I believe in love as actions, and as a decision, but of course it is feelings too. I've been wondering for a while now about what role love plays in these situations when a spouse betrays another by having an affair. It brings everything into question for me. Like -

- Can a WS really love their spouse and then do this to them?

- Does the love the WS and the BS share ever stand for anything while the A is going on?

- Does love ever play a part in making a WS come back? Here at MB we talk about the OP trying to meet the BS's ENs (and often failing in the long run), and about the BS coming back home from sheer desperation out of not having their ENs met, but is that it at the end of the day? Needs? Does love mean so little at the end of the day?

I'm not after reassurances here - just thoughts and opinions. I've just been genuinely pondering these things, because now that STBX has done the worst he can do to me, I'm left to think on the decades of emotional investment I put into him, and how little they mean now. My love was the most valuable thing I could give, and now that it's been proven worthless (at least to this man), well... it makes a gal think.

I've thought about it a lot. WH and I were together for 15 years, and raised 8 children (his and mine). I thought our marriage was fairly good, considering.

He met OW, and was madly in love with her in a couple of weeks. They are still together.

She left her 12 year old daughter to be with my WH.

I still don't get it. I must have been naive when I used to believe in love.

“What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away……”

Trust in his actions RT.

Believe what they do not what they say.

Say the above sentence every morning when you get up.

Sorry you are having a bad day.

Plank.

Nah, I'm not having a bad day, or trying to work out whether or not they love or don't love the OP. Just wondering where the love that the WS had custody of (before they were actually WSs) goes; what purpose it serves, if any; what part it plays (of any) in their wanting to come back; and whether it was actually there in the first place. Just trying to get some thoughts and a bit of discussion happening.

Believer, do you think THEY believe in love? I mean... surely they can't believe that "love conquers all" when already they've broken up how many times?

No one has anything to say about this? I would have thought lots of people would have been up for a discussion about love.

Hmmm...

Yes, though they are not ACTING lovingly by betraying their spouse. I did love my H while I had my A. No excuses, just I was lonely, wanting affection, affirmation, conversation and I worked with the OM for a long time before I began to pick up on the signals that he was "in love" (gag) with me. I don't think I ever was really in love with OM, I was just high on the feelings of someone wanting and desiring me.

IMHO, not really. I know we had wonderful moments together. I know that even now those moments stand out in my mind as special, but no how could it really stand for anything if the WS heart and mind are elsewhere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> In my case, I came out of the fog on my own. I wanted so badly to make my M work. I in no way could see a life with the OM. I finally convince my H to go to MC with me. We got pregnant with my DS shortly there after. I fell head over heels back in love with my H during that time. But see, I had to WANT to love him. I had to see him clearly.

Hope that helps.

River

i think you have asked excellent questions

i think this is where i'm having so much trouble....i know that my H really loved me....sohow did he do this?

i know that i wasn't meeting his needs and that he was lonely....but why not try talking to me and working out the problems together? That's what you do when you "love" someone isn't it?

or was it that by the time he relized how unhappy he was, he had so few feelings left for me that he didn't want to try?
Had he already stopped loving me before he made the choice to find someone else?

faithful follower

what you said kiinda scares me since i'm reminded that i've read posts from other FWS who also talked about how they never really wanted their marraige to end and couldn't see themselves with the OP

it scares me because i think that my WH wants a whole new life and DOES want the marraige to be over... i believe he thinks that what he did ruined everything between us and there is no going back or foreward.....he told me that everytime he looked into my eyes all he could feel was guilt from the heartbreak and hurt from what he had done (ans was actually still doing although i didn't know it) he said that the only way he could find peace, get away from the guilt and shame, and heal.....would be to start over, away from me (of course he also said that he had to start over "alone" so that he could heal and jokes that he had given up on women for good and the whole time he was already living with OW at the time)

i also think that he could "see a new life" with OW before he decided to leave

It's not Love RiverTam...it's not love they're feeling.

it's those darn chemicals in their brain that when they're in a MATURE LOVING RELATIONSHIP that don't spark on and off as much. it is the chemical reaction of sex basically.

it's neurotransmitters. chemicals.

it's a haze. a chemically induced state and it's short lived. it only lasts and feels this way a few years.

probably why harleys say that affairs have usually a lifespan of about 2 yrs.

the infidels don't get it...they think
HAPPY FEEL GOOD BRAIN CHEMICALS EQUALS TRUE LOVE.

OK now that's more like it!


That's a really important distinction, thanks FF, but one that I haven't been able to make. To me, love has always equalled actions, and nowadays when STBX professes (to other people) to love me, all I can think is "Bull!" I think I've been pretty uncompromising in my belief of what love is, and what you describe is probably closer to the truth. That doesn't mean I'll be espousing mistreating people while professing "love", but I think I'll have to broaden my concept of what love is to include these situations. Because it is almost as if something takes over once the decision to have an A is taken. It's got to run its course regardless of love.


Thanks for confirming this. I appreciate your honesty and insight as a FWS. I suspected as much. It's a bloody hurtful realization, but a necessary one, I think.


This is SO important. "Wanting to love" - it sums it up beautifully. As for STBX seeing me clearly... well, the probability of that at the moment is SO low it might as well be zero.


I hear ya, Eav! And I guess it is what you do what you love someone, unless of course you're a conflict avoider from way back, and one day, something changes (such as, say, a midlife depression). Something SO huge that the only way to avoid the ensuing (internal) conflict is to do something similarly huge, like self-medicating with an OP.


Wow. Put that one right up there with "classics of fogese"! Now hon you KNOW you can't read anything that WSs say for meaning. What he TOLD you doesn't matter. It was just more excuses, and given that he was quite patently lying, the words are even more worthless, if that's possible.


Aaaahhhhh I think we all remember these chemicals! They're common to the start of just about every romantic relationship. So what's made our marriages and relationships last for decades after the "haze" of the chemicals wore off and why don't the As last as long after the haze wears off?


Actually it's funny: STBX has been very careful not to tell me or anyone I'm close to that he "loves" or is "in love" with the OW. I don't know what this means. Maybe his one vestige of consideration for me has stopped him. Maybe he just doesn't love her. Maybe he just forgot to tell me he loves her. I don't know. One thing he HAS said (which fits into what you say) is, "She makes me happy." For someone that I KNOW is profoundly depressed, this makes sense. One of the things that differentiates male depression from female is that men tend to look for the causes and the fixes for their depression outside of themselves. So as far as he's concerned I was the cause of his unhappiness, and she's the cause of his happiness. (Accountability? What's THAT?)

Can a WS really love their spouse and then do this to them?
I truly loved my H before, during and after my A. I was in a suicidal depression and I just needed. I was really messed up and I honestly believe that OM was just a distraction like a gambling addiction or an alcohol problem.

Does the love the WS and the BS share ever stand for anything while the A is going on?
During my A, the main thing that caused OM and I problems was my loyalty and love for my H. OM told many of my friends and family that he was always feeling like he was second fiddle and he knew we had no future because I still loved my H.

Does love ever play a part in making a WS come back?
For me to come home, I just needed to see an opening. Asking my H if he was interested in reconciliation was very scary, but I thought I had a shot.

How many people resolve to lose weight and give in to the "munchies" the next day?
How many people know it is harmful to smoke but cannot quit?
How many "late sleepers" (like me) resolve to get up earlier and enjoy the day, but still stay in bed when the alarm goes, unless they are forced to for work?
How many of us MUST have their Tim Horton's coffee in the morning, even though we know it messes up our system (and probably contains nicotine)?
How many young adults "give in" to unprotected pre-marital sex even though they have heard and believe all the reasons to abstain?
How many spend the extra money on another new "toy" even when we know it's not in the budget?

It is all about feeling good now. We know it is not in our best interest, but the physical/emotional feeling is stronger than our will power and obscures our thinking.

What is stronger than that awesome "feeling" of love? We know it is not real. We know that marriage is hard work. We know that an A is bad for us and everyone around us... I'm sure that nearly all people caught in an A would have said prior that they would never do it or that it is wrong. But when we are faced with that awesome, knee buckling, head spinning, heart pounding, feeling of euphoria that comes over us when emotional needs are being met to the extreme... and the alternative at the time is sadness, frustration, or boredom... I would imagine it is a very difficult feeling to ignore.

This is why A's are so prevalent in the world today... it is a lack of willpower, it is a weakening of social conscience, it is stronger temptations all around. Men and women are working together in the workplace much more than in past generations. Clothing is more sexy and provocative. The news and movies are all about A's. Prior to my W's A, I would watch romantic movies with A's as the main plot and think nothing of it... even be happy for the affairees in some cases. Our history plays a role. My MIL had a couple of A's... one of which my W was conceived... the other, my MIL left her husband for and remarried. My W hated the thought of an A and vowed to not be like her Mom because of the hurt all around her... but also saw that there were some positive outcomes in her Mom's life. When the temptation hit, her past weakened her resolve and she was able to justify.

We may "know" that real Love is hard work... just like we know that losing weight or quitting smoking is hard work. But when we "feel" those feelings now, depending on how many defense mechanisms are in place in our lives, it can be an easy thing to want the "quick fix" good feeling now. Once we give in, the addiction takes over and it is hard to get out.

We are living in a weak, instant-gratification society which is a society ripe for A's.

This is why most BS's are disappointed (like I was) when a WS chooses to come back but still are not "in love". I expected my W to just snap out of it and realize all those loving feelings she had for me. It just doesn't work like that. A FWS chooses to return to the marriage because it is right, because it is the best alternative, or because they realize and remember they do love their spouse... but still are not "in love". After the hard work of recovery, the "in love" feelings may return... but it is the true love that keeps both couples working at it.

Shaden

Shaden, I agree with a lot you have said. Especially about TIm HOrton's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

YOu and Justpeachy really hit it on the head. In my case, DOrk vehemently denies that he is in love with DP4.

But it is far easier to "coast" than to rebuild. And it takes determination and self evaluation to try to rebuild. ANd strong boundaries. BOundaries to protect your values and principles. And when those dang 'chemical' giv eyou a quick fix of instant happy. It is very hard to willingly go into a situation where there will be pain and anger to work through. Happy now vs long term perhaps unattainable healing that will defintely be a very painful process, well, it takes a real MAN or Woman to chooose the harder path.

That is why imho, Dr Harley says that a WS changes their inner valuse to SUIT their current situation. Becasue they give in to temptation, they WANT to justify their actions. Hence the "fog"

In my case, I still feel that the DOrk loves me but just cannot face the battle that is necessary to resolve this. A CA to the max so we are just a few short months away from the big D <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

THe entire time I have been fighting the A WS has been an ostrich. Reacting ony if I kick him in th etailfeathers and he pokes his head up out of the ground! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And I am not prepared to do that anymore. So as much as I hate it, I am leaving him to wallow.

I love him still. BUt it is NOT enough. Love MUST be coupled with courage and HOnesty. And that is missing. I can't GIVE him a moral backbone.

So I am in the sidelines with DD14 watching him lose everything that he ever had that was of value. He has lost his wife and his DD by his actions.

LOVE does not conquer all. If the WS is WEAK and emotionally immature well nothing will ever get resolved. No matter hw logical the BS is. No matter that the A will not last. It is impossible to change the outcome when a WS is not mature or strong enough to resist temtpation or does not value their family.

Fightingalone... I disagree. True and perfect Love can and will conquer all. The problem is that we are cracked, imperfect human vessels trying to contain and use perfect love. Love is not the problem... human imperfection and frailty is.



I agree with this one. They justify to feel better about themselves... we all do in many different situations.


I'm sorry to read that you are still fighting for hope. A turning point for me was when I realized the meaning of all the Sunday School lessons I was bored sitting through... God loves me. There is no other perfect love.

Prior to the A, I had my W up on a pedestal. I tried to spend every day treating her like a queen. If she rejected me, I just tried harder (and silently resented). I thought I could buy or win her love. This is one of the reasons for my W's A... she felt unworthy and that the expectations of her on the pedestal were too high. Once I surrendered to the fact that I cannot control my W or her feelings. That I couldn't control the time it takes to resolve our problems... just by doing more of the same or more of what I wanted. That I cannot buy her love with good deeds. Things started to change for us. I am still working on this part of things, but my perception is very different.

I used to feel that I couldn't live without her. Now I know I can. I used to try so hard to make her happy. Now I know I can't. I used to wish she would want to make me happy. Now I know she can't.

I now understand that all I can control is myself. The rest may work out in time and may not. I had no control over my W having an A... but I am taking control of this situation by using it to learn as much about myself as possible and grow into a better person. My W will be the loser in this situation if she ever chooses to leave.

For me, my signature line says it all...

Patience.

Shaden

Shaden, I was not clear. Love alone does not conquer all. I love him. DD loves him. It is NOT reciprocated. His non-love cancels OUR love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Or makes it meaningless to the outcome. Our love is given despite that.

His lies and HIS betrayal make OUR love of him valueless.

I am not fighting for hope. I have none. I gave that up. It is meaningless to him. A gift freely given and discarded means nothing. It hurts too much to give the best of yourself and have it negated and devalued.

I won't do it anymore.

ANd it IS within the context of an A. His so-called love or former love for me and for our DD means NOTHING.

Before the first known A, he was my rock. MY lighthouse. He was OUR hero.

NOW? my entire M is questionable. I will never know if any of what he said was real. NOthing is trusted. Nothing is real. Except for DD. ALL because of the A.

THere is NO love.

Thanks, Shaden and Fightingalone-again. That's some great stuff.

Now THIS:


Was just heartbreaking. This is EXACTLY how I feel, and I could have written it. I'm shedding a tear for you, me, and everyone else who feels that the most precious gift they had to give has been trampled underfoot as worthless. Sigh...

RT,

Very good thread. Your questions remind me of the ones we asked many years ago. It is these types of questions that will help you move forward. You are trying to resolve 'unanswered questions in your heart'. Some of the answers may hurt a bit but pay attention to them and learn how to improve yourself as a result. Remember sometimes even good medicine c/b a bitter pill but the effects are worth it.


Orchid: Your belief is correct for the sane. Just don't expect those from the 'mothership' (WS/OPs) to concur. They won't 'cuz they don't. Now keep that thought in mind as we move to your questions.


Orchid: No. Why? Because the WS is NOT the one you married. Your real spouse loves you and may have shown it to various degrees before the A. Even if it could have been better, for many there was love there. With the A, the mind goes wacko and the H changes to an alien WS who does not love you or your family. That is why they can do what you have experience and more.


Orchid: BS and WS don't share love. The BS may even love the WS but not for long. No one can really love a WS because the WS will suck the life right out of anyone who shows geniune and sincere love (the kind that has the qualities of being long suffering, being mild, kind peaceable, with self-control, good, joyful and faithful).

So while the A is raging, there is no real love from any WS to their family.


Orchid: Yes. Sometimes it includes tough love. The degree depends on the actions of the WS. The BS needs to learn how to implement the various degrees of love needed. When the BS does their best and the WS is still the WS, then it is time for the BS and family to implement the greatest degree of tough love and cut the ties with the WS or drown in the A.


Orchid: No. The BS should not lower their standards and accept a WS as is back into their home. When that happens it is almost a guaranteed setup for a failed recovery. Note I said almost. Only you will know.


Orchid: Love can mean anything to anyone at the end of the day. You can't control what it means to a WS, expect to know it is usually not a correct application when a WS uses that word love. But to a Bs and family, the word love can mean a lot at the end of each day.

When dealing with a WS, I found it helpful to replace the word love with other words not easily misinterpreted. Words like: care, loyalty, concern, trust, support.....were just some I used to replace love. The WS' are not trained to babble back to such words so when you use those types of words, it tends to throw the WS off balance and gives your spouse a chance to peek out and make some noise.


Orchid: Good thinking helps us heal.

take care,
L.

((((RT)))

Sometimes words are not enough to express the depth of the pain. The soul killing ersoion of faith and trust. And there is NOTHING you can do to change it.

It is fighting the wind. NOTHING means a dang thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But RT, there is difference in the way I CHOOSE to walk away. I do mine loudly and publicly. WHen I am finally divorced, there will not be ONE rock unturned. Not ONE person in either my life or the DOrk's or the current Ditchpig's that will not be made fully aware of EVERY hurtful and hateful action of BOTH of them.

That is THEIR consequence of the betrayal of me and my DD. I am detrmined to shine the light of truth on their disgusting and hateful actions.

And RT before anyone slams me for hating the DP4 let me tell you one thing. DP4 told my beautiful DD that her father loved HER more than he EVER loved DD and me.

I WILL NEVER be nice to her, accept her or have anyting but loathing for her. If Dork is idiotic enough to marry her despite his protestaions that she is just a "casual friend" HE will have NO access to DD. NONE. Becaseu DD will not ever accept his actions and will never see him. Period.

Consequences of their actions. I am not obessing. Just stating fact.

Besides my hurt and my anger, the depth of my outrage at the way BOTH of them have treated DD let alone me, makes me thankful I am not in the same city as them.

Wow! Some brilliant and VERY enlightening responses, which I want to reply to but can't right now because I'm on my way to sit an exam.

But before I go, I was wondering about another question no one's picked up on yet: all relationships experience that "high" at the beginning with all the chemicals going berserk, right? Why is it that a marriage can last for decades after that "high", but affairs don't?

A couple together at the beginning does have the same high as in an A state, but there are a couple of huge differences, IMO.

In a marriage, we know that partners find out a whole lot more about their spouse after the wedding, but still, in most cases, the couple have gotten together with both eyes wide open... a chance to see some good and bad... and then after the marriage, they "evolve" together.

In an A, the couple see a fantasy. The A is meant to escape from the bad and they only see the good. Also, they are often meeting in secret with moments captured here or there... only a chance for the "best face" and only looking for the best in the fantasy. It is about escape and good feelings rather than looking for a partner to share their life with.

Also, a M is built upon truth and love... blessed by God. An A is built upon lies, cover-ups, betrayal... and cheered on by Satan.

It is possible for an A relationship to last, but the R is built on sand. It is also very difficult for a M to last, but it has a stronger base to build on. Both have "romantic love" feelings... but a M is based upon real love. Maybe it is possible for an A Relationship to grow to have real love between the couple... I don't know... but it sure is a lousy way to start.

Shaden

Thanks Shaden, that's also some good stuff.


Ah - I'm SO glad you understand that we don't have to be going through a rough time to ask ourselves these questions. I feel knowing the answers to these questions is important in some way.


Now that I am beginning to FULLY understand the "WS cleaved in two" theory, it is much easier to get my head around this. Not a pretty truth, is it? But I think this is right. I am most certainly a prime example of how "WS will suck the life right out of anyone who shows geniune and sincere love (the kind that has the qualities of being long suffering, being mild, kind peaceable, with self-control, good, joyful and faithful)." Even when I wasn't pushing or pressuring him ANY way, I could not understand how he could do the things he did to me in the face of my genuine, sincere love and its qualities.


But how can it, if there's no love between the WS and the BS? I don't get it. (I mean - I get the concept of tough love, I just don't know how love, tough or otherwise, can play a role in bringing the WS back if they share no love with the BS.


So... what about what the Harleys say, about it not mattering WHY the WS makes his/her way back home, and what's important is that they do?


This is REALLY useful info from The Queen of RB! Thanks, I will most definitely keep this in mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Sigh... I hope so.

Thanks so much, Orchid.