I just was recommended to this site by a fellow Marine.

I'm really lost as to what to do, and I know I sound rushed but feel I'm losing this quickly and need a speedy solution or at least a speedy start to find a solution.

We've been married 17 years, but grew up from as friends in HS, so we have about 23 years behind us.

Our marriage has been rocky at best, me working nights and her day's for many years.

I 1st found out about her affair the day before New years 12/30/04, from a friend of hers she had been confiding in. It was ugly, but she decided to end the affair and stay in the marriage. It was not good though, we didn’t have sex and she pushed me away everytime I tried to get close her, not just sexually but in life in general. She made it very clear that she was holding me responsible for making her dumb the OM, it had been going on for over a year.

We went to counseling, but the councilor kept telling us we didn’t have a marriage and therefore we couldn’t fix what we didn’t have. We ended up not going back after a couple of months.

Fast forward to April 24th 2006, I had suspected for a while that she was cheating on me again, but didn’t have any proof. I saw the cell phone bill and noticed many many calls to her work voice mail number at all hours of the day, and all of them during non work hours, I questioned her and she denied doing anything wrong. She said she was filing for divorce the next day, I called her dad, and told him, he spent 3-4 hours on the phone with her and told me he was convinced she wasn’t doing anything wrong, but talked her into giving the marriage another 30 days.

On May 11th, WS went out with a girlfriend for drinks, but my guy feeling was that she was lying. A old Marine friend I know online told me to buy some keylooger software. Spectrum Pro, the next morning I woke up and had her passwords to her e-mail accounts, and found out that she was with him (the same OM as before)on May 11th and not the girlfriend. And there was 3 years worth of e-mails from him to her and vise versa, also many emails to this girlfriend putting down in every way imaginable. Also an e-mail a couple of months ago offering OM our garage key code to get into our house. WS had errands to run that morning and I called her dad, and told him I had proof(I told him I had her followed) that she was cheating) He called her the next day and she admitted it, but told him we talked things out the night before and we had the best talk in our whole marriage.

Our talk on may 13th was very good, we talked for 6 hours about everything under the sun, I wanted her to stay in the house, but she said the only way she would do it was to have me okay an open marriage, I said fine, but not with the OM, and she said no way, so I relented and said okay(big mistake)

The last month has been a good one, we've had good sex, had good conversations and good times, She has not seen OM since 05/11(I know this from reading her e-mails to her girlfriend who she tells everything too), but she still emails him My plan was to tell her of my spying this week as I have really felt guilty about it and to tell her I cannot accept letting her still see him or even communicate with him.

I read an e-mail yesterday from her to her girlfriend detailing her sexual fantasies with our neighbor across the street who is married and how she has at least felt him up a couple of times and they have talked dirty a couple of times when he's is out of town 1 night a week. I came unglued and told her about they spying. She came unglued and is now turning the whole thing on my for spying on her, invading her privacy, and now she cannot ever trust me again.

At this point I don’t know what to do. I've called her this am, and she wont respond back to me or e-mail me. I also gave her the ultimatum that it's either him or me. I also told her that she has to quit being friends with her girlfriend who is married and has 8 boyfriends. She started her affair shortly after becoming friends with this girl. By not hearing from her today I fear she has made her decision and has chosen them over me.

I want to talk to her dad and tell him absolutely everything, but don’t know if it's a good idea.
What should I do.


Thank You
Mike K

Mike,

The very best advice I can give you right now is to contact the counseling services on this site. Please! Your fear and panic is causing you to make some very bad choices. Your first marriage counselor was not pro-marriage...get one that is.

I'm so sorry you're hurting!! (((((((((mike)))))))))))

Mike, welcome to MB.

You made a "fatal mistake" in agreeing to an "open marriage," much less to one that includes the other man.

Tell me, do YOU get to boff some other ladies too? Or would your wife object to that? If she is NOT upset by that idea, then she wants the "Swinging" set. Is that what you want?




Gee, no wonder, you AGREED to sharing your wife with any other man she wants to. You agreed to exposing yourself to all sorts of STD's, to her having a child by the OM and YOU getting stuch with raising it, either willingly or unwillingly.

So of course your wife is willing to have "good sex," "good conversations"(as long as they don't require MONOGAMOUS marriage, no USMC Semper Fidelis allowed in this marriage!), and "good times," you AGREED to "play by her rules.

That's like saying "okay Osama, you can hurt whoever you want, just please stay my friend." Friends with the devil will get you "he11 on earth" as a response if you DARE to suggest, let alone say, that their behavior is sinful and WRONG.

Here's the "speedy solution" you were asking for: Confrontation, not appeasement.

Mike, you are MARRIED. I assume you BOTH took vows of fidelity and exclusivity, in good or bad times.

You must have another talk with your wife where you make it plain that your previous agreement to an open marriage WILL NOT WORK. That's not marriage. It is "selfish sex."

If you want some things to do, read up all you can on Plan A and Plan B, because you are likely to have to go to a Plan B AFTER implementing a Plan A for up to 6 months.

But make no mistake about it, a "crisis" must be had before there will be any change.

Think of MB, if it helps you, as a Rifle Squad. We are here to support you, provide ammunition and direction, to be there in the trenches with you as your wife hurls grenades and fires the "Standard Wayward Wife Course 101 Arsenal" at you to try and get you to capitulate to HER terms of having her cake and eating it too (you AND the OM).

Lastly, INTEL is your lifeline right now. You NEED to know what the truth is because your wife WILL lie to you about everything. You need to know to truth to be able to prepare your responses to her and the crazy things she WILL say. Now, on a purely practical front, she keeps the truth from you to keep you in the dark, right? WHY on earth would you reveal YOU intel sources to a liar and a cheat?

She has already chosen "out of the marriage." Your only hope if you want to save the marriage is to know what the truth is and whether or not anything you do is having any effect.

No more revealing your sources of information, okay?

Your right I did, and yes she gave me the green light, not what i want though.


I agree, I screwed up


I am and we did

I did last night and again a few minutes ago on the phone, she sai'd she had lots to think about, I said there should be anything to think about either he is out of your life or I am. she said that's not it, she has to think about if she can ever trust me again ?? i think that is just the anger from her finding out I spied on her.

I cant see ever doing plan b, I do not want to move, and quite frankly dont have the income to support 2 households.



Lastly, INTEL is your lifeline right now. You NEED to know what the truth is because your wife WILL lie to you about everything. You need to know to truth to be able to prepare your responses to her and the crazy things she WILL say. Now, on a purely practical front, she keeps the truth from you to keep you in the dark, right? WHY on earth would you reveal YOU intel sources to a liar and a cheat?

She has already chosen "out of the marriage." Your only hope if you want to save the marriage is to know what the truth is and whether or not anything you do is having any effect.

No more revealing your sources of information, okay? [/quote]
Deal, I wont tell her anymore, but it doesnt matter now, I have no info to gather anymore, she's changed all the passwords, made me uninstall the spyware and wont use the PC anymore because she doesnt trust me not to put it back on.

People who have nothing to hide.....hide nothing. I'm always amazed at how WSs level charges of mistrust when THEY are the ones lying and having affairs. Mike you have a right to know the truth....because her promiscuity puts your health at risk. How can you protect yourself if you blindly believe her lies. You need to read about Plan A and B....and get started with some real strategies for fighting for your marriage in an ethical rather than enabling way.

I appreciate the fact that you want to save your marriage.

What nobody brought up is the question of whether or not your wife has a sexual addiction.

Do you know whether she has experienced being molested when younger??

This is a whole different beast than the normal affair reasons.


Sincerely,
k.d.'s heartbreak

ok, plan A is the carrot and the stick, right? or is there more to it. I have a ton going through my mind right now, and not much of it is sticking, It's kinda like a blur....

I told her on the phone and in person last night. I made a mistake in agreeing to that open thing, and she now say's I lied and am changing the rules and the only reason sghe agreed to stay was because I agreed to it.

No she say's she not thinking that, but only that I violated her trust. And she'll never trust me again, I told her I'm not gonna apologies for finding out the truth about her infidelity, and she's like well you founs it out on may 13th, but yet continued to spy on me, and to a degree she has a point, and I said it was a trust issue and she replied Oh boy is there.. meaning she doesnt trust me.

I told I wasnt worried about her being mad at me because that will pass in time, but that its the OM she had a 3 year affair with that I worry about and that we will not move forward until I know for sure he is gone.

Only problem is that how can I know for sure, she's lied before, the communicate right now by him calling her work and her calling him from work, or she uses payphones when away from work. Plus now she has new passwords and I cannot access her e-mail anymore.

Jeez, I dont know....

Yes she was..... I do not know much about, but it has caused conflicts in the past. for instance, me or my son cannot eat chips or anything crunchy in her precense, she flips out and a councelor told her that is caused by her abuse as a child.

Actually it was not abuse, but a case of child molestation and I dont know how many times it had happened, ie 1 or more times.

Another note, and I dont know if this is relevant or not, but it is not intercourse, it is oral sex only.

Expose, Expose, Expose.

Her family.

The OMW.

Her GF's H.

Anyone who can assist in busting up the A.

...and remember, Plan A is not Plan Appeasement.

...and she says she can't trust YOU?

I know that there are other members out there that have experienced being abused at a young age.

Hopefully, one of them will post.

Mike K -


Well, at least she got one thing right - there is a trust issue. Only it's your trust in her that's been destroyed. She has to regain your trust, and to do that she has to be transparent and honest. But that will only come once NC has been established and she goes through withdrawal.

In the meantime, do what you can to spy. Yes, it feels crappy, but you need it to protect yourself and your family. My wife told me that there had been NC between her and OM, except for one time that she told me about - and then I got into one of her e-mail accounts and low and behold, there was a lot more contact than she had said.

What other's have said and will say is true - at this point in the game you cannot believe anything she tells you until and unless you can verify it for yourself.

Don't listen to her accusations. She'll try and turn everything against you to justify her affair.

Start your plan A. Identify those areas in yourself that you need to improve and work on, and let her babble slide off your shoulders.

Mike K -


It doesn't matter if they're simply shaking hands at lunch. The point is that she's investing herself emotionally and on some level physically in man OTHER THAN HER HUSBAND. She is robbing you of what she promised you when you got married. The actual acts, and to what degree, are, IMO, totally irrelevant.

I don't know if this is what she told you, or if it's what you've found out. If she told you, I wouldn't believe it. My wife, upon admitting the initial A, told me it was only oral, and only one time. Turned out that it wasn't only oral, and it wasn't only one time...took me a month to drag the details out (not the nitty-gritty details, just the high-level view).

Check out Longhorn's Newly Betrayed Spouses thread - it's got good information from Longhorn, MrWondering and UVA's war room post in it.

Mike K - SmartCookie is a FWW (Former Wayward Wife) who was abused in child hood. She may be able to give you some insight, or even talk to your wife when/if she's willing and will come on the boards.

Mike, forgive me but you're flailing around without rhyme or reason at the moment. If you're going to save this marriage, you need a lot of dedication, patience, and most of all, a plan of action. In my signature block, there’s a link to a thread outlining an organized way of marital recovery. Please check that thread out. I think it’ll give you a good idea of where you are, where you should be, and what you can do in the future. Read that and then let all of us work with you to figure out how to salvage things. It’s going to be hard work, Mike.

When you’re ready to start working on this, there are details that will be needed. It’ll be important to know if they met at the workplace and whether they still work together, or if they met through other organizations, etc. Does your wife work at all? What do you know about the other man (OM)? Is he married? Where does he live? Where does he work? Disregard absolutely everything your wife has told you about him. Tell us only what you know that has been verified by outside sources.

Do you have children living in the home? If so, what are their ages? Do they know what is going on?

Are you active duty? Is the OM also military? Give us as many relevant details about the situation as you can, Mike. When in doubt, provide more information rather than less. It’s possible something you didn’t think important will give someone out here an idea of how best to proceed in your situation. You’re anonymous out here--one face among 300 million other Americans. Use that anonymity, okay?

Get the keylogger back on the PC. Don’t assume she’s really not using it when you’re not there. Verify. Can you get to her cell phone records online? Check out the “Spying 101” link in my signature block also. It may key something in your mind about how to get more information about this adultery. Don’t apologize or feel bad about spying. It is she who has made this absolutely necessary, not you. If she weren’t committing adultery and giving you subtle signals you picked up instinctively without spying, you wouldn’t be doing it.

Mike, we’re all sorry to see you here on MB because only one reason brings anyone here. You’ll find a support group here, Mike. All of us have gone through what you are facing today and we’ve come through sane and whole. So will you.

Longhorn,

Former Marine, been out a long time, and OM is a civie.

They met at a workplace but neither still work there. WS has told me almost the complete truth about him, left out a few details, but for the most part I believe it's the truth. Remember, I had access to her e-mails for a month and read many, many e-mails from and to him and her, also many e-mails to the only 2 friends of hers that she has confided in. Everything checks out. The biggest lie though is that she origionaly told me on D-Day that he was just F buddy, and nothing more. Then 2 weeks later, she told me he was also a very close friend as well.
All her e-mails say differently though. and that she would his for as long as he wanted her.

We have one child age 13.

I did call her friend's husband today(she is married and has 8 boyfriends, and I feel is totally enabling my WS, and telling her go girl and get some and stuff like that in dozens of e-mails.) I exposed her to him, he was not happy. Not sure if that was a good idea or not, but I dont want my WS being best friends with that girl anymore.

WS works, OM works but have no idea where, he is divorced 2 or 3 times now, all I have for him is a phone number and nothing else. I have called it a few times but always get voice mail.

I'll check out the link you gave me and thank you all for your help.

Mike,

So much to say, so little time.

First...
Longhorn is right. You seem to be flying by the seat of your pants. You need a plan. You need to be making all future decisions... not from desperation or the emotion of the moment... but based on a specific strategy.

Plan A...
Since I'm not a BS (betrayed spouce) I'm no expert on plan A. (Someone wanna tell Mike the best place to read-up on plan A??? Quickly!) But I can tell you what my husband did that had an impact on me, and I think much of it would fit into Plan A:

(1) He told me -- and showed me with his actions -- that he loves me deeply, but that he would not be a doormat nor stay in a marriage indefinately where he wasn't wanted. You need your wife to know that she is loved and cherished, but that she can't stomp on you.

(2) He immediately took inventory of the things he had done that had damaged our relationship, vowed to change those things, and started taking action to do so. Have you figured out what you did to hurt your wife over the last 17/23 years? What do you plan to do to change?

(3) He printed out the article "Why women leave men" from this web site, gave it to me, and said, "I think this explains why you lost your love for me. I need a chance to make it up to you." (that's how I got sucked into this web site/message board, lol).

(4) He started giving me attention and affection without smothering me appearing needy or clingy.

As I understand it, Mike, plan A is all about being the most compassionate, empathetic, loving, caring, strong, self-confident, in control, self-loving, attractive person you can be... in order to woo your wife back to you. I bet that sounds virtually impossible when your in the middle of the most painful crisis of your life, huh? Perhaps your military triaining could help you here. Try to think of it as a mission you must carry out according to plan -- even when your actions feel counter-intuitive. Follow the plan.


Your wife's history of sexual abuse and it's roll in all of this....
I guess this is where I may have some actual insight (why broken bird asked me to look in on you). I suspect her abuse has more to do with where the two of you are now than either of you realizes. From what you've said, I'm guessing she told you awhile back about the abuse, but didn't share many details, and tried to downplay the fact that it has had any lingering effects on her. Is that right?

I did basically the same thing with my husband.

You said a counselor told her about the chip-crunching thing being related to her abuse... was that personal counseling? when you were in marriage counseling? How much counseling has she had?

I ask because my abuse twisted me up in ways that I had NO IDEA. I guess you could say I was in a type of denial about it all. And I'm betting that she's in the same boat right now. After a few months of counseling, I'm just now... 30+ years later... starting to figure it out.

Apparently, statistics show that abuse victims are much more likely to cheat and to have other types of relationship problems than people who were not abused. Makes sense if you think about it.

The bottom line here, I think, is that she has some serious isssues she needs to address if the two of you are going to save your marriage (and, more importantly, have a happy marriage.) Do you think she'd be willing to do that?

Because, unless she'll work on herself, there's only so much you can do.

What you CAN do... learn all you can about plan A and get to work implimenting it.

I wish you the best Mike. I'm sorry about what's happening to you. But this is a wonderful place to find support and guidance. Keep posting. Fill-in some of the missing details in your story... and you will find a world of support here.

--SC

Do some reading, Mike, and come back to us. I'd recommend editing your post and remove all names from it. That helps preserve your anonymity.

Check out a reverse directory to find out more information about OM. You can get valuable information at such places as Zabasearch.com, Peoplefinders.com, or People Search (http://find.intelius.com/). If you have the resources to do it, a Private Investigator can develop all kinds of information on an individual in a very short period.

Check the times/dates on a sample of those emails to see if OM is possibly emailing from his workplace. If he is, his workplace (Human Resources Director) is a legitimate place to expose his adultery to.

Finally, do NOT accept what the OM has told your wife as necessarily being true. Guess what? Cheaters lie. It's what they do to keep the adultery going and they will lie to each other too.

I don't think it was wrong at all to expose WW's girlfriend to the girlfriend's husband. It serves two purposes. First, her husband deserved to know about the problem in his marriage. If you saw a burglar smashing a window to get into his house, you’d make sure the appropriate authorities knew about it, right? What his wife is doing is a crime against their marriage. Second, if WW’s girlfriend is busy dealing with her own marriage and her husband, she’ll be too busy to be enabling your WW in her adultery.

Well, I exposed WW to her boss just a few minutes ago. Now I'm worried that she may get fired, as she uses internet web mail and work phone to facilitate her affair. He boss told me that the issue had benn addressed in the last few weeks with WW, but I told the boss that WW was on web mail all day long this last Tuesday. I'm concerned for her job now. And really wonder if I did more harm than good.

I also called the phone number for the OM and left a message for him to call me. Dont know if he will and I didnt leave my name, just said to call me and lft my work phone number.

I can tell you I've never been so scared in my life, more so than I ever was in the Marines.

This is the 1st I've been able to log on since yesterday afternoon, so I havnt had a chance to do any reading yet as Longhorn has suggested. But I have a feeling that tonight is really going to suck, especially if WW gets councelled at work.

Question, say her boss doesnt say anything to her, but is going to secretly monitor her web and phone use. Do I tell WW that I called the boss and that she better be careful? My fear is that since she was already talked to, that the boss could terminate her from her job, finacially that would be devestating and probably would do more harm than good as far as saving our marriage. One thing I will not do is appologize for doing it.

I have to stop the A, and by cutting off their communication method is the only way I know how. Actually it's not really cuttting it off, they are allowed to use phone and internet on breaks and lunches.

Again, all your help is appreciated....
Mike_K

the only good thing about this is ~~~> no pregnancy risk

STDs are easily contracted via oral sex

~how~ do you know this is factual, by the way?

Pep