Per advice received from members of this board, cross-posted from Infidelity - Just found out.

Mods: If cross-posting is not allowed, please accept my apologies and delete
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I have been reading a lot on this site in the last couple of days. Have gained many new insights but still have a lot of questions. Maybe someone here can help me make sense of this all or just provide comments: Warning: This will be a long message. I want to lay everything out there, and do it only once. My apologies in advance.

My situation:

Me, Male, 42, BA degree, married for 15 years, 2 daughters, (9 and 4), WS 40, PhD, Dday Jun 8, 2006, but suspected A since late summer of 2005. WS has admitted that that’s when the A started.

We both work for a pharmaceutical company (same site), I am a Computer Engineer, she works for the Regulatory Affairs Dept (used to be in product (drug) development). In both positions she has had a lot of responsibilities and has had to do a lot of traveling to other company sites.

My WS loves her career, and she is a very ambitious person who knows exactly where she wants to be. As long as I’ve known her, (almost 24 years) she has been like this. It was one of the things that first attracted me to her, along with here bubbly, outgoing character. I am not nearly as ambitious nor outgoing as she is, but as they say, opposites attract.

I have to add here that the WS had weight loss surgery in 2004, and she has lost 91 lbs since that time. I’ve always found her attractive, but now with the weight loss she has become stunningly beautiful. And I’m not the only man who thinks so. She receives lots of attention from other men, and she loves it. The surgery didn’t necessarily change her personality; rather it reinforced it. She has become even more bubbly and outgoing than she was. And I guess for her it also reinforced my much more introverted personality to her. I’m convinced she no longer likes what she sees.

Our relationship changed last summer when she withdrew from me. First suspicions of something being seriously wrong occurred when she would close her laptop computer screen when I walked past. To me this was an obvious indication that she was hiding something from me. When I asked her about this, her response was: “Am I not allowed to have any friends? You don’t have to know everything I e-mail.” My response was: “Sure you can have friends, and no, I don’t have to know everything you e-mail, but why are you closing your screen?” Didn’t get an answer.

As 2005 progressed and 2006 started, she withdrew more and more from me. She made more trips, to Ireland and Puerto Rico, also switched positions (from drug development to Regulatory Affairs.) During all of these trips I did what I had to do and took care of our 2 girls. I’m their father after all, and it’s what I’m supposed to do. However, a thank you from the wife would have been nice, but during all of the years she has been traveling she has very rarely said those words. Sometimes I feel like a glorified babysitter, and I have told my WS so.

Over the years, we have had some fierce discussions and fights about all of this traveling. I guess I felt that she was neglecting my daughters and myself and was focusing on her career only rather than her family. And I’ll admit, I used some pretty harsh words and made some pretty bad accusations, even calling her a bad mother at one point. It was incredibly stupid of me venting the way I did, rather than trying a more constructive way to convey my feelings. I would do anything to take back those words. But they were uttered, and that was it. I can’t ever take them back and “I’m sorry” just doesn’t cut it. These words can’t be undone.

Anyway, also during the end of 2005 and the beginning of 2006, our cell phone bill skyrocketed. At least one call every day to Puerto Rico, with many days more than one call made. When I ask her about this she explains that these calls are to one of her co-workers in Puerto Rico and that they work on the same projects together. They are also very good friends. Another alarm bell goes off. I sit down with her and ask her “If there’s something going wrong between us, you will tell me, right?” Answ: “Yes.” I ask her also “If this something wrong between us, will you allow me to try and fix things?” Answ: “Yes”

In April of 2006, we make a trip to my home country with the entire family. One day, while the WS is taking her shower, her cell phone beeps: an incoming text message. Not really suspecting anything nor really wanting to snoop, I look at it: It’s from her co-worker in Puerto Rico: Te amo mucho….Now I panic. I looked at the record of her outgoing messages: “I miss you and want to be with you much” and similar messages. What is going on here?

When we get home to the US I try to approach the WS about what I’ve found out. “He is a very special friend,” the answer was. In the beginning of May 2006, I suggest MC. Her first reaction: “I’m incredibly busy and it doesn’t really fit into my schedule, but I’ll do it” Hardly a good beginning. We have our first meeting in the middle of May. I can’t really say much about it. My WS claims we’ve grown apart, hasn’t loved my in a long time, and uses all the phrases typically offered by a cheating partner. Spooky indeed.

I’m guessing the A started in August 2005. Then the WS didn’t make another trip to Puerto Rico until December 2005. Up until end of April 2006, there have been no further trips to Puerto Rico either. So the way I look at this is as follows: She is having an A, but it’s mainly over the phone. Not that it makes much of a difference, but as long as there are no other trips to Puerto Rico, I figure I might have a chance and some time to try to turn things around.

Because that’s what I want to do, turn things around. My WS is the only woman I’ve ever really loved in my life, and I can’t stand the thought of losing her, not even after finding out she’s having an A. I want to fix things and find a way to continue our marriage.

At the end of May, disaster strikes. WS has to go to Puerto Rico on 2 hours notice to try and salvage a project in which the company has invested quite a lot of money. Remember, at this time she still hasn’t admitted to an A. I suspect she’s having one, but she hasn’t admitted it yet. Before she leaves, I ask her to please think about us and all the good times we have between us. I also ask her to not put herself into a position where she’s going to do something she might regret later. Because of this emergency trip, WS misses the second meeting with the MC. I go by myself. He asks if I think she’s having an affair. I tell him yes and give him the information I have.

WS comes home for the Memorial Day. Nine-year-old daughter senses that something is wrong between Mommy and Daddy and starts asking questions. WS and I sit down with her and explain that “Yes, things are not OK but Mommy and Daddy are trying to work things out. No matter what, remember that we both love you very much. We will always love you, and none of this is your fault.

WS has to go back to Puerto Rico after Memorial Day. Again I ask her to please think about us and all the good times we have between us and to not put herself into a position where she’s going to do something she might regret later. WS returns home on Jun 2. After these two trips, I don’t really know how to approach her. We still share the same bed although we haven’t been intimate in a while. I’ve thought about moving downstairs but am very reluctant to do so because I see it as on of those things that, once done, can’t be undone. We talk around the issue, trying to be nice to each other.

Then on June 8 my world as I know it is crushed. First blow (even though I had suspected it for a long time): WS admits to being unfaithful with Puerto Rico co-worker since summer of 2005. Second blow: WS says she wants a D because “we grown so much apart and I simply don’t love you anymore.” Third blow: WS announces that company management is thinking about asking her to go to Puerto Rico for a period of one YEAR to get the derailed project back on the rails again. If asked, she will accept and she wants to take the children with her. The company will pay for housing, utilities, schools, etc. Company will also pay for monthly trips back to the mainland. WS says she would not move in with OM but get her own apartment where she would live with the children. My name isn’t mentioned anywhere in this scenario.

The most important reason she wants to accept this assignment is that, if successful, it will shoot her straight to the top of the company. It’s really a great career opportunity. I have to agree with WS. This is a great career opportunity. Also, I have no doubt that her career is the most important reason for her to accept the assignment. I’ve known my wife way longer than the OM, and I know how ambitious she is. If the OM really thinks the only reason she coming is to be with him, he is in for a big surprise.

The second reason the WS gives is that this would also be a great opportunity for the children to experience a different culture. While this may be true in and by itself, I feel that the WS is giving me this reason only to make herself feel better about what she’s doing. After all, she is in the fog. The third reason is that this would give her an opportunity to see where the relationship with the OM is going.. Sure…..

My reaction shocked her. I said I didn’t want a D, told her that I still loved her and offered to come with her. She thinks I’ve never really supported her career, and never thought that I would move to be with her. In the past when discussions about moving have come up, I always said that I would prefer to stay where I am. Maybe I should have added that I would move if I had to. I’m not sure I ever did that.

Friday June 9, I was just in shock. Don’t remember much, but we did tell the nine-year old what was up, including the part that Mommy cheated on Daddy. WS and I sit down with her again and explain again that “No matter what, remember that we both love you very much. We will always love you, and none of this is your fault.”

At night we talked some more. I expressed my anger and asked why she had never said anything to me or given me the chance to try to fix things, like she promised. I also asked her what gave her the right to take my children away from me. After all, I love them just as much as she does. I need to be with them just as much as she does. She said she doesn’t look at it as taking the children away from my but rather as offering them an opportunity to experience a different culture. Sure….

Saturday, June 10 she wakes up next to me (we’re still sleeping in the same bed, as explained above), gives me a hug and says: “Boy, I never thought I would find myself in this situation. It will be a long time before I will file for D. I am in no rush.” So what the heck does that mean?

I call my parents oversees and tell them what’s going on. In the afternoon, we go to a party of the folk dance group that the WS and I belong to. I tell the dance leader, my SIL and future BIL (also members of the dance group) what’s going on. Receive the advice from both the dance leader and future BIL I should not let my WS take the children.

Sunday, June 11, we tell my MIL, herself divorced. She cries, just like we do. WS and I talk some more about what her statement on Saturday morning meant. “Maybe I’m not as sure as I seem” and “Maybe it’s my way of acknowledging that I never gave you the opportunity to try to fix anything.”

Monday June 12, I tell my WS that my offer to come with her still stands. She says that she had never thought of me in Puerto Rico and can’t really picture it. At the same time she says that no official offer has been made and all the options are still open.

I have to step back, and stop with these conversations with her. All I’m doing is putting pressure on her and getting myself upset. Also, I don’t want to be smothering her, but at the same time I need to vent all of this to get some of my sanity back.

So here I am. I know that my offer to go with my WS to Puerto Rico while she has an ongoing affair with a co-worker from there goes against absolutely everything stated on this website. My reasons for this are simple, though. First of all, I need to be there for my daughters. They didn’t do anything to deserve any of this. Next, I think things can only get better from here, not worse. I don’t think I have anything to lose. I do love my wife and want to be her husband. I know that, even if things do work out, things would never be the same between us again as they were before and that a long period of counseling is required for both of us

There’s no false pride here. I’m doing this for my peace of mind. If things do not work out, I want to be able to tell myself and my daughters that I did absolutely everything humanly possible to save my marriage.

Thoughts, advice, input are appreciated.

I suggest you get an appt. with one of the MB counselors right away.

Moving to PR with her is better than letting her go alone.

Absolutely under no circumstances do you let her take the children without you. Some "cultural" enhancement - witnessing adultery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You may need to consult with an attorney to see what you need to do to prevent this.

Also - does the PR "friend" work for the same company? Sounds like it from your description.

I'll bet this company has a policy about workplace affairs?

Can you find out some info about OM? - his position in the company?

One scenario could be that one of them would be the superior of the other. Can you say "sexual harrassment"?

WAT

Verloren,

Since you have a BA and, I presume, have been rational in your work, I am going to ask you to also be rational here in dealing with your WW. Further, you are being too naïve and too trusting of your WW’s intent and plans. It is ok to feel this way since you are not used to being in this situation, but you are going to have to learn and grow quickly in the next few days and weeks.

Onto details.

1. See if you can make an appointment with the Harleys, as WAT suggested.

2. Believe nothing your WW says and only half of what you see. This is very important, so let me say it again,

Believe nothing your WW says and only half of what you see.

Your WW is a liar right now, and should be regarded as such.

3. Forget about your wife’s ambitions. She will have to quit her job if your M is to survive. No contact is a requirement for recovery. And since your WW and OM purportedly work together, one or both will have to leave the job if your M is to have a chance. There are no shortcuts to this. Experiences have shown that without NC, there will not be recovery.

Keep in mind however that OM may not really be working with your WW’s company. You don’t know since you only have WW’s words, and she is just not credible right now. You will have to investigate this on your own.

In any event, one of the most important things you need to do right now is to wrap your mind around the concept “NC”.

4. Under no circumstances do you let your children go to Puerto Rico. Do not believe the promises that your WW makes to you in this regard. They are all lies and are designed to appease you in making it easier for WW to replace you with OM as the male figure head of the family. If you don’t mind that, than by all means let WW go with your children to Puerto Rico, under whatever pretext you accept.

It also makes no sense for you to go to Puerto Rico. Your WW has shown little concern for the M and you. Going to Puerto Rico will only help her pursue her A, at your expense. You will in fact enable the A if you go down there. For all you know, there may not be a crisis at her company in Puerto Rico; it could all be a ruse to be with OM. Do not underestimate what a WS will do to continue their A. And even if WW is being truthful on this score, going there will not help your M in anyway.
Further, going to Puerto Rico will definitely hurt your custody case once WW can demonstrate that the children have established residency down there. You go there at your legal peril.

And the claim that WW will get her own place is hogwash. Again, this is meant to appease you into agreeing with the non-agreeable. At most, WW and OM will have their own residences while OM sleeps over every night at your WW’s place, while your children sleep in nearby rooms.

Please open your eyes to WW’s plans here. Living in denial and being gullible will not change the facts. More on this in (6). I know you may not know much about how infidelity works, so I suggest you read many of these stories of this site and learn about the lies and the moves that WS make to get their ways. You’d be surprised what they do.

5. Get a lawyer ASAP. Learn what your options are. I know you want to save your M, but you need to start doing what it takes to protect your CHILDREN and yourself.

6. I notice that you prefer to deny the facts when they don’t correlate with what you want to believe, but to survive this you are going to need to face reality for what it is, and not merely what you want it to be. Facing reality, though painful at times, will serve you better than living in denial.

In this same vein, as aforesaid, your WW is liar right now and you cannot rely on her words or promises to you. It is irrational and foolish to trust an untrustworthy person. And your WW has surely proven that she is an untrustworthy person, at least as of August of last year. The sooner you accept this fact, the sooner and the better you will be able to deal with your sitch.

7. Learn about Plan A and start to implement it.

8. Very important: EXPOSE. You are going to have to continue to expose this nonsense to close friends and family. And you are going to have to expose your WW’s adultery to her work. Yes, this may be detrimental to WW’s career, but you are going to have to decide soon anyway what is more important to you, your WW’s career or your M.

And, yes, this is going to be an either/or decision. You will not being able to have both, given WW’s adultery.

9. MAN UP. You are going to need to grow a Pair. You are going to need it, trust me.

That is all for now.

WAT, UVA, Thanks for your replies. I've had some 'net problems, so please accept my apologies for the delay.

Here's what happened since I last posted: WAT and UVA, it should answer your questions

1) Today I spoke w/ XXX from HR. He knows WW very well. They have been in meetings together. When she wants to hire someone, he is the HR person she works with. Mentioned to him that there is inappropriate behavior going on between WW and OM. He said he really couldn't discuss because of confidentiality concerns; basically, not allowed to discuss other company personnel (WW/OM) with me. He too, referred me to YYY, another person in HR. XXX basically blew me off.

Spoke w/ YYY. The only policy that company has regarding relationships in the workplace is that if a manager gets into a relationship with a subordinate, it needs to be reported to management. Other than that, there is nothing.

Well, WW is not OM’s manager. They don't even work in the same department. They just work together a lot. YYY explained that if I feel that the relationship between WW and OM is resulting or could possibly result in an ethics violation (ie, WW pressuring OM to enter incorrect results in a report or something like that), I can call the company compliance hotline.

I don't think that will happen. They're both too smart to do that...

When I asked YYY about her confidentiality requirements, she told me she that she and XXX are not allowed to confirm or deny to WW that I was even in their office.

2) Had my 3rd meeting w/ my MC today. I guess it is a personal counselor at this time. Anyway, UVA, he pretty much said what you said, including the fact that I should "grow a pair" as you so elequently phrased it. It's funny how he used phrases I've seen all over this board "She is a cake-eater". It gives me some confidence that I've come to the right board to vent and to ask for advice. Am currently reading and thinking about exposure, PLAN A and B etc. Will order Dr. Harley's books.

3) Do have appointment with attorney tomorrow to set up restraining order prohibiting my WW from taking the children out of the country without my permission.

You guys / galls have been great so far. Keep them coming...

V

Verloren,

Any chance the OM is married?

Exposing to the spouse of the OP is very effective in stopping the A.

kirk

I am glad to see that you have decided not to let WW take the children to Puerto Rico. This is a very good move on your part. I am also happy that you are seeing an attorney to explore your legal options and learn about your rights. That is a good step.

You need to expose to close friends and WW’s family today. Your primary goal is to bust up the A, and exposure goes a long way in contributing to that.

I would also follow up at WW’s work by going over the HR’s people heads and write several letters to the top officials of the company. They may not stop the A, but I guarantee that their knowledge of the A will put a big damp on it. From now on, OM and WW will always have to be on the lookout, as their superiors and peers would be watching them. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by pursuing this, so if I were you I would continue creating heat for the A at WW’s work place.

You probably should get a PI in Puerto Rico and find out the real status of OM. As you can’t rely on your WW’s claims of what is the case, you need to do your own investigation.

Further, continue to monitor WW’s e-mails and phone calls to and fro OM.

Good job on exposure at work. That’s a good start.

Met with attorney today. Was a big day. I never thought I would find myself in this situation, and even though the meeting was good, I am actually feel very, very sad tonight.

To summarize: As soon as I find out that the company is officially going to offer for WW to go to Puerto Rico for a year, a petition will be filed for a stay that would prohibit WW from taking the kids out of the county (yes, that is COUNTY) w/o my permission.

Counsel asked about what the current arrangements are when WW goes on business trips. Explained that I take care of both children; pick them up from day care / after school care, feed them, bathe them, check their homework, read them stories, put them to bed etc. Counsel asked about frequency of the trips and if WW is a good mother when she is with the children (She is). Counsel thought I had a pretty good case based on what I do for the children and the frequency of WW's trips, although there are never any guarantees.
Counsel recommended I retrieve the childen's passports and keep them in a safe place. (Done).

Asked about recording devices etc. Not a good idea and not needed at this time since I already have evidence of adultery and WW has admitted such.

Asked about exposure at work. Counsel recommended against it, as company management may very well decide it's not worth dealing with either WW or myself and fire both of us. Don't want either one of us to lose our livelyhoods.

Asked about keyloggers and such. I am on very shaky legal ground here. Since WW does all of her e-mailing etc. from a company-owned laptop, I would be violating all kinds of non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements that I'm bound by as an employee of the company. Again, counsel said the information isn't really needed at this time anyway since I already have evidence of adultery and WW has admitted such.

Asked about the legality of just monitoring traffic as it passes thru my router, w/o installing any keyloggers on WW's machine. Counsel didn't know but said she would try to find out. (Note, it's very easy for me to disable internet access for WW's computer completely. I don't think it would be illegal, since it doesn’t involve manipulating anything on her computer. I also think it wouldn't make much of a difference since WW is smart enough to know how to connect to an unsecured wireless network (my neigbor's) instead.)

We left it as follows: No immediate action will be taken. At the moment I find out the offer for WW to go to Puerto Rico for a year has actually been made, I will contact counsel, who will file the stay within 24 hrs. I also checked with the county court. No record exists, so WW hasn't filed for divorce yet.

It seems that I'm in a holding pattern right now. I'm not doing anything right now, but as soon as I find out that an offer to go to Puerto Rico has been made, I intend to hit WW with a 1-2 punch: Stay + exposure to friends and family at the same time. We'll see what happens. Wish me luck.


Krusht, thanks for your response. AFAIK, OM is not married, and I really think that the WW is speaking the truth here. Will try to verify, though.

V

Verloren,
MDC had mentioned to me how similar our situations are. Wow. They do have some striking similarities. Unfortunately the OM in your situation is not married. That is what really ended up breaking my case wide open. Sounds like you are getting plenty of good advice on your thread though. Feel free to look over my shoulder if it helps.

One thing I wanted to comment on was your "MC turned therapist". That sounds awesome that s/he uses the phrases like "cake-eater" etc. Sounds like you really found a good one. My MC was a big softy. A real dud in the sense that although *I* was naïve back then, the MC should have still picked up on my WW's infidelity. But then again maybe WW is just that sharp with her deception.

But try to stay positive. Sounds like you have some other good strategies cooking.
--d2m3b.

Glad to see that you went to see a lawyer. I am not clear about a couple of things.

What is the evidence of the A that you have that you can use in court?

When you say that your WW admitted to the A, do you mean that you have it in writing that she did, or are you referring to her spoken words to you? If you mean the latter, your lawyer’s worth is suspect since WW will surely change her tune once legal proceedings start. I hope you are not merely relying on what WW told you as the admission that will be used in court.

Start to document your activities with DD ASAP. Starting tomorrow, document everything so that your custody case against WW is not reduced to merely a he-said-she-said case. I do not have much faith in your lawyer as she fails to point out these things to you.

Also read the link below, there are some very good information in it you may want to pursue.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Lastly, it makes no sense for you to wait to expose to friends and family members. That is, if you really want to save your M. Your M has no chance if the A is extant. And exposure tends to be ruinous to affairs. Don’t you want this A to end? Like I said earlier, you need to MAN UP. Yes, your WW will be mad as h*ll when you expose. But while your M will survive your WW’s temporary anger, it will not survive her A. And exposure is one of the most powerful tools to end an A.

Dad2my3boys and UVA, I have read your responses, but I haven't had the opportunty to reply. Am at work right now, but will properly reply from home tonight.

Stay tuned..

V

UVA:

Re your concern about being able to prove adultery: When I met with counsel on Friday I asked about recording devices. She explained that according to state law, I can record a conversation when at least one of the participants has consented. This means I can record conversations between myself and WW. This is admissible in court.

A recording of a conversation of WW by herself in the car, on the phone with OM, (w/o me being in the car) is not admissible in court. Same thing for a recording of a conversation between WW and either one of the children. Counsel also explained that, in reality, courts don’t really care about the reasons for the divorce. It can be adultery, mental cruelty, irreconcilable differences, whatever. They don’t care. All they care about is what in the best interest for the children.

Yes, I agree with you that when the issue of adultery comes up, WW and I shouldn’t get into a he said / she said situation. However, I’m not so sure it’s as important as you think. I may be naïve here…

However, just to cover myself, I did buy a digital voice recorder over the weekend, and yesterday, during the drive home, I did record a discussion about Puerto Rico between WW and myself (admissible in court under the rules explained above). I readily got WW to admit that she did indeed commit adultery. The file has been burned to a CD and is in a safe place. I just feel totally disgusted and very sad to have to do this… The other evidence that I have for the adultery is our cell phone bills, which I have saved.

Now, back to what the courts care about most: What’s in the best interest for the children. In order to prove that I’m a good dad and that, for all practical purposes, I am the primary caregiver, I’ve gone back and started documenting exactly what I do with the children. I’ve pulled up the calendar to show all dates that the WW has been away on business. (I’m the only caregiver on those days.) I’ve saved credit card statements to prove that she’s been away, as well as EZ-Pass records (Automated toll paying system used in the North-Eastern US).

I’m really not sure if there’s anything else I can do. In my previous post I explained why I can’t install keyloggers on my WW computer.

I think I’m in better shape than I was before. Forgive me for not going into “battle mode” immediately. The last 12 days have been a roller coaster. Bear with me. Any advice you can give me is appreciated.

Dad2my3boys, I will respond to you in a separate post.

V

Fair enough. You are doing well right now.

Did you have a chance to read the link I posted to you? It has some very good information.

UVA, Yes I did finally read all information in the link you posted. Good stuff indeed. Am still digesting all of it. Will go into action soon and hope I can ask for more advice.

V

I have to say- you are doing great!!! Keep it up. You are stacking all the ccards in your favor. You are a quick study indeed!

Rwlora,

Thanks for your kind words. I just wish it didn't have to be this way... However, at the moment, things are the way they are.

From a legal point of view, it looks as if I'm all set. However from a personal point of view, I'm not so sure. My IC has told me that I should mentally prepare for the worst, accept that a D is very likely and work from there. Easier said then done. I've known WW for 24 years, and she is the only woman I've ever really loved. Even now, after everthing that has happened, my heart still skips a beat when I see her...

Trying to do the 180, but I'm having a hard time with it. On the outside I try to remain calm and upbeat, but on the inside..... So many questions I want to ask: Why did this happen? Why did you bottle everything up inside you and never say anything? Why did not not give me the chance to make improve things, even though you said you would... However, I keep it inside..

It's like living in the Twilight Zone. Last evening, WW and I did yard work together, and I was trying to teach our 4 yr old DD to ride her bike. WW watched and smiled. A perfect family moment, if only....

WW wants us to go out on a date to our favorite restaurant on Saturday evening and on Sunday she wants to have family portrait pictures taken. Yet on the same hand she talks to our older DD about how they're going to Puerto Rico and live there for a year. What does it all mean? I know WW is in the fog and everything and that I shouldn't pay too much attention to what she says. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, thank you again for your kind words. Didn't mean to vent.

V

Just wanted to give everyone an update into my situation. Any suggestions, advice, etc appreciated.

I guess things have come to a head. WW came home from a 3-day trip to corporate HQ last night and announced that her year-long move to Puerto Rico has been approved. And, no, she has no plans to invite me to come along with her.

Her plans are as follows: Go to Puerto Rico for 3 days next week (by herself). One week at home (so that we can attend the wedding of my SIL, irony, oh irony).

The week of Jul 17, she wants to go to Puerto Rico with the children so they can be registered at a school she has already picked out. (BTW, I am invited to come along on this trip: “Don’t you want to see where the girls will be going to school?”) Then the idea is to come back to the mainland (with the children). During the weeks of Jul 24 and Jul 31 she wants to finalize the living arrangements. The idea is to have everything in place so that she and the children can be in Puerto Rico permanently for the week of Aug 7, which is when school starts.

So, off to my attorney I will go today, to file the restraining order against my WW. I’m not letting her take the children with her. They don’t have to watch their mother commit adultery in front of them.

Even though I knew all of this was coming and had tried to mentally prepare for it, when the moment was there, I was still in shock. And I am still very, very upset.

And the really weird thing is that, as these events unfold, we have better discussions than ever before. I guess we can’t help talking about our M in moments like these. She’s finally opening up and letting me know what her ENs are and how I’ve not been meeting them, how she felt trapped. How she met this guy in Puerto Rico who understands her so well, etc. etc. She doesn’t use the word EN, because she hasn’t read the books (currently has no desire to) or hasn’t been to this website, but it’s ENs she’s talking about nonetheless.

But it sure seems that she has already decided there’s no future for her and me. I’m still fully committed to trying to save my M. However, it seems futile right now. I’m also upset I have to file this restraining order against her. How in the world did it come to this?

Any support and encouragement appreciated.

V

You are right, get to your lawyer ASAP. Everything else is secondary for now. Protecting your children is the priority right now.

verloren,

I think the restraining order will be a bit of a wakeup call that the world does NOT revolve around her. I suppose her plan was for the children to go with her, and that you would NOT see them for the year she was gone and shacking up with OM.

I am sure most judges even those heavily biased against men would NOT consider that a good parenting plan. I hope you have had her served with this restraining order. I am sure she is livid. You have punctured her pet balloon.

Hang in there and weather the storm that surely is coming.

God Bless,

JL

Any update from Verloren?

-AD

Just an update into my situation. Filed a petition at the county court requesting sole custody of the children and a restraining order to prevent the WW from taking the children out of the county without my permission. I understand that the document is currently at the judge's desk waiting for her signature.

Note that I'm not asking for a divorce. Hence the case is going to family court rather than state supreme court.

Counsel wasn't sure if we could get the restraining order or not. Was advised that if the restraining order is not appproved, I should take the children on a "vacation". This would be fully legal. I'm the children's father, and I have the right to take my chilren on "vacation"

Just wish the judge would move along. The WW is planning to take the children to Puerto Rico next Monday, Jul 17, for a 3 day trip, and I would rather avoid having to take the children on "vacation" or having the physically stop the WW from taking them. It could get very ugly...

Thanks for all your support, everyone.

V

When all else seems muddled and crazy and uncertain, we often times know what the "right" thing to do is. We sometimes don't do it because we dread the fallout from doing it but nonetheless doing the right thing will always "be the right thing".

The right thing for you right now is to protect your children and yourself from a WW. This is not the woman you married, the unselfish, giving, loving, kind, compassionate, loyal, dedicated spouse, mother, friend, daughter, etc. This is an alien being bent on self destruction and bent on taking you and your children with her. You cannot allow that to happen. You are the protector and your children will forever remember how you handle yourself at this time and place. You know what you need to do and you started the ball rolling. Don't stop until you get the ball where it needs to be. The relationship with the alien is something only they can do something about. They have to become a non alien again for any relationship talk to begin. She obviously is very much an alien (entitled, selfish beyond belief, looney, addicted, teenager like, morally corrupt/bankrupt, loose, bitter, resentful, re-writing history to cover her guilt and allow her to move on, etc) and will not be accessible until such time as she is no longer an alien.

Focus, Focus, Focus... for now on your well being and the children's protection from her death spiral.

Hope and Pray: You wrote: "When all else seems muddled and crazy and uncertain, we often times know what the "right" thing to do is. We sometimes don't do it because we dread the fallout from doing it but nonetheless doing the right thing will always "be the right thing".

You are, of course, correct. If it comes to it, I will take the children on a "vacation" as hard as it may be. Don't want to be in a situation where I would have to physically stop the WW from taking the children. I have never hit my WW, and I don't want to do so now...

Thanks for your encouragment.

V

Latest update Jul 11, 2006 9:30 pm edt: Just got off the phone with my attorney. The court has approved my petition for a restraining order: WW can't take the children out of the county w/o my permission. Trial date for custody: Late Aug.

This is the best news that I've received in months, relatively speaking. Of course my marriage is still in tatters, and the affair is ongoing, but at least I have taken action, and so far, the court has agreed.

Next step: Full exposure to friends and family. I haven't been able to do so out of respect for my SIL who is getting married this weekend. Didn't want to create an awkward situation for her. Her wedding day should be about her and her husband, not about me and my WW. (WW and I are both in the wedding party). But after the weekend the gloves come off...

My thanks to all of you who were kind enough to respond to my posts and to offer advice. In no particular order, thanks to MDC, Longhorn, WAT, JustPeachy, Just Learning, Bitbucket, UVA and anybody that I might have skipped.

My work isn't done yet, but I hope I can ask for your advice in the future.

V

God bless!!! Never responded to your thread, but when I stumbled upon it and saw the last post....I saw a MAN, protecting his children, and fighting the evil that has invaded your W with LOVE....Love for the children....and TOUGH LOVE for your W with an addiction.

Believe it or not, this may be the best thing you've done so far to SAVE your marriage. Then EXPOSURE....AND ALL AT ONCE!!!!! SHOCK AND AWE! The light on these A's kills them, sometimes it takes a bit of time.

In my sitch....it took about 6 months, and the A died (along with a dirtbag of an OM) W is now coming around, and is ANXIOUS for us to begin our new life!!!! Read my early posts in my thread.....then find my latest thread in GQII. It is incredible what Plan A with exposure, and patience can do to an insane situation.

Well done, my friend! Now be calm,....she'll be angry...but your motto is..."I believe in our marriage, and I believe in protecting our children." That's it. Do not engage....walk away...and repeat the above. Her anger will be her own inner conflict of what she has done. As one of my favorite posters Sendmeonmyway has told me "Let her choke on it" this may help her fall....no guarentees...but she must suffer a crisis.
MWIL

Verloren,

Congratulations! I agree with you that should delay rocking the boat until after SIL’s wedding. But after that, you should attack the A with the greatest weapon at your disposal: exposure.

Expect WW to go ballistic when she learns about the restraining order and exposure. Expect to hear some of the most bile things you’ve heard in your life. Your standard response should be that you understand WW’s feelings but you are doing and will keep doing what is in the best interest of the FAMILY. Don’t expect her to understand or agree with you, but hold your ground. Do not, however, argue with her. It will be an exercise in futility.

I am happy for the news. Your WW can follow her adulterous partner in Puerto Rico, but your kids stay with you.

God Bless.

Verloren,

Btw, under no circumstances do you get violent with WW, even if she wants to kidnap the children. The court will see to it that the children do not leave the country, so don’t worry about it if WW threatens to take them anyway. If WW does take them away, she would then become a criminal and destroy most of her chances at getting custody of the kids. It is hard to imagine that a court will let WW go to Puerto Rico with the children so she can pursue her adulterous A.

Thus, I see no need for a vacation (lest you subject yourself to a claim of kidnapping, notwithstanding your attorney’s advice) and definitely no need for violence under any circumstances. If you ever get violent with WW, you can pretty much kiss your chance of getting custody goodbye.

God Bless.

Verloren,

Good news, but the tough starts now. I like your decision to wait until after the wedding. Shows a lot of class on your part.

I agree with the others, this may be the first step in recovering your marriage. So far there have been no consequences to your W's affair and I am sure she has convinced herself that everything will work as she planned. Such is the nature of "the fog" for the WS to believe this. I mean she even told you about the affair expecting you to just handle it and let her take the kids for a year.

Get everything documented, including her affair and anything she says or does and then hang on for the rollercoaster ride of your life.

God Bless,

JL

MyWife I lowe, UVA, Just Learning:

Thanks for your reactions. Yes, it's nice to finally be able to do something. For the longest time I was waiting for "actionable information", then it took a couple of days to get the paperwork prepared (Jul 4 Holiday, etc.), then more waiting for the judge to sign off.

Serving of the papers should be tonight. Following the advice you have so kindly given, I will withdraw myself immediately afterwards and not allow myself to be pulled into an argument or a screaming match.

In an earlier post, I mentioned perhaps physically having to stop the WW from taking the children or taking a "vacation". I had only envisioned this if the restraining order had not been approved. Now that it has, the whole issue of physically restraining the WW / going on "vacation" is moot.

I'll to continue to observe and document, as I have been doing since this whole thing started. Am in the process of backtracking my WW trips to Jan 2003 and documenting each and everyone of them.

Will keep you posted on what happens. Tonight should be interesting....

V

Well, it hit the fan last night.

WW got served as she came home from her trip to Puerto Rico, pulling the car into the driveway. Happened at about 8:50 pm EDT. My daughters did not witness this, as I had moved them upstairs to watch TV. WW came into the door, slammed down her suitcases, and gave me a nasty glare. The she went upstairs to say hello to the girls.

After the girls went to bed, WW actually read the document. When she was done, I tried to stay away from WW, but she insisted on being right in my face and following me around. I said I was just trying to protect the family.

WW's Answ: "By breaking it up? Because that's what you have done with this bone headed move. This is on you.. You just blew any chance of any reconciliation whatsoever. And what's with the timing? You just put a great black mark on SIL's wedding. How's she supposed to feel? And why are you denying our DDs this wonderful opportunity to experience a new culture? I hate you for putting the children in the middle of this. That's what you've done, too with this move. I hate you, you make my physically sick, you make me gag....I don't want you in my house or in my bedroom. I thought we might be able solve this amicably, but you are making this ugly, and you're ruining our financial stability in the process.... Do you feel good, now that you've had your revenge, you @$^&*(%$*"

She then proceeded to take all my clothes out of my dresser and our walk-in closet, and dump them down the basement steps (BTW, I have been sleeping in the basement bedroom for awhile now).

I didn't respond to any of this. Went and called my MIL to apologize for what I had to do. She said she understood. Also apologized to SIL (currently preparing for her wedding at MIL's house). SIL said "You did what you had to do. Call us if you need any help." [SIL had asked me last Sunday: "Surely you're not letting WW take the children, are you? I think she's a bonehead, stupid, and ultimately selfish."]

WW interpreted these calls as "Victory Calls".

Went to bed after all of this. . I know WW is in the fog, and that’s where her ugly comments came from, but it was hard to deal with. Didn't get much sleep. In my heart I know I did the right thing, but it still was one of the worst days of my life.

This morning WW continuing to be right at me. Keeps bring up how I'm denying the girls such a wonderful opportunity. She said again there's no hope whatsoever for reconciliation.

DD9 was up and around at this time. WW kept coming at me, though. She asked DD9 if she wouldn't at least like to see where she would be going to school, perhaps meet some new friends. perhaps visit her new ballet school, etc. DD9 replied that would like for all of us to stay together, that she would like to visit Puerto Rico but not stay permanently because she would miss her friends from home too much. WW replied that it wasn't possible for all of us to stay together at this time.

My heart is breaking for all of us right now, but especially for DD9...

What a ride... Does it get any worse?

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt! You are doing fine. You keep doing the right thing by your kids and yourself and allow your WW to self destruct. She may get it, she may not, (mine hasn't and probably will not until rock bottom, if then even) but you will feel better about you and you will be able to look in the mirror and you will be able to talk to your kids about this some day when they are old enough to understand daddy fighting for them.

I heard most of what your heard several different ways and times over the past few months. I am content with what I am doing (not happy, not joyous, etc), content and resolved to look out for my kids and myself as WW is only interested in herself and OM. She will need no help in the looking out for department and neither will your WW, they have been doing that since and before the A started and will continue to do so, so don't feel bad about placing consequences of their behavior directly in their paths.

Start documenting everything, words, actions, comments, threats, keep a daily log, audio tape everything including phone calls if your state permits it and so on. Plan for the worst, pray and hope for the best, use the MB principles and sage advice from those here that have been there and always make your children and your own well being first choice.

Congratulations my friend!!!! I know you won't believe it when I tell you this, but if there is any chance at all....you just took the first step!!! YES....THIS IS AS WORSE AS IT GETS!!! But laugh at her internally...."..you are breaking up the family..." WHAT!!! HILARIOUS!! She has done that work already....her anger is her guilt....she'll get over it. Stand strong...

My FWW said the exact same thing when I first exposed and threatened to take custody from her....she backed down and we reached an agreement that was VERY favorable to ME!! (No child support, I got the house, half the time with the kids, motorhome, better car, kept my retirement)

Those words....ahhh, yes, those words...."You've ruined any chance that we...blah, blah, blah..........!!!!!!!!! I heard them 7 months ago!!!! Here is the latest email my FWW just sent me!!!!:

FWW: "I know that. And some of the changes YOU have made for yourself and what you have given of yourself througout this whole thing have made it so much easier for me to see MY path - since I have been blessed with the opportunity. Don't ever think I don't know that things could have gone very differently. I will probably spend the rest of my life thanking you."

It turns.....once the fantasy breaks apart....the anger is NOT your W!!!!! IT IS someone else!! Someone SHE is NOT proud of.....the old moral compass....broke.

Believe it or not....this is a good sign.....but she needs to deal with her own inner conflict....you are forcing her to do just that!!!!

Verloren,

I think you are doing very well.

You are getting good advice from people who have been in similar situations. My situation was/is a little different.

But... I have a few comments.

1) You got a good hit in the first inning. Don't rest now. These legal things tend to go back and forth. Be psychologically ready for that - and as far as possible, prepare your kids for that. There are others who could better advise you... but this time, you caught your wife off-gaurd. You won't have the advantage of surprise again.

But...

2) You can still take further initiatives. Personally, I'd get out of the basement. You're the master of the house! Go move yourself back into the master bedroom. If she can't stand you being there, she can leave.

You might look into the question of whether it is a criminal act to damage your personal property (clothing). I don't know... that's probably a long shot. Maybe Mr. Wondering could put in his legal view on that question.

3) Like other folks said. YOu must ABSULUTELY avoid any violent/physical confrontation with your W. Don't even shout at her. Even if you do nothing, she might spring a bogus protection order on you. Do whatever you can to protect yourself against that - as it would probably force you out of the house for awhile - and run up the legal bills.

4) In my state, recordings are admissable as long as one party knows that they are being recorded. If that is true in your state, you might see what you can do about recording any altercations you have at home - as a protection against phoney claims of abuse by her.

And...

5) Just because she's furious with you does not prevent you from recovering your marriage. I think you are doing very well.

-AD

HopeAndPray, MWIL, _AD_, thanks for your responses. It's been a rough week. Last night was a little better than before.

I moved all my clothes back from the basement into my dresser and the walk-in closet. Told the WW she was silly; it's not like she needs more space for her stuff. Non of the items in the dresser was hers. She grumbled but didn't throw the stuff out again. It was actually a great opportunity to go through my stuff and throw out the things I no longer use or need.

WW is constantly taking swipes at me, though. Example: Daycare for DD4 need to have a form filled out by the doctor. I said I would take care of it. WW swipes: "So that you can put another item on your tally?" I just ignore these remarks.

You brought up some interesting points in your posts that I will try to adress below:

Re: "You just lost any chance we might reconcile again": Glad to hear that it is part of the set of "standard" answers a WS gives when opposed / served w/ papers / exposed. So there's hope.

However, I'm pretty sure her plan is to file for divorce, attempt to get custody and then move to Puerto Rico w/ the children. It may be harder than she thinks. I've been told that when it comes to awarding custody, courts look for a solution that disrupts the children as little as possible, ie, no moves to far away places, staying in the same schools, day cares, etc, same ballet classes, same aunts and uncles etc. If I get custody, very little would change. Mommy would be away, but I'm sure she would come to visit often. Schools, daycare, friends, family, would all stay the same. If my WW gets custody, the children's lives will be turned completely upside down twice: once when she leaves, then again when she returns in a year (or not). The only thing that I'm a little concerned about is the financial situation: WW makes twice as much money as I do.

Re: Keeping records: Am keeping a journal in which I write down the exchanges between my WW and me. I also write down all activities with the children. I also have a digital voice recorder. Just like your state, _AD_, recordings are admissible as long as one party knows that they are being recorded. In fact, the recorder gave me the only concrete evidence of the affair and of WW's intent to move to Puerto Rico. Am thinking about installing a voice recorder in WW's car to capture her phone conversations with OM. While not admissible in court, I would at least have a better idea of what's she's up to. Will also use the recorder to protect myself against protection orders.

Re moving back into the master bedroom: I might just do that. I tried to stay in master bedroom for as long as I could. Had to give up, though. In spite of all that has happened I still had "urges" that the WW was unwilling to meet (duh). To prevent myself from going completely nuts, I moved downstairs.

At this point, however, WW has stated that I "make her gag." Also, my ADs have kicked in. One of the "lucky" side effects is that the ADs take away the "urges" almost completely. So if I move back upstairs, she might just move out. If not, at least I won't have the "urges" to deal with anymore.

Re: No physical or verbal violence: Check. I've never been a violent person, and I don't want to start now. As far as shouting is concerned. I am sometimes guilty of that. It's getting better though. Some of the things out of WW's mouth are so outrageous I can only shake my head and laugh: Example: WW: "I'm not preventing you from seeing the children when I move to Puerto Rico." Me: "How do you figure that?" WW: Well you could move to Puerto Rico too, on your own and rent an apartment near mine. You would then be able to see the children." (And WW with OM, of course). It's laughable. She really has gone off the deep end....

In any case, thanks for your replies and support. Keep it coming, please. This board is a life saver that is allowing me to keep my sanity.

V

Verloren,

Your W is an intelligent woman and will become a desperate one as well. Make darn sure you copy your records and store them someplace else where she has NO access. Do this regularly.

Also, expose to all after the wedding, if exposure has not already taken place. As for her making more money than you, that often works in YOUR favor as courts will often set CS to balance what is lost.

Stay calm, protect yourself, your children and your records. She will have a hard time admitting she is wrong, but she will also pull every legal trick in the book. She wants EVERYTHING her way. You have sort of made a mess of her plans. Expect anger, more anger, hateful words, and attempts to anger you or provoke a fight. Now more than ever you "fight" by walking away.

This part of the script and untill they try to badger, provoke, bargin, and negotiate they will NOT be ready to face the reality of what they have done.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Just from the female perspective .... when you "MAN UP" .... you become far more attractive ....

WW will not admit anything like that now ... but trust me, I've been a woman for a loooooong time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .... she's saying *gag* but she's interested in you again because she is now uncertain where you will exibit your manliness next !!!

I think this is a very exciting thread because it's shows a MAN instead of a BH

LOVING THIS

Pep

Dear Verloren,

I'm sure you will find your way again, and no longer be "Verloren" (finally someone here who speaks my mother tongue!).

If you can find any of Bob Pure's early threads (about 2+ years ago) you will find another similar story to yours - WS completely smitten by OM, saying "all chances for restoring M are over" when Bob decided to expose to OM's wife, then WS slowly coming out of the fog..
There are many stories just like that here, as you have read in the replies to your post.
So hang on - it's quite a rollercoaster.

Sometimes WS don't even believe that they really said some of the hurtful things AFTER they come out of the fog. Try not to take it personally, however hard that is.
Some posters call it "WS has been abducted by aliens" and that's exactly what it sounds like when a normally decent person tries to justify indecent behavior.

I'm glad you have found this place for support and advice.
I hope WW will soon de-fog..
But I'm sure YOU will come out all right, because it seems to me your heart is in the right place.

Verloren,

If there are any financial things you can lock down... such as children's educations funds, home equity line of credit, life insurances that can be cashed out, brokerage accounts... lock 'em down. Not that you should run off with the money but don't make it easy for her to do that either. Probably she's financially savy and might be able to put you in a tight spot.

If she moved out and stopped contributing to the family budget, would you be able to make the mortgage payments?

-AD

Verloren,

You did great! I am very proud of you. Odds are zero to none that your WW will be able to take your kids to Puerto Rico even if she divorces you and gets custody. Courts are loath to doing things like that. So I would not worry about that too much.

Good luck on your exposure this weekend. You are on the right road.

Everyone

Thanks for your reactions. Things are happening very rapidly right now, and I don't have the time right now to type it all up. Stay tuned, though, I will try to post more tonight. It sure looks as if WW's self-destruction has begun.

V

Hello all: WWW basically wants for the both of us to stop spending money on legal fees, as she feels that the money could be better spent. (I agree with that). However, she did contact an attoney herself, who, AFAIK, is working on some "compromise" that the WW wants tro reach:

She wants to go to Puerto Rico, but return home every weekend. During the week, the children will be with me, and with both of us during the weekends. She wants to keep full custody, (IOW, for me to drop my custocy case) have the fact that she's going away for a year not be held against her in family or state supreme court and for both of us to take no further legal action until her assigment in Puerto Rico is finished. If any of us wants to pursue legal action at that time, we are free to do so. She wants at least two long weekends where the girls can come visit in Puerto Rico. Finally, she wants counseling for DD9

Didn't say much to this. My gut reaction is NO, but I'm going to have to think about this. She's going to Puerto Rico one way or the other. The above scenario is a heck of a lot less cosy and convenient for her and the OM than they had first imagined. They can see each other only during the week and not during the weekends. It might just be enough for the A to die out on its own, aided by a letter to OM's family which I'm drafting. (Did a reverse lookup on one of the phone #s WW dials all the time. Found out that the phone is actually registered to one of OM's family members (same last name), not OM himself. So since I now have a mailing address, this family member will be receiving a nice letter from me.)

Anyway, Im thinking that if I would agree to any or all of this, (and again, my gut reaction is NO), if the fact that she's going away for a year cannot be held against her in court, I would want her to agree upfront to at least 50% custody for me, before any divorce proceedings have even started. If the children were to go to Puerto Rico for 2 long weekends, I would need to have precautions in place to ensure their return to the mainland after each of the weekends. Also, under no circumstances are they to meet OM, not while they're there, and not while WW comes home to visit (if she ever brings OM with her). Finally, I would need a clause in there that my signature of the document would not mean that I consent with, give permission for, accept or condone her adultery.

Is this the WW just badgering and negotiating so she can have her way and continue the A? That's what it seems like to me.

Any thoughts?

V

Are you stupid? Are you crazy? There is nothing to think about. WW wants to go to Puerto Rico to screw OM and thereby destroy your family, and your thinking of making it easy for her. Appeasement will not get you nowhere, least of all your marriage and the protection of your children. You don’t compromise with a foggy WW.

You have WW exactly where you want her, and you are susceptible to agreeing to enable her to boink OM without facing the FULL CONSEQUENCES of her action. You’d be a fool not to press your advantage. You will probably never be in such a position again. I am sure your WW’s lawyer tells her that she has no leg to stand on legally, but yet you are contemplating giving your WW custody (and asking her to promise you at least 50% custody later on). Unbelievable! I am just speechless.

It is total bullsh*t that WW tells you should not spend money on your lawyer, who is protecting your rights with your CHILDREN. What part of PROTECTING YOUR CHILDREN don’t you understand? Your lawyer is there to protect you, don’t let your WW convince you otherwise.

Verloren, let us know now if you won’t stand up for yourself and your CHILDREN with some misguided idea of appeasing your WW. I don’t want to waste my time nor yours. If you don’t remember else anything I say, remember that your WW does not have your (best) interest in mind. Your wife, yes; your WW, never. Keep this in mind when she wants to negotiate about something.

Thus, my advice to you is to tell your WW a big fat NO to her request. If she wants to negotiate about custody, she goes though your lawyer; you do marriage, not divorce.

Thought I throw in this

Our OM was 750 miles away. When WW conjured up ways to go visit him I just said "no". Without much emotion. Just a simple "no". She'd get upset or sulk but the issue was not up for negotiations...it just was "no". I discared her request along with all the other fog babble.

In recovery, in turns out, those "no's" were quite powerful. She was frustrated but couldn't figure out how to manipulate my simple and resolute "no's". I am respected today, in part, because I didn't waver in the face of such blatant forms of manipulation. Don't allow fear to trump being right, no matter the cost.

"Maybe's" demonstrate weakness. Be strong in your convictions but quiet in the delivery. The word "no" speaks for itself.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Can you seek out a better paying job. Good Father is a poster that recently was behind the eight ball a bit because his wife made more than him too. Three months later she got fired and he got a great job doubling his salary. God helps those that help themselves and He is most definetly on YOUR team right now.

Verloren,

Not only NO but SHELL NO!

Let me put this to you in a different frame. Which is more important to you the children or a fog bound cheating W? Which do YOU have more responsibility for?

This is a no brainer. I hate to tell you this and I say this with apologies to Mr. Dubya hisself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Lawyer fees are NOT going to go down NEXT year or the year after that. You are saving NOTHING my friend, just postponing a later cost.

On the other hand if YOU spend the money NOW, you just might save the marriage, but you will definitely save your children from the life style your W is proposing. The children DON'T go over seas period unless there is an relationship between PR and US that will allow you to have her arrested, but of course she could have left the country by then.

This is nuts. NO, is what you are thinking and NO is the right answer. You are arguing with someone whose logic, honesty, and motivations are to be charitible completely messed up. Would you trust a drug addict with anything financial much less your children?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Please see your lawyer NOW.

Verloren,

I think this deal is not in your best interest, nor in the best interest of your children.

Have you considered telling your wife "I won't prevent you from visiting the children, but since they will be with me almost all the time, I will have primary custody - and they will not visit PR"? For the children, that will be almost the same as your W's proposal. They will see their mother regularly (if she comes). The only thing they will "lose" is the visits to PR. Most kids don't get to visit PR so I would think they could live quite happily without that.

Also, one of the things your wife asks for is basicly impossible. She can't hold you to "not using her year's absense against her in court." [You legal folks chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.] The judge will be bound by law to consider "the best interest of the children" above all else. While you can agree in advance to overlook an arrangement that is not in the best interest of the children, you cannot bind the judge to that. The judge can't overlook the best interest of the children. Again, I appeal to the real legal minds to comment on this, but any agreement that you make to that effect, I believe will be powerless if you decide later to raise this issue in a custody hearing.

I get the impression that you are afraid to say "no". Many of us are afraid to say "no". But, as Mr. W points out, it is a neccesary word, the use of which often earns respect.

Verloren,

I came back to add a few other things. She started this dance and I have not heard a thing about her ending this dance with OM. It seems to me the music has NOT stopped, therefore, YOU need to proceed with full custody if you can get it, and having her decide to end the affair before you even consider listening to any other offers she may have.

So far she has successfully redirected the issues to be with you. Your response to her should be simple: "I love you and want to remain married to you. Is the affair over?" Then simply walk away. No OTHER issue is of concern until she ends the affair.

Keep on topic, keep on message and make it very simple. No love busting, no yelling, just actions that indicate that you will continue your path of both waiting for her to end the A, Plan A, and you will continue to insure that your children are protected from her lack of care or concern about anything but herself.

You must be absolutely relentless in this while avoiding all love busters.

God Bless,

JL

V,
Ditto what everyone has said!!! My FWW says today, (Even though she was MADDER than a mad cow) that her respect for me GREW (albeit, later on) BECAUSE I was standing up for OUR FAMILY. She says now, that she WOULD NOT HAVE had a path home. You NEED to show her NOW that YOU CHERISH the family....even if the "WW" is the one spewing words without rationality.

You see, YOUR actions, cut through the "WW's front" and go to the core of who your W is. Treat your WW as "another person" trying to take your kids....if it helps...picture your WW as a man who is a child molester. What would you do if a child molester (stranger) ask if he could take your kids to PR. (And by the way......WHO KNOWS???....MAYBE OM IS A CHILD MOLESTER!!!!!!!!)

MAN UP!!!!!! You are in a position to SAVE YOUR FAMILY!!!! Do it in a way as describe by all who have posted to you.....THEY ARE HELPING ME SAVE MY M!!!! THEY GIVE INVALUABLE ADVICE!!!! AND IT'S THE RIGHT ADVICE!!!

Good luck my friend.....have a talk with God!! He will guide you!!

MWIL

UVA, Mr. Wondering, JL, _AD_, MWIL

Thanks everyone for all your reactions. I can see you all agree with what my gut feeling is telling me.... --NO-- to this "compromise".

You have to understand: At the moment, I’m not sure if I can trust my gut feelings anymore. I used to trust my gut, but when this whole mess first came up, my gut feeling was to go to Puerto Rico with the WW. This was definitely wrong, as was pointed out to me. Just wanted to make sure my gut wasn’t telling me the wrong thing again.

However, I’m convinced that after I tell her NO to her compromise, WW will file for divorce. Some of you talk about what you did in while in recovery. In my case, it’s unlikely that there will be any recovery at all: we’re going from A directly to D.

And when it comes to D, the WW can make my life very, very difficult: She earns twice as much as I do, and there is no way I can cover the mortgage on my own. If I ever had to move out and get a place to live for myself, I wouldn’t be able to afford anything in the area. I would have to move a long ways away, which would then complicate seeing the children, traveling to work, etc. WW has more money in her 401K than I do and can afford to fight a lot longer.

Currently, we have a joint checking and savings acct, 3 credit cards, (no balance), We have a first and second mortgage, & one car loan. Both of us have 401K accts. Finances are tracked by me. I pay the bills. I use a PFM and I am right on top of it. I can tell you to the penny what the balances are for each of those accounts, including 401K. But I guess it’s time to start separating the stuff.

I have a question when it comes to credit cards: Of the 3 cards, one is in my name (my name is the only name on the statement, but WW has a card for her to use.) and 2 are in her name (her name is the only name on the statement, but I have a card for each of the 2 accounts for me to use). Does this mean that technically the credit cards are already separated (since in each case there’s only one name on the statement)? If so, does this then mean I only have to get my WW’s card for “my” acct back, and give my 2 cards for “her” accts back to her? Or do we still need to call the credit card companies and request to have each other’s names taken off the other person’s card(s)?

Like I said in one of my previous posts, the WW seems to be self-destructing, though. She is closing herself off from everyone and everything that she has ever loved. I understand that I’m in a unique situation, in that my in-laws are 100% behind me, not her. Members of our dance group are behind me, not her. She is contemplating resigning from the dance group completely (and she has been involved in dance since she was a toddler). She is very bitter and thinks everyone is conspiring against her. She feels I could not possibly have thought of getting the restraining order / request for custody by myself. I’ve told her that none of the in-laws and none of the members of the dance group knew what I was going to do. She doesn’t believe me. She also told me “I didn’t think you’d have the balls to do it.” Rather than responding to this, I just shrugged my shoulders. She says she doesn’t want an all-out war between us. Neither do I. But she keeps telling me that things are definitely over…Actions have consequences, she tells me. Yes they do….

In the past couple of days, I’ve done the following: Exposure to friends and family, as well as to OM’s family (see previous post). Dropped off copies of the restraining order at daycare, camp and the local PD. When WW comes home from Puerto Rico this Friday (yes, she’s there again), I will let her know that if she wants to pick up the children from daycare or camp, she needs to ask me first. I will also move back into the master bedroom. If she is truly disgusted by me, she knows where she can find another bed.

Thanks for your continued support, everyone. Please keep it coming.

V

Verloren,

Congratulations on handling this so well! It may not feel like it now, but ... it's just my opinion that you are doing better than I did. The worst thing to do is just let it slide - accept empty promises and let it drag on for years. That's what I did. I'm D'd.

For the CC account that is in your name, you can cancel her card easily. It would only take 15 minutes to do it. Of course, she can do the same to you on the accounts which are in your name. If you don't need access to that credit, it won't be a problem.

Legal advice should come from lawyers and I'm not one.

... that said, I think there is a good chance you may be able to get spousal support (that is, she will pay you alimony) plus child support and the judge may order her to continue to pay the mortgage while the case is pending. On the other hand, you may not.

It's great that you have good records. I would recommend that you make a copy of all financial records and store it in a secure place outside the home.

I think you need to talk to MortarMan. If you find his thread and drop him a note, I'm sure he'll come over here and give you some excellent advice.

-AD

If the car is titled in your name or in "joe smith OR jane smith", you can sell it and pay off the loan. If it's in her name alone or with an "AND" in there, you can't do that. One guy on here did that - picked up is W's car and traded it in for one that was paid for - right out of the parking lot while she was at work. You need legal advice, of course before doing stuff like that.

-AD

Verloren,

Interesting post you had. Do you see what the problem is? Do you see that what each of us are telling seems to be true? Permit me to quote from your post and let's discuss this.

You said
Please NOTE the bolded portions of this quote. Please note that one of the things you will have to do to regain your marriage is show her by actions that you do have "the balls" to fight for your children and your family. For reasons you probably don't understand (I sure don't) she has decided that you are not "man" enough. This is part of the delusion of an affair. It is part of her feeling that SHE is somehow special and deserves to have it "her way" no matter who it hurts.

You fight these delusions by being resolute, by constantly being on attack with regards to defending your children and your self, and basically letting her self-destruct. You are into computers are you not? You have solved more complex problems than this one. This one is a sort of self healing one, IF you stay the course.

She does not want an all out war because she will lose it. She has more to lose with regard to professional reputation, the children, YOU, and many other things. After all YOU don't count right? You don't bring much to the party right? That is her thinking. So what she wants is to negotiate it so that she wins and you lose, because in a war she feels you have much less to lose than she. It is foolish pride on her part, but that is what you are dealing with.

Set your plan and be resolute in following it. Go to the lawyers and discuss strategy with regard to custody, what she can and might do, and be ahead of this. Meanwhile, no love busters, at first she is going to misinterpret this as weakness, but eventually she will see the strength you possess.

Verloren, hang in there and protect the children and your marriage by being steady, and resolute with regard to her and the marriage.

God Bless,

JL

Ver,

JL hits it right on the head. Your WW thinks you are spineless wimp. Hence she was very surprised that you actually took action to protect yourself. In fact, she does not believe that it was really your doing, but rather you doing the bidding of others.

It is obvious that you have been a pushover during your M, at least that is how your WW perceives it. It is ok; many of us have been there, including me in a past life. The key question is what kind of a person are you now or what kind of a person are you willing to be: the wimp that gets push around (in the interest of appeasing someone who does not give a d*mn about him and is completely disregarding him and his feelings by flaunting her A in his face) or someone who stands up for himself and do his best to protect his children.

I believe the answer is clear. During this ordeal, it is imperative that your WW finds out that you indeed have a pair of “balls” (as she aptly put it), and that you will not just lie down and let her to run all over you. You see, from WW’s comments, it is obvious that she has no respect for you as a MAN. You must change that!

If your choice is between Protecting your children and Plan D, you choose the former every time. It is a no brainer. So don’t let your fear of losing your M prevents you from doing what you need to do for your children. They need at least one reasonable parent that will stand up for their interests. And that parent is you!

Do not be intimidated by WW’s threat to you about custody. WW is in a very precarious on this point, notwithstanding what she might say to the contrary. Let’s take a closer look. You have been taking care of the children more than your WW, so that will work in your favor in court. You are not moving anywhere, your WW is. Your WW had the A, not you. Hence your WW’s actions are the ones that are disrupting and will continue to disrupt your children’s lives. These are all points that will work in your favor when brought up in court. (I sure hope you have been documenting everything).

But let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that WW gets primary custody. I say “primary” because she will never get full custody of the children. To complicate things, she will never be able to take the children to Puerto Rico to live with her (unless of course you consent). Thus, she will have to exchange the children with you on a weekly basis. This arrangement will totally disrupt her life if she lives in Puerto Rico. Even if she travels back every week, after a while this traveling will take its toll on her body and her psych. Eventually, she would have to choose between being with OM and being with the children. It is exactly this dilemma you don’t want to take away from her. It is exactly the position you want her to be in. So please don’t try to appease your WW or try to make it easy on her. Your children, your sanity, and possibly your M depend on it.

In short, be a MAN: both for yourself and your children.

God Bless.

AD, JL, UVA, thanks for responses. Last night was an interesting night. WW came home from Puerto Rico for the weekend (actually, she leaves again on Tuesday). She had a major meltdown when I came in the Master Bedroom and said that I would be sleeping there, too. Started screaming at me that she didn’t have one single place in the house that was all hers, where she could avoid me. I am afraid I didn’t do too well, either. There was some major LB, but I feel it couldn’t be avoided.

Anyway, I told her that if she needed a place to be by herself, she could go into the basement bedroom. I had even cleaned up the room for her. She said she didn’t want it.

She locked me out of the master bedroom, but I used a screwdriver to unlock the door. She tried to hog as much of the bed as possible, but I managed to lay down on it, without touching her. She tried to push me off with her feet. I did not get off. Then some major discussion started.

WW: “Since you choose to move downstairs, this bedroom is no longer yours.” Me: “I’m claiming it back. I’m not the one who started all of this mess. You did. So if anyone has to move out of this bedroom, it should be you. I have just as much right to be in here as you do. If I really disgust you, if I really make you gag, you know where you can go.” WW: “You’re just doing this to get even.” Me: “No I am just letting you know that I am not a doormat that you can walk all over.” WW: “Are you that desperate to be next to me?” Me: “Right now, I don’t give a $%#@ where you sleep. All I know is that I’m sleeping here. You can go downstairs, or stay next to me, but I’m staying here.”

Then she backed down a little bit: WW: “Why do you keep escalating things? First you served the papers, now this. Why do you keep doing this? You know I want to compromise with you.” Me: “I didn’t think I had any other choice. All you kept doing was saying how you were going to go to Puerto Rico and take the children with you. You never even once considered my feelings, you never even once asked me what I thought of the whole idea. And knowing how much you respect me, if I had said: ‘I forbid you to take the children’, you would have just laughed in my face. WW denied this: “If you had said that, I would have sat down and try to come to an agreement.” Me: “I simply don’t believe you, and why would I want to come to an agreement in which I lose my children and get to watch from a distance as they them romp around with their mother AND HER LOVER in what’s basically still a 3rd world country?” WW: “You shouldn’t say that. The culture in Puerto Rico is much more developed than you think. Me: “I am experiencing some of this “culture” right now, and it involves a Puerto Rico man banging my wife. Excuse me for not wanting to expose the children to this “culture”, not even for one day.” Then she fed me some of the standard fog lines: “Our marriage was over long before OM entered the picture, I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to hurt your feelings” etc. She finished by saying she still wants to reach a compromise.

We went to sleep after that. Neither one of us left the bedroom. This morning (Sat Jul 22) not much was said between us.

I don’t know. I’m thinking we’re going straight for D… Not what I want, but I feel it’s coming closer and closer, and there’s not much I can do to stop it, it seems.

Upset <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

V

I've been following your thread. You are doing so well, in such a completely rotten situation. I can't imagine how a person wouldn't feel down and upset with a cheating spouse. But... all of the actions you're taking are the right ones. Everything you told her is true -- you didn't create the mess. You have done the right thing to protect yourself and your children, while your wife has shown no regard for anyone or any decency. If there's a chance to salvage your marriage, this in the only way it can be done -- by standing up to her and not letting her walk all over you. You are showing her how a real man acts, not a scumbag that will screw someone else's wife.

You know... there's a pattern on this forum, where spouses who've had weight-loss surgery cheat and dump the spouse who loved them when they were heavy. Maybe after years of being rejected by the majority of people, who wouldn't consider being involved with someone who is obese, they revert into some silly adolescence and want to see who they can get, now that they're thin. I believe that there are some psychological issues with this that go beyond the normal cheating spouse. There are attractive, successful and wonderful people who are attracted to heavy partners, or who at least will see beyond it and love them in spite of it. Good Father and a woman named Julie (I think) were both dumped by their spouses as soon as they lost a lot of weight after surgery. I wonder if your wife's OM knows that she was heavy before? I wonder if she's thought about the fact that it wasn't your marriage breaking down, but the fact that she's acting out because she lost weight - and that she's destroying her family over it.

It doesn't appear that she's in any hurry for D. She's just mouthing off due to exposure and you standing up to her. Try to be patient and see how things play out. Once she's around her boyfriend all the time, that might cool off fairly quickly. And she'll miss her home and your kids too. Try to make her time home as pleasant and happy as you can.

Anyway... hang in there. You really are doing great. You might see her changing her attitude about you as you continue shocking her with your actions. Your actions also emphasize how immoral her actions are.

GOOD FOR YOU! Why should a person that has been faithful lose his wife and kids his home and everything he owns. You did the right thing and I want to say great job.

If she loves her kids so much she will have to make a choice. She will have to decide does she love the OM more or would she rather be with them here in the states. I guess in fantasy land what is suppose to happen is she gets a new man, new place to live, new start and her kids. I guess it doesn't matter that you would be left with nothing.

Unless she comes out of her alien state you are not going to get her back by letting her have her way. The kids are going to want to stay where they are now.

In reality world if she wants this new man she should pay for child support and she can go off to be with OM. Who knows you may look back and find out that things worked out all for the best.



I love your response! It gave a good laugh!! I know you don't think it is funny but what a WS will say. I guess maybe she should have informed you that the marriage was over. What is happening now is she is dealing with reality. In fantasy land you would have rolled over and let her do what she wants because it is all about her.

All I can say is good for you! Hang in there!

Verloren,

Well I have one thing to say: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> make that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are doing soooo well. You just don't know it yet. "Steady as she goes" is the watch word. Go see your lawyer, and prepare for custody battle and Oh yeah get information on how much she is going to be paying YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That will chap her hide I can assure you.

My point, she is bargainning. She does NOT want to face the fact that she is an adulteress and that it is continuing. The point previous made about the by pass surgery and the consequent weight loss is something you need to consider. More often than not really heavy people do have issues beyond food. Removing the weight gained because of the food does NOT remove the issues.

Be firm, be relentless, by kind, and be filled with grace and be the best Dad you can be. The time of reconning is coming and you might be surprised at the result. It could be D but it might just be something that will surprise you.

Your goals are simple: be a great Dad, and to be able to look yourself in the mirror and KNOW you did all you were capable of. What happens with your W after that is beyond your control.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Well done, Verloren!

Yes, as JL said, "steady as she goes".

... and for whatever it's worth, I feel your pain. Don't let the garbage that she's saying drag you down. You're a worthy man.

-AD

V,

I'll give you an A or maybe an A-.....a couple LB's....but they were in the context of some boundaries that she passed....

The crap about "not loving you before the A is RIGHT OUT OF THE STANDARD WS's SCRIPT!!!!! Let that flow in one ear and out the other.....when you reconcile with her....it will be proof that THEY DO talk from the fog!!! My FWW said the exact same thing about 8 months ago.....today, we spent the whole day together..with the kids...and when they would go into the other room.....we would have long MAKE-OUT sessions!! Like teenagers.....and then she told me that she knows our future is going to be a story book ending!!!

Keep fighting!!!! You'll save your love for your W if (when she is gone) to focus on yourself!!! I'm telling you, when she is free to do with OM as she sees fit....the real world will crash around her.....she will need you to land safely. You will continue to take the WORST CRAP from a person that vowed to love you forever!!!!

If you want her.....you must suck it up...MB works, will give you the best shot at recovery, and if not the M...then for YOU!!....but not always easy!!

MWIL

Latest update:

On Saturday, I registered DD9 for the After School Program for next year.I think WW was impressed with the fact that I had researched the After School Program all by myself and registered DD9 for it., although she didn't say anything. Slept in master bedroom Sat night. No fight/discussion.

On Sunday morning, I made sure to be nice to WW, asking her how she was feeling and if there was anything I could do for her. Went into the garage to fix WW's bicycle.

In the afternoon, WW started to talk about the "compromise" she wants us to reach: I told her that my beef is with her relationship w/ OM. Told her that I think it's not in the girl's best interest to visit Puerto Rico in the current circumstances and that I will try to avoid any visits whatsoever. This seemed to startle her.

She said I was exhibiting "schizophrenic behavior" by being nice to her in the morning and hard as nails in the afternoon. Explained to her that I was just trying to set some boundaries. She told me that "our marriage is over and it's time you start dealing with that" and "if it hadn't been OM it would have been someone else, since you certainly weren't providing what I needed." I told her I agreed with the latter and asked her: "Why don't you tell me what I wasn't providing?" We talked a little bit about her ENs after that. More about this in a later post.

WW also said that I was confusing DD9 by moving back in the master bedroom: "She is going to think things are actually getting better between us." My answ: "I will talk to DD9, but if you really want her to feel better, you should give up your relationship with OM and come home." No answer after this.

WW was obviously upset after our discussion, on the brink of tears. I decided to just let her stew in it and didn't say or do anything else. Invited everyone to come on a bike ride, but WW wasn’t interested. DD9 decided not to go either, because “Mommy is sad.” Went by myself and took DD4 in the carrier on the back.

So, how am I doing?

V

That, sir, is what plan A is all about!!!! She actually said "schizophrenic behavior"????? Boy...seems to prove the theory of "projecting" oneself onto another!!!!!

Great job!!! Keep it up and she will fold like a house of cards.....just no LB's...keep them boundaries up....I know it hurts to hear "our marriage is over and it's time you start dealing with that".....REMEMBER, this is not your W......it really isn't!!! You are giving me flashbacks to my sitch 8 months ago....almost to a T!!! But I trusted the MB pricipals.....went through my growing pains....and it has worked flawlessly...not saying every sitch is the same....just gives the best opportunity to heal the marriage and yourself.

An example of two emails from my WW and then my FWW:

WW back in Jan. '06.....

"Hi. I just wanted to let you know that if you are trying to piss me off it is working extremely well. I am trying to be patient with the fact that you want to limit your contact with me. But you are making it very hard for me to work with you with your inconsiderate behavior. You have had 48 hours to let me know where the kids are going tomorrow. My mother is waiting to hear what her day is going to be like tomorrow. That is just rude. It is also rude that you had to make me ask for the new phone number and not give it to me after you probably guessed that I called last night and the number was disconnected. If you are are working on figuring tomorrow out - tell me that. Just say "I need to check a couple of things, I will let you know this afternoon". SOMETHING. You told me that after the first couple of weeks you wanted to limit your contact with me. Well, its has not been a couple of weeks yet and we need to work together to keep things running smooth for the kids and the people who watch them. My mother agreed to change her schedule. She will watch the kids next week Wed Thurs and Friday. And the following week Monday Tuesday and Wednesday. That does mean that you are going to have to make an occasional trip to drop off or pick up. I don't think once a week or so (I will work with you on that) is going to kill you. I still have to talk to Karen about her days, hopefully she is agreeable. You can sit back and let me take care of this and think to yourself that this is all my fault so its my cross to bear. But I am not going to be considerate of you if you can't be considerate of me. I did not HAVE to ask my mother to watch the kids different days. As far as I am concerned, as we discussed, my mother is my pay responsibility. And if you can not work with her schedule that is not my fault. As well, I did not HAVE to agree to pay karen 1/2 this week. My mother is still a debt to me. Even more so considering you put my checking account in the hole over $1000. I don't want to fight with you. And I understand that you don't like me and don't want to do anything agreeable to me. You have made that more than clear. I need the kids snow clothes this weekend. DID YOU GET THAT E-MAIL??? I would not know that considering you did not even respond to me with an "ok". You dont' have to like me but you don't have to be rude."


And today, my FWW, in response to my email:

My email: " I'll probably be away from my computer for a good chunk of the day. Just wanted to tell you how appreciative of YOU I am. It'll be nice down the road to have coffee and "smilie faces" in the morning to greet me.....along with clothes I don't have to iron!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm looking forward to ....................well......everyday, now!!!!

Talk to you later....Hope your day is perfect!

xoxo me

And her response: "ditto, ditto, ditto and ditto <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> xoxoxo me."

Fog gone!!!! You see???? Hang in there!!!!!

MWIL

Verloren,

I will repeat what others are telling you. When you hear
What you are hearing is her "logic" to explain why she is not a cheating, lying, adulteress. She cannot and has not faced that yet. So it must be true it was your fault for the A. No chance of that. If it had not been OM, then it would have been another OM, is her way of saying "I cannot be what I know I am. It must be your fault."

Just smile, tell her you love her. And remind her that YOU had no say in her deciding to cheart and lie. You were not consulted, you were not warned, you had NO ROLE in her choices. You did and accept responsibility for your contributions to the state of the marriage, but the affair...NOPE.

Then just walk off and continue to plan A, and be the best Dad you can be.

God Bless,

JL

Hello all.

Just wanted to give my latest update and to reply to some folks that have responded to my thread but haven’t received an answer from me yet.

Yesterday was again an interesting day. WW was at work (same site as I am) and wanted to pick up the children from camp /daycare. I left her a voicemail message saying that both camp and daycare have received a copy of the restraining order and are now very reluctant to release the children to anyone but me (even though the restraining order doesn’t say anything about WW not being allowed to pick up the children). In my message, I told her to please call me when she leaves so I can call ahead to camp and daycare to inform the staff that it’s OK to release the children to her.

Within 10 minutes she called me back, furious. “Why are you doing this? Why do you keep escalating things? You’re making it hard for me to compromise with you if you keep doing stuff like this.” I explained to her that this is normal for a restraining order involving children, and that even our local PD has received a copy. Also explained that I was doing her a favor by leaving her the voicemail. It would have been a bad situation for both WW and the girls had she arrived at camp / daycare without me calling ahead: the staff would not have released the children to her. She calmed down after this. At home everything was fine. Invited everyone for a bike ride again after dinner, and this time WW accepted. All 4 of us went.

During the days that WW is at home, she wants to drop off / pick up the children and give DD4 a bath every night. I let her. After all, WW is still the girls’ mother. We’ve had no more fights about me moving back into the master bedroom. I think WW has realized she’s not going to win that one.

Now, to respond to some of the things that have been brought up:

_AD_, UVA: Yes, I am documenting everything that’s going on between WW and myself, and all the things I do with the children. I’ve told WW not to mess with my computer, because it serves no purpose: backup copies of applications and data files related to this sordid mess exist in 2 locations where she absolutely has no access. I would lose one day of notes at the most if WW did decide to mess with my computer. My logbook is not at home.

Grownup, JL: Regarding the weight loss surgery. Yes, it’s actually fairly well documented that there is a big chance that the weight loss resulting from bariatric surgery will result in relationship / marital problems. If I remember correctly, it happens to about 65% of all patients. I’ll see if I can dig out the article.

I’ve brought up the surgery with WW. I asked her: “Did you meet OM before or after your weight loss” Answ: After. Me: “Do you think he would have even looked at you when you were heavy?” No answer to that one.

Last but not least: Brownhair: You figured out what “Verloren” actually means. No, I’m not from the same country you are, but we do speak the same language. And in my younger days, as a college student, I actually did have the privilege to live in your country for 2 years. I had a blast and certainly learned to respect the local beer…

I’ve noticed I’m officially a “member” of this board now, instead of a “junior member.” I guess it’s progress. I’ve certainly learned a lot from all of you and I appreciate your feedback. Keep it coming if you can.

V

Welcome, "member"!

Latest update for you all:

Past weekend wasn’t all that good. On Saturday, I tried to be nice to the WW, but I allowed myself to be sucked into a nasty discussion. Should have just walked away. WW wanted to talk about the "compromise" that she wants to reach.

I basically told her that my I’m not interested in having the children go to Puerto Rico, not even for a visit, and I want to prevent them from meeting OM, if I can. (There is no way I can stop WW from bringing OM over here for a visit.) She then accused me of not acting in good faith. Nasty discussion about our situation in general followed. Not good. Too many LBs.

She said she can't appreciate anything nice I'm doing right now because she feels it's not genuine, not real, and that I'm trying to bribe her. I answered that I can be nice to her with regards to any aspect that doesn't deal with her adultery and the children. As far as the adultery and the children are concerned, I can't approve of it or be nice about it. She doesn't understand this “split” in my behavior and calls it schizophrenic.

Sunday afternoon was more of the same. I have to learn just to walk away from these arguments.

Any insights are appreciated. BTW, I did make an appointment with Dr. Harley.

V

Appt. with Dr. H ......GREAT!! Try, as hard as you can not to get sucked into talking about the A or your R. Let everything just happen, still keeping some boundaries in place, but learning how to maintain them without LB'ing.

MWIL

It's good to hear from you verloren.

I don't have any new suggestions. I know it's hard to avoid those situations. I sometimes found that I just had to leave the house. Usually, the key point is to avoid defensiveness. She's probably telling you all they is wrong with you and everything you do. Just listen. Don't respond. Don't defend. Don't counterattack. You can't win that way. It's hard, but if you go through some scenarios in your head - in advance - you can have a rehearsed response. Just imagine for yourself one of those kind of conversations - and imagine yourself keeping quiet. I have found that a conversation can explode in an instant, but when I go back through it in my mind, the trigger point was when I tried to defend myself - especially by a counterattack.

I actually, after a long time (years) thinking about it, don't recommend Orchid's "reverse babble" technique. When your WW says something, don't try to pretend that it means something other than what you know it means. You need to speak with crystal clarity and calm.

I think it is fine to say "as soon as you have ended your affair, we can do this or that." But, stay calm. Don't allow yourself to be baited - and if you just can't take it, walk away.

-AD

This seems to be pretty much "fog" text book stuff.
You're doing just fine - do try avoiding the LB's.
They're just "olie op het vuur" (oil on the fire) for any WW's foggy thinking, giving her reasons to think OM is better than you are, because he'll side with her (of course) until it's no longer convenient for him.

I'm starting to get the same feeling I had about Bob Pure's WW at some point.. that she's heading for a crash.
Are you ready for her when that happens?
Brace yourself for yucky withdrawl fog from missing OM when it happens.

BTW yes, that Belgian beer.. world famous!

MWIL, _ADL_, brownhair

Thanks for your reactions, all. WW is coming back from Puerto Rico today to spend the weekend at home. Note to self: No LBs, do not allow her to suck you into a discussion if my reaction will result in LBing.

Had a telephone counseling session with Dr. H. earlier this week. Based on his feedback, I'm beginning to finalize my plan for moving forward.

Will report back after the weekend. Thanks for your support everyone.

V

Great! I'm looking forward to hearing your report.

-AD

Verloren,

How did the weekend go?

JL

_AD_, JL

Thanks for remaining interested in my story. Am at work right now, so I can't really take too much time (and can't post from home tonight either), but I think the weekend went fairly well. Not too much talking, but no arguments either.

On Sunday afternoon, we went out with a few members of our dance group. Asked the WW to dance with me half a dozen times or so, and every time she said yes. I enjoyed myself, and WW seemed to enjoy herself, too.

Will get into more detail tomorrow night or so, when I have more time to post.

Thanks everyone,

V

Wow!

I have a good feeling about this...

Maybe strange thing to suggest, but did you look into her eyes?

You are earning some respect now. Soon, when you look, you will see not hate, but respect in those eyes - and then something else maybe.

-AD

_AD_,

Thanks for your reaction. Yes, Sunday was a good day. It was a glorious day, weatherwise.. Sunny, low 80s, low humidity, nice breeze, a perfect day to go to a dance event, sit on a picnic bench w/ some friends and family, have a drink, eat some food, and enjoy life.

As I said, during the afternoon I asked WW to dance with me a number of times. Each time she accepted. Now, you have to realize that the dancing that we and our dance group do is Central European style dancing, where you actually have to hold your partner. The dances we do are Viennese waltzes, polkas, Rheinländers, ländlers, etc. With all of these dances you spin so fast that you actually have to hold on to your partner in order not to lose your balance. It's a lot of fun.

It's also one of the only things the WW and I still seem to have in common. And it comes with tons and tons of memories for both of us. It was at one of these events, 24 years ago, that WW and I met and fell in lowe. We've been attending these events ever since we were married.

We took DD9 to her first event when she was only 6 weeks old. DD9 has been a member of the children's dance group since she could she learned to walk. DD9 also does ballet and jazz dancing, and with all of this practice, she has become an excellent dancer herself. She is such a good dancer that people at the picnic benches actually stop talking or eating or whatever they're doing and watch her dance.

Anyway, I enjoyed myself, and WW seemed to enjoy herself, too. We danced, we mingled with people from other dance groups, and a good time was had by all. I didn't look in her eyes while we were dancing, but I figure there must be some feelings there or she would not dance with me.

After driving home, we went to bed. I thanked WW for dancing with me. She replied: "Thank you for asking me."

WW left for Puerto Rico on Monday morning. DDs are staying with their Aunt. WW and I have both called DDs, but WW and I have not spoken since. Not sure what to think of this. I guess the fog is still strong.

On Monday evening, I attending the monthly meeting of our dance group. WW's request for a leave of absence was approved. Since WW won't be able to make any rehearsals this year, she won't meet the the minimum attendance requirements, so officially she won't be allowed to dance with the group.

However, I requested that an exception be granted: If WW is willing to come to a dance event during the upcoming dance season (end of Aug thru end of Oct), would I be allowed to take her out on the floor with the group at least once per event, even though officially she not allowed to dance? This exception was also approved.

This made me very happy. As I said above, the dancing is one of the few things WW and I currently have in common. But I intend to use this to my advantage during the upcoming dance season.

We'll see what happens.

V.

verloren,

How's it going?

-AD

Still here.. Haven't been able to post for awhile. Last week, DDs were on vacation with their Aunt. WW and I picked them up over the weekend. WW left to go to Puerto Rico on Monday Aug 14, while I took my DDs on a mini-vacation to Lake ****.

Just got back. Am doing mundane things like laundry right now. Will try to post more later tonight or tomorrow.

V

Thanks for the update.

Do you know anything about the situation with OM?

-AD

_AD_

My apologies for the delay with my update. Was on a mini-vacation with my DDs last week while WW went to Puerto Rico. Just got caught up with the laundry, groceries, mail and bills.

Last weekend (Aug 12/13), WW and I picked up the girls from their Aunt, where they had been staying for a week.
When we got home, we got talking about the compromise she wants to reach. Ultimately it turned into a huge fight. I don't want the girls to meet OM in any way shape or form, because I think it’s bad for the girls. WW does not want to agree with this, saying that she needs this from a child counselor before she will accept it from me.

Don't know how or why it happened, but I angrier with her than at any time during this whole Puerto Rico ordeal. Did not hit her or touch her but got right in her face.

The thing is, it would be much easier all the way around if I felt the same way about her as she feels about me. But I don't. Tried to explain to her that I still love her and could very easily fall in love with her again. We argued for quite a while.

At the end of the argument I explained to her about the MarriageBuilders books that I've been reading. His Needs, Her Needs explains how each person has emotional needs that need to be met. If this person's partner does not meet his/her emotional needs, the risk for an affair is huge. People don't go out with the idea to have an affair, but if they meet a person who meets the emotional needs that his/her partner doesn't meet, it's very easy to end up in an affair.

WW started crying when she heard all of this. Obviously I had hit a nerve.

Next thing I talked about was the need for me to change. WW said that a change just to accommodate her just wouldn't be real. I talked about trying to find out what her emotional needs are and then trying to meet them, and providing a safe, inviting place to come home to. Also mentioned Love Busters and how I'm guilty of all 5 of them, and the need for me to get them under control.

She was obviously surprised that I still want her. Yes, but I told her that I can't do it by myself. Currently there are 3 persons in our marriage, and until there are 2 again, there is no chance of recovery. She has to want to recover too. Even if there is no 3rd person, if WW doesn't want to recover, it will not happen. Explained to her that the MarriageBuilders process works both ways. I have emotional needs too that my partner needs to meet, and she has love busters too that deplete the love bank.

When we went to bed, I explained that I want to become a better person, if not for her, then for myself. Also explained that I had filled out the woman's love busters questionnaire, pretending to be her. I asked her to please go over it and make sure I got things correct. She said she would do so. She said something very significant, something also mentioned in Dr. Harley's books. "Remember how I told you I never smoked pot or did any other drugs, because I'm the type of person who could very easily get addicted? My relationship w/ OM is like that: it's very addictive. I explained to her that I am very well aware of that...

The day after, WW went to Puerto Rico again, and DDs and I went on our mini-vacation. WW came back on Friday Aug 18.

The weekend of Aug 19 was somewhat better than the weekend of Aug 13. WW still wants to compromise. I am still against the girls meeting OM in any way, shape or form.

WW upset. Feels she is being treated like a criminal. She repeated again that if I had ever said "No" to her, she would not have taken the children to Puerto Rico and that she would have tried to reach a compromise without getting the court involved… I explained to her that, based on previous experiences, I could only believe that my "No" would have resulted in her laughing in my face.

WW still wants DDs to meet OM, even though DD9s counselor has said she is not ready for that at this point. Based on how WW describes the counseling for DD9, ("nice racket to be in"), I have no reason to believe that she would agree to defer to the counselor’s judgment.

Also expressed my surprise about the tone of her letters regarding the "compromise". Told her that she is in no position to make any demands at this point. She called me deceitful. I told her that "deceitful" is NOT a word SHE should be using at this point.

Talked a little more when we got home. I think I finally found a way to express my feelings regarding negotiations in the past. I don't feel she ever considered me an equal partner when we negotiated about work and moving. I feel she never took my concerns seriously and tried to minimize them at any opportunity. I feel she automatically assumed that I would go along with anything that she wanted. Look at the way she handled this whole Puerto Rico mess. I told her I resented not being taken seriously. Her reply was that it all made a lot more sense, now that I expressed it like this rather than getting upset. She also said she was sorry.

I also mentioned her attitude about career, and how her career seems to come before her family. She then said that this wasn't true, and how she reduced travel in the past. "I would have traveled a lot more if I didn't care about my family. Management did ask me, and I actually turned them down quite a few times." I then explained to her that this is the first time ever that I have become aware of her reducing her travel. Asked her why she never told me before. It would have changed my attitude completely...

Left it at that. She left again to go to Puerto Rico this morning. Relationship with OM is still ongoing. However WW has admitted she misses the children terribly and traveling is taken a heavy toll on her….

V

Good!!! My friend, you can start to see her crack!!! Admitting she misses the children, suprised by your reading....these are good! Just keep the LB's down!!
MWIL

Ver,

You are doing great. Please note that your WW has brought nothing new to the negotiation. She just reiterates what she wants, which is contrary to your well-being and that of your children. Do not give an inch on this. She is just trying to wear you out by constantly making the same demand while bringing absolutely nothing new to the discussion.

The only thing I would add is that you are really wasting your time by reasoning with your WW at this point. For the most part, she won’t accept your conclusions even when she may agree with your reasoning, which would be a feat in itself. Your goals and hers are contrary to one another, so don’t expect to make any headway. You are truly wasting your time when you engage in those kinds of conversations with WW.

In any event, you are doing well. Do not let time and your WW’s constant nagging undermine your resolve to PROTECT your CHILDREN and yourself.

Verloren,

Ok, you have been give great advice, but just in case permit me to frame this differently. Negotiations implies that each party has what the other wants, so the only thing to discuss is what is it going to cost in money, effort, whatever.

In this case, your W has NOTHING you want with regard to the kids seeing the OM. There is NO win for the kids and there is no win for you. The only person who wins is your W and her conscience. This is not a negotiation, it is just harrassment being used to beat you into submission.

Don't fall for it, and don't "negotiate" with her. While in the fog, there is nothing she has to offer you want. You just stand back, express that you fully UNDERSTAND what she wants and then stop there. There is nothing to negotiate.

You are doing well, and keep working on yourself. No matter how this turns out YOU will be a better man, father, and husband for having worked on yourself. In short, you are doing these changes for yourself, and that may continue to be the case.

God Bless,

JL

Verloren,

I don't have anything new to suggest. Just stay the course, and maintain the initiative. You're doing well.

-AD

Hello all,

My apologies for not posting sooner. Have been very busy around the house lately. I did want to give just a quick update on my situation.

In reality, not much has changed since two weeks or so. Last weekend, WW and danced at one of the events that our dance club attends annually. I had fun, and it seems like she enjoyed herself, too. She looked absolutely fabulous in her costume. I noticed her talking to the leader of our dance group. In the past, she thought that the idea for the restraining order came from him (this is not true). When I gently asked about her discussion she said that "things are straightened out." A lot of the club members hadn't seen WW in quite a while. Although everyone knows about the situation between WW and myself, they were very nice to her and gave her a nice welcome, which she seemed to appreciate a lot.

Other than this, not much to report. I am finding out the true meaning of a lot of advice given on this web page. Reading the advice is one thing, truly understanding its meaning is another: I guess I am really starting to understand that Plan A is as much about myself as it is about WW, maybe even more so. This has been a true revelation and has forced me to do a lot of self-reflection.

We'll see how it goes this holiday weekend.

V

Hello Verloren,

sorry if this has already been brought up & dealt with..
Are you being realistic about STD's in this context?
Or is there simply no SF right now so that this is not an issue (it might be later on, though) ?

Brownhair,

SF is not happening right now. If/when it looks it might happen again, I will bring up the issue of STDs.

V

If you haven't already, I think it would be a good idea to get tested yourself now (for the pre-discovery period).

Hello all,

Haven't had the opportunity to post in a while. I did want to update you on my situation though.

WW still traveling weekly to Puerto Rico, even though it's getting harder and harder for her to leave the children behind. I'm still taking care of the children during the week. Affair between WW and OM still ongoing, although WW not happy with her current life either. I'm trying to do Plan A during the weekends when WW is home. Don't know how long I should maintain this before switching to Plan B. Am afraid I didn't do too well with the Plan A this weekend. Felt that I had to maintain clear bounderies re the affair, though.

WW came home from Puerto Rico last Friday. On the way home, she stopped at the mall and bought a dress that she wants to wear when she and the OM are going to attend Xxx's wedding in Puerto Rico. She paid for the dress out of our joint account.

Xxx is not just any person. Xxx is an old family friend, who suggested to WW in 1991 that she contact me again after an earlier breakup. Xxx now also lives in Puerto Rico, but he doesn't work for the same company WW and I do.

Xxx is mainly responsible for WW and me getting together. Xxx was a guest when WW and I got married. He did one of the readings during our service. Now WW is going to attend his wedding w/ my replacement [grrrr])


Guess who IS NOT invited to come to this wedding?? Got upset just seeing the dress hanging on it's hanger, off our bedroom door. Took the dress and put in WW's suitcase. Told her to take it out of my sight. If I don't have the "benefit" of seeing her in the dress, I don't want to see it at all. Also demanded that write me a check from her Father's estate account (she's the only person w/ access to this account) to cover the dress. Her check to be deposited to our joint accounts as reimbursement for the check she wrote on Friday

She told me she has no place to hang it in Puerto Rico. Told her this is not my problem. It's insulting enough for her to take the OM to Xxx's wedding, instead of me. I wouldn't have cared if it had been the wedding of a friend of the OM or another Puerto Rico friend of WW's. But Xxx's wedding, no less. What an insult...

And then WW expects to pay for the dress out of our joint accounts (even though she claims she always intended to pay for it from her Father's estate account. She says she simply took out the wrong checkbook and didn't notice it until it was too late. I don't know what to believe. She keeps doing this stupid, insensitive stuff over and over again).

Next, she wants to hang the dress off our bedroom door, for me to look at until she takes it to go to Xxx's wedding. Give me a break!!!

I don't know what the issue is. Does she do this kind of stuff on purpose? She says she doesn't do anything with the particular pupose of hurting me. Does she not care? Or is she just not aware, totally oblivious?

Or am I just too sensitive and sentimental?

All of this, of course, caused some major LBs from my end. I find it very difficult to do the Plan A with this kind of stuff going on. Should I maintain more of a distance? I think I might have to keep more of a distance simply to prevent myself from getting hurt over and over again. And where does "maintaining clear bounderies about the afair" end and me becoming too sensitive (if so) begin?

Confused,

V.

V,

If you are having a hard time not LB'ing, then it is getting time for Plan B. Can you obtain a legal separation in your state? If so consider it, with her having to move out of the home. See your lawyer to determine what your options are.

So far there are no consequences for her actions, but I think that if she continues to be this insensitive and continues the affair in the face of Plan A, then it is time for Plan B. Seek legal advice, and start the wheels in motion.

God Bless,

JL

JL, thanks for your reaction.

Yes, I am LBing, and the reason for it is that WW's acts are insensitive and insulting. She says she doesn't come home with the purpose of hurting me. It just seems to happen. It is only after I explain to her why things are insensitive and insulting that she understands. And at those times, she typically agrees w/ me that her actions are indeed hurtful. Take the whole episode w/ the dress described in my post above. Only after I explained it to her did she seem to understand that it was rude.

However, I realize that, while WW's actions are insensitive and insulting, I am probably reacting stronger than is good for either one of us. Why are my reactions so strong? Why do I overreact? Don't really know. I guess I'm still grieving, still trying to come to grips with the situation. Do I accept it? No. If I did, I would be divorced, rather than posting on this web board.

When WW comes home for the weekends, for the children's sake, we try to have as much of a family life as possible. We talk normally, act normally, go grocery shopping or whatever, have dinner together, etc. I guess WW and I are doing a reasonable job, execpt for the occasional insensitve act on her side. But looking at us from the outside, you wouldn't know that anything was amiss.

But fact is, when WW is in Puerto Rico, I miss her terribly, and when she comes home for the weekends, I'm drawn to her like a moth to a candle. I have to be careful not to "hover over her" (my words). I miss the closeness that we used to have, the fun of being around each other. I am still very much attracted to her. She makes my blood boil without realizing it, just by the way she moves. However, no SF at this time. I haven't asked for it, and she is not willing to meet this need at this point. She doesn't need it from me, either. For her, currently that need is being met somewhere else by somebody else.

JL, your suggestion to go to Plan B is appreciated. I will talk to my atty find out what can be done, and if anything, when. In the mean time, do you or anyone who is reading this have any advice on how I can start to emotionally detach from WW? I'm sure you've felt the same way I'm feeling now. How did you handle this? I don't want to totally detach from her, just enough so that I don't get hurt all over again if/when she does something insulting or insensitive. Yes, I'm reading, yes, I have started an old hobby again (model kits), yes, I'm working out, but all of this doesn't seem to be enough.

Your feedback is appreciated

V.

Dear Verloren,

I think JL is right, it might be time for plan B.
Being less exposed to your WW's foggy thinking will help you emotionally detach from your WW.
And it will make it even harder for her to continue this phantasy when she realises what she's going to lose.

For what it's worth - I don't think your WW does these things on purpose (leaving the dress hanging from your bedroom door etc), I think she's trying to act "normal".
I guess that's the only way she can shut her consciousness (geweten) out.

I think she's pretty lucky to have a H like you.
I hope she'll realise that soon.

How are your kids taking the situation?
Do they know about the A?
(I forgot how old they are)

V,

Not much time to talk today. I think your feelings and reactions are normal for a man that loves a woman that is hurting him. I also agree with BrownHair that she probably doesn't realize many things because she is in the "fog". I mean she thinks it is perfectly alright to have an affair right in your face, and still come home and live with you during the weekends. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? (He asks knowing full well you do.)

I really think that she probably needs to move out and live elsewhere when she comes home. I don't mean this instant but very soon, OR you will lose all love for her and the marriage will be over.

See the lawyer first and foremost. Then start making some plans. I would strongly encourage you to seek some guidance and coaching from one of the Harley's. They are the pro's and while it costs money, it is not nearly what a divorce costs.

God Bless,

JL

V.

You asked how I handled things in your situation. I have not been in your situation since I was married 30 something years ago. You see I came here for other reasons many years ago. I wanted you to know this, because I did not want to mislead you in anyway.

What you hear from me is based on years of reading here. Some personal experience before I was actually married, and the experiences of many friends and acquaintances over a lot of years. But, not what you are going through.

Just want to make sure you understood that.

God Bless,

JL

Browhair, JL, thanks for your reactions.

This past weekend was much better than most other weekends since D-Day. I kept more of a distance and managed not to "hover" over her (my words). Interactions between WW and myself were light and pleasant, and she did not anthing that I found insulting or hurtful.

Did talk R a little bit at the end of Sunday, but kept it light. Did explain to WW that I still have somewhat of a hard time figuring out exactly how to behave w/ her. I don't want to come across as too clingy, so I give her time and space to be by herelf and with the chldren. OTOH, I don't want to come across as not being interested at all, as withdrawn.

It's hard to figure out exactly what to do. I think I did a good job this weekend, though

If I can have a couple more weekends like last week, I would like to keep the Plan A going for awhile, maybe until Christmas or so. Remember, WW is only at home 2 days a week. It's not like she's here all the time. So I figure, if things go OK, I might continue with Plan A a little longer than I might otherwise do, to make up for "lost time," so to speak. Does this make any sense? What do people think?

As far as our DDs are concerned, they both know what's going on. DD9 is actually in counseling, and she seems to be doing OK now (for a while, she wasn't) DD4, while not in counseling, also seems to know what's going on. A couple of weeks ago, when I was giving her a bath, I told her: I love DD4, I love DD9 and I love Mommy." Reply from DD4: "But Mommy doesn't love you anymore." Out of the mouth of babes....

I think I will make another appointment w/ Dr. Harley in a couple of weeks.

As far as a full plan B is concerned, this may be hard because of custody concerns. Will have to get some more detailed information about this.

Any feedback appreciated.

V

Hello Verloren,

I'm glad to hear your weekend wasn't too hard on you this time.
This A-stuff is hard, and you'll need all your strength and wit.

I would ask Dr Harley about the time frame for plan A/B in your case.

The way I see it, I think you should be careful not to stretch your love for your wife too thin - a very long plan A could wear you out and make you indifferent, simply because it's natural to protect yourself from pain.

Also I wouldn't let WW get the impression that you are OK with the A-situation.
Again - ask Dr Harley about this.
I have never had to do a plan A to stop the A, so I have no pratical experience with no R-talk and yet getting the message across that you are NOT OK with the A.

Hello everyone. Just thought I would give everyone an update on my situation. WW was home from Puerto Rico from Tuesday night (Sep 26) through yesterday (Oct 1) Five whole days together. More than we’ve had in months.

I guess it went OK. No love busting or disrespectful judgments from my side, even though it was hard to keep my mouth shut at times

Got hold of WWs journal over the weekend. Yes, I read it and photocopied it. If she’s dumb enough to leave her open briefcase containing her journal on the couch for 5 days, she doesn’t deserve any better.
Of course, she doesn’t know that I have her notes, and I’m not going to tell her.

The journal was quite revealing, though. Remember how she was going to attend a wedding on Sat Sep 23? Why would she not fly back on Sep 24? The reason is that OM’s birthday (47) was on Sept 26, and she wanted to be with him. What’s more, on his birhday, OM had to fly to the US mainlaind to attend a meeting at WWs and mine “home site” on Wed, Sep 27 and Thu, Sep 28. As part of WW’s birthday gift to OM, they flew from San Juan into XXX together, and she used our (meaning WW’s and mine) airmiles to upgrade OM’s ticket from coach to business class. They sat next to each other. (Oh how sweet) I am not sure, but it might be interesting to find out what a lawyer would think about WW giving our assets to OM without my permission.

It also explains why it took her three and a half hours to drive home from XXX airport instead of the usual two and a half hours: she had to drop him off at his hotel....

The thought of OM having ridden in our van just makes me sick. Not much I can do about it, though. Don't know if they met at our home site on Wed, Sep 27 and Thu, Sep 28. Probably not, since I'm in the same building as WW is, and the risk of meeting would have been too great. I know many people on site: I think I would have gotten word if they had met.

Also found out that WW is currently very much in love with the OM. She comments on how well they complement each other, in many areas: education, careers, culture etc. Its' as if they are made for each other. Very deep in the fog.

However, she does miss the girls very much and is seriously starting to doubt whether staying in Puerto Rico through a weekend is worth the sadness that comes from missing the girls. However, right now she seems to be looking for a way for her to be together with the OM and have DDs: "When all is finished between V and myself, I hope to find a way where I can be w/ OM and have the girls. I know he loves them very much, even though he has not met them yet."

Even though I kind of knew all of this, actually having it confirmed is still quite a shock. I'm not sure what to do, just keep doing, what I'm doing, I guess: no love busting, no fighting, and meeting ENs where I can. Any comments or suggestions?

Also during this week, I once again found out that WW has no financial self discipline. Remember that I asked her to pay me back from her Father’s Estate account for the dress that she bought to go to the wedding in Puerto Rico? Well, it bounced…And not only did she bounce a check to me, she also bounced a check to a shoe store. She can’t even take the time to update her records and balance her checkbook.

Now she has asked me to bail her out by paying the shoe store but also by giving her money to bring her own account back into the black. This gave me the opportunity to plant a little seed about OM’s cheapness: “Have you considered asking OM for money?”

Haven’t decided yet what I’m going to do. On the one hand I don’t want to shield her from the consequences of her adultery, but on the other hand I don’t want her (or my) credit rating to go down the drain. I’ll probably bail her out, then get a move on with separating our finances. Any comments?


Didn’t have any R talk other than on Sunday, Oct 1. On the drive up to one of the performances for our dance group, we talked R a little bit. Told her that I'm done agonizing over what's she doing because I have no control over her whatsoever. Told her the only thing I can control is myself, and I'm trying to become a better person through all of this. Whatever the outcome of all of this, I'm sure I will be OK. I am just focusing on myself and the girls right now.

Because WW mentions often how much support she is getting from all of her friends in Puerto Rico, I asked how often she actually gets to go out. She explains that she doesn't go out that often because she has long work ours. I then pointed out that the only reason she can go out during the week is because she doesn't have our children around. I don't get to go out much either. I told her that I would be happy to go out with her over the weekends that she's here, but right now she has withdrawn from me and simply won’t accept my invitations. "But they come with strings attached" she said. My answer: "Right now I don't have any expectations. I'm just trying to make it through a weekend without getting hurt and without fighting w/ you. If you accept my invitations, great, if not next time better." All of this was said in normal conversation w/o either of us getting upset.

Danced a couple of times w/ WW during our dance performances. Also danced with her a couple of times just because. She said "yes" every time I asked her, and she seemed to enjoy. DD10 did get to see Mommy and Daddy dance, and she seemed very happy. WW commented how the two of us dancing would give DD10 the impression that everything was OK between us. I told WW: “But that’s exactly what DD10 wants; for everything to be OK between us.”

When we were at the dance job, WW flirted with the guys from the band. Don't know if this was her flirty self or if she did it to get at me. I didn't get upset with it, though.

On the way back from the dance job, we talked a little bit of R again. Told her that she should not expect me to make it easy on her if she files for divorce: my objective is to reconcile, not to divorce. I took a line that I've seen on the MB website: Talk to me if you want to talk reconciliation; talk to my lawyer if you want to talk divorce.

Again took ownership of my behavior that contributed to her getting into her affair. I must have phrased it pretty well because she seemed impressed.

Again all of this was said in a normal conversation. No fights. I feel pretty proud about that.

Gave WW the love busters questionnaire that I had filled out before, pretending to be her. Asked her to double-check it to make sure I got it right. She said she would do so.

Gave WW a back rub / back scratch before we went to sleep. She seemed to enjoy it. The 5 days together ended on a good note, I think.

So, here it is… How am I doing? Any advise on how to break through the fog?… Any feedback appreciated.

V

Bump

Brownhair, JustLearning, others,

If at all possible, would you be able to provide some advice on how to break through WW's fog?

Any advice appreciated.

V

Very good! Sorry you had to read the stuff you did, and then pull off Plan A'ing!! Hard stuff!!

I'm sorry to say that your WW may need a major crisis or the attempt at OM to meet 100% of her EN's. And remember, he is at a disadvantage due to the crappy foundation that their R is based on. My FWW and her OM's fragile foundation and his LB'ing like crazy, made my FWW turn tail quickly, and reinvest in our (now wonderful) marriage.

Your story is so familar to me...just 1 short year ago!! Hang in there!!!
MWIL

Hello Verloren,

I can read in your last posts that you are beginning to get more and more frustrated - am I right?
And if you are - it's no wonder.
You have been putting up with A LOT.

There is a time limit to plan A..
3 months for a WW...
It's been 4 months now...
Given the fact that you don't see your WW all the time, it could be a bit longer than 3 months in your case.
Depends on how your "heart" will hold out.

I would take serious steps planning plan B (not implementing yet), securing your finances, talking to your lawyer etc., in order words, be totally prepared to go to plan B emotionally and practically if it should come to that.

I don't know what Dr Harley or Just Learning think about this, but in my opinion your WW is pretty much getting used to the situation and might keep it up for the whole year.

Your situation and your WW's is quite unique.
She can "part-time" you both, getting the advantages of fun with the girls on the weekend, feeling semi-responsible.
And she's free to see OM all she wants and "play house" with him during the week !

Most WW's have a lot more trouble seeing their OM because they are living at home with their BH, who will be on his guard, even if he's in plan A - he will NOT plan A the affair !!

Your WW might be able to continue this fog stuff all year..
Can you ?

Prepare for plan B;
don't talk about it;
be fully prepared.
It might be the jolt your WW need to come out of the fog.

Just my 2 cents, dear Verloren.
And I do think you need a cyber hug by now !
(((((((Verloren))))))

Hi Verloren,

Just a thought, I think you should have flowers delivered to her place of residence in Puerto Rico. On the tag you should say: "WE NEED YOU" signed: LOVE,YOUR FAMILY.

She clearly does not deserve the flowers however, it may shed some guilt upon what she is doing. It may also make the OM realize there is a family at home that loves, needs and misses her. She will feel "ROTTEN" every time she looks at the flowers.

I dont think it will hurt to try it.

Tu2

MWIL, Brownhair, Torn_up2

I appreciate your feedback. I will be posting my "log" from this past weekend shortly. I will respond to your input at that time.

Thanks,

V

Hello all.

My apologies for the delay in posting all of this. It is not easy to find time to write and post with a full-time job and 2 girls to take care of at home. Below are my notes for the last two weekends that WW was home.

When she came home from Puerto Rico on Oct 6 WW was wearing a new ring on her left hand, where her wedding band used to be. I asked her where it came from. She said she bought it. She says the sparklers are zirconium.

I'm not sure if I believe her, both about her buying it (vs receiving it as a gift) and about the sparklers being zirconium. I've never known her to wear anything else but the real “rocks”. Didn't say any more about it. The next day, DD10 noticed Mommy was wearing a new ring. She asked her where she got it. Mommy gave DD10 the same answer as she gave me...

The weekend of Oct 7/8 was our second weekend w/ our dance group at xxx,. On Sat, WW was very flirtatious with the band members. She was all over them. Don't know if she did this to get at me. It's hard to say at this point. May not have been any “worse” than in years past. I just notice it more. Didn't say anything about it, though.. However, she did dance w/ me every time I asked her, and seemed to be enjoying herself.

She and I did talk with the horn player from the band. He started talking about how important family and friends are, and how you should do everything possible to keep your family together.

This conversation made WW visibly uncomfortable. She said out to me: "But we're just not like that anymore." I responded with: "I'm just translating what the guy is saying. I'm not making up any of his words."

Stayed overnight at a local motel. On the way to the motel we drove past the campground where WW and I first met in 1982. She pointed it out to the girls, then added to me: "But we are sooo far from where we were then." I didn't respond to this.

More dancing with our dance group on Sun, Oct 8. In general, we had a good time.

Called DD10's counselor during the week of Oct 9 to make an appointment for her. Found out that WW had called her in Sep to ask her if it was OK for the girls to meet OM when he was at our home site (see post above). The counselor had told her no. DD10 is not ready for it. Judy had some pretty scathing things to say about WW: "She doesn't get it" and is "oblivious to DD10's emotional needs." "Thinks only of her own needs and wants. Totally selfish." Currently, this seems to be par for the course.

I'll stick this one in the record, for me to use if the WW files for divorce. I'm sure a statement like this will carry some weight if custody has to be decided.

This past weekend, (Oct 14/15) WW insisted on moving the spare bed from the basement into the master bedroom. Net result is two beds in the mater bedroom. I sleep in what used to be our marital bed, WW sleeps in the spare bed.

Talked a little bit of R on Sun evening. Went over the love busters questionnaire that I had filled out, pretending to be her, and that she had double-checked. She really seemed to resist having to go over this. To me it looked as if she wanted to pick a fight. I managed to avoid it. However, the LB questionnaire itself may have been a LB. Whatever the case, I found that I had gotten the LB questionnaire approx 90% correct.

We are very much apart on major issues, though. Admitted that I've made some judgment errors when it comes to the girls, but that no harm was done. I countered with WW's judgment errors: Who is doing more damage? She or me? I told her that she is hurting the children and our family every single time she goes to Puerto Rico. Case in point: When WW left for Puerto Rico on Mon morning DD4 cried for Mommy not to go to Puerto Rico and to “please stay with us.”

The last 3 weeks have given me a lot to think about. First of all, it is obvious that WW is still very much in love w/ OM. Currently, she plans to be with him in the future and is looking for a way to have the children too. Don't know if my plan A is having any effect. If it is, WW is not showing it.

Second, I'm starting to realize that the dancing / dance group is as much a part of WW as it is a part of me. Right now, it does no longer seem as if she's planning to give it up. I guess this is a good thing. She has been very much interested in attending our club events this season, and she has also expressed interest in visiting event organized by other dance clubs in November. I guess this is a good thing, and something that I can work with. This ethnic dancing and culture is one thing that we currently still have in common, and I would like to work with that fact to pull her in the right direction w/o forcing her. OM can never be a part of this (not the right heritage and background), and it is something that he cannot use to pry WW and myself apart. On the contrary, it is something I can use to bring WW and myself closer together.

This plan A stuff is very, very difficult. I need to keep more distance from WW, but it is very hard for me to do so. Every time I see her, I am drawn to her... I'm not ready for plan B just yet. Remember, WW only sees me during the weekends, and I haven't been doing the plan A correctly long enough for it to make a lasting impression. However, plan B is on the horizon...

All feedback and advice appreciated.

V

V,

I agree with others nothing is going to change if nothing changes. I would consult an attorney and see about plan B and moving her out. If she plans on being home for Christmas, perhaps she needs to reside elsewhere and "visit" the kids.

Make sure you have all of the angles covered, including the possibility of suing your company for creating a work place that is destroying your family. They clearly know what is going on.

I don't know if your state has legal separation but consider it. You are most likely to obtain custody while she is trapsing around with OM overseas. Continue to plan A, but get ready to lower the boom. Protect your children from her thinking and OM and that starts now.

I don't know what else to tell you right now. This is a very difficult situation and I really think you need the help of a pro like the Harley's.

God Bless,

JL

V,

I am so sorry your having to go through all of this.

I think you should check the financial records to confirm where the ring really came from. If you come up with something fine, if not call her on it. If it were me I would want to know. You may not like what she has to say. It is extremely rude and insensitive for her to "flaunt" that new ring in front of you when she got home. I could only imagine how you were feeling when you first saw it.

That ring may have been on her finger to get you upset and do something "stupid" so that she could take the children. Keep your "cool" she may have more tricks up her sleeve.

I realize your in plan A at this time however, I would be very tempted to make it a point NOT to be there when she comes home to see the kids next weekend. Let her fly home and come home to an empty house. Take the kids somewhere fun for the weekend, or maybe to a relatives. Send her an email stating you all wont be there, but send it a little too late, like after her plane departs or just a few minutes before. If you do decide to do this document the email so she cant use this against you later. You made the effort to stop her from coming home, but you were unclear of the flight time. Others please chime in on this, It is just my opinion.

Another call to your companies Human resourse center may be in order here. Perhaps there is an "angle" you have overlooked.

Hang in there,

Tu2

How are you, Verloren?

Hello Brownhair and others,

I'm still around. Not much has happened in the last month or so. WW is still going to Puerto Rico on a weekly basis, is still very much in love w/ OM. Still hurting our DDs and me. I still have access to her journal, which I read on a regular basis.

Found that WW is basically looking for a life w/ OM and the girls, but w/o me. Also discovered that she has been offered a permanent position in Puerto Rico, which she has refused because she can't take the girls w/ her. She has discussed all of this w/ OM, but basically they haven't been able to come up w/ a "solution."

Their plan right now is for OM to come to the US mainland "in 2 years" and for them to "return to Puerto Rico when the time is right." I guess the idea is for WW to file for divorce after her temporary assigment is up and have OM waiting in the wings. Next, the idea is for WW and OM to live together on the US mainland for a period of time, see if she can get custody of our DDs, then return to Puerto Rico w/ OM and our DDs.

Also discovered that one of my SILs and her husband are planning to visit WW (and OM, I guess) during President's Day weekend in 2007.

Am not particularly looking fwd to the Holidays. Am still in Plan A. WW and I haven't had any fights in the last month, nor have I done any LBing (that I'm aware of). Discussions are cordial, but somewhat forced and strained. I amd still trying to fill WW's ENs, but she is totally non-responsive.

Will arrange a session w/ Dr. H. again. Can't really go into a plan B because of custody issues, but maybe he has some pointers on how to implement a "modified plan B" I have to emotionally withdraw from my wife. I can stay at a friend's house during the weekends, when WW is here, but I can't take DDs with me. They don't want to be away when Mommy is at home. However, I would prefer to be there for them all the time, and not just during week....

Any feedback appreciated.

V

Okay Veloren....It's time to man up for yourself and your children. No more messing around. She is or has made it painfully obvious that she has and wants a new life. She wants everything that she had with you except YOU. She wants the home, the two car garage, financial security, love, stability, THE CHILDREN and everything else but YOU.

Don't sit by any longer without getting your strategy together to protect your finances and your children from a selfish, immature, immoral and fogged out WW. Get an attorney (don't tell her) and start to work. Tell him/her everything about the affair, the WW's plans with the OM, her company's complicity in this, everything....Keep all of this to yourself and continue right on being the man you want to become whether with your WW or someone more deserving. Your WW cannot be trusted to be the point of stability in your children's lives. She wants to introduce them to this cheating, homewrecking OM and pretend that everything is great (no emotional scarring or anything else to worry about). They all want to do this. They want everyone to just be happy for them and understand and get along. The minute you say or do anything that calls them to accounability or goes against what they want to have happen in their little fantasy plan then they spew venom.

Time to man up and let the WW go while you get your strategy together to protect yourself and your children.

Verloren:

Let WW stay at the friends house on the weekends, not you. Quit disrupting your DD lives for her fantasy

She has decided that Puerto Rico is a better place for her, and she only wants weekends with DD. SO let her have that.

She can hang out at the house during the weekend days with DD and after that she leaves to stay at friends?

You need to go to Plan B.

She is wearing the OM Ring for gods sake!

Put her on the street. Of course the holidays are going to be difficult, but that isn't your fault.

And go see the lawyer. And get your ducks in a row.

Give her what she wants.

Ver,

For a smart guy like you it is shame that you choose not to use your brain in this sitch with your WW. You are letting your emotions, namely, fear and hope, dictate what you do.

I know Plan A is good, but I can’t understand how you can live with yourself knowing that you are enabling your WW to go week after week after week to Puerto Rico to SCREW OM. Yes, you are one of the biggest enablers I have seen here. You are afraid to rock the boat, unreasonably thinking that your inactions will snap WW out of her fog.

It is your life and you will have to live with the consequences. But it is one thing not to stand up for yourself and demand to be treated with respect. It is another not to stand up for your CHILDREN. It is sad that the one adult who could protect them is relinquishing his duties to them, all because of fear. Do you think your children will respect you when they find out how you roll over and let WW abuse you, to the point where you KNOW WW and OM plan to screw you over, and you just stay there and watch? Tell me, do you respect yourself? If it were not you, would you respect someone in your position?

Yes, I know, it could be argued that you are doing this for your CHILDREN. But that can’t be true, since you actions create the least possible chance for your marriage to recover. Plan A is good, but at some point, a BS needs to go to Plan B to force WW off the fence. In your case, you have a great chance of recovering your M since WW really loves her children. It is that fact that you can use to your advantage if you MAN UP and start making WW face the legal consequences of her actions. Women do not like men they don’t respect. And, for good reasons, your WW has no respect for you. She can and does walk all over you. She will never return to you if you keep being this way. And the people that will suffer the most for your cowardness will be your children. There are no guarantees, of course, but you and your children deserve the best possible chance of saving the M. Failing that, you and the children deserve to be together. You actions, however, greatly undermine both of these possibilities.

I will repost what JL said to you a few posts up, the same thing applies today as when he said it then. What is clear is that you don’t listen.


Like I said, it is your life. Too bad your CHILDREN have no one to stand up for them. Too bad your children have to be the real victims here. At this point, I must say, you are a volunteer!

It is time to make her choose - the OM or her DDs. This will be the crippling blow to the affair. The longer you let her have her cake and eat it too, the more difficult it will be to end the affair, and the more time she will have to formulate a plan to divorce you, get custody of her DDs, and move back to PR with the OM. You said it yourself that the OM won't move here for another 2 years. Start plan B now, and most affairs don't last 18 months after the start of plan B. Don't give the OM time to move up here. Kill the affair NOW!

- Jim

Dear Verloren,

Maybe it's time to ask yourself what keeps you from moving to plan B.
Are you being practical/tactical by having a longer plan A?
Or is it fear that is making you cling to plan A?
Plan A continued for TOO long makes you a doormat.. it makes people walk all over you without even noticing you're there.

You cannot be perfect.
You don't have to wait for you to being "perfect at plan A".
The idea is to make the WS give a positive impression of you, rather than a negative one (if the BS would give into all the negative feelings the A will naturally create in the heart and mind of the BS).
I think you have done quite enough...
IMHO, I think the next positive thing to show your WW is that you WILL stand up for your family and for your M, even if she will not. That you will face/confront even HER in that regard, and that you will not back down for whimpering/accusations/sudden nastiness.

Of course she won't like it if you will "suddenly" tell her NO, you can't stay in this house until you decide to come back permanently.
Be prepared for whimpering/accusations/threats/silent treatment/running back to PR... be prepared for anything but redelijkheid (what's the English word for that?).

Dear, dear Verloren, please keep posting here.
I hope your meeting with Steve Harley will clarify things a bit.

Veloren what's happened to you?