Hi LBee...

So sorry to hear this, this must be so difficult right now...

Now she's asking for my help in getting the apartment ready. I must say I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I'd like to help and on the other hand I'm not sure I can handle being there.
OK well obviously this sucks, but you may gain points by helping. By not helping, she may think you are weak emotionally...I can't help but think of the example in SAA where the H helped his WW move...it seems to me that Harley encouraged this...a chance for the H to meet EN's...in Plan A. Obviously now she HAS done the heavy lifting to move...she's gonna do it with or without your help...so may as well not LB by sayin' NO! This is different than agreeing to it, see. Respecting her decision is supporting it. I know this must be insanely painful...

Other MBers, thoughts?

Always lots of opinions on this point, esp when the A is aided in any way...but I would say that LB's are in the eye of the beholder...I'd look through her point of view here...doesn't mean you have to pretend your not bothered by this...just don't get wimpy and clingy, you can state your feelings matter-of-fact.


Meanwhile we are scheduling time for fun stuff, took her out for dinner last night and it was quite enjoyable. She's quite pleasant at the moment.
GOOD! Let her time with you be PLEASANT!!

Somehow this raises red flags, I don't know why. Maybe because I don't see withdrawal.
Perhaps there is no withdrawal. That would be in your favor. Perhaps she is "protecting" you by hiding her feelings... Or sadly, she is still in contact...what are you doing to snoop? If you know the truth...you'll know better how to act...

Whatever it is...it is HERS HERS HERS!!! Let her sort it out for herself...remember your hero's journey, that you are doing what many aren't capable of! Stand up for you and your marriage, and be PROUD OF IT!! And let it SHOW! Who knows she might like it!

Sounds like you are doing well, (although I know how this feels) keeping your Plan A sounds good, esp if she is willing to let you meet her needs...

Watch your health, you may want to look into anti-depressents for this...

Take care,

CJ

Yes, I've read and re-read that part of SAA. Harley definitely was counseling the H at that time it seems, so that would make sense. Harley did prepare H for disappointment though.


I have done this. She said she understood my feelings and respected them. She said I didn't have to do it if I didn't feel up to it.

Funny, she said a few times she felt indifferent to me but some of her actions and other things she says don't show indifference at all.


I can watch everything she does on the Internet, I can see her mobile phone bill online, I can monitor calls through our home phone. She lets me check her computer and cell phone history if I tell her I had a bad moment and would like some reassurance. So far no inconsistencies.


Yes, I've learnt this. Hard to do, sometimes I still feel very scared, other times I actually feel better and less anxious.


Who knows! If she doesn't, too bad for her!


That's what I figured! I'm reading a lot of LovingAnyways posts and am learning a lot from them. I don't always like the lessons though...


Thanks, for now I think I can manage.

Today WW called me at work. It seemed she only wanted to do chit chat, and I was rather busy with a co-worker and I couldn't really talk. I explained this to her. After that she said "Fine!" and hung up on me. Sigh.

One thing she told me was that she probably wasn't going to the gym today. Well, that was good news because today was one of OMs days. OM and WW go to the same gym and so far she hasn't agreed on going to a different gym, only to not go at the same time OM goes there. She also told me she wasn't having dinner with me today because she was busy working in the new apartment.

Half an hour later I tried to call her on her mobile phone, but it was switched off. She usually does that when she's at the gym, so I got suspicious. I decided to drive to the gym and see if she was there. Well, she was there, and OMs car was also there.

I took a seat somewhere where I could watch the people going in and out without being seen myself. I sat for about 1.5 hours, then WW came out. A few minutes later OM came out of the gym too.

After this I drove home to get some food. About half an hour later WW arrived home. I told her I had tried to call her from work when I had some more time but noticed her phone was switched off.

WW: "It's off? Oh. It switches itself off more often lately, strange isn't it?"

Me: "That's odd. Perhaps it's time for a new phone."

WW: "Perhaps it just ran out of batteries."

Me: "Ah, well, the charger is right here so you can charge them now."

WW: "Nah, don't need the phone now."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

After some questions about what she did after she called me at work she told me she had gone to the gym. So I asked if she had met OM.

WW: "Yeah, I only went for a short time. We didn't really talk."

Me: "I thought you weren't going to the gym today?"

WW: "I said perhaps."

Me: "But isn't this the time OM always goes?"

WW: "Yes, like I said, he was only there for a short time."

Me: "It hurts me when you have any contact with OM. Can you please try going to the gym at different times or days?"

WW: "I told you I would try it, but I can't help it if he's there, can I? Besides, we only say hello and we don't talk or anything. It's over between us, remember?"

And so on. Sigh. It all seems like fog talk and half-truths to me.

I wonder what her plan is. She doesn't want to work on the M because she says she doesn't love me any more. She wants to live apart from me because she says she feels pressure when she's here. She does seem to want to do "fun stuff" with me. She does want my financial support. She says she first wants to see how we get along before working on our M. She wants my help with getting her settled in the apartment.

As far as I can tell these are the only times they have contact. I'm pretty sure she thinks her computer is safe if she keeps clearing her browser history, delete her sent items and relevant incoming mail etc. She also doesn't know I have access to her online mobile phone bill. Since she's so busy with the apartment now (together with a mutual friend) I know she certainly hasn't met him during the last couple of days, except at the gym.

"I wonder what her plan is. She doesn't want to work on the M because she says she doesn't love me any more. She wants to live apart from me because she says she feels pressure when she's here. She does seem to want to do "fun stuff" with me. She does want my financial support. She says she first wants to see how we get along before working on our M. "

Do you think your WW has a twin? Does she look like my WW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ONLY difference has been that my WW has been unable to move...

CAKE-EATING!!!!!!!!

Sigh, this stuff is very tough...hang in there...you seem to be on top of things!

Good job on not being fooled! Your doing really well...

Gotta go, I'll check with you soon...

CJ

I'm soooo frustrated with my WW at the moment.

I'm pretty much sure that there is NC with OM. She hasn't gone to the gym for quite a while (it has been very hot here for weeks and she doesn't sleep well at night). My exposure has had the desired effect with OM. It looks like he realised he didn't need all that crap.

WW just doesn't want to commit to our marriage or relationship. Yesterday she sent me an e-mail telling me she misses our house and our garden and me (in that order). She misses "the way we were together". I only need to change a few things that made her unhappy and then everything will be fine (according to her).

Any hint towards getting better negotiating and communication skills just gets me a "I don't like analyzing everything to death" response. If I use "I hear you say" type of statements she gets annoyed. "Don't talk to me like that, I have trouble not laughing when you do that".
So, should I stop using "listen and repeat", since she seems to consider it an LB?

She doesn't want to read any relationship books. She doesn't want to go to counseling with me. She doesn't want to do "psycho babble", as she calls it. In short, she only wants to do what she feels is right without getting any external advice whatsoever. She still thinks the instinctive way of doing things will work just fine, whereas I am convinced that it is NOT going to work fine (it sure didn't work fine before!).

For my own safety, one of my boundaries is that I will only allow WW to live with me again if she agrees to apply MB principles to our new relationship. And this is something she just doesn't want to do. She thinks all Harleys ideas are way too extreme (POJA, 15 hours of UA, radical honesty, etc.). However, she hasn't read the MB website at all, nor any of the books, so the only thing she goes on is the few things I told about the principles. I really think it's better if she just read this stuff herself, but she says she hates reading that kind of stuff and she just wants us to try and figure it out ourselves.

Am I correct in saying that this is a boundary (and hence non-negotiable)?

Another thing: she says one of the reasons she doesn't want to commit to the M is that she's ashamed of me because I exposed to some of her friends. She says "these friends will think I'm crazy if I go back to you after what you did.". At this moment I thought "DJ towards friends" (didn't say it though, since that would be a DJ by me!). So I told her I have stopped trying to worry about what other people might think, and decided to live by my beliefs instead. After that I asked if this friend gave her some indication that they though I was crazy. She admitted to this. So I asked which friend it was. Then she told me she didn't want to tell me. I asked her why not, and she said "just because". I felt hurt by this response, and said "I'm hurt that you choose to not tell me this without giving any reason." She said "I'm still not going to tell you."

ARGH! Just so many things about WW that frustrate me now. It's hard to stay nice when every conversation leads to this kind of crap.

So, just planning some light fun this weekend. Tomorrow we'll shop together and watch a TV series we recorded, and on sunday we're going to see a movie.

Next weekend we are going to my sisters house. She's going on vacation and she offered us their house for the weekend so we could enjoy ourselves in their state (ride bicycle and stuff).

I'm just wondering how long I can keep this up. I don't WANT to expect anything from her but I just do, I can't help it. I'm so tired of the fence sitting... If she keeps this up too long I'm going to have to go to plan B, even though OM is gone. Perhaps that will get her off the fence.

Any thoughts?

LB,

"WW just doesn't want to commit to our marriage or relationship."

What is your requirements for her recommitting to the marriage, and what are hers?

"Yesterday she sent me an e-mail telling me she misses our house and our garden and me (in that order). She misses "the way we were together". I only need to change a few things that made her unhappy and then everything will be fine (according to her)."

I can't tell what she said here and what you assumed...did she say "In that order" or was that you? Did she say, "I only need for you to change a few things and then everything will be fine in our marriage" or was that your summary?

"Any hint towards getting better negotiating and communication skills just gets me a "I don't like analyzing everything to death" response. If I use "I hear you say" type of statements she gets annoyed. "Don't talk to me like that, I have trouble not laughing when you do that"."

Acknowledging and validating is your choice...she can say, "I don't like that" and you can say, "I am choosing to truly listen to you...I didn't before. I need to now."

You can agree to disagree about your own beliefs...she may want to laugh at it, feel annoyed by it...that's hers. Your choice is yours, isn't it? Not a Love Buster...and integrity choice, isn't it? Unless you were choosing to listen and repeat to get her to do something, like respect you. What was your intent behind choosing to listen in this way?

"So, should I stop using "listen and repeat", since she seems to consider it an LB?" See my question.

"She doesn't want to read any relationship books. She doesn't want to go to counseling with me. She doesn't want to do "psycho babble", as she calls it. In short, she only wants to do what she feels is right without getting any external advice whatsoever. She still thinks the instinctive way of doing things will work just fine, whereas I am convinced that it is NOT going to work fine (it sure didn't work fine before!)."

She isn't willing to work for your marriage, correct? Are these your boundaries for you and your marriage? What are your boundary enforcements?

"For my own safety, one of my boundaries is that I will only allow WW to live with me again if she agrees to apply MB principles to our new relationship. And this is something she just doesn't want to do. She thinks all Harleys ideas are way too extreme (POJA, 15 hours of UA, radical honesty, etc.). However, she hasn't read the MB website at all, nor any of the books, so the only thing she goes on is the few things I told about the principles. I really think it's better if she just read this stuff herself, but she says she hates reading that kind of stuff and she just wants us to try and figure it out ourselves."

So is she crossing your boundary or is she making a boundary of her own? If she is choosing to go off her instincts, then you choose to not continue the marriage?

"Am I correct in saying that this is a boundary (and hence non-negotiable)?" Boundaries are around you..."If you choose to this, then I choose to do this." You are stating your feelings, thoughts and beliefs...sharing "I feel attacked when you put down MB, because I believe in MB." Correct?

"Another thing: she says one of the reasons she doesn't want to commit to the M is that she's ashamed of me because I exposed to some of her friends."

Are you clear on her feeling ashamed and you knowing it isn't because of you? Are you clear in yourself when she isn't in herself? Seems like you are super aware of DJs and I wanted to check in on the ones we do to ourselves.

And to this encounter...which went astray:

"She says "these friends will think I'm crazy if I go back to you after what you did."."

This isn't a DJ at all...this is her saying she values what other people think of her, choose to control her life that way, allows this choice to affect her decisions. Period. Her stuff, not yours. Yet you went here: "At this moment I thought "DJ towards friends" (didn't say it though, since that would be a DJ by me!)." Which I believe set you up for this: "So I told her I have stopped trying to worry about what other people might think, and decided to live by my beliefs instead." Solid statement, understated, though, because it didn't acknowledge her choice to live otherwise. Which is why I think you then fell back into proof mode...and fell out of acknowledgment: "After that I asked if this friend gave her some indication that they though I was crazy." By asking this, you disproved your own belief...asking what others think of you is not minding your own and respecting what is others' as theirs.

Then you pursued it: "She admitted to this. So I asked which friend it was. Then she told me she didn't want to tell me. I asked her why not, and she said "just because". I felt hurt by this response, and said "I'm hurt that you choose to not tell me this without giving any reason." She said "I'm still not going to tell you."

Why did you cut off your own legs, self-betray in this way...and detract from acknowledging her own choice, her power, in what she believed? Were you trying to tell yourself you don't want what others think to matter, but it does? You do live by it?

"ARGH! Just so many things about WW that frustrate me now." How about what you do frustrating you, as well?

"It's hard to stay nice when every conversation leads to this kind of crap." There is no NICE in Plan A...it is being REAL...calm, respectful, separating out the enmeshment...it is not nice, though it can look like that from the outside...your intent is to have both hands in reality at all times. Could your intent be messing you up?

"So, just planning some light fun this weekend. Tomorrow we'll shop together and watch a TV series we recorded, and on sunday we're going to see a movie." You can stay in reality and have marvelous RC time...sharing presence shares selves...great plans.

"Next weekend we are going to my sisters house. She's going on vacation and she offered us their house for the weekend so we could enjoy ourselves in their state (ride bicycle and stuff)." More great plans...what kind of expectations do you have?

"I'm just wondering how long I can keep this up. I don't WANT to expect anything from her but I just do," Do you believe you can't help your expectations, they are just are and you have no choice, no power over them?

"I can't help it." If you choose to believe you can't help it, then you are telling self that you are powerless, done to, a victim...which makes Plan A excruciatingly painful, and you're that to yourself.

"I'm so tired of the fence sitting... If she keeps this up too long I'm going to have to go to plan B, even though OM is gone. Perhaps that will get her off the fence."

Do you want a manipulative marriage or a respectful one? Are you doing all this to make your WW commit? Or are you doing this for you, for your love of living in truth and reality, living respectfully by choice? What's your premise in life, LB?

Those are my thoughts and questions...and if you would be honest and share some things..."I feel ____ when _____" would be helpful.

Thank you for being here. I pray you'll see the blessing and that you are one.

LA

Hello LA,

Thank you for your response! I'm not a native english speaker so I hope I understand what you wrote to me and that I can adequately respond to your questions and observations.

This weekend did change some of my feelings though!

"What is your requirements for her recommitting to the marriage, and what are hers?"

My requirements are a stated intent and a solid plan to guide us. My idea is to apply MB principles (not just some but all).

Her requirements are that she wants to be with me again in the first place, and that I stop LBing her (I used a lot of DJs and SDs). Since I choose to apply MB principles, this is a requirement I will gladly meet.

"Yesterday she sent me an e-mail telling me she misses our house and our garden and me (in that order). She misses "the way we were together". I only need to change a few things that made her unhappy and then everything will be fine (according to her)."

"I can't tell what she said here and what you assumed...did she say "In that order" or was that you?"

That was me.

"Did she say, "I only need for you to change a few things and then everything will be fine in our marriage" or was that your summary?"

That is what she said.

"Acknowledging and validating is your choice...she can say, "I don't like that" and you can say, "I am choosing to truly listen to you...I didn't before. I need to now."

You can agree to disagree about your own beliefs...she may want to laugh at it, feel annoyed by it...that's hers. Your choice is yours, isn't it? Not a Love Buster...and integrity choice, isn't it? Unless you were choosing to listen and repeat to get her to do something, like respect you. What was your intent behind choosing to listen in this way?"

Before I knew about MB, I would react with a DJ and/or AO a lot of times when she said something I didn't like. I choose to no longer DJ and AO. I want to stimulate honesty instead. My real intent is to state how she makes me feel when she says certain things WITHOUT using DJs or AOs. The problem is I seem to only state negative feelings this way at the moment.

"She isn't willing to work for your marriage, correct?"

At the time of writing, no. She did state intent to read HN, HN a few times, but so far she didn't want the book.

"Are these your boundaries for you and your marriage? What are your boundary enforcements?"

Yes, these are my boundaries. My enforcement will be to divorce her if keeps crossing this boundary.

""she says she hates reading that kind of stuff and she just wants us to try and figure it out ourselves."

So is she crossing your boundary or is she making a boundary of her own?"

Hmm, not sure about this one. She does state things like "If you keep doing these things there is no chance we will get together again." Is that a boundary?

If she is choosing to go off her instincts, then you choose to not continue the marriage?

Yes, I will choose to not continue the marriage then. I don't want a false recovery, only to have things go bad again (with the possibility of there being children this time around).

"Am I correct in saying that this is a boundary (and hence non-negotiable)?" Boundaries are around you..."If you choose to this, then I choose to do this." You are stating your feelings, thoughts and beliefs...sharing "I feel attacked when you put down MB, because I believe in MB." Correct?

Correct. I feel frustrated because she has no alternative to offer except following her instincts.

""Another thing: she says one of the reasons she doesn't want to commit to the M is that she's ashamed of me because I exposed to some of her friends."

Are you clear on her feeling ashamed and you knowing it isn't because of you?"

Umm, not sure I understand this. She feels ashamed, and she feels it was because of what I did. That's hers to own, right?

"Are you clear in yourself when she isn't in herself?"

I certainly don't feel ashamed of exposing, in fact, everyone except her sister reacted quite positively to my exposure. It certainly seems to have helped end the affair on OMs side!

"Seems like you are super aware of DJs and I wanted to check in on the ones we do to ourselves."

I am super aware of them because I use them all the time and I feel it is one of the major things that messed up our R.

"And to this encounter...which went astray:

"She says "these friends will think I'm crazy if I go back to you after what you did."."

This isn't a DJ at all...this is her saying she values what other people think of her, choose to control her life that way, allows this choice to affect her decisions. Period. Her stuff, not yours."

Ah. I thought the statement "will think" was a DJ, since these friends didn't actually say this at all. It is what WW thinks they will think/say.

"Yet you went here: "At this moment I thought "DJ towards friends" (didn't say it though, since that would be a DJ by me!)." Which I believe set you up for this: "So I told her I have stopped trying to worry about what other people might think, and decided to live by my beliefs instead." Solid statement, understated, though, because it didn't acknowledge her choice to live otherwise."

Ahhh, so here I could have improved on the statement by including an "I hear you say" statement?

"Which is why I think you then fell back into proof mode...and fell out of acknowledgment: "After that I asked if this friend gave her some indication that they though I was crazy." By asking this, you disproved your own belief...asking what others think of you is not minding your own and respecting what is others' as theirs."

Hm, good point.

"Then you pursued it: "She admitted to this. So I asked which friend it was. Then she told me she didn't want to tell me. I asked her why not, and she said "just because". I felt hurt by this response, and said "I'm hurt that you choose to not tell me this without giving any reason." She said "I'm still not going to tell you."

Why did you cut off your own legs, self-betray in this way...and detract from acknowledging her own choice, her power, in what she believed? Were you trying to tell yourself you don't want what others think to matter, but it does? You do live by it?"

Hmm, I don't think I live by it, but I did wish to know which friends are "safe" and which aren't... Is that the same? I felt threatened because a friend stated they think I am crazy. But I don't know this, do I? No friend said that to me.

""ARGH! Just so many things about WW that frustrate me now." How about what you do frustrating you, as well?"

Yes, I feel frustrated when I DJ and I notice that I am doing it. It adds to the frustration I feel by her DJing. I did ask WW to tell me when she felt I was lecturing her or trying to manipulate her.

""It's hard to stay nice when every conversation leads to this kind of crap." There is no NICE in Plan A...it is being REAL...calm, respectful, separating out the enmeshment...it is not nice, though it can look like that from the outside...your intent is to have both hands in reality at all times. Could your intent be messing you up?"

Perhaps I misstated "nice". I meant to not lose my patience, to not use AOs or DJs during a frustrating conversation. I wasn't talking about trying to meet her ENs, I was talking about avoiding LBs.

""So, just planning some light fun this weekend. Tomorrow we'll shop together and watch a TV series we recorded, and on sunday we're going to see a movie." You can stay in reality and have marvelous RC time...sharing presence shares selves...great plans."

Yes, and we did have fun :-) I even stayed the night! We also had a few good conversations going too. She asked for HN, HN! We planned our week to see how much UA time there would be! At first she was very worried about the 15 hours thing but it turns out we can easily schedule enough time for that without it getting too forced (something she told me she is very sensitive to). She told me she's starting to warm up to me again! I feel great about this. This feels as real progress, because it shows commitment from her side!

"Next weekend we are going to my sisters house. She's going on vacation and she offered us their house for the weekend so we could enjoy ourselves in their state (ride bicycle and stuff)." More great plans...what kind of expectations do you have?

I expect to be having a good time together, perhaps feeling closer again and reconnecting a little.

""I'm just wondering how long I can keep this up. I don't WANT to expect anything from her but I just do," Do you believe you can't help your expectations, they are just are and you have no choice, no power over them?"

Hmm. I do have a choice, don't I? I CAN choose to not have expectations. Seems like a very hard thing to do.

""I can't help it." If you choose to believe you can't help it, then you are telling self that you are powerless, done to, a victim...which makes Plan A excruciatingly painful, and you're that to yourself."

You are saying my frustration comes from me and me only, correct? It is mine to own and to deal with? I cannot expect WW to do anything about it, because it is not hers to do?

""I'm so tired of the fence sitting... If she keeps this up too long I'm going to have to go to plan B, even though OM is gone. Perhaps that will get her off the fence."

Do you want a manipulative marriage or a respectful one?"

The latter, obviously. We already had the first kind, and that didn't really work out too well!

"Are you doing all this to make your WW commit? Or are you doing this for you, for your love of living in truth and reality, living respectfully by choice? What's your premise in life, LB?"

Good questions. I can't make my WW do anything, she's free to make her own choices. That is what I choose to believe.
However, this is very hard to do because of our past. I am still learning to live by my beliefs. Now that I look back, it seems I am still stuck in lecturing her and trying to change her beliefs.

Thank you for your input and questions, they give me a lot of insight!

*bump*

*bump for comments*

Hey, LB...

I think you got what I was going for about "in that order"...finding out where our pain, our injuries come from, is important in our personal recovery...and when you took offense (in that order), then you did what I call a self-stab...because what she says is hers...how you take it is yours...part of your power. Try not to self-stab...she was stating what she felt...what she was missing...take it for the statement, and try not to read into it...that gives our lifetime of DJing a green light to keep DJing, doesn't it?

Her opinion is that you have to change a few simple things, and she'll be happy...that's her truth, not THE truth. Just a reminder on that. You believe she has to do some changing, also...your truth is as valid, correct?

I believe the crucial part of eliminating LB's isn't just stopping them...holding them in...it is finding out the answer to: " a lot of times when she said something I didn't like"--finding out why you didn't like something she said...that's in you, about you...and we do DJ ourselves.

Getting clear on what is hers, (handsoff) and what is yours, is essential respect in a relationship.

"I want to stimulate honesty instead." I like this phrasing...if you mean you want to be open and honest...because you've made that a standard in yourself...which means you validate yourself, share who you are, what you're thinking, feeling and believing...then you are definitely getting to the root of DJs and AOs and eliminating them. If you are saying, "I want to influence her into being open and honest" then I challenge you on that...

Influence is limited by others...we are either allowed influence (a lot, a little...nada)...same with us...what we allow..."stimulate" or making honesty contagious...making yourself safe to be shared with, still her choice, no control for you, then I'm with you. Watch your desire to fix, to please, to smooth and rectify...I believe you want a respectful life...those can be sneaky backdoors into disrespect.

This is not easy at all...so that's why I'm asking you to go to ground zero, knowing your limit and power...essentials, before moving up...listen and repeat is only listen and repeat...later, listen and repeat with filter...right now, I'm asking you for simple, two-sentence "I" statements only...not this:

"My real intent is to state how she makes me feel when she says certain things WITHOUT using DJs or AOs. The problem is I seem to only state negative feelings this way at the moment."

Because your if you make your intent to state how SHE MAKES you feel...then you are handing her all your power (which isn't reality) and then holding her responsible for what you feel. I do understand, LB...just eliminating DJs and AOs was huge for me...what I'm sharing with you is how I did it...changing my primary belief from disrespect to respect (DJ's to no DJs)...and knowing when I speak of how I feel, that's my emotion(s)...and I'm sharing: Not instructing, guiding, blaming or educating. Just me being me with my DH...or others. Letting go the results.

DJs and AOs are DEPENDENT on results...that's why they are in us so rampantly...mindreading is false protection; assumptions gives us a leg-up, we believe, on be aware, prepared; and AOs feel like strength instead of destruction...all backwards, in my book...from reality.

About O&H statements... (open and honest)...and you seeming to only have negative comments...which feel like attacks when we phrase them, "When you say ____, I feel pain." You can understand that feeling, I'm sure. I worked on my own inner thoughts...and at the risk of sounding too simple, I said things like, "I feel nostalgic when I smell baked apples." "I love that color blue...it feels like a baby's smile inside me." Well...you have these in you...sharing your likes, what moves you, and what you're thinking about..."What do you think about respect? It has like 14 different meanings in the English dictionary."

Positive statements will come from your perspective...keeping in touch with your gratitude...balancing your thoughts with what is pleasure to you...not just pain...and sharing those findings...with yourself and her.

Btw, my DH didn't read HNHN or any of the books...and we're in recovery...and yes, I attempted, LB'd with trying to educate him...he does it his way, his time...and no, I didn't have a joyous recommitment for several months...we'll be at two years from DDay this September. Everyone has their way through...another reason I urge you to stay focused on you.

"Hmm, not sure about this one. She does state things like "If you keep doing these things there is no chance we will get together again." Is that a boundary?"

Sounds like a threat to me. I heard her boundary in reading as "I will educate myself." The listen and repeat to her statement would be, "I hear you believe if I keep doing these things that you will not choose to get together again, is that correct?"

Clarifying boundaries...you did it for yourself, when you said: "I feel frustrated because she has no alternative to offer except following her instincts."

What she chooses to offer or not does not affect your boundary. You boundary is not accepting a marriage based on her instincts...they didn't work before and you do not trust them. Reasonable, respectable boundary to me...which means that you can say out loud what you said, "I feel frustrated and fearful of your instincts...that's all you and me had before. I don't want to go off my own...that's why I'm educating myself and asking for help...searching myself."

"She feels ashamed, and she feels it was because of what I did. That's hers to own, right?" Yes! What she feels is valid...do not choose to own what is hers. Exactly!

Respect she feels fear and shame. Listen and repeat that.

About her DJs...when I said she didn't, I was wrong, you were right...she DJ'd her friends...which is not as important right now as hearing what she's saying and repeating it back...yet I see how your DJ alert is doing well to hear the catch phrases and process them...

My point was you DJing in your head here: "At this moment I thought "DJ towards friends" (didn't say it though, since that would be a DJ by me!)." When we do that...yes, good not to state, however, they STILL affect what we say and do...just to let you know that getting the surface DJs out (the out loud ones) is only the first step...if they are in your brain, they will affect your focus and where your mind goes...usually defensively.

And yes, Listen and Repeat is listening, repeating...and you can join in the conversation with your own...however, until you're DJ-free for the most part, I advise listening...strive first to understand, then be understood.

Those simple O&H statements are not during conversations, per se...I call them drive-bys..."Hi, FWW...I get such pleasure from seeing your face. Could I have some water?"

I understand you wanting to know which of her friends are safe or not...would now be the time? Do you believe her, every word she says? Is she radically honest with you, and your marriage...why ask now? She allows or disallows her friends' influence on her decisions...and even then, SHE decides...she chooses...your idea that by knowing who is not a friend of your marriage right now will be something to eliminate or include...when you're still learning you can only control yourself...may be a distraction.

I hear you feel fearful...and that can be extremely frustrating when we feel fearful of the future consistently in our present...what do you think?

And if you place high expectations on yourself--not to DJ, to only have smooth communication...do everything right...then your frustration and anger will soar...won't help that AO promise much...will it? Balance yourself...accept and embrace yourself...congratulate yourself and love yourself as earnestly and sincerely as you love your FWW...moreso...you are as marvelously made as she is. If you make your intent to be clear...to hear and understand clearly...instead of perfectly...you will not feel so frustrated...will you?

Stop believing that every conversation will turn to this crap...that sets you up for resentment before the conversation takes place...and maybe don't look at them as conversations (two-way streets) right now...just listening and repeating...

Are you taking time to just be together? Recreational Companionship (RC) without Relationship (R) talks? Re-acquainting ourselves with mutual presence...walks, rides with views...listening together to music...(no tv)...our presence matters...hers and yours...maybe less establishing what each other is thinking/doing and more time to be...being...what do you think?

(Thank you for clarifying "nice" for me...have you also tried slow, deep breaths?)

Expectations are premeditated resentments...if you choose to see them in that light, it's easier to not have them...they are false security, false hope, and the major source of frustration, disappointment and negative talk inside yourself when they aren't met. Give yourself a break from lugging them around...and your wife...and try it. Easy does it.

It's only for now...as you clear the decks to change your life...your life premise...not forever...reasonable expectations are okay...we've just lived with exaggerated ones, extreme ones for so long, we don't have the clarity to tell the difference yet...and that's okay...feel the freedom from them for awhile...then choose the reasonable ones carefully.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're getting this...I believe you are doing all this to be thoroughly who you really are...less a lot of defenses you didn't need...you weren't being attacked (pre-A)...and now, you're gonna shine...because you're doing this for you. You're choosing your life...dance in that a little bit...make your intent pure...to live respectfully. Which is happily, in my book.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hello LA,

Thanks again for posting on my thread.

"you did what I call a self-stab...because what she says is hers...how you take it is yours...part of your power. Try not to self-stab...she was stating what she felt...what she was missing...take it for the statement, and try not to read into it...that gives our lifetime of DJing a green light to keep DJing, doesn't it?"

Yes, very hard for me to do. I've always been a fixer.

"Her opinion is that you have to change a few simple things, and she'll be happy...that's her truth, not THE truth. Just a reminder on that. You believe she has to do some changing, also...your truth is as valid, correct?"

To me it is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's just extremely hard for me to not react to her statement. I feel this strong need to educate her. I know I shouldn't. Yet I still feel it. She has to want to educate herself, and I shouldn't be the one doing it anyway.

""I want to stimulate honesty instead." I like this phrasing...if you mean you want to be open and honest...because you've made that a standard in yourself...which means you validate yourself, share who you are, what you're thinking, feeling and believing...then you are definitely getting to the root of DJs and AOs and eliminating them. If you are saying, "I want to influence her into being open and honest" then I challenge you on that..."

Influence is limited by others...we are either allowed influence (a lot, a little...nada)...same with us...what we allow..."stimulate" or making honesty contagious...making yourself safe to be shared with, still her choice, no control for you, then I'm with you. Watch your desire to fix, to please, to smooth and rectify...I believe you want a respectful life...those can be sneaky backdoors into disrespect."

I know, I am well aware of this (I've been reading other threads about this too). The phrasing comes from one of the the Harley books (or on here) about stimulating honesty by not reacting to honesty with attempts to fix, to change, to control or to educate. That is my goal, to be respectful and safe. I'm still far away from that. I asked WW for help in indicating when she felt I was not safe or respectful of her.

"About O&H statements... (open and honest)...and you seeming to only have negative comments...which feel like attacks when we phrase them, "When you say ____, I feel pain." You can understand that feeling, I'm sure. I worked on my own inner thoughts...and at the risk of sounding too simple, I said things like, "I feel nostalgic when I smell baked apples." "I love that color blue...it feels like a baby's smile inside me." Well...you have these in you...sharing your likes, what moves you, and what you're thinking about..."What do you think about respect? It has like 14 different meanings in the English dictionary.""

I'm just SO not in touch with my own feelings... I have a very hard time describing my feelings in general. I've read the Penny Tupy site and looked at the feeling words list there, perhaps that can help me. In the past when my W asked me how I felt (about something or just in general) I quite often had no idea what to say. Keeping it simple sounds like an exellent plan.

"Btw, my DH didn't read HNHN or any of the books...and we're in recovery...and yes, I attempted, LB'd with trying to educate him...he does it his way, his time...and no, I didn't have a joyous recommitment for several months...we'll be at two years from DDay this September. Everyone has their way through...another reason I urge you to stay focused on you."

Yes, so true. She does work on our M in her own way, I can see that. It's just that my expectations mess up everything. Expectations build resentment, and will come in the way of our recovery.

"My point was you DJing in your head here: "At this moment I thought "DJ towards friends" (didn't say it though, since that would be a DJ by me!)." When we do that...yes, good not to state, however, they STILL affect what we say and do...just to let you know that getting the surface DJs out (the out loud ones) is only the first step...if they are in your brain, they will affect your focus and where your mind goes...usually defensively."

Yes, I can see how that works. There's just a gap between a new belief and actually living by it.

"And yes, Listen and Repeat is listening, repeating...and you can join in the conversation with your own...however, until you're DJ-free for the most part, I advise listening...strive first to understand, then be understood."

Sound advice. I will do that.

"Those simple O&H statements are not during conversations, per se...I call them drive-bys..."Hi, FWW...I get such pleasure from seeing your face. Could I have some water?""

Heh, I've tried these. They earn me very funny looks from my W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"your idea that by knowing who is not a friend of your marriage right now will be something to eliminate or include...when you're still learning you can only control yourself...may be a distraction."

It probably is a distraction, yes. Not important at the moment anyway, since these friends are living a few states away and contact is near zero.

"I hear you feel fearful...and that can be extremely frustrating when we feel fearful of the future consistently in our present...what do you think?"

Yes, the danger of expectations. I see your point. If you look back to earlier posts in my thread you can see me state I choose not to have expectations, but I didn't quite succeed with that. Every time WW did something I viewed as positive towards the M, my expectations soared and I was on cloud nine. And then when reality sank in again the fall was much deeper. Now I'm at a stage where almost nothing WW does towards "us" seems to be good enough. That's not a good place to be.

The same with my own changes. Every time I notice I fail to live by my beliefs it feels terrible and I want to turn back what went wrong. I see your point in accepting that I am still learning, that my intent is good but I am still human. This will probably feel less frustrating.

"Are you taking time to just be together? Recreational Companionship (RC) without Relationship (R) talks? Re-acquainting ourselves with mutual presence...walks, rides with views...listening together to music...(no tv)...our presence matters...hers and yours...maybe less establishing what each other is thinking/doing and more time to be...being...what do you think?"

I agree! We seem to fall in the trap of wanting to talk R too much every time. If it isn't me it's her, and I always let myself be dragged into it.

So, this weekend we're going to enjoy the sights and sounds of Drenthe (the state where my sister lives), drive our bicycles, enjoy the weather, and I will NOT DO R talk!

Listening to music together is a good idea, we used to do that in bed. No chance of that now :P

"(Thank you for clarifying "nice" for me...have you also tried slow, deep breaths?)"

Yes, and that works for me. I haven't AO-ed for quite a while <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Expectations are premeditated resentments...if you choose to see them in that light, it's easier to not have them...they are false security, false hope, and the major source of frustration, disappointment and negative talk inside yourself when they aren't met. Give yourself a break from lugging them around...and your wife...and try it. Easy does it."

Amen to that.

Here's an E-mail I got from my W today:

"I have the feeling that whatever I do, it will never be good enough for you."

"I get the impression that you want to use the (MB) method as law and not use it as a guideline. You even used the word sanctions yesterday."

"You have boundaries: your boundaries however do not seem to encompass a small area but are rather about the entire method: we either do it that way or we don't do it at all. Like I said yesterday: if it has to be done in a way I don't support 100%, I'd rather not start loving you again."

"You seem to be following your own plan/ideas, and I feel little consideration for my feelings. Maybe that's not the point/you don't want that. I don't know."

"You don't give me a feeling of safety. I am awash with feelings, but if I want to share them with you I only expect a comment about the way I formulate them. That only hurts and it also prevents me from fully sharing all my feelings and there's no payoff for me."

She makes valid points here. Any suggestions on how I can respond to acknowledge that?

LB,

Thanks for your reply...and I know I repeat myself...even on the same thread...it's the beginning of everything, in my viewpoint--getting the groundwork for what follows--so I do restate, restate...with absolutely no intent to act as if someone doesn't know...

You can practice stating your feelings here...I believe it is great practice...and no, you're not odd or special...many of us had no idea what we were feeling...I had two states--pain and no pain. I really did have all the emotions...but those were the only two I could separately identify.

Much more now!

And please make self-bashing your top priority...NOT to do. You really can NOT expect because you don't know...do you...anything past this moment...relieve yourself of the expectation burden, the disrespect of fixing, curing...troubleshooting...and really be in the right now...and I think you have all the tools you need...just need to practice handling them.

Now to your WW's email:

""I have the feeling that whatever I do, it will never be good enough for you.""

Possible answer:
"You feel that no matter what you try or do, my expectations will always be higher, is that correct?"

"I get the impression that you want to use the (MB) method as law and not use it as a guideline. You even used the word sanctions yesterday."

Possible response:
"What do you feel about thinking I may want to use MB as law? Do you hear how fearful I am when I talk about not using it?"

"You have boundaries: your boundaries however do not seem to encompass a small area but are rather about the entire method: we either do it that way or we don't do it at all. Like I said yesterday: if it has to be done in a way I don't support 100%, I'd rather not start loving you again."

Possible response:
"I'm hearing you see my boundaries as too broad, too encompassing, and that they are all or nothing, is that correct? And I hear you saying that your boundary is the same?"

"You seem to be following your own plan/ideas, and I feel little consideration for my feelings. Maybe that's not the point/you don't want that. I don't know."

Possible response:
"I'm confused...you are saying that I appear to you to be following only my plans and ideas and you feel not considered; and then I got lost here...about the point and what I don't want?"

"You don't give me a feeling of safety. I am awash with feelings, but if I want to share them with you I only expect a comment about the way I formulate them. That only hurts and it also prevents me from fully sharing all my feelings and there's no payoff for me."

Possible response:
"You don't feel safe and you expect a negative response from me, a DJ about the way you feel your feelings? That you feel pain and you stop yourself from sharing because there's no payoff for you?"

I like how you saw her valid points...all of them are...because they are hers. I would like you to O&H your fear...full of fear...of getting lost, hurt more, that terror of betrayal, fear causing expectations, anger, frustration...and those expectations can block what you're hearing or distort it...

and this all mixed in with you mourning what was to you...the marriage, your best friendship status...all that is gone.

I know you love her...share yourself...as is...no plotting, strategy or trying to get anything...just you sharing you...through and through, 'k?

You're worth it. On the possible responses...I used that hopper on my head and rephrased, respectfully (I hope)...keep fear away from your ears...you can hear her fears better that way...

The more you can talk about what you feel, the better you'll hear and acknowledge what she does...it is NOT about you...her feelings are all her own...and you know this...filter her words before they get into your head...don't allow them in until you know this is her, about her...'k?

You can do this, LB...can you see feeling immense freedom soon? When you're only responsible for what you truly are...there's freedom, and a lot of love...joy...and a LOT less fear.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

How can I "listen and repeat" or share my feelings when my wife writes to me:

"I find it unpleasant to talk in this analytical manner: 'I feel neglected'; 'I hear you say'"

What is analytical about that? I honestly don't understand. I am honestly not analysing. I need a wife-to-me/me-to-wife translator service I guess.

Do you believe in listen and repeat?

Have you shared with her that this is for you?

"Often, I find myself losing focus on what you're saying because I'm thinking of how to tell you what I want to--listen and repeat aids me in really listening, not assuming what you're saying. And I found that I wasn't hearing what you were saying."

She may find it unpleasant because she's gotten the impression you are doing it for her...why not state and then ask?

Injecting respect--that separateness and equality which already exists--while being enmeshed (reactive) isn't easy. Takes time and diligence. What you choose to do to break yours is your business...hers is up to her.

It brings us to understanding that we can agree to disagree. Both sides are valid...not everything is conflict. This isn't. What is unpleasant for her right now...heck being separated, after an A, is REALLY unpleasant, is for her to work through. Later, when you are both in recovery, you can pick and choose what matters most and not do it.

Listen and repeat is just the first level of listening...later, when you're more in automatic, there's listen and repeat with filter...and then, listen and respond...without being reactive.

If you have said "I feel neglected" then I challenge you to break down your O&H statements to parts you own...to find why you feel what you feel...again to expectations and what self-care you may not be doing for yourself. Still share all of it...realizations (which may have nothing to do with her); your stuff--patterns, triggers, etc. All worth sharing and knowing...not necessarily her doing.

You can't stop what she thinks; you can acknowledge you know. Choosing your actions and words from your code and not her possible response is living true to yourself.

Time, practice and knowing you're doing this for you are elemental. She handed you a statement which isn't true for you--be okay with it being true for her. Good to know.

LA

Hi LA,

"Do you believe in listen and repeat?

Have you shared with her that this is for you?"

Yes, it helps me to not react and try to fix. No, I didn't share that with her. I did that just now during a phone conversation. She actually came up with some good suggestions to make it sound less artificial. She doesn't want to come near anything that even remotely sounds like what she calls "psycho-babble".

"Injecting respect--that separateness and equality which already exists--while being enmeshed (reactive) isn't easy. Takes time and diligence. What you choose to do to break yours is your business...hers is up to her.

It brings us to understanding that we can agree to disagree. Both sides are valid...not everything is conflict. This isn't. What is unpleasant for her right now...heck being separated, after an A, is REALLY unpleasant, is for her to work through. Later, when you are both in recovery, you can pick and choose what matters most and not do it."

Do you mean to say she might be projecting her feeling of unpleasantness on me?

"Listen and repeat is just the first level of listening...later, when you're more in automatic, there's listen and repeat with filter...and then, listen and respond...without being reactive.

What is "listen and repeat with filter"? Could you give an example?

"If you have said "I feel neglected" then I challenge you to break down your O&H statements to parts you own...to find why you feel what you feel...again to expectations and what self-care you may not be doing for yourself. Still share all of it...realizations (which may have nothing to do with her); your stuff--patterns, triggers, etc. All worth sharing and knowing...not necessarily her doing."

I realized today when e-mailing that saying "I feel neglected" is a sneaky way of making a demand. "I want you to give me more attention". I then shared this insight with her, and she liked this a lot, because that was exactly how it felt to her. Like the same old me who was trying to control her. Any suggestions as to how this statement could be broken down?

"You can't stop what she thinks; you can acknowledge you know. Choosing your actions and words from your code and not her possible response is living true to yourself.

Time, practice and knowing you're doing this for you are elemental. She handed you a statement which isn't true for you--be okay with it being true for her. Good to know."

Good to know. And leave it at that, keep doing it because I'm not doing it to get some kind of response from her but I'm doing it for myself?

We had quite a good phone conversation this evening. I shared some of these insights I had with her, and it remained pleasant throughout. Tomorrow we'll have dinner together and we're going to watch an epsisode of a series I recorded.

I picked up my copy of "Love must be tough" today, it finally arrived. These things are not translated into Dutch. Only one of the Harley books (HN, HN) is.
I'm glad my English is good enough for this kind of books.

I'm also going to see a counselor tomorrow. WW won't go to MC with me until she is committed to us again, so I'm going alone. This kind of counseling is free in the Netherlands, but I'm still going to use the Harley/Tupy questionaire to see if they will be of any help to me.

Bump for LA

Hi, LB...thanks for the bump!

Can I just say "OUCH!" when people label efforts as psychobabble? What a DJ...so many do this and I hurt when I hear that. If someone wants to understand our intent (respect), how it works and the concept...and THEN call it psychobabble, it wouldn't hurt so much.

Personal injection over.

I really like she had her own suggestions on how to do it together...what would feel more natural for her...rather than not doing it at all. I'll give her that.

:::still rubbing my sore spot:::

I'm a little down tonight myself...that's my disclaimer...read at your own discretion...and I respect your discerning what is what you want in your life and what you do not. Thank you for considering the concept, seeing how it works, and choosing your intent.

I don't assume projection...you can ask by flipping what she says in your mind..."You are always angry with me!" And you can ask, "Do you feel that you are always angry with me?"

I know I project...I use it as a tool to see what I'm hiding from myself...and the more I use it, the less I do it. I think it is a tool God gave us to discern without assumption...though it is a DJ to begin with...or not.

Just checking, not assuming. Unpleasant tends to be a word, as well as uncomfortable, that CA's use a lot...downplays conflict, but not enough to address. There are some great books out there on conflict avoidance..."Embrace Conflict" and such. Fast reads.

How to break down our sneaky stuff (GREAT call, btw)...neglected...attention...lack of attention or to the level which fills your love bank...neglecting self contributes to that feeling...when you focus on others, especially our partners, and don't focus on our selves, well, that's lack of attention--neglect.

Want to hear a funny thing about this? It involves projection, which you mentioned...projecting the neglect we feel as if coming in from the outside (which makes sense if we are filling ourselves from the outside)...and our patterns of manipulating to get attention, get our needs filled...which takes a lot of focus on someone else, on plans, on tones and presentation...that we don't have time to give ourselves the thought focus we need, which amps up our need for even more attention coming in from the outside, doesn't it?

The cure is the cause, in a way. Maybe this is why I have that snake eating it's tail image lodged in my brain. (I hate snakes.)

Now, break down attention...how you feel attention...can be audible, visual, kinetic...words, cards, letters, notes (that may convey you are thought of, acknowledge, valid and real to someone else); flowers, clean space, calm, organization (caring actions taken with you in mind, acts of service); affection, walking, holding hands, looking into each other eyes, sitting next to one another within reach, presence (conveys connection, recognition, being enjoyed and contributing)...

And you can, btw, see where you can do a lot of that for yourself, too...to get your EN to a level which can be filled...

What bogarts these break downs? Expectations. Expectations are premediated resentments...each time you catch yourself wishing she would hold your hand, offer you a pillow, say ILY...you've got an expectation you've made which will measure what she's doing versus what you want her to do/say...and that failure to meet your own expectation will give you feelings of neglect, disappointment and invite a lot of DJs to walk in...

And when we are busy minding our expectations and measuring, her acts of love can walk right by us, unnoticed or recognized. Like dying of thirst next to a natural spring mountain because of us looking at the high grass.

Wow...I had no idea you English wasn't your natural language. Outstanding! I'm delighted your English is this excellent, too...otherwise, I would miss out on your posts.

I believe all information you glean is of help to you...you remain in control of what you believe and think. No one can lead you astray...you've felt what resonates within you--and lead you to a belief you already have (like a confirmation), only next to it is an older, less informed or earlier belief dominating it.

Kick it to the curb.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How are YOU feeling about you? Does the sharing feel scary or rather powerful? Your feelings let you know about you many times a day...share them here, too...about you...your own reaction. I got you felt the conversation was pleasant...whether it was or not, I got you viewed it that way. What is pleasant to you?

Relief? Delight? Joy? Humorous? Comfortable? Connective? Safe?

Thanks for the bump and all you're doing for yourself and your marriage...you inspired me on a night I really needed it.

LA

Hi LA,


I see how you can do a lot of the attention things yourself, nice!

I did some "self-attention" today. I like "clean space" and "organization". I think domestic support is one of my ENs, LOL.

The garden was a mess (first it was too hot to work in the garden, then it rained all the time) so I decided to mow the lawn and pull out some of the nastier weeds.

Yesterday I did some overdue ironing and other chores.

Buying flowers sounds like a good idea. I like having flowers around the house.

Our lunch date today was a disaster. WW assured me many times that she really didn't love me anymore and felt bad everytime we spent time together. Yes, even last week when we went biking. My mere presence causes this, it seems.

She says she doesn't feel like doing stuff at home, doesn't feel like going to work, doesn't feel like doing things together, doesn't feel like going to the gym. So I said "Many of these things seem to have nothing to do with me, though." She denied this. Well, it's her truth but I don't buy it. I hope her psychologist can help her with this.

Then I said "You sound a bit depressed." She replied "Not depressed, it's more like a burn-out. Please don't label everything!"

I just wished she would own her own stuff. Everything, yes, everything is caused by me. According to her she would never have had the affair if I hadn't abused her all these years. I already told her many times how sorry I was, and that I was willing to take extreme measures to prevent that from ever happening again.

Yes, I know. I'm expecting things and that's a seed for resentment. I am reading Arks "Be still" thread once more again.

I have a hard time sharing myself under these circumstances. My WW is not safe for me as she keeps labeling my efforts as "giving her the creeps". "Why can't you talk normally to me?"

How can I convey to her that I feel disrespected? I really don't want to talk to her if all I get in return is bitterness. Should I just let it go and keep doing it anyway?

She keeps saying "Yes, I will go to counseling with you IF I WANT TO TRY AGAIN WITH YOU. Yes, I will go to a different gym IF I WANT TO TRY AGAIN WITH YOU. Yes, I will be O & H about my schedules etc. with you IF I WANT TO TRY AGAIN WITH YOU. But why would I want to try again with you? I don't trust you. I keep thinking "when will the abuse start again?" I know you believe it can all get better again, but my feelings tell me to watch out for you. Again, why would I want to try again with you?"

She told me she sees the fact that she didn't file for divorce immediately and keeps talking to me, keeps seeing me as a huge effort from herself. When I asked her for her plan to make things progress further, she didn't have an answer.

I don't think I handled this too well. Too much educating and disrespect today :-( She still doesn't want to try my suggestion to just STOP talking about these things. "I don't want to pretend everything is fine." So I suggested I just listen and not react. "Well, that's not going to help me either."

I suggested to her to post here but she didn't feel the least bit like that.

Oh well. At least I know we've still got a long way to go. Mucho fog still there, on both sides.

Final note to self: STOP EXPECTING!

After yesterdays disaster I re-read some chapters from "LoveBusters".

I haven't been doing a very good job protecting W from me, because she says I am still controlling. Plus I teach and lecture.

Looking back, she is right. My ways of "labeling" things are disrespectful, and yes, I would like to "change" her to see things my way. This time it's my way of working on our M that I want to impose on her.

I hope she is willing to help me with the suggestions SH gives in the book. That is, to keep a log of instances of DJs, AOs and SDs. Of course she has her share of them too, but I think it's more important to work on mine before negotiating about the rest. Since I can't be a safe negotiation party at the moment that's probably not a good idea anyway. I first need some practise at that.

The book says to not argue with your spouse about these log entries, even if you feel you were not disrespectful, angry or whatever. Taking the case of angry, I have this habit of getting very worked up over some political issue (or a computer problem, or really anything that I don't agree with) and become rather upset and loud. W never liked this much, she always felt it was directed at her. I could assure her a million times it wasn't about her, she'd still not be comfortable about it. I never made an effort to stop doing that, but I need to, because W feels unsafe because of this.

There are many of these things that I never properly dealt with, even if W brought them to my attention.

So, I need a new focus on plan A. I'm not making the progress I thought I was. Yes, I have changed my beliefs. I don't believe in anger, I don't believe in disrespect, I don't believe in demands. Now it is time to follow up on my beliefs, and start ACTING them.

I lost my post. I am feeling frustrated, too.

LA