Verloren,

I will repeat what others are telling you. When you hear
What you are hearing is her "logic" to explain why she is not a cheating, lying, adulteress. She cannot and has not faced that yet. So it must be true it was your fault for the A. No chance of that. If it had not been OM, then it would have been another OM, is her way of saying "I cannot be what I know I am. It must be your fault."

Just smile, tell her you love her. And remind her that YOU had no say in her deciding to cheart and lie. You were not consulted, you were not warned, you had NO ROLE in her choices. You did and accept responsibility for your contributions to the state of the marriage, but the affair...NOPE.

Then just walk off and continue to plan A, and be the best Dad you can be.

God Bless,

JL

Hello all.

Just wanted to give my latest update and to reply to some folks that have responded to my thread but haven’t received an answer from me yet.

Yesterday was again an interesting day. WW was at work (same site as I am) and wanted to pick up the children from camp /daycare. I left her a voicemail message saying that both camp and daycare have received a copy of the restraining order and are now very reluctant to release the children to anyone but me (even though the restraining order doesn’t say anything about WW not being allowed to pick up the children). In my message, I told her to please call me when she leaves so I can call ahead to camp and daycare to inform the staff that it’s OK to release the children to her.

Within 10 minutes she called me back, furious. “Why are you doing this? Why do you keep escalating things? You’re making it hard for me to compromise with you if you keep doing stuff like this.” I explained to her that this is normal for a restraining order involving children, and that even our local PD has received a copy. Also explained that I was doing her a favor by leaving her the voicemail. It would have been a bad situation for both WW and the girls had she arrived at camp / daycare without me calling ahead: the staff would not have released the children to her. She calmed down after this. At home everything was fine. Invited everyone for a bike ride again after dinner, and this time WW accepted. All 4 of us went.

During the days that WW is at home, she wants to drop off / pick up the children and give DD4 a bath every night. I let her. After all, WW is still the girls’ mother. We’ve had no more fights about me moving back into the master bedroom. I think WW has realized she’s not going to win that one.

Now, to respond to some of the things that have been brought up:

_AD_, UVA: Yes, I am documenting everything that’s going on between WW and myself, and all the things I do with the children. I’ve told WW not to mess with my computer, because it serves no purpose: backup copies of applications and data files related to this sordid mess exist in 2 locations where she absolutely has no access. I would lose one day of notes at the most if WW did decide to mess with my computer. My logbook is not at home.

Grownup, JL: Regarding the weight loss surgery. Yes, it’s actually fairly well documented that there is a big chance that the weight loss resulting from bariatric surgery will result in relationship / marital problems. If I remember correctly, it happens to about 65% of all patients. I’ll see if I can dig out the article.

I’ve brought up the surgery with WW. I asked her: “Did you meet OM before or after your weight loss” Answ: After. Me: “Do you think he would have even looked at you when you were heavy?” No answer to that one.

Last but not least: Brownhair: You figured out what “Verloren” actually means. No, I’m not from the same country you are, but we do speak the same language. And in my younger days, as a college student, I actually did have the privilege to live in your country for 2 years. I had a blast and certainly learned to respect the local beer…

I’ve noticed I’m officially a “member” of this board now, instead of a “junior member.” I guess it’s progress. I’ve certainly learned a lot from all of you and I appreciate your feedback. Keep it coming if you can.

V

Welcome, "member"!

Latest update for you all:

Past weekend wasn’t all that good. On Saturday, I tried to be nice to the WW, but I allowed myself to be sucked into a nasty discussion. Should have just walked away. WW wanted to talk about the "compromise" that she wants to reach.

I basically told her that my I’m not interested in having the children go to Puerto Rico, not even for a visit, and I want to prevent them from meeting OM, if I can. (There is no way I can stop WW from bringing OM over here for a visit.) She then accused me of not acting in good faith. Nasty discussion about our situation in general followed. Not good. Too many LBs.

She said she can't appreciate anything nice I'm doing right now because she feels it's not genuine, not real, and that I'm trying to bribe her. I answered that I can be nice to her with regards to any aspect that doesn't deal with her adultery and the children. As far as the adultery and the children are concerned, I can't approve of it or be nice about it. She doesn't understand this “split” in my behavior and calls it schizophrenic.

Sunday afternoon was more of the same. I have to learn just to walk away from these arguments.

Any insights are appreciated. BTW, I did make an appointment with Dr. Harley.

V

Appt. with Dr. H ......GREAT!! Try, as hard as you can not to get sucked into talking about the A or your R. Let everything just happen, still keeping some boundaries in place, but learning how to maintain them without LB'ing.

MWIL

It's good to hear from you verloren.

I don't have any new suggestions. I know it's hard to avoid those situations. I sometimes found that I just had to leave the house. Usually, the key point is to avoid defensiveness. She's probably telling you all they is wrong with you and everything you do. Just listen. Don't respond. Don't defend. Don't counterattack. You can't win that way. It's hard, but if you go through some scenarios in your head - in advance - you can have a rehearsed response. Just imagine for yourself one of those kind of conversations - and imagine yourself keeping quiet. I have found that a conversation can explode in an instant, but when I go back through it in my mind, the trigger point was when I tried to defend myself - especially by a counterattack.

I actually, after a long time (years) thinking about it, don't recommend Orchid's "reverse babble" technique. When your WW says something, don't try to pretend that it means something other than what you know it means. You need to speak with crystal clarity and calm.

I think it is fine to say "as soon as you have ended your affair, we can do this or that." But, stay calm. Don't allow yourself to be baited - and if you just can't take it, walk away.

-AD

This seems to be pretty much "fog" text book stuff.
You're doing just fine - do try avoiding the LB's.
They're just "olie op het vuur" (oil on the fire) for any WW's foggy thinking, giving her reasons to think OM is better than you are, because he'll side with her (of course) until it's no longer convenient for him.

I'm starting to get the same feeling I had about Bob Pure's WW at some point.. that she's heading for a crash.
Are you ready for her when that happens?
Brace yourself for yucky withdrawl fog from missing OM when it happens.

BTW yes, that Belgian beer.. world famous!

MWIL, _ADL_, brownhair

Thanks for your reactions, all. WW is coming back from Puerto Rico today to spend the weekend at home. Note to self: No LBs, do not allow her to suck you into a discussion if my reaction will result in LBing.

Had a telephone counseling session with Dr. H. earlier this week. Based on his feedback, I'm beginning to finalize my plan for moving forward.

Will report back after the weekend. Thanks for your support everyone.

V

Great! I'm looking forward to hearing your report.

-AD

Verloren,

How did the weekend go?

JL

_AD_, JL

Thanks for remaining interested in my story. Am at work right now, so I can't really take too much time (and can't post from home tonight either), but I think the weekend went fairly well. Not too much talking, but no arguments either.

On Sunday afternoon, we went out with a few members of our dance group. Asked the WW to dance with me half a dozen times or so, and every time she said yes. I enjoyed myself, and WW seemed to enjoy herself, too.

Will get into more detail tomorrow night or so, when I have more time to post.

Thanks everyone,

V

Wow!

I have a good feeling about this...

Maybe strange thing to suggest, but did you look into her eyes?

You are earning some respect now. Soon, when you look, you will see not hate, but respect in those eyes - and then something else maybe.

-AD

_AD_,

Thanks for your reaction. Yes, Sunday was a good day. It was a glorious day, weatherwise.. Sunny, low 80s, low humidity, nice breeze, a perfect day to go to a dance event, sit on a picnic bench w/ some friends and family, have a drink, eat some food, and enjoy life.

As I said, during the afternoon I asked WW to dance with me a number of times. Each time she accepted. Now, you have to realize that the dancing that we and our dance group do is Central European style dancing, where you actually have to hold your partner. The dances we do are Viennese waltzes, polkas, Rheinländers, ländlers, etc. With all of these dances you spin so fast that you actually have to hold on to your partner in order not to lose your balance. It's a lot of fun.

It's also one of the only things the WW and I still seem to have in common. And it comes with tons and tons of memories for both of us. It was at one of these events, 24 years ago, that WW and I met and fell in lowe. We've been attending these events ever since we were married.

We took DD9 to her first event when she was only 6 weeks old. DD9 has been a member of the children's dance group since she could she learned to walk. DD9 also does ballet and jazz dancing, and with all of this practice, she has become an excellent dancer herself. She is such a good dancer that people at the picnic benches actually stop talking or eating or whatever they're doing and watch her dance.

Anyway, I enjoyed myself, and WW seemed to enjoy herself, too. We danced, we mingled with people from other dance groups, and a good time was had by all. I didn't look in her eyes while we were dancing, but I figure there must be some feelings there or she would not dance with me.

After driving home, we went to bed. I thanked WW for dancing with me. She replied: "Thank you for asking me."

WW left for Puerto Rico on Monday morning. DDs are staying with their Aunt. WW and I have both called DDs, but WW and I have not spoken since. Not sure what to think of this. I guess the fog is still strong.

On Monday evening, I attending the monthly meeting of our dance group. WW's request for a leave of absence was approved. Since WW won't be able to make any rehearsals this year, she won't meet the the minimum attendance requirements, so officially she won't be allowed to dance with the group.

However, I requested that an exception be granted: If WW is willing to come to a dance event during the upcoming dance season (end of Aug thru end of Oct), would I be allowed to take her out on the floor with the group at least once per event, even though officially she not allowed to dance? This exception was also approved.

This made me very happy. As I said above, the dancing is one of the few things WW and I currently have in common. But I intend to use this to my advantage during the upcoming dance season.

We'll see what happens.

V.

verloren,

How's it going?

-AD

Still here.. Haven't been able to post for awhile. Last week, DDs were on vacation with their Aunt. WW and I picked them up over the weekend. WW left to go to Puerto Rico on Monday Aug 14, while I took my DDs on a mini-vacation to Lake ****.

Just got back. Am doing mundane things like laundry right now. Will try to post more later tonight or tomorrow.

V

Thanks for the update.

Do you know anything about the situation with OM?

-AD

_AD_

My apologies for the delay with my update. Was on a mini-vacation with my DDs last week while WW went to Puerto Rico. Just got caught up with the laundry, groceries, mail and bills.

Last weekend (Aug 12/13), WW and I picked up the girls from their Aunt, where they had been staying for a week.
When we got home, we got talking about the compromise she wants to reach. Ultimately it turned into a huge fight. I don't want the girls to meet OM in any way shape or form, because I think it’s bad for the girls. WW does not want to agree with this, saying that she needs this from a child counselor before she will accept it from me.

Don't know how or why it happened, but I angrier with her than at any time during this whole Puerto Rico ordeal. Did not hit her or touch her but got right in her face.

The thing is, it would be much easier all the way around if I felt the same way about her as she feels about me. But I don't. Tried to explain to her that I still love her and could very easily fall in love with her again. We argued for quite a while.

At the end of the argument I explained to her about the MarriageBuilders books that I've been reading. His Needs, Her Needs explains how each person has emotional needs that need to be met. If this person's partner does not meet his/her emotional needs, the risk for an affair is huge. People don't go out with the idea to have an affair, but if they meet a person who meets the emotional needs that his/her partner doesn't meet, it's very easy to end up in an affair.

WW started crying when she heard all of this. Obviously I had hit a nerve.

Next thing I talked about was the need for me to change. WW said that a change just to accommodate her just wouldn't be real. I talked about trying to find out what her emotional needs are and then trying to meet them, and providing a safe, inviting place to come home to. Also mentioned Love Busters and how I'm guilty of all 5 of them, and the need for me to get them under control.

She was obviously surprised that I still want her. Yes, but I told her that I can't do it by myself. Currently there are 3 persons in our marriage, and until there are 2 again, there is no chance of recovery. She has to want to recover too. Even if there is no 3rd person, if WW doesn't want to recover, it will not happen. Explained to her that the MarriageBuilders process works both ways. I have emotional needs too that my partner needs to meet, and she has love busters too that deplete the love bank.

When we went to bed, I explained that I want to become a better person, if not for her, then for myself. Also explained that I had filled out the woman's love busters questionnaire, pretending to be her. I asked her to please go over it and make sure I got things correct. She said she would do so. She said something very significant, something also mentioned in Dr. Harley's books. "Remember how I told you I never smoked pot or did any other drugs, because I'm the type of person who could very easily get addicted? My relationship w/ OM is like that: it's very addictive. I explained to her that I am very well aware of that...

The day after, WW went to Puerto Rico again, and DDs and I went on our mini-vacation. WW came back on Friday Aug 18.

The weekend of Aug 19 was somewhat better than the weekend of Aug 13. WW still wants to compromise. I am still against the girls meeting OM in any way, shape or form.

WW upset. Feels she is being treated like a criminal. She repeated again that if I had ever said "No" to her, she would not have taken the children to Puerto Rico and that she would have tried to reach a compromise without getting the court involved… I explained to her that, based on previous experiences, I could only believe that my "No" would have resulted in her laughing in my face.

WW still wants DDs to meet OM, even though DD9s counselor has said she is not ready for that at this point. Based on how WW describes the counseling for DD9, ("nice racket to be in"), I have no reason to believe that she would agree to defer to the counselor’s judgment.

Also expressed my surprise about the tone of her letters regarding the "compromise". Told her that she is in no position to make any demands at this point. She called me deceitful. I told her that "deceitful" is NOT a word SHE should be using at this point.

Talked a little more when we got home. I think I finally found a way to express my feelings regarding negotiations in the past. I don't feel she ever considered me an equal partner when we negotiated about work and moving. I feel she never took my concerns seriously and tried to minimize them at any opportunity. I feel she automatically assumed that I would go along with anything that she wanted. Look at the way she handled this whole Puerto Rico mess. I told her I resented not being taken seriously. Her reply was that it all made a lot more sense, now that I expressed it like this rather than getting upset. She also said she was sorry.

I also mentioned her attitude about career, and how her career seems to come before her family. She then said that this wasn't true, and how she reduced travel in the past. "I would have traveled a lot more if I didn't care about my family. Management did ask me, and I actually turned them down quite a few times." I then explained to her that this is the first time ever that I have become aware of her reducing her travel. Asked her why she never told me before. It would have changed my attitude completely...

Left it at that. She left again to go to Puerto Rico this morning. Relationship with OM is still ongoing. However WW has admitted she misses the children terribly and traveling is taken a heavy toll on her….

V

Good!!! My friend, you can start to see her crack!!! Admitting she misses the children, suprised by your reading....these are good! Just keep the LB's down!!
MWIL

Ver,

You are doing great. Please note that your WW has brought nothing new to the negotiation. She just reiterates what she wants, which is contrary to your well-being and that of your children. Do not give an inch on this. She is just trying to wear you out by constantly making the same demand while bringing absolutely nothing new to the discussion.

The only thing I would add is that you are really wasting your time by reasoning with your WW at this point. For the most part, she won’t accept your conclusions even when she may agree with your reasoning, which would be a feat in itself. Your goals and hers are contrary to one another, so don’t expect to make any headway. You are truly wasting your time when you engage in those kinds of conversations with WW.

In any event, you are doing well. Do not let time and your WW’s constant nagging undermine your resolve to PROTECT your CHILDREN and yourself.

Verloren,

Ok, you have been give great advice, but just in case permit me to frame this differently. Negotiations implies that each party has what the other wants, so the only thing to discuss is what is it going to cost in money, effort, whatever.

In this case, your W has NOTHING you want with regard to the kids seeing the OM. There is NO win for the kids and there is no win for you. The only person who wins is your W and her conscience. This is not a negotiation, it is just harrassment being used to beat you into submission.

Don't fall for it, and don't "negotiate" with her. While in the fog, there is nothing she has to offer you want. You just stand back, express that you fully UNDERSTAND what she wants and then stop there. There is nothing to negotiate.

You are doing well, and keep working on yourself. No matter how this turns out YOU will be a better man, father, and husband for having worked on yourself. In short, you are doing these changes for yourself, and that may continue to be the case.

God Bless,

JL