... work.

Good luck with the Visitors... - Dru

NT,

I am VERY happy to hear that you and Mrs. NT found a way to work out your 'time together/time alone' issue!! Very good news. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, I've gotta set you straight on one thing regarding my situation:


Uuuuuhhhmmmm... No NT... Not even close, dude! Cookie-man STARTED using porn in college (according to him). I met him when he was 30. That gave him a good 8-12 years to do his thing before he ever even MET me! Or, put another way, 24-28 years before I started "catting around".

So this started for him long before there was a lack of intimacy in our marriage... because it started long before threre WAS a marriage.

He tells me it has been a factor -- to a greater or lesser extent -- for the entire time.

That said, I understand -- and agree with -- what you're saying about getting to the root of what triggers him. I also think he needs to address whatever emptiness or negative feelings WITHIN HIM -- not about me or the marriage -- he's trying to fill or cover up.

I understand that him trying to tackle this... while also dealing with my betrayal... and my continued distance while working through my own issues... is a big job. A huge job. (I think this is what JL has been trying to get at) That's why I've been so wishy-washy with my boundaries regarding this. It doesn't seem fair for me to be a hard-azz about his porn use... when something I DID may be making it harder for him to recover.

On the other hand... he's had other opportunities to adress this loooonnnng before my affair... and he chose not to. So my responsiblity in that regard only goes so far.

--SC

Naw... not mean-spirited or judgmental. But don't drink the punch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

SC:

Hope you didn't take offense to my post, I was just guessing at the situation. Now that you have clarified, I am not sure that it changes my perspective much EXCEPT that his intimacy issues may have nothing to do at all with you but how he regards intimacy in general. Now dealing with his struggles in this regard especially since it has been almost 30 years of habit forming certainly doesn't mean that him dealing with your A will make it any easier. In fact, I believe that his continued struggles are probably rationalized in his mind by your A.

I agree with Dru. His use of porn and his continued relapses are creating barriers to your marital recovery. Regardless of what factors led to that "addiction", he has to make a decision on what is more important, your marriage or his continued behavior that prevents that marriage from flourishing. To me, as difficult as it is to not try and rationalize my own actions in this regard, I have to understand and realize that my use (or Cookie Monsters) of porn is no more justified by my FWW's A than her A would have been justified if as Cookie Monster has done I had been replacing the marital intimacy with the false intimacy of the porn. I am starting to wonder now if the guilt that Cookie Monster may have felt from his contributions to the marital breakdown leading up to the A which appears certainly to have included the porn use are part of the reason why he seemed to take the news of the A so good...remembering one of first posts where we stated that Cookie Monster was a man of men or some such.

If you have the heart to heart that Dru has suggested, I would relay my own personal thoughts as coming from someone who can relate to many of what he has gone through. We have many similarities, Cookie Monster and me. The porn use has to stop once and for all. It is no more acceptable for this to continue than for you to decide that an occassional meeting with FOM is okay e.g. KiwiJ after no contact has been established. But it will take both of you to beat this demon and I can't think of many that I would rather have helping me through that process than you. Be there for him to give him the support and strength to do what is right but put all your transgressions of the past aside as you are no longer involved in those. You have to draw the line in the sand and then help keep him from crossing.

NT