LA,

Once again thank you for being here for me. It really means a lot to me.

I'm feeling a little better, knowing I have the power to change beliefs and habits.

In the past, when WW would address an issue with my personality or a habit, I would always respond with "that's just the way I am". Easy answer, makes sure I don't have to do any work on myself.

Now I know that I can change the way I behave by changing my beliefs. Coming to MB has been a big step, reading Harleys articles and recognizing much of myself in them.

Thanks for making the journey with me.

LB

I didn't speak to my WW much these past few days.

She's busy at work, I'm also very busy (deadlines coming up) and the evenings are just too short. Tomorrow she's going to be doing 2 days of "team building" at her job, including a night at a hotel. She has to share a room with a collegue. She absolutely HATES not sleeping at home in her own bed.

Tonight I called her to talk about last sundays events. I told her that I reacted to her expression of concern as assumption that it was about me, not about her. That my response was manipulative and that I was sorry for my part in the following escalation.

I told her about the assignment I got at my MC session (counting the times I was able to express my feelings without ending up in some sort of discussion) and that I didn't create many oportunities this week to use them.

She agreed, and said that was probably also due to our busy schedule this weekend and week.

She said she didn't like my "formal" way of expression. I asked for an example. She said "Like when you said that you didn't feel much like me visiting under those conditions. Or the way you express your feelings. Or the way you repeat my words."
I said "I'm taking my time to carefully formulate what I feel and think. I feel that if I don't do this I will make my old mistakes and turn to lecturing or sarcasm and such. I don't want that anymore."
She said "It makes me feel uncomfortable, a feeling of 'Yeuch'. I don't feel comfortable around you anymore."
I asked "My expression of my feelings, and my efforts to communicate respectfully make you feel uncomfortable?"
I said "I have said this before, it is a process. It is not the end stage. I can't change overnight."
She said "I know, but I still don't like it."
I said "You don't like it when I express my feelings? You don't like it when I attempt to change my way of talking to you, with the goal to really listen to you?"
She said "You're doing it again, please don't do that. I'm tired, I'm going to bed."
At that time she hung up.

I texted her the following: "I am hurt by your critique of the work I am doing to communicate better. It hurts to hear you calling it unpleasant. It undermines my self confidence. I'm affraid I bear full responsibility for our recovery. I can't handle that burden."

She texted me to call her again, which I did.

She said that I may be right about that. I asked her "Right about what?". She said "About you being responsible for me wanting to continue with us."
I said that I cannot bear that responsibility alone. She then said "I suppose you're right."

She said that she wanted to feel comfortable around me again, that everything now felt as an obligation. "You only want to spend time with me because we're supposed to. We're married, so we're supposed to do that. I also get the feeling that you don't love me, you don't apreciate me, you don't value me, you don't respect me. You only want me because we are married."
I said "That is definately not why I want to spend time with you. I want to spend time with you to feel connected to you. If don't see eachother very often I can't feel a connection. I find it hard to open up, to talk to you openly about my feelings when I'm not connected."
I said "I do love you. I do feel all these things. I just can't show them to you the way you would like, and I am still in the process of learning to respect you. It's a process, I can't change myself just like that."
She said "You're changing too much. I want my old husband back, the one I could talk with and the one I didn't feel I had to watch out with everything I said, that it might hurt you or that I use the wrong words."
I said "You say I'm changing too much. I say I haven't changed enough yet."

Many more things were said which I can't really remember right now, I'm a bit tired. I also feel I constantly repeat myself, defending myself against her or something. It really gnaws at my self confidence. I know that is not her responsibility, it's mine. The child in me would just like to see some confirmation that I'm on the right track I guess.

Another thing she came up with as a problem for our future together: SF. She said that penetration didn't do much for her, and she didn't want to do oral sex to me. And since I told her it was my #1 emotional need, this was a problem. So, I asked her if she was suggesting I never penetrate her again. She said she wasn't just going to lie there and let me do my thing. Well duh...
I really don't know how to react to theses "issues" she keeps coming up with, so I'm just choosing to ignore them for now. I just said "Yes, that may be a problem." Unfortunately I was stupid enough to mention that she didn't seem to mind OM penetrating her (I read some steamy E-mail between them unfortunately). That question just made her angry. She said that that was passionate, so penetration would follow naturally. Grrr. That just makes me so angry. Just the solution. Instead of trying to create some passion between US, we should just not have any SF at all! Great solution...

I think it would serve me better to consider her still very alien, even though there is no A anymore.

<sarcasm>Honestly, with all my shortcomings, I don't understand why there aren't any D papers on my doormat yet! I am after all a horrible person!</sarcasm>

Dear LB,

Do you want to bludgeon your truth into your WW? Or do you want to speak it to know and share it?

Can you see how you're sensitive to what she says because you believe you are causing it?

You weren't making her feel uncomfortable!!! She FEELS uncomfortable...with change, your fear of mispeaking, you eliminating Love Busters....what, because she's uncomfortable, you're gonna go back to LBs?

Wait.

You still are.

O&H statements..."I" statements...are not to refute anyone else. They are for you, about you...to share...to know...aloud...not to refute.

Tell me your payoff in making your WW the bad guy, your very enemy in your life? The enemy of your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...?

Help me out...you have a payoff...I had one, too...I wonder if it's the same false payoff.

I believe there's another downside to refuting...that is, when you refute others' opinions, then you are actually telling self that your opinions don't matter...stay with me...there's a backside to everything...and if you are not leaving others' stuff where it belongs, then self gets run over...by refuting, you are establishing that their opinion HAS to be refuted, otherwise it will be believed.

That's damaging to self...your opinions are valid. As is everything in you...valid...yours...your truth. Can you see where you're getting exhausted from the resistance refuting causes?

Listen and repeat is to ascertain you're really hearing and acknowledging what is WW's stuff...and leaving it there. No way to use it respectfully AND to refute, is there?

Imbalance tires us out...emotionally, even physically...definitely mentally...self wants to be on guard, defended, and instead, it's like backstabbing yourself...no easy trick to understand; quick to feel it, though.

I still don't hear you REALLY being O&H, either. "I am terrified of you verbally attacking me. I know this is just my perception. I am careful with my words not to love bust, because I love you and want to respect myself...and because from years of feeling attacked, I am automatically defensive. I am sick of the same cycle, of my own automatic reactions...and look, even now, I'm caught in them. Would you please help me to break this dance?"

Is that your real truth? Or is the payoff too great in the dance...for you to really want to break it?

I'm not bashing you if there is...been there, had to discover it...really see it for what it was...before I could break the cycle, change the dance.

To free myself.

And my DH.

Can you please know the signals you give to yourself...if you feel hurt by her emotions, then YOU are taking them into you...taking ownership of what is NOT yours. Self-stabbing.

Know why the call it self-confidence? Self-esteem? Self-respect? Because we are the only ones with the ability to build it or erode it inside of us...through our choices. I swear to this...no one else can take away or add to your confidence, esteem or respect. They don't have the power.

We can glow from praise...and erase it in our heads a nanosecond later...unless we AGREE with admiration, appreciation...all that good stuff...it doesn't get in...and if it does, it is BECAUSE we believe it already...like it being double-confirmed.

Having said all that...can you see how you finally spoke your truth plainly...you feel 100% the burden for recovery. What's attacking in that?

You got there!!!! Way to go!!!

Oh...how you missed the very best opportunity to really break the enmeshment you both have with each other...when you refuted instead of validating that what she perceived (you only wanting to save the marriage, not loving, etc.) is HERS and not TRUTH...well, I'm sure you'll have that opportunity again. What she perceives is through HER filter...not truth...and not responding at all would have been better than refuting her perception, I believe.

You know you love her...you can't convince her...she knows. Do not insist, say, "I know you know I love you."

There is the difference, LB...what you believe is yours, valid...not wrong. What she believes is valid. You can agree to disagree and stay connected...sometimes, it takes that, to get connected again.

Did you know you choose to be defensive? Even you're not being attacked...I see that a lot in your posts...choosing that dance. You hear putdowns where there are none, in reality...and you're not alone. I heard, felt and saw rejection so consistently, I, too, felt rejected...sometimes, it was valid; most, it was not. I had trained my brain through my fear of rejection to stay so vigilant to see it, my brain THOUGHT I wanted to feel it.

My highest honesty to you, LB...it's true. I could feel rejected by a dog, a clerk at the grocery store...a look from a billboard...okay...maybe not that far...but very, very close.

In attacks, which I believe your WW did to you for the last six years, defining who you were, and you, her...they were not constant and her intent was NOT to attack...valid feelings...you felt attacked. That's yours. Valid. Because your filter was trained to be vigilant.

Can you let it go now? Can you do the Owning All Your Villagers exercise and help yourself to first, pause and consider...just because I'm feeling attacked, am I? Then have your yardstick...am I being defined? No, but it feels close. She feels uncomfortable...so I must be doing something. Second, wait...that's an old, invalid belief...I didn't make my Mom mad, my Dad disappointed or my brother a pest. I didn't and don't have that power as a human being. Okay...she feels uncomfortable with my changes. Heck, I do, too...that's okay...what she feels is hers...now, is there still a feeling of being attacked? If it's gone, you really weren't and you'll FEEL the difference instanteously...

If it's still there because she said, "You aren't trustworthy" then the yardstick says, "That's a DJ...that is someone defining me. Okay. Call it as you see it. "I believe you defining me, telling me who or what I am, is abusive. Are you saying you do not see me as trustworthy, or that you do not choose to trust my changes?" State the boundary and clarify. Here is where the enforcements begin.

Is that clearer for you?

I've got to get a lot of work done here in the next hour...and will read the rest of your post...please consider that changing those old beliefs isn't easy...just imperative for having a healthy relationship with ANYONE...which includes...with yourself.

And you're worth it.

LA

If you feel tired of repeating yourself...why not stop repeating? Trust she heard. Say more of "I know you know" instead.

I do understand from years of abuse you feel defensive...a need to defend. I still hear things as attacks when they aren't really there, sometimes...have to restate and consider before answering. Sounds like a burden to me, typing that. Felt freeing when I do it now. Hmmm. Really tough to not be in pain and know how much pain you are in...feels to me like I'm adding to your pain. Am I?

Took years to get here, won't stop overnight. To lovingly accept you feel what you feel, believe what you believe is great to do. To practice. And from that love, detach enough to know what really isn't yours...you defining yourself through someone else's opinion...from habit...and what truly is them defining you right now.

As for your #1 EN...do you believe you can have a passionate marriage? If you believe it, it's valid. Choosing to believe she will love penetration as she once did with you again in the future isn't fantasy. It's a belief. You believing it is more important than her believing it. What a great opportunity to share your stuff...

"Ouch! I just heard you say we couldn't have a passionate marriage someday. I immediately thought of you and OM and my heart snapped hard. I feel great rejection right now. I feel angry."

No defensive words there...you share your thoughts and feelings. Even as you state them, you know them...you acknowledge how you're feeling and what you're thinking out loud.

The wayward state of mind is what you're picking up on, I think. No more A and no ownership of what she did, and a choice to commit to working on the marriage for two years to see if all the pre-A stuff can be worked out and the A-stuff. Until those steps, the resentment, entitlement and lack of respect persists...distorts perceptions and perspectives.

Would that be close to what you're hearing?

Were you guys really negotiating sex or was she bringing up her thoughts and fears? Why work on the marriage if I don't want sex right now? Her stuff...not the truth...hers, right now...maybe not later, not even next week...don't know...do you?

Do you tell yourself those things, too? "Honestly, with all my shortcomings, I don't understand why there aren't any D papers on my doormat yet! I am after all a horrible person!" That you're at fault for her choice to have an A? To not want to reconcile right now? Why do you want to believe that?

Sorting out our own pain, what we do to ourselves to cause some of it, from what is truly going against our beliefs...in marriage, how life should be, how people should be, how our spouses SHOULD be...lots of pain in that...isn't easy. Just necessary.

Can you see where you stabbed your own innocent self in your post?

LA

CJ updated and said hello to ya.

(Yeah, I'm using this observation as an excuse to bump. I'm obvious. I know.)

LA

(CJ...you've been used!)

Hmmm...thought I replied to this but I musta not hit 'submit'.

Oh well, LA, I like being used for noble reasons, bump away!!

LB, been reading your journey, you are doing awesome, I know it's difficult, I DO hope you're doing OK, you can do this, your proving your own amazing worth to yourself!!

To pull your OWN strings means sometimes to be misunderstood. I hope you can consider to relish the confusion you seem to be creating by your GROWTH.

Really. Have you ever heard of growing younger? I haven't.

You kick ath.

cheers,

CJ

Hi LA, CJ,


Thanks for bumping. I'm here, just lurking at the moment. CJ, glad to hear you're doing OK.

It's been a bit of an unusual week. Very busy at work, not much energy left after making dinner, eating it and cleaning up. I'd like to do the 'Owning All Your Villagers' exercise, LA. I hope I can bring myself to doing it. I'm still "digesting" your latest replies.

One of our rabbits (the oldest, WWs favorite) died Friday, after possibly having had a stroke, and WW was devastated. She called me at work to meet her at the vet. When I arrived he had already died. It's the first pet that ever died on her...

We buried him in our back yard yesterday. It was quite emotional for both of us. WW didn't want to be alone this weekend. We shared lots of fond memories about the rabbit (she already had him before we met). We also did our normal weekend stuff together (shopping, watching recorded TV shows, biking). I was with her pretty much 24/7 the past few days. It felt almost normal (except some of the time was spent at her apartment). Now she's back at her apartment.

I enjoyed it a lot, and she just called me to say she enjoyed it and thanked me. No LBs the past 3 or 4 days for either of us, jay!


LB