You were all right, and I'm a bloody idiot. Yes, yes I am. We all know what it's like when we just find out that we've been lied to and manipulated, and it is a horrible feeling. But let me tell you, discovering stuff a year later makes it hurt no less. It's been a while since I tracked WH's cruel behavior, but now that things are coming to a head, the truth about other things is starting to come out. I wish I had listened to my own gut and commonsense, and even to my wacky dad, instead of the man who used to be my precious H. I wish I'd listened to my gut, when I said to him at the start, "Is there someone else?" and his eyes for that split moment looked away before returning to mine and saying, "No." I KNOW about body language, I know about the aversion of the eyes before a lie is told, and yet I chose to believe the words he told. I wish I'd listened to my dad, who despite his faults had it right when it all blew up and he said to me, "It's a dame." I was crying and weeping and saying, "No, no, Pa! Not H! He's right! It's me! I've wounded his inner child! He feels abused!" And he's saying, "RiverTam, it's a dame . I'm a man, I know how men think, and this stuff he's telling you makes no sense." I wish I'd listened to the people here at MB, who said, "What makes you think the A started AFTER he moved out? Everything you describe leading up to his moving out sounds like the start of an A. How do you know it started afterwards? You only have his word to go on it!" I wish I'd listened to NOTHING he told me.

Now that it's all coming to a head and a D is imminent, my daughter has seen fit to give me a few details I didn't know, that confirm that a proper A has been going on from the moment he left, if not before. When WH left, he moved in with an employee of his, who also happens to be a very old friend of the family. WH told me he was moving in with a man so that people wouldn't talk and believe he left me for another woman, so it was to spare me any humiliation. Anyway, some weeks after, they had a huge fight, and WH moved out. (At the time I asked him why he'd do this; after all he told me he'd shifted in with him to spare me the humiliation of people believing he was moving out into his own place so he could be free to be with another woman. He told me he'd never said this. Warning bell #1!) A little while later, WH tells me that this employee has been spreading rumors, that WH had been bringing all kinds of women to visit when he was living with him. He was incensed at this slight on his public reputation! (Warning bell #2) Well, yesterday, D18 tells me what happened. Apparently, the huge fight was in defense of me. The OW started visiting WH at the employee's place almost straight away, and the employee said, "You told me you were shifting in here while you thought about your future with RiverTam! I will not have you bringing you mistress here!" The employee put his foot down, and so WH moved out.

D18 told me that one time she was at WH's to help with the cleaning, she found a card from the OW to WH, saying, "I want to spend the rest of my life with you." The card was dated 10 July, just five weeks after he left. You do NOT say you want to spend the rest of your life with someone if you've only just started a R and are "just friends". Furthermore, if you're "just friends", you don't have a Cosmo booklet entitled "How to pleasure your partner" on your bedside table in full view, which D18 also found when she was cleaning.

So... it's been going on all along. Everything I took on board and held myself accountable for, the self-recrimination, the guilt, it was all because of the A. All the blaming, all the "You've abused me!" and "You've wounded my inner child!" and "You're saying everything I've always wanted to hear, but it comes three weeks too late!" and "You say you've changed, and I think you believe you've changed, but I can't believe you. I don't think you can change. I don't trust you." and "You're assuming we've slept together. We're just friends." It was all BULLCRAP. I mean... I know it was bullcrap anyway, I just didn't know just how MUCH bullcrap it was, and I didn't know (or didn't WANT to know) just how long this has been going on. Those "three weeks too late"? I reckon that's the clue, right there. Three weeks before he left, it all began.

I'm a bloody, bloody, bloody idiot. Please don't tell me not to recriminate myself, it's a done deal. I don't regret being a trusting person, or believing the words of someone who used to be trustworthy, but I DO blame myself for not heeding my own gut, my own commonsense, my dad, and you guys here.

So there you go. No matter how long it takes for you to find out you've been a patsy, you STILL feel like a patsy.

Now will someone PLEASE explain to me why I feel so cruddy when he's been gone for over a year and I've been in Plan b for nearly six months and have no intention of stopping while The Dodo is in his life? Sigh...

Oh, we love to be right. The shame belongs to your WH, not you. A wife is supposed to be able to trust her husband, and honor him.

You are a good woman and your goodness was used against you be your WH.

There's zero doubt in my mind that your husband was in the affair before deciding to leave you. Zero. It's not just your situation, but just about any of the others who go through the same thing. Dr Harley himself says it's usually an affair when one spouse suddenly wants to leave the house.

No longer accept the excuses he laid on you. It's not about his inner child or the pain you caused, it's about him looking for a way to justify his behavior. Nothing more. The only person being abused is you.

If you ever contact him again, let him know that you KNOW it started before. Let the people you exposed to know it started before. Let yourself know and believe it. Quit using the 'assuming it started before he left' talk, let it sink in.

There is a difference between suspecting something might be true..and KNOWING the truth.

The reason that this follows you beyond the death of the marriage is because it really has nothing to do with your H and everything to do with your self perception.

***Now will someone PLEASE explain to me why I feel so cruddy when he's been gone for over a year and I've been in Plan b for nearly six months and have no intention of stopping while The Dodo is in his life? Sigh...***

You are still grieving, Tam. That's why you feel the way you do.

I belief the five steps of grief are:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I believe these were created to describe grieving a death - either one's own or someone else's - but they certainly do describe the feelings that come with any profound loss.

It's normal. And okay. And it comes at its own pace.
Mulan

It sucks when someone takes advantage of you; I can't believe how much guilt and whatever I assumed because my WH was trying to distract me from reality - the reality that he couldn't face.

Thanks, everyone.

WH is still, as my father would say, "Living on a cloud of farts". He hadn't told S11 that he was filing, so when the papers arrived, S11 had no idea. I didn't tell him, but told him to ring his dad. His dad spent about 30 seconds saying he'd explain everything that night when they had access. Next morning, S11 says to me, "Mom, you know how dad told me he'd have a little chat to me about what's happened? Well, he didn't. He talked for a very, very long time. I didn't understand most of what he said. I'm confused." A day later, S11 says to me, "You know one thing Dad said that I don't believe? He says he wishes he could fix all this without hurting you. I don't believe that."

So if he can't fool an 11 y.o. with his crap, I'm wondering how he's faring with the grownups.

The other thing that strikes me is that he still thinks I'm acting out of "hurt". That the PBL and the letter I sent him when I was served the other day (check it out here) isn't a consequence of his actions, but me reacting. You were all right about this too. WSs really DON'T "get it".

Now, I need some advice. WH still sees fit to send me messages with the kids that aren't about access or finances. For example, the other day he sent a newspaper clipping with S16, and last night he told S11 to tell me that an old neighbor of ours (whom I haven't seen or been in contact with for about 14 years) died. Despite the letters, he still thinks it's OK to send these off-topic messages. It's NOT. I know I should ignore them (and I do), but should I tell him to quit it? Frankly, I'd like to.

Ignore anything he sends that is not about the kids. Don't let him get a RiverTam fix.

Augh! Believer! But I reeeeaaaally want to! LOL

No, really, it's bugging me no end. He's filed for D, he's been told a few times now to quit contacting me about ANYTHING. Supposedly now that he's getting what he wanted why can't he just leave me alone? I know about giving him a RiverTam fix, but this is bugging me. I was thinking of something along the lines of:

Dear WH,

I would like to refer you to my letter dated 30 December, 2005. I would like to remind you that in that letter, I specify that any contact between us is to be about children and finances only. I would also like to refer you to my e-mail on 7 June reaffirming the conditions of that letter. Children and finances (and the latter only until settlement goes through), via e-mail, are the only subjects I will discuss with you or accept from you. I have asked the children not to relay any messages or information from you - written or verbal - that do not fall under these two categories.

Thank you,
RiverTam

---------------

You reckon this would be a RiverTam fix to him?

Yep. Don't do it. Don't respond. Stay dark, dark, dark.

Okeydoke. Thanks. You know I respect you and your advice, so I'll do as you suggest... dammit! LOL! I guess I'm just frustrated and hurt. I'll have to work it off some other way.

((((((((((((((RiverTam)))))))))))))

Too right - the shame is ALL his. All of it. Owns every last DROP.

Please let the OW meet all of his needs. He can give her newspaper articles (she CAN read, right?) You need to be COMPLETELY dark.

Maybe the nasty article just had lots of pictures.

Before you are too hard on yourself, think of this as a front row seat in "How to Know If Your Spouse Is Having an Affair 101". The principles are the same whether it is a new affair, or renewed contact during recovery. Having seen it up close once, you know you will recognize it if it happens again, and much faster.

LOL Believer and Neak! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nah... the article wasn't nasty. Just creepy and (I think) manipulative. It was about this hotel we stayed at the very last weekend we had together when we were proper husband and wife. I (maybe we? who knows these days) had a beautiful memory of a wonderful weekend at this hotel, since it was a time when we still loved each other and were totally into each other; the article was about the fact that the hotel is closing down. According to S16 (who delivered the article for him, a couple of days before I was served with D papers), WH thought I'd find it interesting. OK so after some time here I've been told not to expect symbolism (eg. "It's curtains for the hotel, and curtains for our marriage) or anything that requires such deep levels of thought, but I don't discount manipulation. S16 handed it over to me, I looked at the headline to see what it was about, and put it down on the table with no reaction. So if WH pumped S16 for info on what my reaction to the article was, he would have been disappointed. Later on that night, when S16 was gone back to his dad's place, I used the article to start the fire in my combustion heater.

Well, today I did something that was well overdue. I told the kids that the only subjects for communication with WH is they themselves and finances, and they are to stop relaying messages from him to me. I told S11 that if WH asks him to relay a message about something else, he is to say, "Mom says that's not an appropriate thing for me to do."

Tonight, I told S16, whom you might remember I have vowed not lumber with my feelings about this whole business ever again. It wasn't too bad, but it wasn't great. We had a nice afternoon together, and went and played our weekly raquetball game. When I dropped him off at the apartment he shares with WH, he ran in to get my mail, and when he got back, I told him, and just made it as light as I could. I said, "Listen, I need you to do me a favor. It's no big deal, but I need you to do something for me. Dad knows the only subjects we're meant to discuss are you guys and finances. So if he gives you messages to tell me, or newspaper articles, or whatever, I don't want you to relay them, OK? You don't have to be the messenger boy." And this is where it got uncomfortable. He said, "But he just gave me a message to tell you." I said, "Is it about you guys or finances?" He shook his head and I said, "Then it's not necessary. No worries, OK?" His whole demeanor changed and I just couldn't salvage it. I guess he had to go back into the house and tell his father that he couldn't deliver the message, which just SUCKS. It's a horrible situation for a kid.

Now... I hope I don't get a telling off about this, because I have been accused here before of using the kids as my messengers. There's been a few occasions where WH violated the conditions of my PBL and forced the kids into an undesirable sitch where they're relaying messages such as "Dad wants you to come outside so he can tell you something" and then I say something like "Tell Dad an email will be fine". These have been totally cruddy situations and I've handled them as best I can. What I am trying to do here - despite S16's patent discomfort - is trying to stop WH using them as his messengers to get to me.

Anyway - I think I've done the right thing, in keeping with Believer's advice to stay dark, dark, dark. The thing about WH is that he thinks I'm acting out of "hurt" and kinda sees this as a prolonged silent treatment. He doesn't seem to realize he doesn't get to tell me the little bits of info he wants to tell me, whether through the kids or not. I hope this will make it clear for him.

OK... I need help about what to do with this e-mail WH has just sent. Even though the only subjects I am willing to discuss are kids and finances, tonight I received an e-mail with "My things" on the subject line. Now I know what the message was that he wanted S16 to relay!

I brought this on because the past few times S16 has been here, I gave him stuff of his father's to take back to him. This is ONLY the stuff that was in our bedroom. I sent it back because it's been bugging me for a year and it just felt WRONG to have his bedside table full of his stuff, and one of the chest drawers full of stuff, and bits and pieces in the wardrobe. Three visits from S16, three loads. That was it. Now tonight I get this:

"Hi RiverTam,

Thanks for what you have sent in. There is no need for you to pack up anything else for me. I will come out and get it myself. I will contact you soon and make a time that suits you, perhaps when you are not there if that works better for you. Maybe I can get the cedar chests then so that I have somewhere to put all this stuff??

Thanks for consideration,

WH"

Needless to say, it is not suitable for me that he come over either when I'm here OR not here. Also, I don't intend for him to just take his stuff. Early on in this mess I told him he could have his cedar chests (very valuable antique pieces that have been in his family for generations) if and when we divorced, but I'm not just going to hand them over. They're valuable, and we have yet to have a formal separation of our property. (I'm not saying he can't have them, I'm just saying their value should be taken into account and I won't just have him take them away.) Also, I have just found out he's been having an affair all along, and am suddenly feeling a lot less charitable.

So. Do I reply to this? Or do I just let him hear from the lawyer? I'd like some opinions on this ASAP.

*bump*

Doesn't anyone have any advice for me about this email?

At this point why does it really matter how he gets his stuff?

I agree with you staying with plan B, but after the D papers are filed there really are things that have to be done.

You can consult with your lawyer about it - as far as value goes but as far as him coming, or you taking it somewhere, how important is that really?

I think I would make it as easy on YOU as I could.

I also think perhaps that things he brought to the marriage (family treasures) should probably just be given back to him.

Remember the story of Abraham and Lot. They traveled together and lived close for a while. Once it was clear that both households were getting too large to stay close Abraham took Lot up on a hill, and asked him to choose what he wanted. Of course he took what looked best. It meant he lived closest to the twin cities of Sodom and Gommorah.

Abraham took what looked to be a poor choice. However he lived as he was supposed to live, and was blessed. He didn't care nearly as much how good the land was, he cared about keeping God's commandments.

If you error in these proceedings, error on the side of kindness. Live as you ought to live, and expect to get the help you need.

I'm not sure about many things - but think on this.

Eternity awaits you. You have all the promises waiting that God extends to the faithful. If need be, you can get a sealing cancelation and doesn't God provide for us when we do as he asks?

Don't worry so much about any thing he does, look to what you know is right, consult with your legal advisor, and do the best you can. Pray - you know there is help there.

The promises of the Lord are sure. Always and forever.

SS

Thanks, SS. Yes, I want to make it as easy on myself as I can, which would mean he sends over the removalists and I deal with them. I have no intention of keeping anything that's not mine. On the other hand, I have been custodian of these items for the past 21 years, with the attitude that they would one day belong to our children, and our children's children. Think the OW will look upon these items the same way? What's going to stop her when they get divorced (after they get married) and taking them away?

Sigh... at any rate, I still don't know whether to answer the email, or let the lawyer handle it. Any thoughts on this?