Hello,

I’m planning on separating from my wife and need some advice please…(infidelity on her part, I will not live with this in my life)

I have been trying to discuss separation with her for several weeks but she refuses to discuss anything with me, she gets angry, yells, say’s disrespectful things to me…all hel_ breaks lose, I’m always calm and I think that upsets her more. She says she won’t sign anything, won’t sell the house (she’s co-owner). She just won’t talk to me about it, meanwhile we are sleeping in different rooms, and other than pleasantries every now and then it’s a very intense situation. We have three kids and I don’t want to make this any harder on them, then it already is. Every word that comes out of my mouth no matter how nice is always met with anger.

How can I move this forward?
Must I have my Lawyer do everything?
Can she somehow prevent separation from happening or just make it terribly expensive and painful?
How can I talk with her? Maybe with a mediator?

Any suggestions are welcome; I’m struggling here and want to move on with my life, I have been in pain for three years now and only now do I see my answers to my happiness.

Thank you
GR

Three years ago she was having an affair and she’s still having one?

Tons of big hugs.

Do you want a separation or a divorce? You may not know the answer to that right now because you may not have enough information.

Either way, you need a lawyer to help you understand the laws in your state and the way your judges work. Many states don’t have legal separation. And the property and child custody gets nuts. In my state, the custody can vary from county to county.

I think you should also talk to a lawyer asap because if your wife is stonewalling you after all this time, refusing to sign anything, she may already have had advice from a lawyer. Sometimes a year or two will entitle a wife to alimony or other assets she might not have had before. Or she could be wracking up credit card debt.

It’s really not worth the risk of not having a lawyer. In the end it could cost you a LOT more.

I wish Husband of FenceSitter (HoFS) was still around. He lived with his wife for about two years after filing for divorce. In the end, he got the house and the children, but it was tough.

How can I move this forward?
Don't move out. You could be risking giving up your house and kids if you plan on keeping them.

Must I have my Lawyer do everything?
Pretty much is she will not talk to you about it.

Can she somehow prevent separation from happening or just make it terribly expensive and painful?
Yes she can, all you can do is get a lawyer. You need to figure out were you stand with bills and loans and credit cards. You need to protect yourself and the kids. Cancell all credit cards that are joint. If you need one get it in your name only. A good lawyer or finance person can help get you going in the right track.

How can I talk with her? Maybe with a mediator? Usually that ends up being your lawyer and hers if she can get one. So times it just takes some time for things to settle down. Just be pleasent as possible. Never have fights infront of the kids. Usually they need to be gone or you need to go away and take from them were they can her nothing. They have enough stress.

Does she work? Does she want you to leave? Do you want to work it out at all, or are you set in your way? Be careful that she doesn't file a restraining order on you to get you out of the house.

How about a vacation? Just a break by yourself, leave a week or two and clear your head. Take along a few books on separation and divorce if you want to. Maybe even a week off would help. There's a good book Divorce for Dummies that has info on what to consider even if separating that I just reread the other night, especially thoughts on how to cover yourself legally.

You may have to have your lawyer do everything, yes, if what you're dealing with is nothing but yelling.

Good luck to you. Whatever you do don't move out. You'll risk losing the house.

I am gut_rot's wife... here is my life, in a nut shell.

20 years together, three kids, did not work when kids were little. Stayed home for 12 years.
Almost three years ago, My Mom died and was taking her loss really well, so I thought. I was feeling good about myself because I was losing weight and back to work and making a little money. I was making friends and having a nice time while I was at work. I was a little neive about the sort of folks I was hanging around with, but to me, all people are good. My husband was busy working every weekend, day in and day out. I was always asking him to do things with me but he always said he had to work. It was his hobby and a pipe dream he was working on. I went out to this "so called" pick up joint, but they had dancing and it was always crowded. I danced and danced all night long. I met someone there and he was very attentive to me. Talking and so on. I liked it. I met him again the weekend later and my husband was encouraging me to go because he wanted to work on his project. I drank a lot that night, at least I think I did, and we ended up in the back of a van. It went too far and I was devistated. I had bruses on me afterwards and I know that was out of character for me. Something that I would have never done. I went home that night in a daze. Knowing what I did was horrid. I had no fear of my husband finding out, because he trusted me whole heartedly.
Because this encounter was haunting me, I decided to search on the internet for help. All these searches were not deleted from my google search and one day my husband was working on my computer and found out all of these searches.
He confronted me on this and I denied anything was going on with me and I blamed I was looking for these topics for a friend. He kinda believed me and we moved on. Just for a couple of months at a time. Never forever. From that point on I wasn't thinking of him anymore, just me. I made my life all about me, because I was in denial. Just a month ago, my husband couldn't take it anymore, had enough of my lies and wanted the truth. He told me that if I didn't tell him the truth, he would someday find out and that would be the end of us. So I brokedown and told him the horrid story. He was not surprised and glad I told him and I had the guts to tell the truth. He bugged me and bugged me to find out if there was any other incident that he should know about. There was, a year ago. I was taken by surprise by one of my coworkers. I told him that his forced a kiss on me one night and the next day at work it was never spoken of again. My husband made me call him on a Sunday night while he listened in. To ask him if we did anything together. That guy denied that anything happened on the phone. My husband called him at work and asked him straight up and again he denied anything happened. I was so upset that I ended up taking a leave of absence from work and so did my husband. We talked for days about everything. It was very hard to do, but we did. He told me that he has decided to make a commitment to our relationship. I was so happy. My love of my life is going to try. We both decided to go back to work after a week off. Money is tight. So this is where it gets bad. I have a hard time talking about the incidents and he always wants to. All day every day. So I cannot handle it. I told him if we have to talk about it all the time, I cannot do it. Now, this past Friday, he told me can't do it anymore and he wants to end our marriage. I was enraged. I went off the handle and started to throw things around the garage. I freaked out to put it lightly! Anyhow, I went to a marriage councellor that day and she was great. But her advice to me was to forgive myself first before I can move on in my relationship. How do I do that? and what will it accomplish?
To update... my Dad has been diagnosed with Cancer and only has a little time on this earth. I have been dealing with that by taking care of him 6 hours away for a week at a time. When I was driven to the airport I broke down, but, throughout that week I was dealing with them(my husband and my father) not being around anymore. I asked him to leave the bedroom and he did. Then as the week went on, he emailed me more questions about everything and everyone I have associated with in the past three years. I was open and honest and told him on an email reply all his answers. He was good with it.. We had great sex and he slept in the bed for two nights. Then all of a sudden, he pulled the rug out from underneath me.. told me again, he cannot deal with two encounters... as mentioned above and he wants a divorce. And I have to deal with this along with my Dad dying. This is where we are now, and I do love him and I have told him sorry for the millionth time. I am done saying sorry. I am sure he knows now. But, he has never ever gone to a marriage councellor or even tried to work on our marriage. We have three beautiful kids together.

I know that in some sick way, we can work this out. I have enough love for both of us. But, I am just dreaming, or should I just give in and let him go? I am not crazy, but when my life is falling apart in all directions, I have to hold on to my family.

HI GR, SA,

Any chance you two could call the counceling center here, and talk with one of the Harleys directly? Seems you two are on the verge of falling apart, and you sure could use the help. Just a thought - Dru

[b]The Marriage Builders® Counseling & Coaching Center[/b]

Thank you for your posts everyone.

Your too late SA, you have changed nothing in three years, even to this day! I personally can’t re-build 3 years of lies & cheating. I know longer know who you are, but do know what you are capable of. In three years I have been to IC many times, I have read more about relationships then I have read in my lifetime. I know myself better now than I have ever known myself. I have identified my own problems and will not let them rise again in my life. I am a much better person, and I thank you for that.

If I was you and you were me and loved you like you say you love me, this is what would have been different…
I would never talk bad about you, until it was over and we were apart!
I would never ever talk about my relationship with work people, especially if I managed them.
I would answer every question with all honesty, I would make it my new responsibility to shed any doubt from your mind, I would tell you everything and let you decide if you still wanted me.
I would tell you the same truth every time you asked me a question, my story would never change as truths don’t
I would re-assure you on things I felt you were uncertain off
I would be forthcoming with information
I would hold your hand every time we drove by the place of deception.
I would never ever lie to you again. And mean it!
I would not allow new friends or old to take me away from you or my kids like before.
I would disassociate with any friends you felt jeopardized our relationship or family, without even thinking about it.
I would never drink again unless you were with me and drinking, or said you were ok with it, because I know this is what caused all this. The key ingredient!
I would never sleep over at anyone’s house ever again for any reason.
I would quit any job I had that you felt was having a negative impact on our lives. I would quit anything for our relationship!!!!
I would focus on our kids and you only, until I was worthy of extending myself to others
I would change my phone number. I would lose my cell phone
I would tell you everything I did each day, day in and day out until you were sick of hearing it.
I would do things with you only and help you learn again why you loved me
I would do new things with you for the first time
I would focus so much on you, us and our kids that you would really need to try hard to bring up the past.
I would understand when something triggered your pain, I would ask you what it was, and I would hold you until the pain was gone.
I would face you and not let anything go unresolved.
I would sacrifice my happiness for yours and have it returned again when you are happy.

This is the labor of unconditional love in my eyes, it is not a chore, and it is not difficult for the sincere.

This is what I would do for the person whom I say I loved more than anything in this world and this is what I would have done the moment I knew you knew what I did (i.e. one month after it happened, not let you suffer with it for 3 years while I continued on the same path, doing the same things), I would have faced what I did to you and then proved to you how sorry I was, not with words or empty promises but with actions. You would see how sorry I was and you would see my sincerity, you would forgive me for what I have done to you because my actions speak my heart, and you would love me more than you ever have before because my changes would change you and us forever.

If after all this you could still not see me for who I really am, then I have truly failed you, I have lost you, I have lost what meant the world to me for my mistakes, and I have learned, I have become a better person and will cherish what I have learned for the rest of my life. I would never hate you; I would respect you for what I have put you through and I would understand your decision no matter how difficult it would be for me to understand.

You couldn’t have been further away from this even if you tried; you have changed nothing and wait for me to come to you.

GR

Hey GR,

You're full of venom and spite - get out. You do not need her permission, people do it all the time. Pack your bags and leave. She'll have to 'deal' with it all once it's actually happened. - Dru

Wow, GR...I didn't see where you acknowledged the great advice of calling the Harleys...

I see you having three years of resentments, judgments, expectations, anger, frustration, entitlement and lack of respect.

In all your honesty, GR...so you can walk away from your marriage with that great feeling of knowing you did everything you possibly could for you, the children and your future's benefit...

Lemme ask you...

"I have been in pain for three years now and only now do I see my answers to my happiness."

What does this mean? Really?

Because what I hear is leaving for someone else...even an illusion in your head...someone you made up, much like your post, to compare your WW to...not real. She's not you. Expecting her to be is disrespectful. You're you. Only responsible for you...and the way you love...resent...what you learn and refuse to learn...

Sounds like SA likes to be the victim of stuff...SA? If you didn't have your mother's death and your father's recent diagnosis...would you have grabbed onto the victim mentality...you CHOSE to cheat...each step...and you're not there in owning what is yours...your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...your actions and words...knowing why you did what you did...and why you thought it was out of character for you...like a surprise...have you not run to fantasy in your head to soothe, comfort, accompany your life, when you faced neglect, all those feelings of being last place, unimportant or erased by your H? Because you sound foggy...like you still don't get you are all powerful over yourself...you really are. What you do, you own...if the choice to see that man again who you believe assaulted you, which isn't what I'm talking about...your intent got you into the back of the van...what he did, he did...and if the police weren't called, that's your choice.

I'm harsh and truthful. You both can save this marriage...and it is more than worth it...until you both get really honest with yourselves...not each other...then be assured, you will repeat these same patterns with others...will look different and feel the same, time and time again.

Call the Harleys, or get a great Christian pro-marriage counselor...give yourselves six months to throw away 20 years...and only look inward...remove blame from your vocabulary and insert ownership...concentrate on your own stuff...make your goal to know you're whole...neither one defective, bad or wrong...humans are complete and marvelously made...you BOTH are no exceptions...and you're both equal...

And as for all your I would's, GR....we cannot not walk in those woulds...you don't know until you are in her shoes...and I have a feeling, you might find yourself there with the amount of resentment you've created in yourself...look back on your life and find out how many times you said, "If this happens, I'd feel/do this!" and it didn't, and you didn't...because you knew more, had experienced more, since you'd made that prediction.

When we go to shoulds/woulds/have tos/ought to's...we are in that super painful place inside us...our youngest self...and operating from there...desperate for power to stop hurting, strength to stop others...and the furthest away from reality...

Grab hold with two hands, GR...this isn't judgment or me calling you stupid or wrong...this is me calling you out...handing you all your power...of choice, owning what is yours...you can only control you, are only responsible for you, and you cannot, by God's design of humans, be the cause, control or cure of your WW...you can't. Impossible.

Nor she, you.

Love is a choice--a truth you have to choose to believe, as adults...not something earned...not a shield...not a wall...not a weapon...love does not protect you...does not ensure you experience nothing but happiness...love is a belief that no matter what we do, we cannot be undone.

Love is a choice to be respectful of your separate selves...not DJing like you do, GR...or like you, SA...love respects, acts and is NOT earned...nor is punishment...retaliation...those aren't your adult selves...you can see that...

And hurting back does not make your spouse stop hurting you, GR. Pain comes only from within...others can't do that to us...we have control of that...our job is to know our pain, joy, make love a choice and live to our own standards and boundaries...not others...nor hold them to ours.

Holding others to your standards is unreasonable and undoable...they have their own. To do so is a disrespectful life...full of judgment, anger, bitterness--from the inside...

You are separate and equal to everyone on the planet...both of you are...before a word is spoken or an action taken...you are whole, complete; valuable and worthy.

Know this...live this...commit to six months with no thoughts of any others in your head...get clarity before decision, choice before action...stop reacting and act.

I lived this...I know. Life on the other side is worth all of it...and it becomes life abundant, not constrained...it is a place of two WHOLES becoming one...and I am whole for the first time in my life...my H doesn't complete me...we complement each other. Because we found our power and our limits...

You can, too.

LA

Thanks again for you time and posts;

It has been a tuff three years for me, because SA’s habits didn’t change as she didn’t admit to what she did until two months ago, even though I explained every detail three years back, confronted her with proof, she denied me! So yes, much resentment, frustrations have built.

When I say “now and only now do I see my answers to my happiness”, this is because she told me what she did, no more assumptions for me. I can make decisions when I have facts. If I entertain the idea of staying married to SA: I see more pain, I see her doing it again when upset with me or drunk, I see living with someone I can’t possibly trust, I see always questioning her whereabouts, I see her trying to appease me but not sincerely doing so, and I see myself controlling her. I don’t want this and I can’t live like this. I don’t feel secure committing the rest of my life to her..
When I look at my future without her, I see my happiness return because I no longer need live with a person that has betrayed me in so many ways and in the worst way, I see my strength returning and my desires. I don’t feel as if I’m being coned into something like I have been for three years. I can move forward without questions, and finally put this pain to rest deep within myself. This is my answer to my happiness; I can’t suffer any longer with this, I can’t continue to make SA suffer, nor our kids, it’s far too destructive for everyone. I can also see happiness with other woman (no I don’t have one), knowing people exist in our world that would not betray someone in this way makes me happy (people like me). Don’t get me wrong, I do have my own issue and through SA I have identified many of them…I know what I must do to be a better person to the person I love. I just can’t give this to SA anymore because I don’t feel safe doing so.

Knowing someone for 20 years, and being apart of there life for so long…you know them (or you think you do), lets just say you know them better than anyone else. We can’t possibly explain 20 years or even 3 effectively on MB or in a session with the Harleys. We can only take what people offer us here and somehow integrate it with what we both understand about ourselves and know about our relationship. I take every word positive or negative and process what can only make sense to me.

SA has always played the victim, and has blamed me many times for what she did…her cup has always been half empty, she always gets scre_ed…she searches for sympathy for any problem in her life and will latch onto anyone that gives it to her, she is non-confrontational so If you don’t agree with her or confront her she will disassociate herself from you….I knew SA for all this and always felt I was the one consistent thing in her life, I would always be here for her…She reached past me and found illusions of things that were better for her, they consumed her, changed her, and ultimately made her into something she was not. She’s lost and no one is helping her find her way or focus. She listens to many people that want what is best for her but she can’t decide the best one to go with or what is best for herself, yet if she listened to her heart it would tell her what she must do.

As for all my “I woulds” I truly believe that If a person was my life I would do anything to keep that person, or at minimum try them all and if to no avail, take my only option and leave. I would never betray my partner in life in this way, ever, I would first try to improve the relationship to meet what I was missing (EN), and if we couldn’t improve, I would leave. Then and only then do as I please. Part of me does what to get back at her, and do what she has done to me so she can feel this pain. But I know I could never do this and won’t.

I’m a non-judgmental person, you must prove to me why I don’t want you in my life, then I can make decisions in my mind if that’s ok with me. As for holding people to my standards, if you asked me what they were I couldn’t tell you…but I do have morals and will not betray my partner in anyway…relationships or business or life. So if morals are a standard that I wish someone would have like me, then yes I am guilty of holding people to my standards.

Quote: “When we go to shoulds/woulds/have tos/ought to's...we are in that super painful place inside”
Or, we are explaining how we would deal with something we now know. People do need control of themselves and if changing something provides it or appears to provide it we do it if we can.

I have always thought of SA as my equal, though her lack of self-confidence would make this appear false.

Drucilla, you know I don't really see myself as full of venom (maybe pain that never got to see the light), to me it seems clear and I think my words direct.

Thanks for your time everyone and LovingAnyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, I will still read the good, bad or ugly to rationalize myself.

GR

I'm confused, GR...

You said you knew...had proof...that it was only her lying for three years...her not admitting...

Why would that hold you back? You had THE truth.

You had your choice and freedom to choose then, and you didn't. Why did her refusal to confirm matter?

Why does your truth depend on hers?

And what I hear you saying is because you chose to make it dependent on her owning up, you only got your freedom of choice now...

You are giving up on your marriage because of the unknown, is that correct? You see the future as more pain and suffering...so did my WH...most waywards do...because that's how they justified their affairs...rewriting the past and determining the future before it arrived...instead of staying present.

One day at a time.

All us humans have. And we all have it in common.

You say there will be someone out there who won't betray...is that correct? Would you have said that of WW, 17 years into your marriage? Do you believe that telling yourself replacing WW will keep you safe? Is that your truth?

You're talking to someone who believed people were replaceable for most of her life...until I finally got that they aren't. No way. And I figured out if I was going to learn this life was about me, not my spouse, then replacing all that history, knowledge, was more full of the unknown than accepting our past, joining our present and leaving the future where in reality it always is...in the future.

"confronted her with proof, she denied me! So yes, much resentment, frustrations have built." Resentment and frustrations were built...like a third-party doing it...you did it. You did it by not believing yourself, knowing you were choosing to build...and you re-experience the past over and over again as you play with your future...predicting it gives you all the emotions as if they are happening TODAY...and you've worn yourself out.

She hasn't.

I know this. I did this, also. I believe your WW does this. I believe it is what we're taught...what we trigger to...how we relive the past enough to implode.

I didn't know my H...I DJ'd him...full of assumptions and mindreading...living a disrespectful life. Familiarity is not knowing...living disrespectfully is by choice. You can choose differently.

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I thought your name was apt...Gut-Rot...where pain eats away from the inside, where it comes from, when you're busy looking at the source, outside yourself...and you'll take that Gut Rot with you...sadest part.

Gotta run...I'm posting because I care about you. Not attacking...my way of sharing, caring for you and SA.

I was her.

I was you.

I get it.

I pray you do.

LA

You’re a tuff cookie aren’t you LA

I had tons of proof, but it was lied to as to whom it was for, it was all for someone else; from searching the internet for cyber sex to a pregnancy test she bought. I knew in my gut she did this and I tried to make it work just the same, I couldn’t do it. I needed confirmation before I made a life altering decision such as this….And yes, I did only get my freedom to choose now, as I refused to believe myself and what was staring me in the face.

I’m not giving up on the unknown, my wife is not unknown, I know her well…I see what she does, how she manipulates things, I see where she is going…it’s not the same place I am. I really don’t understand why you keep assuming I am or will become a WH, I will not. I will not let myself do that to anyone, I will not put myself in that position.

Three years ago I would have told you SA would never ever cheat on me, impossible. What I didn’t know is that she was capable of it. If you let yourself play the game long enough the outcome is guaranteed. Yes I do believe woman are out their that may play, but quit long before the game starts…its called flirting, and I’m good at it like many people. I just know when to go home and so do many other people. Even in the lowest low of 20 years the thought was not there for me, it was never an option to cheat.

I agree that know one is replaceable, only one is made of each. I would like to be SA’s friend, I can work with that but nothing more.

Of course we build our own “pains”, we are given the pieces though. I did not believe in myself because everything I thought and asked about was turned away as nothing, I second guessed myself and my feelings. I re-experienced the past many many times because of issues that were not resolved, and were not allowed to be resolved by SA. I have worn myself out with this, too many variables for me to deal with.

Somehow LA, I think you believe I will be self defeating by committing the same act of betrayal, and that you are giving me a heads up to this? I will never do this I can assure you and SA. It’s the one guarantee I can offer my partner. Pretty comforting isn’t it.

Thanks again LA for your qords a thoughts

GR

p.s. you were her but not me, you have much experiences to share and I truly appreciate it, and your time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

some notes to reply
-I am not a maniupulator. I am a survivor of one night stand, who didn't know how to deal with it at the time. Two and half years of pain too here.
-I finally opened up and told the truth. The saying goes"the truth shall set you free"... ... It has set me free in a way I didn't want.

SA, you are manipulating the discussion by telling things that only favor yourself…just a on-night-stand (not that it can favor anyone), a ONS is just that ONE night, it does not include planning, or previously meeting and necking with the person. What do we call the months after your ONS when you were online chatting with men about sex every night? What do we call it when you’re on a dating service and agree to meet men for coffee? Or, the fact your two best friends were doing the same thing as you, except full blown affairs! (maybe that is what you did, who knows right) These people you see or call every single day! How about when you get drunk and sleep over at your girlfriend’s house? Or, how you would ask your friends to cover for you when out? Or the 20 year old you stayed out with till three in the morning (alone, and he worked with you, also) on two separate occasions (because you were mad at me), same scenario as your ONS isn’t it, but nothing happened right, only necking. He spreads rumors at your work that you gave him a bj in a back alley, humm why would a kid say something like that about my wife? How about you going for lunch with an un-happily married co-worker (he buys), he obviously has interest in you, no? why encourage it? Odd also that the bouncer of the bar you had your ONS in the parking lot of works with you.

You see SA it is much more complicated than ONS or at least what a ONS represents, these are all the activities I found out about on my own, you have never told me anything in three years that I didn’t already know and told you first, right?....when you finally told be about your ONS and said that was all you ever did…3 days later I find out about the 20 year old guy, and more just kept rolling in. Hard to trust is an understatement.

These things set your true intentions, and you are most certainly not a victim. These help people help understand both our situations so they may offer better informed help.

GR

Whatever! He loves that line! ...... You made me go there..btw.....

SA, nobody made you go there.

You can address his real concerns here, or you can stone-wall and blow him off with a whatever.

Saying someone made you go there makes it sound like you have no control over yourself, that you are a victim.

Until, proven otherwise, you are an adult woman, who makes her own decisions, and owns the outcome of those decisions.

"Whatever" sounds so Jr High to me. It certainly doesn't sound like someone who takes responsibility for her actions, or someone who is making a plan to rebuild trust.

You are an adult, the choice is yours, to face the music, in a fashion that enables the two of you to grow towards a better relationship. Or you can just dismiss the very important information Gut_Rot just gave you, and reject his feelings at this point.

You just unloaded your guilt on him. Guilt that you've carried for some time now. Do you expect that he is just going to say, OK, let's move on?

He gets to choose how he feels, not you.

But if you don't want him to continue to feel this way, you will have to come up with something more supportive than, "Whatever."

If you care for him, I don't see it in your posts here. I see someone who is defensive and trying to justify how she feels.

Gut Rut - I am new here on the boards, I sense your pain. Yes...your wife betrayed you and lied to you. As my ex did the same to me and now I am divorced for 4 years. I read your wifes response....and she is scared and inside crying. As I read both your words...the only way that I feel you 2 could get back together....is with intense counseling....marital couseling. We all make mistakes....and if she is deeply sorry....willing to go to counseling....and you feel you could forgive her (obviously that is not expected now)....there is a chance that this marriage could be saved. In our marriage....counseling was incorporated. My ex just didn't want to make the effort. The only commitment that you should expect at this time....is for both of you to make the trips to counseling....and to not love bust. Otherwise there are no commitments. This will be a long process....trust takes a long time to come back. Sometimes it doesn't come back....and then you know you both must go your own way.

Hope this little bit of information is helpful.

EnEx...great advice to SA...would you also give it to GR, also?

"Saying someone made you go there makes it sound like you have no control over yourself, that you are a victim."

One cannot do this dance alone...there are two of them, and they've been doing this dance of you-made-me a long time.

She set him free by finally being honest...

Lots of pain on both sides here...

GR wrote: "And yes, I did only get my freedom to choose now, as I refused to believe myself and what was staring me in the face." SA gave him his freedom because he refused to believe himself.

GR & SA:

I am not saying this in sarcasm.

I am being tough, not passive, because you came here, looking for the truth of relationships...what's real, what you can give yourself permission for and what you will not...because some of those permissions are toxic...

You wanted honesty, direct information...that's what I got. You know you've been done wrong...I'm not going to commiserate, only validate. Your feelings are yours. They are valid.

The future is unknown...not predictable...to believe otherwise is fantasy. Tell me, if you are making your present decision based on a known future, how reasonable is that, given the future is unknown?

If people were known...really known...you would have known she would seek fantasy as an escape from her suffering...if you would have had this future in mind three years ago, exactly as it is...and you could not...because it was unknown. Humans are capable of anything...their choice. Not owning your human choice leads to a lot of bad choices.

SA made a lot of bad choices...the worst was her perspective. Finding comfort elsewhere...attention, admiration, interest, appreciation...whatever it was...she chose to be open to other men online and in person...and you chose to know and make your life contingent on her admission or denial...you stayed as long as she denied...and are now leaving because she admitted.

You knew she was lying even as you asked her time and time again for the truth...

I want you to see your part, your strength and denial, so you will walk away from 20 years of your life, that you chose, with more knowledge that you came into it with...how much you both learned together in 17 years...how much they matter...get all your lessons so you will not be reliving this exact same scenario in two years.

Or three.

Or six months.

"I know her well…I see what she does, how she manipulates things,"

Do you manipulate? Do you make your choices based on possible responses...probable ones, or do you choose from your own code, act not react?

"I see where she is going…it’s not the same place I am."

This is a DJ...a big one. People change, GR...they do. That's why the future is unknown...people ripple around the world; all of us affect one another, even unseen. People grow, deny or resist it...blame others for what is their own...yet they grow...You and SA could change your beliefs and change your lives because you looked inside and found the irrational ones and replaced them with ones you already have from your adult experience.

"are I really don’t understand why you keep assuming I am or will become a WH, I will not."

Wayward is a state of mind...not an act of the body, GR. It is when you are filled to the brim with resentment, which entitles you, and you lack respect for others.

You know where adultery begins? In the mind. "I'm never good enough for him...no matter what I do, he tears me down, punishes me...withdraws and rejects me. I'm not trash! I won't be thrown away!"...that's resentment, wrapped in blame, powerlessness (victimhood), being done to and then doing the unthinkable...

I don't assume...GR, I'm directing you to something very subtle and sophisticated. Those lines, substitute any resentment and blame you can relate to, and find where you went against the marriage...wayward...

"I will not let myself do that to anyone, I will not put myself in that position." Do you mean this in a physical sense? Infidelity is when you compare your wife to others and find her lacking, broken...defective...someone else out there is better...porn is infidelity of the mind...using humans as objects...which trains our brains to use all humans as objects...keeps us safe from intimacy.

I am talking about having feelings for others...receiving love bank deposits from women who are not your wife...and closing off her ability to make deposits. That's what A's do...the supplant the marriage, the relationship.

Resentment can do this...we can feed off of it until we embitter ourselves...which is our choice, our doing...and we turn from the marriage. We can feed of retaliation, revenge, getting justice or truth...and in doing so, turn ourselves wayward...like having an affair with any one of those things.

Where your focus is, there is your treasure.

We no longer treasure our spouses, our marriages when we cannot treasure our spouses' actions...we treasure our resentment, injury, entitlement and the lack of respect is us choosing to believe we are being trapped by, held hostage, made to feel what we ourselves are creating.

"because everything I thought and asked about was turned away as nothing,"

Your pain came from your expectation of her telling you truth...are you saying that she turned your requests away as nothing...that she felt they were nothing or you believed she felt they were nothing? I'm not clear.

I hear ownership in your words here:

"I re-experienced the past many many times because of issues that were not resolved, and were not allowed to be resolved by SA."

You re-experienced the past many, many times...we all do...all the way back to our childhoods...especially with conflict. How did SA block you from resolution? I'm missing something important here...we resolve our stuff...we do...may not be in a healthy way...we don't live without resolution well...which is great, because then we change...part of the solution...

"I have worn myself out with this, too many variables for me to deal with." This is ownership and I appreciate knowing this...thank you.

"Somehow LA, I think you believe I will be self defeating by committing the same act of betrayal, and that you are giving me a heads up to this? I will never do this I can assure you and SA. It’s the one guarantee I can offer my partner. Pretty comforting isn’t it."

"Somehow LA, I think you believe I will be self defeating by committing the same act of betrayal, and that you are giving me a heads up to this? I will never do this I can assure you and SA. It’s the one guarantee I can offer my partner. Pretty comforting isn’t it."

Could we possibly be missing each other's definitions? Like above, with wayward...here, with betrayal?

Each time you asked SA to confirm what you already knew, you betrayed yourself...each time you chose not to dissolve the marriage based on infidelity over the last three years, with each lying refute, you betrayed yourself...your choice was always your own...self knows that...you chose not to...made your choice dependent on hers...which said self wasn't worth a hill of beans...that your own truth didn't matter.

No comfort to me, GR. My H was that way...he would not EVER choose to do that...from his code...until his mind, from years of wayward thinking...against me...made what he did okay...due, reasonable...in fact, he said I made him.

LA

I have to say that I am not the monster that he has claimed me to be. I am a good person and I count here. I was confused and not getting the love and support I needed here at home. I have always had issues with GR. Way before any of this happened. I would like to appologize to all of you for my smart remark before, just getting angry again, and wanted to have a one liner. Just to reitterate, I did have a one night stand, I did go on the internet to talk to guys, and I did kiss another guy and that would be all. These were not long drawn out affairs, but still, I was married and I have to say not happily or I think in my head that I would never have gone there. I have said my peace to GR and I am going to try and move on. Thank you for all of your advise and I will keep you posted... or maybe GR will.