Love Buster,

First you have no kids.
Second you have only been married 1.5 years.
This should be the honey moon phase.
I know you have been together for 6 years.

You should sit down and decide if you can deal with what is to come.
Two years is the number that floats around as far as trying to recover after the A has ended.
Are you willing to go through 2 years to save a M that is only 1.5 years old.
Even better question do you think your WW does.
You cannot make her do anything. Maybe there has been too much damage done.

After an A is exposed the BS has self worth issues and this is what you are going through right now. You are not at fault here. You have some tough decesions but look at it like a job. It is a lot easier to leave when you have only been there for 1.5 years. No retirement, small 401 k, not much vacation time etc. After 15 years you have to think about those things before you leave.

Real good points... HL...

Lovebuster...please remember my advice comes through my own mind's filter.

You have to decide this for yourself as to what is best. You ARE married, but not a lot of strings attached otherwise.

Be aware that the danger here could be "keeping this all together" until there ARE strings, kids, etc.

Decide firmly what you want, and go from there, and give yourself time to decide if needed...

CJ

hurtingless and CJ_ShookUP,


Thanks for your "reality checks", I apreciate them. I have asked myself the same things.

I know my marriage had a bad start (in one of our shouting matches I asked her why the h3ll she married me if she felt this bad about it and even had doubts before marriage. This happened before I knew about MB, by the way). We were foolish to think marrying would solve our problems magically. But I KNOW we can be great together. We've had a wonderful 3 years together before marriage, and I just don't want to end it like this. We both deserve better.

I know we have no "assets" as it is often called here, but for now I still love her and I am willing to work on my side of the problems. I know that she will leave if she wants to, and I have no control over this in the end.

No, I don't quite feel like dating her outside of our M again. The suggestion is almost an insult to me. No, I don't want to be "just friends" (although this is something WW expressed as the preferred next step for her). I told her that if our M is over I can't be friends with her. That I want her as my wife, and nothing else.

I just see it like this: plan A is for me. It won't hurt, it will only help me grow. If it is not in this marriage, it will give the next marriage a big head start. I for one know that I would never start another marriage without the principles shown by Dr. Harley and MB. So whatever happens, I will become a better man and my next relationship will benefit from this, even if it isn't with my W.

WW is with me for now, it will probably be several more weeks before she can move out, and meanwhile we'll see what happens. I feel confident I can hold out a little longer. Agreed, the way she treats me recently causes big withdrawals from her LB account.

Today she was just silent and down. I asked her if she wanted to talk about it and out came all these LBs. Angry outburts, DJs, the works. I now recognize them for what they are though, that helps. I have tried telling her how they made me feel and that I didn't want to talk with her this way. This however infuriates her even more. It's all because "these horrible books and that horrible website you're constantly looking at", as she puts it. Yes, I have been reading SAA. At least I'm doing something constructive :-P

No matter what I do, nothing is good enough for her. If I don't talk I'm ignoring her, if I do talk all I get is insults, which I just can't handle at the moment coming from her. Then I break off the conversation and say that I feel now is not a good time to discuss these things and that I am willing to continue talking once we both calm down.

Just now she came out of our bedroom and asked me to try talking again, and the first thing she does is more angry outburts. Should I just undergo them? Breaking off the conversation seems to make her even more furious. I'm just afraid I will LB if I don't break it off. She doesn't seem to see that she is now treating me exactly the way I treated her. And when I tell her how her way of talking makes me feel (in a calm, respectful manner) she responds even more hostile.

Anything I share with her regarding things I've learnt from this website and the books just seems to push her even further away from me. They have given me so much insight and she just refuses to even look at them. That is very very frustrating. She even called me a "psychopath" in a mail to her sister.

I said to her that we would have to live together for at least a little while longer and that it would be nice if we could at least stay civil during that time and try to respect each other.

How long did withdrawal take again ... ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Ok I am a little confused.

You had a wonderful 3 years before marriage?
That leaves 1.5 years unaccounted for.
Is that the 1.5 years right before you were married?

I am not telling you to walk away but the ties that bind here seem very weak.

I will be honest with you. If I didn't have kids I would have had to buy new shoes when she told me she had an A. I would have run so far and so fast it would have worn out the ones I was wearing.

I would not have looked back at all.

The other reason is that Kids make life more difficult on an M. Let face it you have less time together and it is hard to be all lovey dovey when you are changing diapers etc. If it is hard before you have kids it will be harder after.

I hope this helps. I am not telling you to leave her but maybe she was in love with the "idea" of being married.

hurtingless,

I'm not counting the "dating" time here, I was talking about the time we spent living together during which things went very well. It indeed went down hill almost immediately after actually getting married.

It wasn't hard at all during the "good times", it all went effortless. We just weren't aware at all of how everything we did affected our love for each other. And when some of our most important ENs were no longer met, it got even worse when LBing started.

In that respect this A has been a real wake up call (at least for me), because once I realized I wasn't ready to give up I started to REALLY try yo get to the bottom of why things didn't work between us anymore.

Quite frankly I am a bit offended by your remark of how you would have handled things. You never were in that situation so you don't KNOW how you would have reacted. You can only theorize. Dr. Harley states that most people say they would dump their spouse when asked what they would do if they found out he/she was having an A. He also states that in reality most people don't do this.

Ok I was a little confused about the time line.
So you had 3 great years living together and 1.5 of marriage. Plus 1.5 years of dating.
So you had 4.5 great years.

I applaud your effort for self improvement. That in itself will make you a better person regardless of what the outcome of your current situation is. If you realize your own faults then you are less likely to keep acting the same way.

I did not mean to offend you. Even Harley states that without children it might be easier to walk away. I meant no offense nor did I mean to make your situation into anything that is easy to deal with.

As far as knowing if I would have left her I do know that. I really honestly do. The only thing that has kept me here for a good duration is the kids. I knew I would have a hard time dealing with the A and quite frankly if there weren't other lives at stake I would not have had the fortitude to keep trying.

They gave me a big enough reason to try to work it out. This is on me as a person. I have never stayed with a women that dated other men even when we weren't exclusive.

Again I did not mean to make light of the tough time you are having.

I have thought things over and used POJA on my own feelings, and decided that I indeed don't want to work on our R in a state of D. That I don't want to be "just friends" with her, but that I want her as my wife. I will not negotiate about that.

This morning I've told WW this again, and explained that I couldn't lie to myself and pretend I could live with her conditions. I just don't have enough LUs left in my bank for that. She cried "manipulation" again, but it wasn't as strong this time. I must be meeting some ENs because she does want me as a friend, and the idea that a D will end that once and for all didn't seem to attract her much.

I think in our case it's best if I or she moves out for a while so the pressure isn't so big. She wants to actively choose to continue with me and she feels she can't do this at the moment because my mere presence and obvious intention to save our M causes pressure.

I know I've been pushing too hard. I need to focus more on me instead of us. I need to fix the LBs and stop the abuse. Until that is achieved there can be no honesty between us. Doing this is probably easier when we're not living together, feeling this pressure all the time. She's a nervous wreck at the moment.

I explained this to her and she seemed to calm down and soften a bit. She promised to not decide on a D until me or she at least moved out and tried how that felt for a while. The thought of having to support herself financially seems to cause enormous pressure too, it looks like she has been very worried about this aspect of ending our M, and it seems that has gotten worse the last few days.

I know there is a risk with the A flaring up again but frankly this is not my biggest concern right now. Any time I can buy for now is welcome, especially if I don't have to violate POJA for it.

Hi LB,

I read the exchange above, and i just wanted to say, although you don't have kids etc, it seems to me that you want your marriage. If this is the case...you're in the right place...you'll need to make a firm commitment to your plan. Absolutely your choice.

Other than that I would simply consider yourself lucky that if this doesn't work out...this only affects you and your W. This is a blessing.

This might be obvious, but keep this blessing...don't have kids right now until full recovery...don't enter into any financial contracts, obligations, etc.

So I'll continue under the assumption that we are into "saving" mode. You can always re-evaluate, Harley recommends Plan A for six months (for men, 3 for women) and then take stock, and consider Plan B.

It seems you're doing well, and really getting in touch with what you need to be happy, and being honest with your feelings, with you and your marriage...this is a noble pursuit! Good on ya!

This morning I've told WW this again, and explained that I couldn't lie to myself and pretend I could live with her conditions. I just don't have enough LUs left in my bank for that. She cried "manipulation" again, but it wasn't as strong this time. I must be meeting some ENs because she does want me as a friend, and the idea that a D will end that once and for all didn't seem to attract her much.

Bingo! You are not allowing her to eat cake, she can't have you and the rest of the world, OM, also. Now D isn't so rosy? Hmmm, interesting, eh? What does that reaction mean to you? How did this make you feel? Did you see your W (not WW) again in that brief moment? How's she doin'? Good job!

This is not "manipulation", it is being respectful to yourself, and respectful to her. You are being open and honest to the both of you...your are merely stating your feelings...this is different than demanding, or invalidating hers, see?

I've heard the "you're controlling" speech so many times, but when you are honest and don't DJ...there is NOTHING to argue about...and they know it, but very often they will try, simply b/c your honesty is opposing what they are demanding from you. It confuses the he11 out of them...keep truckin'. Listen and repeat. Ask for clarification of what she means.

If things get too tempered...learn to say,"I won't tolerate us talking to each other disrespectfully, I want to talk to you about this stuff, it is important to me, but if it continues, I will leave the room."

Then learn to leave the room. This isn't giving up, this is being respectful to yourself, and asking your W to respect you as well, without demands. Your tone is important, be loving, not angry.

I've heard that speaking quietly during a tough convo sometimes will influence the other person to stopp yelling and listen... (hasn't worked too well for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> , but sometimes it does!)

I think in our case it's best if I or she moves out for a while so the pressure isn't so big. She wants to actively choose to continue with me and she feels she can't do this at the moment because my mere presence and obvious intention to save our M causes pressure.
Of course it causes pressure! Sure is tough to carry on an A, OR a (possibly secret) second life of ANY kind when living with a newly awakened betrayed S! Your presence often good for your marriage...but WS's hate it...every time!

You see, the MB plan is to meet ENs and eliminate LBs. It will much harder to display these things when you are apart. Secondly, there is a much higher chance of the A continuing or strengthening when apart. Usually when the WS "needs space" they want to continue their second life without your interference. They will demand their privacy, and accuse you of controlling them.

So give her her space, but I suggest do it within the home. Work on your stuff, and remove as much pressure as you can...adding pressure when she is in the FOG will be an ANNOYING BEHAVIOR. Note also that you still speak your truth, and don't condone the A in any way.

I need to fix the LBs and stop the abuse. Until that is achieved there can be no honesty between us. Doing this is probably easier when we're not living together, feeling this pressure all the time. She's a nervous wreck at the moment.
This is where I worry, to bring your W back to a state of intimacy, she needs to SEE your changes. Sure, separation will stop LB's, cuz your not there to do them! And she'll remember you ONLY from before your changes. As she ruminates alone, she may fuel her desire to leave with exaggerations of your shortcomings...unaffectionately referred to here as "rewriting history".

You bet she's a nervous wreck. Not within your control to fix, so you don't need to try. These are the consequences of HER actions. Don't get in the way of her consequences, they are hers... only own what is yours...work on LBs and ENs! It is a DJ shield your wife from her consquences, and telling her this alright is being dishonest to her and to yourself!!

On the other hand if she wants to leave, you can't stop her, not within your control. There is varying opinions here about "helping" WS's move when this might enable the affair, providing money, etc. If she separates this early you'll have to decide on whether to Plan A from afar...

If you really are enthusiastic about her leaving, then this is POJA. Are you? No judgement, just something to think about.

I know there is a risk with the A flaring up again but frankly this is not my biggest concern right now.
If the A flares up again, chances are that your marriage will not survive. The time you buy may be at your expense. Sorry if this is harsh, I'm rooting for you, but this is typically what we see here!

I worried about you, LB. You changed your mind (to her) about D, and now if my speech makes you think twice about separation, you'll have changed your mind again (to her).

Sometimes the legal system favors the spouse that stays...but often this is related to child custody...

I'll just suggest that if you are unsure about how you feel about something she proposes or you two discuss, make sure you are comfortable with it...if you need time to explore yourself for YOUR answers, TAKE THE TIME. Sometimes separation IS healthy for a marriage, but from what I've learned here, adding adultry to this mix changes the motivation for separation.

Say,"I'm not sure right now. I will make it my priority to think about this (D, separation) for the sake of our marriage."

This is respectful to both of you, and honest, as long as it is YOUR truth! It is important that you stay CONSISTENT, with your viewpoints with her, so that she can respect you. And you deserve respect!

Take your time with these big decisions...and post here! The experts here are AWESOME!! They know what does and doesn't work...and more importantly WHY!!

Just my $2...I freely admit I'm no counselor...just some things to think about...keep searching and learning, read some opposing views if you like...and own your choices!

Cheering you on!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

CJ

Hi CJ,


To me the reaction means she's not shutting the door on me just yet, so there must be SOMETHING left she still needs/wants from me. I just hope it's not just financial support. I don't see WW too often anymore, it mostly seems to be W again, but only as long as the conversation stays "neutral".

As far as I can tell there hasn't been any real contact with OM since the second exposure day.


I tried and tried to negotiate about her not moving out, but that's just not working. I offered other options, none of them have been good enough so far. She says she's been thinking about moving out for a long time and has her mind set on it, because she doesn't love me anymore. And when I try to tell her that it's possible to fix that, she just thinks I'm pushing her again, that I want to keep her here and refuse to let her go.


Yes, but whenever I try to explain any of these concepts she shuts me out. She does NOT want to hear them. She says she thinks it's best for us if she moves out and works on herself, I work on myself, establishing boundaries she's comfortable with and trying to regain her self-confidence. She says she's definitely not planning on not seeing me any more, she just doesn't see our house as "safe" any more.


The only way she can afford to move out is for me to provide money for her. She's looking for a job, but until she has one the only other option for her to get money is to get a D, because then she can get money from social security.

As far as I can tell the A is not active any more. She still doesn't know how I track her contact and I sometimes "fake" where I get the info from.

She says she honestly thinks it's better for us if she moves out for a while, to "find" herself. As far as I can tell she definitely believes this, she seemed sincere.


No, not enthusiastic, but what choice do I have? It's her choice in the end, I can communicate how I feel about it and explain my arguments against moving out, but that's about it. She says I don't have to worry about lack of contact because she doesn't hate me, she says still wants to do fun stuff with me.
She's not ready to POJA herself, the whole concept seems to annoy her.

At the moment she only thinks about herself and since she doesn't love me anymore there is no us to consider. She does let me be affectionate with her now and then, but she says she's doing this to find out if she still feels anything for me, if it still "works" for her. So far she says she doesn't feel much of anything, that she's completely "empty" and numb.

Bah, someone please stop me because I keep wanting to negotiate and use POJA on her leaving but she's just not interested in discussing any alternatives.

I think I'm violating the rule of protection here. I think me constantly bringing up this subject is a LB to her.

I need to focus on me, not us. I'll just have to let it go, it's her decision. I need to stop LBs!

POJA is based on enthusiastic agreement. It sounds like your WW is a fence sitter and isn't going to enthusiastically agree to getting off the fence right now.

Letting her go is not a good idea but enough people have said that already.

If the subject you keep bringing up is her not leaving I don't see how that can be an LB.

Realize that you do need to focus on yourself because no matter how this ends you need to come out a better stronger person.

You cannot make the decesion for her but you can make the decesion harder for her. It is harder to walk away from something that is really good.

I know I said in the past I would run what I didn't tell you is my FWW admitted that if we didn't have kids she would have left. Not to be with OM but because she didn't like being around me as a source of pain. She loved me but couldn't bare looking at the pain I was in because of her actions. Just food for thought.

I'm not letting her go as in agreeing that she leaves, but when she leaves she leaves.

We are married and I am obliged by Dutch law to support her financially if she can't provide for herself. And the obligation to live together has been dropped from the law. Also, I think trying to stop her by withdrawing financial support will be a major LB to her. That's something she would expect of me, since I want to "control" her, "keep" her in a marriage she doesn't want any more.

She keeps telling me I'm pressuring her by constantly bringing up the subject. She says my behaviour annoys her a lot and it only makes her want to leave even more.

And when I tell her this pressure is caused by me not being emotionally OK with her leaving, that it will instantly become less if she stops pursueing a course of action I can't enthusiastically agree with, she just says "I don't see it that way.". And then the angry outbursts start ("I really don't care about how YOU feel at the moment.") and we're done talking.

You may be right about the pain thing. I just have a hard time these last few days staying positive, and it must be showing.

What do you mean by "fence sitter"? She has her mind set on one particular course of action and nothing will be able to change it? That does sound like my W at the moment, yes.

Hi LB...

It sounds like you are in a lot of pain right now... I feel for you...this is ALL too familiar!!

Sorry I don't have much time to post right now, and I didn't check here much today, but I have a busy night to get to....

Let me just say that I understand how hopeless you must feel right now...I have BEEN there, and this is how I continue on my bad days...but with practice and training, it gets better...emotions are powerful!!! They make us do irrational things...

...like LB!! Concentrate, focus on you, if it is too much...go out, find a friend, do something fun. When you are feeling weak, give yourself a break.

THIS IS ALL NORMAL!! (not sure if this is what you wanted to hear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but give yourself some TIME to collect and focus)



And I know it's hard, it takes a lot of unlearning...and relearning.


You are doing fine, YOU are!! These are powerful feelings being dealt with...

Keep posting...it will help you learn the tools for dealing with these emotions...there are perspectives on this great forum that just floor me with their directness, logic...


...AND COMFORT.



...Do you believe you are doing the right thing by trying to save your marriage? Be proud of yourself!!! Not everyone can do this...some just quit!!

So embrace these consequences...for now...they are the result of your noble choice, made by you, for you, for your beliefs, values, and dignity.

Dignity. You have it, LB. It influences this choice...to stay...to fight...

Dignity implies respect, respect for yourself, (IMPORTANT!!) respect for your W, respect for the limits of your control...

Keep your head up, yes, no LB's, spend this time learning all you can, try to meet needs where you can, no clingy stuff...no teaching...

I recommending reading Dobson's "Love must be Tough". check it out, useful stuff.

I try to post later...and I'll respond to your post better...concentrate on your plan...find a support group (family, friends) that will help you...

You can do this. HUGE support group here!

CJ

She keeps telling me I'm pressuring her by constantly bringing up the subject. She says my behaviour annoys her a lot and it only makes her want to leave even more.

And when I tell her this pressure is caused by me not being emotionally OK with her leaving, that it will instantly become less if she stops pursueing a course of action I can't enthusiastically agree with, she just says "I don't see it that way.". And then the angry outbursts start ("I really don't care about how YOU feel at the moment.") and we're done talking.

You may be right about the pain thing. I just have a hard time these last few days staying positive, and it must be showing.


You just described how I spent last January, and XMAS. To a tee. Hang in there, I see if I can help when i post later...

CJ

CJ,

Just read your threads and I must say... wow. The replies from LovingAnyway about DJs seem to completely apply to me too.

I just realise how deeply DJs are embedded in my life, in lots of things I say. Man, it's going to be hard to get rid of them. Any tips on how to recognize them and get rid of them? Is it a good idea to apologize to my W if I notice I've been using one?

Just wanted to wish you the best and thank you for your support here.

Hi LB,

I was away all day at a company party...again I don't have much time to post...

I just realise how deeply DJs are embedded in my life, in lots of things I say. Man, it's going to be hard to get rid of them.

YEP. Most of us were taught this way of behaving, unfortunately, LB's just don't work, although they are tightly ingrained.

I would say that the best way to understand DJ's is to buy "Eliminating Love Busters" and keep reading this site - the forums AND the main site. Give it a chance to sink in...

Also it helps a LOT to get feedback on your postings here, responses to convos you are having with your wife, ways you can improve, actions you can take...strategies that are tailored JUST FOR YOU!!!

I still want to get to your post earlier to help with this...getting late here, hopefully the following will help for now...

To get a jump start...realize that many situations that you are facing, others have had in common with you, a LOT of this stuff can be pretty generic...

The replies from LovingAnyway about DJs seem to completely apply to me too.
YEP...generic...same and different...

I would say that LovingAnyway picks up where Harley left off...and takes LB's to another level...where you integrate SELF, inner child, emotional sourcing and dealing, and RESPECT for you and your W.

LA is the QUEEN when it comes to this stuff!!!!

The best way is experience, read all you can here... here are the links to some particularly good threads to get you going...read and reread...it is DEEP...takes a while to sink in where she is coming from...but when you GET IT, you'll know.

213601
brokenbird


Do a username search and look for LA...to find other threads...

Is it a good idea to apologize to my W if I notice I've been using one?

My guess is that there is a balance here. If you apologize too much you run the risk of W losing her respect for you, but if you DON'T apologize when you LB, well that sends a message that you don't care...

...and we can't have THAT! haha!

Just be sure that when you apologize, it is for the right reasons. That you REALLY did treat your W unfairly or disrespectfully for the instance you are apologizing for. NOW I would say, no wimpy apologies, no tears pleading...just lovingly, assertive, direct, confident and without expectation...you needn't try to wait and see if she will respond with something wonderful that you want to hear...

...The payoff is in the apology itself...knowing you are pure, that you did the right thing, that you are growing, and AT that instant, you supported your relationship with her... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Independent Behavior:
"I am sorry I came home late last night, I feel dissapointed I made this mistake, because I really wanted to spend this time with you."

Smile WARMLY, make eye contact, hang for a moment, then either change the subject, do something nice for her on the spot, or leave.

Note,"I feel disappointed...". "I feel...", "I believe..." statements. Wonderful! Why? Because they are NOT arguable! "I feel [emotion of your choice]..." Only you know what you are feeling LB, only you can read your mind...everyone knows this...and it is NOT accusing, demanding, or disrespectful in any way, it is simply a statement!

WS will often STILL argue b/c your statements can feel threatening...don't worry about it, expressing your feelings is open and honest...needed for your W to find her way back...to you.

Here's a theory, what do you think of this? For a situation to merit an apology, the apology must be respectful of:

1. your wife
2. you
3. the marriage

1. your wife - b/c if you've LB'd your wife has been wronged, or at least been put in a position hurts her feelings for you

2. you - don't DJ yourself or your W JUST to try to get your W's favor...that's manipulation. You do not apologize out of hurt, fear

3. you needn't apologize for things that you are doing to save your marriage, view the marriage as a separate entity from you and your W, respect your beliefs, and right now, your marriage comes b4 YOU and your W. This is why people do the Harley Plan A/B!!! To save what's most important to them! Exposure, for example, does NOT get apologized for!

OK I wrote this quick, this theory may have some holes. LB, anything to share, what did I miss?

But you know the VERY best way you can apologize...learn from these encounters, learn to change your behavior, absorb what works and what doesn't...

...AND LET HER SEE YOUR *NEW* ACTIONS!!!!

Just wanted to wish you the best and thank you for your support here.
Thanks! No prob!

New behavior is infectious, LB, spread this new disease of love and respect! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi LB,

can I call you "LBee" for short, so we don't confuse the "LB" meaning "lovebuster"? (rather than your name...) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

so there must be SOMETHING left she still needs/wants from me. I just hope it's not just financial support.
Don't worry about this for now, anything that keeps her home where she can see your changes is good...

it mostly seems to be W again, but only as long as the conversation stays "neutral".
Yeah, this is typical...when things are "safe", they are happy, keep things as safe as you can, minimize relationship talk...but when R talk comes up, be clear and concise, you can disagree and be honest without LB'ing...check the "I feel..." statements above!

I tried and tried to negotiate about her not moving out, but that's just not working.
How's this goin', LBee? Unfortunately, you can't MAKE HER stay...this is up to her, but you can disagree, nothing wrong with that...don't focus on the RESULTS of your discussions, focus on what you are doing to stand up for your marriage...

Yes, but whenever I try to explain any of these concepts she shuts me out. She does NOT want to hear them.
She's not ready to hear this LBee. Don't "teach" her, it's disrespectful. Give her time, in time your new behavior may get her interested in what you have learned...educating her will make her feel like you believe that she is inferior, and if you sound too "clinical", it can get in the way of her empathy. Too often I have seen here were WS's accuse MB's as being part of a "cult", or accuse BS's of simply finding books, etc, that "happen" to support our beliefs...and they are partly right...what they miss is the MB principles are PROVEN to work!

Work your Plan, LBee, WS won't be receptive until they wanna be...

she just thinks I'm pushing her again, that I want to keep her here and refuse to let her go.
Yes. Are you pushing her? Most of us do...I sure did. Don't push, but state what you feel, standing up for your marriage is good, try to minimize anger when she disagrees, you can do all of this without LB'ing!

Yes, but whenever I try to explain any of these concepts she shuts me out. She does NOT want to hear them. She says she thinks it's best for us if she moves out and works on herself, I work on myself, establishing boundaries she's comfortable with and trying to regain her self-confidence. She says she's definitely not planning on not seeing me any more, she just doesn't see our house as "safe" any more.
Yep. Don't teach. Be safe for her. She believes it's best to move out...LBee, remember, she may be wrong!! Can't change her belief, only she can. You can change you, and this can have a powerful effect on her. What do you believe? You are kicking but cuz your standing up for your belief, she'll respect you for it, or not. The point is, make sure you respect YOU for it. Work on being safe for now, she's trying to help you in your quest...see?

No, not enthusiastic, but what choice do I have? It's her choice in the end, I can communicate how I feel about it and explain my arguments against moving out, but that's about it.
Yes, this is true...try not to worry...work your plan, if she goes...she may realize what she misses when you aren't around...GIVE HER SOMETHING TO MISS!!!! If you separate, you'll need to decide if you've given Plan A a good enough go, and either Plan A from afar, or go to Plan B.

She says she's definitely not planning on not seeing me any more, she says still wants to do fun stuff with me
Good clue here...these statements are contradicting...see? She is confused, her battle, not yours. She knows there is good about you...she doesn't know what she wants...relish in this, let her get over the anger from exposure, and let her do this work, you shouldn't (and can't) do this for her! Plan some FUN STUFF!

At the moment she only thinks about herself and since she doesn't love me anymore there is no us to consider. She does let me be affectionate with her now and then, but she says she's doing this to find out if she still feels anything for me, if it still "works" for her. So far she says she doesn't feel much of anything, that she's completely "empty" and numb.
Well said. WS's are very selfish, it's a protection mechanism, from their guilt, from their withdrawal, and from your PAST behavior. And remember, the guilt invariably causes them to amplify our, wrongdoings, makes it easier, see? They rewrite history. What do you remember, though...as bad as she says? Focus on what she says as INFORMATION...useful to you, for Plan A, and realize that some of her accusations might be hogwash. Let her find out if she feels something, but don't do it too often, or she might jump to conclusions...add some mystery...do the dance...you need to "date" her again..I'll bet you didn't act clingy when you were trying to date her...gotta grab her intrigue...she won't be able to judge well until she's out of the fog, she won't be able to reconnect until she's through withdrawal.

Her bag of weenies. Keep going LBee, your doing fine, focus on the Plan, enjoy your W when you can, and respect yourself, no reason not to is there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You are improving and learning, sometimes tragedy bears some gifts, y'know?

Take care...

CJ

Bah, someone please stop me because I keep wanting to negotiate and use POJA on her leaving but she's just not interested in discussing any alternatives.
It's hard for a couple to POJA when one person doesn't care how the other feels...the ONLY way your WW will feel good about the guilt is to become indifferent to you, see? Her problem, not yours... don't expect her to take your feelings into account right now...

You can still safely mention the alternatives with out LB'ing and pressure....

I think I'm violating the rule of protection here. I think me constantly bringing up this subject is a LB to her. Perhaps...seems to me that the Rule of P, and the other rules, are best when both people are participating, but be the good example! Constantly bringing up the subject is "annoying behavior", your spot on!

Good job!

Well, my W has been going full speed ahead on moving out. She got offered an apartment, she's got a job so she can pay for it, the works.

She needs to do a lot of work on it before she can live there though. The previous inhabitants mistreated the walls...

I asked her if she would have an open mind towards any alternative I tried to offer and she just said "Probably not.". She told me for her this is the only way there can ever be an "us" again. I acknowledged her feelings and said it was hard for me to accept this but that the choice is hers to make.

I do believe there is NC at the moment, and she told me several times how she realised that things wouldn't work between her and OM. Don't know what to think of this. Can foggy WSs explain all this without blinking an eye? She never was very good at lying...

I've joined her to look at the apartment and it felt really strange / wrong to be there.

Now she's asking for my help in getting the apartment ready. I must say I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I'd like to help and on the other hand I'm not sure I can handle being there.

Meanwhile we are scheduling time for fun stuff, took her out for dinner last night and it was quite enjoyable. She's quite pleasant at the moment. Somehow this raises red flags, I don't know why. Maybe because I don't see withdrawal. She did just tell me she cries a lot at night, because she just feels like crap, but I don't see that because I'm sleeping in the guest room at the moment.

I'm learning a lot about myself by reading other peoples threads. I'm hoping that her moving out removes some pressure for both of us.

I feel a lot of pressure from MYSELF because I SO much want to fix things, make things better again. I KNOW I have no control over the situation. I just don't FEEL it yet.

I can own my own part though. My W filled in the LB questionaire with me, it pretty much matched with what I had identified as the major issues for me (DJs, SDs). Nice to know that I am capable of introspection!

I'm not going to plan B for now unless I get proof of the A continueing. My W will at least let me meet some of her ENs, which is great.