Verloren,

I don't have anything new to suggest. Just stay the course, and maintain the initiative. You're doing well.

-AD

Hello all,

My apologies for not posting sooner. Have been very busy around the house lately. I did want to give just a quick update on my situation.

In reality, not much has changed since two weeks or so. Last weekend, WW and danced at one of the events that our dance club attends annually. I had fun, and it seems like she enjoyed herself, too. She looked absolutely fabulous in her costume. I noticed her talking to the leader of our dance group. In the past, she thought that the idea for the restraining order came from him (this is not true). When I gently asked about her discussion she said that "things are straightened out." A lot of the club members hadn't seen WW in quite a while. Although everyone knows about the situation between WW and myself, they were very nice to her and gave her a nice welcome, which she seemed to appreciate a lot.

Other than this, not much to report. I am finding out the true meaning of a lot of advice given on this web page. Reading the advice is one thing, truly understanding its meaning is another: I guess I am really starting to understand that Plan A is as much about myself as it is about WW, maybe even more so. This has been a true revelation and has forced me to do a lot of self-reflection.

We'll see how it goes this holiday weekend.

V

Hello Verloren,

sorry if this has already been brought up & dealt with..
Are you being realistic about STD's in this context?
Or is there simply no SF right now so that this is not an issue (it might be later on, though) ?

Brownhair,

SF is not happening right now. If/when it looks it might happen again, I will bring up the issue of STDs.

V

If you haven't already, I think it would be a good idea to get tested yourself now (for the pre-discovery period).

Hello all,

Haven't had the opportunity to post in a while. I did want to update you on my situation though.

WW still traveling weekly to Puerto Rico, even though it's getting harder and harder for her to leave the children behind. I'm still taking care of the children during the week. Affair between WW and OM still ongoing, although WW not happy with her current life either. I'm trying to do Plan A during the weekends when WW is home. Don't know how long I should maintain this before switching to Plan B. Am afraid I didn't do too well with the Plan A this weekend. Felt that I had to maintain clear bounderies re the affair, though.

WW came home from Puerto Rico last Friday. On the way home, she stopped at the mall and bought a dress that she wants to wear when she and the OM are going to attend Xxx's wedding in Puerto Rico. She paid for the dress out of our joint account.

Xxx is not just any person. Xxx is an old family friend, who suggested to WW in 1991 that she contact me again after an earlier breakup. Xxx now also lives in Puerto Rico, but he doesn't work for the same company WW and I do.

Xxx is mainly responsible for WW and me getting together. Xxx was a guest when WW and I got married. He did one of the readings during our service. Now WW is going to attend his wedding w/ my replacement [grrrr])


Guess who IS NOT invited to come to this wedding?? Got upset just seeing the dress hanging on it's hanger, off our bedroom door. Took the dress and put in WW's suitcase. Told her to take it out of my sight. If I don't have the "benefit" of seeing her in the dress, I don't want to see it at all. Also demanded that write me a check from her Father's estate account (she's the only person w/ access to this account) to cover the dress. Her check to be deposited to our joint accounts as reimbursement for the check she wrote on Friday

She told me she has no place to hang it in Puerto Rico. Told her this is not my problem. It's insulting enough for her to take the OM to Xxx's wedding, instead of me. I wouldn't have cared if it had been the wedding of a friend of the OM or another Puerto Rico friend of WW's. But Xxx's wedding, no less. What an insult...

And then WW expects to pay for the dress out of our joint accounts (even though she claims she always intended to pay for it from her Father's estate account. She says she simply took out the wrong checkbook and didn't notice it until it was too late. I don't know what to believe. She keeps doing this stupid, insensitive stuff over and over again).

Next, she wants to hang the dress off our bedroom door, for me to look at until she takes it to go to Xxx's wedding. Give me a break!!!

I don't know what the issue is. Does she do this kind of stuff on purpose? She says she doesn't do anything with the particular pupose of hurting me. Does she not care? Or is she just not aware, totally oblivious?

Or am I just too sensitive and sentimental?

All of this, of course, caused some major LBs from my end. I find it very difficult to do the Plan A with this kind of stuff going on. Should I maintain more of a distance? I think I might have to keep more of a distance simply to prevent myself from getting hurt over and over again. And where does "maintaining clear bounderies about the afair" end and me becoming too sensitive (if so) begin?

Confused,

V.

V,

If you are having a hard time not LB'ing, then it is getting time for Plan B. Can you obtain a legal separation in your state? If so consider it, with her having to move out of the home. See your lawyer to determine what your options are.

So far there are no consequences for her actions, but I think that if she continues to be this insensitive and continues the affair in the face of Plan A, then it is time for Plan B. Seek legal advice, and start the wheels in motion.

God Bless,

JL

JL, thanks for your reaction.

Yes, I am LBing, and the reason for it is that WW's acts are insensitive and insulting. She says she doesn't come home with the purpose of hurting me. It just seems to happen. It is only after I explain to her why things are insensitive and insulting that she understands. And at those times, she typically agrees w/ me that her actions are indeed hurtful. Take the whole episode w/ the dress described in my post above. Only after I explained it to her did she seem to understand that it was rude.

However, I realize that, while WW's actions are insensitive and insulting, I am probably reacting stronger than is good for either one of us. Why are my reactions so strong? Why do I overreact? Don't really know. I guess I'm still grieving, still trying to come to grips with the situation. Do I accept it? No. If I did, I would be divorced, rather than posting on this web board.

When WW comes home for the weekends, for the children's sake, we try to have as much of a family life as possible. We talk normally, act normally, go grocery shopping or whatever, have dinner together, etc. I guess WW and I are doing a reasonable job, execpt for the occasional insensitve act on her side. But looking at us from the outside, you wouldn't know that anything was amiss.

But fact is, when WW is in Puerto Rico, I miss her terribly, and when she comes home for the weekends, I'm drawn to her like a moth to a candle. I have to be careful not to "hover over her" (my words). I miss the closeness that we used to have, the fun of being around each other. I am still very much attracted to her. She makes my blood boil without realizing it, just by the way she moves. However, no SF at this time. I haven't asked for it, and she is not willing to meet this need at this point. She doesn't need it from me, either. For her, currently that need is being met somewhere else by somebody else.

JL, your suggestion to go to Plan B is appreciated. I will talk to my atty find out what can be done, and if anything, when. In the mean time, do you or anyone who is reading this have any advice on how I can start to emotionally detach from WW? I'm sure you've felt the same way I'm feeling now. How did you handle this? I don't want to totally detach from her, just enough so that I don't get hurt all over again if/when she does something insulting or insensitive. Yes, I'm reading, yes, I have started an old hobby again (model kits), yes, I'm working out, but all of this doesn't seem to be enough.

Your feedback is appreciated

V.

Dear Verloren,

I think JL is right, it might be time for plan B.
Being less exposed to your WW's foggy thinking will help you emotionally detach from your WW.
And it will make it even harder for her to continue this phantasy when she realises what she's going to lose.

For what it's worth - I don't think your WW does these things on purpose (leaving the dress hanging from your bedroom door etc), I think she's trying to act "normal".
I guess that's the only way she can shut her consciousness (geweten) out.

I think she's pretty lucky to have a H like you.
I hope she'll realise that soon.

How are your kids taking the situation?
Do they know about the A?
(I forgot how old they are)

V,

Not much time to talk today. I think your feelings and reactions are normal for a man that loves a woman that is hurting him. I also agree with BrownHair that she probably doesn't realize many things because she is in the "fog". I mean she thinks it is perfectly alright to have an affair right in your face, and still come home and live with you during the weekends. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? (He asks knowing full well you do.)

I really think that she probably needs to move out and live elsewhere when she comes home. I don't mean this instant but very soon, OR you will lose all love for her and the marriage will be over.

See the lawyer first and foremost. Then start making some plans. I would strongly encourage you to seek some guidance and coaching from one of the Harley's. They are the pro's and while it costs money, it is not nearly what a divorce costs.

God Bless,

JL

V.

You asked how I handled things in your situation. I have not been in your situation since I was married 30 something years ago. You see I came here for other reasons many years ago. I wanted you to know this, because I did not want to mislead you in anyway.

What you hear from me is based on years of reading here. Some personal experience before I was actually married, and the experiences of many friends and acquaintances over a lot of years. But, not what you are going through.

Just want to make sure you understood that.

God Bless,

JL

Browhair, JL, thanks for your reactions.

This past weekend was much better than most other weekends since D-Day. I kept more of a distance and managed not to "hover" over her (my words). Interactions between WW and myself were light and pleasant, and she did not anthing that I found insulting or hurtful.

Did talk R a little bit at the end of Sunday, but kept it light. Did explain to WW that I still have somewhat of a hard time figuring out exactly how to behave w/ her. I don't want to come across as too clingy, so I give her time and space to be by herelf and with the chldren. OTOH, I don't want to come across as not being interested at all, as withdrawn.

It's hard to figure out exactly what to do. I think I did a good job this weekend, though

If I can have a couple more weekends like last week, I would like to keep the Plan A going for awhile, maybe until Christmas or so. Remember, WW is only at home 2 days a week. It's not like she's here all the time. So I figure, if things go OK, I might continue with Plan A a little longer than I might otherwise do, to make up for "lost time," so to speak. Does this make any sense? What do people think?

As far as our DDs are concerned, they both know what's going on. DD9 is actually in counseling, and she seems to be doing OK now (for a while, she wasn't) DD4, while not in counseling, also seems to know what's going on. A couple of weeks ago, when I was giving her a bath, I told her: I love DD4, I love DD9 and I love Mommy." Reply from DD4: "But Mommy doesn't love you anymore." Out of the mouth of babes....

I think I will make another appointment w/ Dr. Harley in a couple of weeks.

As far as a full plan B is concerned, this may be hard because of custody concerns. Will have to get some more detailed information about this.

Any feedback appreciated.

V

Hello Verloren,

I'm glad to hear your weekend wasn't too hard on you this time.
This A-stuff is hard, and you'll need all your strength and wit.

I would ask Dr Harley about the time frame for plan A/B in your case.

The way I see it, I think you should be careful not to stretch your love for your wife too thin - a very long plan A could wear you out and make you indifferent, simply because it's natural to protect yourself from pain.

Also I wouldn't let WW get the impression that you are OK with the A-situation.
Again - ask Dr Harley about this.
I have never had to do a plan A to stop the A, so I have no pratical experience with no R-talk and yet getting the message across that you are NOT OK with the A.

Hello everyone. Just thought I would give everyone an update on my situation. WW was home from Puerto Rico from Tuesday night (Sep 26) through yesterday (Oct 1) Five whole days together. More than we’ve had in months.

I guess it went OK. No love busting or disrespectful judgments from my side, even though it was hard to keep my mouth shut at times

Got hold of WWs journal over the weekend. Yes, I read it and photocopied it. If she’s dumb enough to leave her open briefcase containing her journal on the couch for 5 days, she doesn’t deserve any better.
Of course, she doesn’t know that I have her notes, and I’m not going to tell her.

The journal was quite revealing, though. Remember how she was going to attend a wedding on Sat Sep 23? Why would she not fly back on Sep 24? The reason is that OM’s birthday (47) was on Sept 26, and she wanted to be with him. What’s more, on his birhday, OM had to fly to the US mainlaind to attend a meeting at WWs and mine “home site” on Wed, Sep 27 and Thu, Sep 28. As part of WW’s birthday gift to OM, they flew from San Juan into XXX together, and she used our (meaning WW’s and mine) airmiles to upgrade OM’s ticket from coach to business class. They sat next to each other. (Oh how sweet) I am not sure, but it might be interesting to find out what a lawyer would think about WW giving our assets to OM without my permission.

It also explains why it took her three and a half hours to drive home from XXX airport instead of the usual two and a half hours: she had to drop him off at his hotel....

The thought of OM having ridden in our van just makes me sick. Not much I can do about it, though. Don't know if they met at our home site on Wed, Sep 27 and Thu, Sep 28. Probably not, since I'm in the same building as WW is, and the risk of meeting would have been too great. I know many people on site: I think I would have gotten word if they had met.

Also found out that WW is currently very much in love with the OM. She comments on how well they complement each other, in many areas: education, careers, culture etc. Its' as if they are made for each other. Very deep in the fog.

However, she does miss the girls very much and is seriously starting to doubt whether staying in Puerto Rico through a weekend is worth the sadness that comes from missing the girls. However, right now she seems to be looking for a way for her to be together with the OM and have DDs: "When all is finished between V and myself, I hope to find a way where I can be w/ OM and have the girls. I know he loves them very much, even though he has not met them yet."

Even though I kind of knew all of this, actually having it confirmed is still quite a shock. I'm not sure what to do, just keep doing, what I'm doing, I guess: no love busting, no fighting, and meeting ENs where I can. Any comments or suggestions?

Also during this week, I once again found out that WW has no financial self discipline. Remember that I asked her to pay me back from her Father’s Estate account for the dress that she bought to go to the wedding in Puerto Rico? Well, it bounced…And not only did she bounce a check to me, she also bounced a check to a shoe store. She can’t even take the time to update her records and balance her checkbook.

Now she has asked me to bail her out by paying the shoe store but also by giving her money to bring her own account back into the black. This gave me the opportunity to plant a little seed about OM’s cheapness: “Have you considered asking OM for money?”

Haven’t decided yet what I’m going to do. On the one hand I don’t want to shield her from the consequences of her adultery, but on the other hand I don’t want her (or my) credit rating to go down the drain. I’ll probably bail her out, then get a move on with separating our finances. Any comments?


Didn’t have any R talk other than on Sunday, Oct 1. On the drive up to one of the performances for our dance group, we talked R a little bit. Told her that I'm done agonizing over what's she doing because I have no control over her whatsoever. Told her the only thing I can control is myself, and I'm trying to become a better person through all of this. Whatever the outcome of all of this, I'm sure I will be OK. I am just focusing on myself and the girls right now.

Because WW mentions often how much support she is getting from all of her friends in Puerto Rico, I asked how often she actually gets to go out. She explains that she doesn't go out that often because she has long work ours. I then pointed out that the only reason she can go out during the week is because she doesn't have our children around. I don't get to go out much either. I told her that I would be happy to go out with her over the weekends that she's here, but right now she has withdrawn from me and simply won’t accept my invitations. "But they come with strings attached" she said. My answer: "Right now I don't have any expectations. I'm just trying to make it through a weekend without getting hurt and without fighting w/ you. If you accept my invitations, great, if not next time better." All of this was said in normal conversation w/o either of us getting upset.

Danced a couple of times w/ WW during our dance performances. Also danced with her a couple of times just because. She said "yes" every time I asked her, and she seemed to enjoy. DD10 did get to see Mommy and Daddy dance, and she seemed very happy. WW commented how the two of us dancing would give DD10 the impression that everything was OK between us. I told WW: “But that’s exactly what DD10 wants; for everything to be OK between us.”

When we were at the dance job, WW flirted with the guys from the band. Don't know if this was her flirty self or if she did it to get at me. I didn't get upset with it, though.

On the way back from the dance job, we talked a little bit of R again. Told her that she should not expect me to make it easy on her if she files for divorce: my objective is to reconcile, not to divorce. I took a line that I've seen on the MB website: Talk to me if you want to talk reconciliation; talk to my lawyer if you want to talk divorce.

Again took ownership of my behavior that contributed to her getting into her affair. I must have phrased it pretty well because she seemed impressed.

Again all of this was said in a normal conversation. No fights. I feel pretty proud about that.

Gave WW the love busters questionnaire that I had filled out before, pretending to be her. Asked her to double-check it to make sure I got it right. She said she would do so.

Gave WW a back rub / back scratch before we went to sleep. She seemed to enjoy it. The 5 days together ended on a good note, I think.

So, here it is… How am I doing? Any advise on how to break through the fog?… Any feedback appreciated.

V

Bump

Brownhair, JustLearning, others,

If at all possible, would you be able to provide some advice on how to break through WW's fog?

Any advice appreciated.

V

Very good! Sorry you had to read the stuff you did, and then pull off Plan A'ing!! Hard stuff!!

I'm sorry to say that your WW may need a major crisis or the attempt at OM to meet 100% of her EN's. And remember, he is at a disadvantage due to the crappy foundation that their R is based on. My FWW and her OM's fragile foundation and his LB'ing like crazy, made my FWW turn tail quickly, and reinvest in our (now wonderful) marriage.

Your story is so familar to me...just 1 short year ago!! Hang in there!!!
MWIL

Hello Verloren,

I can read in your last posts that you are beginning to get more and more frustrated - am I right?
And if you are - it's no wonder.
You have been putting up with A LOT.

There is a time limit to plan A..
3 months for a WW...
It's been 4 months now...
Given the fact that you don't see your WW all the time, it could be a bit longer than 3 months in your case.
Depends on how your "heart" will hold out.

I would take serious steps planning plan B (not implementing yet), securing your finances, talking to your lawyer etc., in order words, be totally prepared to go to plan B emotionally and practically if it should come to that.

I don't know what Dr Harley or Just Learning think about this, but in my opinion your WW is pretty much getting used to the situation and might keep it up for the whole year.

Your situation and your WW's is quite unique.
She can "part-time" you both, getting the advantages of fun with the girls on the weekend, feeling semi-responsible.
And she's free to see OM all she wants and "play house" with him during the week !

Most WW's have a lot more trouble seeing their OM because they are living at home with their BH, who will be on his guard, even if he's in plan A - he will NOT plan A the affair !!

Your WW might be able to continue this fog stuff all year..
Can you ?

Prepare for plan B;
don't talk about it;
be fully prepared.
It might be the jolt your WW need to come out of the fog.

Just my 2 cents, dear Verloren.
And I do think you need a cyber hug by now !
(((((((Verloren))))))

Hi Verloren,

Just a thought, I think you should have flowers delivered to her place of residence in Puerto Rico. On the tag you should say: "WE NEED YOU" signed: LOVE,YOUR FAMILY.

She clearly does not deserve the flowers however, it may shed some guilt upon what she is doing. It may also make the OM realize there is a family at home that loves, needs and misses her. She will feel "ROTTEN" every time she looks at the flowers.

I dont think it will hurt to try it.

Tu2

MWIL, Brownhair, Torn_up2

I appreciate your feedback. I will be posting my "log" from this past weekend shortly. I will respond to your input at that time.

Thanks,

V

Hello all.

My apologies for the delay in posting all of this. It is not easy to find time to write and post with a full-time job and 2 girls to take care of at home. Below are my notes for the last two weekends that WW was home.

When she came home from Puerto Rico on Oct 6 WW was wearing a new ring on her left hand, where her wedding band used to be. I asked her where it came from. She said she bought it. She says the sparklers are zirconium.

I'm not sure if I believe her, both about her buying it (vs receiving it as a gift) and about the sparklers being zirconium. I've never known her to wear anything else but the real “rocks”. Didn't say any more about it. The next day, DD10 noticed Mommy was wearing a new ring. She asked her where she got it. Mommy gave DD10 the same answer as she gave me...

The weekend of Oct 7/8 was our second weekend w/ our dance group at xxx,. On Sat, WW was very flirtatious with the band members. She was all over them. Don't know if she did this to get at me. It's hard to say at this point. May not have been any “worse” than in years past. I just notice it more. Didn't say anything about it, though.. However, she did dance w/ me every time I asked her, and seemed to be enjoying herself.

She and I did talk with the horn player from the band. He started talking about how important family and friends are, and how you should do everything possible to keep your family together.

This conversation made WW visibly uncomfortable. She said out to me: "But we're just not like that anymore." I responded with: "I'm just translating what the guy is saying. I'm not making up any of his words."

Stayed overnight at a local motel. On the way to the motel we drove past the campground where WW and I first met in 1982. She pointed it out to the girls, then added to me: "But we are sooo far from where we were then." I didn't respond to this.

More dancing with our dance group on Sun, Oct 8. In general, we had a good time.

Called DD10's counselor during the week of Oct 9 to make an appointment for her. Found out that WW had called her in Sep to ask her if it was OK for the girls to meet OM when he was at our home site (see post above). The counselor had told her no. DD10 is not ready for it. Judy had some pretty scathing things to say about WW: "She doesn't get it" and is "oblivious to DD10's emotional needs." "Thinks only of her own needs and wants. Totally selfish." Currently, this seems to be par for the course.

I'll stick this one in the record, for me to use if the WW files for divorce. I'm sure a statement like this will carry some weight if custody has to be decided.

This past weekend, (Oct 14/15) WW insisted on moving the spare bed from the basement into the master bedroom. Net result is two beds in the mater bedroom. I sleep in what used to be our marital bed, WW sleeps in the spare bed.

Talked a little bit of R on Sun evening. Went over the love busters questionnaire that I had filled out, pretending to be her, and that she had double-checked. She really seemed to resist having to go over this. To me it looked as if she wanted to pick a fight. I managed to avoid it. However, the LB questionnaire itself may have been a LB. Whatever the case, I found that I had gotten the LB questionnaire approx 90% correct.

We are very much apart on major issues, though. Admitted that I've made some judgment errors when it comes to the girls, but that no harm was done. I countered with WW's judgment errors: Who is doing more damage? She or me? I told her that she is hurting the children and our family every single time she goes to Puerto Rico. Case in point: When WW left for Puerto Rico on Mon morning DD4 cried for Mommy not to go to Puerto Rico and to “please stay with us.”

The last 3 weeks have given me a lot to think about. First of all, it is obvious that WW is still very much in love w/ OM. Currently, she plans to be with him in the future and is looking for a way to have the children too. Don't know if my plan A is having any effect. If it is, WW is not showing it.

Second, I'm starting to realize that the dancing / dance group is as much a part of WW as it is a part of me. Right now, it does no longer seem as if she's planning to give it up. I guess this is a good thing. She has been very much interested in attending our club events this season, and she has also expressed interest in visiting event organized by other dance clubs in November. I guess this is a good thing, and something that I can work with. This ethnic dancing and culture is one thing that we currently still have in common, and I would like to work with that fact to pull her in the right direction w/o forcing her. OM can never be a part of this (not the right heritage and background), and it is something that he cannot use to pry WW and myself apart. On the contrary, it is something I can use to bring WW and myself closer together.

This plan A stuff is very, very difficult. I need to keep more distance from WW, but it is very hard for me to do so. Every time I see her, I am drawn to her... I'm not ready for plan B just yet. Remember, WW only sees me during the weekends, and I haven't been doing the plan A correctly long enough for it to make a lasting impression. However, plan B is on the horizon...

All feedback and advice appreciated.

V