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Kinger,

Your other thread got a little too crazy - dinosaurs, Jesus, etc. Can't handle it. I sent you a short reply about justifications there, hope you read it. I wanted to answer your question about forgiveness.

This is coming from a marriage in recovery - 31 years (our anniversary is in two weeks) together. I believe we will recover our marriage - more importantly, our relationship of love. So, take this reply from that standpoint - that I believe in recovery, and in forgiveness.

I think forgiveness is somewhat dependent on the person doing the forgiving. I think there are people who genuinely have a forgiving heart, and others who don't. Think about that - do you know folks who carry a grudge over very little transgressions? I do! I can see where if their spouse were to have an affair, the marriage would be over, period, no questions asked. On the other hand, there are forgiving people, who are able to let things go almost without any struggle at all it seems. And they can forgive really big stuff - people who can forgive murderers on death row who killed their kids, for example. Then, there are the regular people in the middle. People like me. I can forgive generally, but I struggle when it's something big. The affair, that's big. I feel pain, wallow in it; I feel anger, and wallow in that too. Sometimes us regular people have to wallow awhile and feel righteous and indignant and "justified" in our anger and pain, before we work our way around to forgiving. I don't know why, we just do. I guess I just had to have my hissy fits (this site calls them LoveBusters and Disrespectful Judgements) and yell a lot first.

But I have forgiven my FWH. Why? Because I have reason to do so. First, he is truly remorseful. I see that in word and deed, I see it in his eyes every day. As he continues to act in this way, consistently, I will know more and more that my forgiving him is the right thing to do. I know that right now, and it is more confirmed each day.

Second, I forgive him for myself. I have to deal with the pain and anger inside of myself. If I choose not to forgive, that means that I also have chosen to carry the anger. Anger brings with it a lot of emotional weight - forgiveness relieves that burden. There is a selfishness to the forgiveness, but I had to make a decision regarding forgiveness one way or the other. I made the right one for me.

Had I chosen not to stay with him, I still would have had to face the forgiveness decision. I would have had to face the anger every day, and at some point I either had to let it go, or let it eat me alive. I am much further along the path to my own personal recovery because I have worked through to the forgiveness.

Forgiveness does not get tied into a religion with me. It is tied into a sense of humanity. I have transgressed against others, and needed their forgiveness. Sometimes others forgave me, other times they didn't.

I have done things that I have needed to forgive myself for. I am hardest on myself. I tend to withhold forgiveness from myself more than anyone else.

Others have done things to me that require my forgiveness, and I have forgiven them all, as much as I recall. In this case, why should my husband be given less consideration than the others, or less consideration than myself?

Forgiveness unfolds, like a blossom. At first, it is just a green bud, tightly closed, hiding its beauty and refusing to show itself. Slowly, the color comes to the surface, giving you just a hint of what is hidden within. Cautiously the petals relax, one by one, and seek the light of the sun, unfurling its face. Finally, the flower opens fully and shows it's glory to all who seek it.



Forgiveness is like that - it creeps up on you. Sort of like love.


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This post is absolutely wonderful. Your post has convinced me that you are coming from the right place, which I respect.

Thank you so much for your words and position. People can learn alot from this post.

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Schoolbus, this is a most beautiful post, and one I really needed today. I believe in forgiveness just as you do, and have put it right up there with the list of Things I Must Do NOW, despite receiving the D papers. It is a process for me, and I have found (alas) that the recent revelation that STBXH's A has been going on all along and DIDN'T begin two months after our separation has set me back. So I am back to the hissy fits. Controlled hissy fits that harm no one, but hissy fits nonetheless. I am SO resentful because I truly felt I was getting somewhere, and the peace that comes from even just *trying* to forgive was quite priceless, and having to begin again... well, I'm sure there's a lesson in here for me somewhere, but I'm too close to see it at this stage.

I'm looking forward to seeing a glimpse of that flower - even if it's in the distance - again.


"No power in the 'verse can stop me."
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Kinger,

I wanted to also note that the responses humans have to situations are not always consciously controlled. For example, my response to what my husband did really did affect me in ways that just evaporated what I thought my world was. I had thoughts about things - how I thought he felt about me, how I thought our relationship was, what I thought he thought my personality was, what I thought he thought I was all about - well, everything. A great deal of who I thought I was, turns out after 30 years was quite wrapped up in him and his opinion of me. Never would have thought that before the affair. Now, I know it to be true. I thought I was an independent woman, intelligent, able to be who I was on my own merit. Turns out, more than I want of who I am is dependent on his love and feeling for me. So when my brain could no longer trust the construct that was the history of what I "knew" of our relationship and what I "knew" about myself, my life was then devastated. My brain could no longer trust what it "knew" about my life, nor about my self. It isn't just an emotional hit we take in this process, it is a neurological hit - our brains can no longer base decisions on the information it has in place, because it cannot trust what it has there...it now knows that there are lies, and it does not know which part of what it knows are lies, and which part of what it knows are truths.

This leads to difficulties at the beginning in reconciliation, because the BS wants answers to their questions - right now - of course they do! Their brains need TRUE information, so they can make good decisions. They need the information filled in, so their brains can restart and get back on track. The WS on the other hand, has been operating in a fog, which is also neurological in nature - that is, the compartmentalization which has taken place has a biological basis of protection of the psyche, to allow a person to function in the presence of guilt and shame which in many cases is probably quite overwhelming (in my husband's case, it resulted in a lot of drinking). This whole process is quite complicated biologically, and all of it takes a great deal of time to work through. No one in this situation should make a decision right away. If you are in an affair situation yourself, as you say you are on the board for personal reasons, please don't make any decision for awhile. Both the BS and the WS will need time to come through the initial phase of the process before the brain has time to process the information, reset the system to sort things through and find the constructs for true foundations for decision making, and in order to settle down the emotional system. If you are the WS, it is also very important that you not contact the OP, as there are issues based in neurological science (despite the MB principals, there are neurological reasons too) which will complicate things for you if continued contact is made.

I am curious about your situation. You have avoided questions. You don't have to answer, but at some point, I think I might like to know. When you are ready.

Schoolbus


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River Tam,

There is an old story about forgiveness. I posted it once, and will try again here. I can't tell it the same way twice, so forgive me if it's different!

There were three monks who had taken several vows as part of their religious order. One vow was that they would never touch a woman. The three monks were on a journey, walking along a path. It had been raining for several days as they walked. They came upon a swollen stream, and there in the stream were a woman and her young son, trying to cross. The two were in trouble, and clearly needed help. Two of the monks jumped in and rescued the little boy, but left the woman. The third monk jumped in and carried the woman to safety. The three monks then crossed the stream and continued on their journey. Well, the two monks who rescued the boy just could not believe that the third monk had touched the woman! As they walked, they quietly began talking to each other about the transgression against their vows. The third monk could hear their murmurs. One mile, two miles, then three miles passed by. The two monks grew more and more indignant and angry about the breaking of the vow. Finally, they confronted the third monk, and told him that they were upset that he touched the woman. "Yes, brothers, I touched her. However, I put her down three miles back. It is you who still carries her."

You see how anger only grows? It does become a weight in your life.

Consider that your STBXH will carry with him the weight of what he has done for a very long time. He knows of his transgression, and so do many others. It is his weight. I think an aspect of forgiveness allows the transgressor to take back what he has done, and own it - and he then has to carry that weight himself. It is always harder to forgive yourself, isn't it? Work yourself toward forgiveness, even if it is only for the selfish motivation that you are giving him back his own weight to carry. You need to get to that point so that you can move ahead in your own life.

Follow the advice of the monk. Put her down three miles back!

Hang in there. I sense there is someone out there for you who is true. Soon.

Schoolbus


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SchoolBus: I am not in an affair situation. I sincerely apologize if I mislead you or anyone else in this manner.

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schoolbus,

I do so love a metaphor.

I just wanted you to know that I really enjoyed your post here.

Sometimes when I read things like this on MB I get an “ahh ha” moment that seems to be a shortcut to something my mind was putting together but I just couldn’t quite get there all on my own.

Thanks for putting your sentiments down in type.

Plank.


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My "Feelings on Honesty", My "Reasons why:", The Affair World

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Just studying for a midterm, came on here for a minute, and was really impressed with a lot of what I read on this thread.

And had a question:

Schoolbus, Can you expand on this point/comment you made please?

Quote
Work yourself toward forgiveness, even if it is only for the selfish motivation that you are giving him back his own weight to carry. You need to get to that point so that you can move ahead in your own life.

Think I'm having one of "those" moments here, and was wondering exactly what this looks like/means to you.

Thanks. Hope this isn't threadjacking--just trying to expand on something here.

Intexas


BW-me, 29
XH, 29
3 sons-now 6,4,2
Divorce final--Sept. 27, 2006.


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Quote
River Tam,

There is an old story about forgiveness. I posted it once, and will try again here. I can't tell it the same way twice, so forgive me if it's different!

That was a truly beautiful story, Schoolbus, thanks so much. A keeper!

Quote
Hang in there. I sense there is someone out there for you who is true. Soon.

Wait a minute, wait a minute... you SENSE things? Do tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Addendum:

You know... I've been thinking a lot over the past few days about me being back to square one in my journey of forgiveness now that I know the A has been going on all along, and while it's not an easy pill to swallow, it's not this knowledge of itself that's the biggest thing for me. I just keep seeing myself back then when this all started. It's like watching me, and him, and the drama, unfold from behind soundproof, one-way glass. I see myself, so puzzled, hurting so much that death would have been a welcome release, and being subjected to just the most horrible emotional abuse. I see myself, taking this abuse on the chin, because I BELIEVED all the horrible things he said about me, because he'd never lied to me before. I see myself holding myself 100% responsible for his leaving, and 100% responsible for destroying our family because I was "a bad mother". I see myself exerting almighty changes which I admit were necessary but he didn't "trust" were real, and were "three weeks too late". I see myself and I want to scream at this other person I used to be, "Stop! Get away from this man! Stop listening! He's having an affair!" I want to protect her. I want to reach through the glass and just pull her away from all of it.

THIS is what's hardest for me. All the stuff I took on the chin... for what? For what good purpose? Just so HE could justify his sin. My faith, at its most basic, is that things ALWAYS turn out OK in the end; that the worst trials have the best rewards. But it's a horrendous amount of damage all the same, and although I have undoubtedly grown, learnt, and advanced, I am not yet at the stage where I can say, "You know what? What he put me through was worth it, for all that growth, learning and advancement." One day I will be, if I work VERY hard at myself, but I'm not there yet. Hence square one again.


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On giving him back his own weight to carry:

I think that when we fail to forgive, we continue to bear the weight of sin ourselves. That weight is the anger toward the other person, in a way. Think about it. As long as you do not forgive someone, you carry a lot of anger, hatred, bad feelings, whatever you call it. That is a heavy burden. It weighs on you, and you feed it every day, causing it to grow. I think that forgiving is probably the straightest path to letting go of anger, that is, especially if you have a repentant/remorseful WS. And I do think it is somewhat selfish, because you are working to relieve your own pain to a great degree. Forgiveness really does relieve your own burden. I found that to be very true, once I reached the point where I "gave in" to the forgiveness. Selfish because you are actually doing something for yourself, that truly does alleviate your own pain. It also does return the weight of the sin back onto the person who caused you the pain. You are essentially "giving back" the wrong to the person who committed it. No longer are you carrying that pain or the weight. Somehow they take it back in the forgiving process.

Think about this for a moment. Have you ever done something that you needed a BIG dose of forgiveness for? When that forgiveness came, you really felt it coming to you, didn't you? A physical feeling of sorts came over you, a sense of relief yes, but also of responsibility as well, of sadness, of weight, of remorse too.

If you are a Christian, forgiveness is a command, and PLEASE, religious zealots, this is not a religious invitation.....no threadjacking here, thanks in advance.....Other religions do have similar instructions. It is the human condition to need forgiveness and to need to give forgiveness. For me, it is a human issue.

Be a little selfish today, and give forgiveness for the smallest part you can let go. Maybe one lie you were told, or one small part of the one little lie. Start there.

Schoolbus


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RT,

His transgressions are great against you.

His forgiveness from you will take a long time. Don't allow the length of the list and the greatness of the sin to be a burden on you for too long. His weight should not burden your life nor break your wagon.

Remember, too, that you were not there when he made his choices. He made them all by himself. Whether or not he owns them right now, he does own them in the grand scheme of things. He will be held to them at one point or another.

Ernest Hemingway was pretty insightful on this. He wrote a very, very short story called "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place" or something like that. He talked about how we are all able to go through our days so easily la-la-la like nothing is wrong. But when we lie down to rest, well, that's another story. We turn out the lights, and all of a sudden we start to think about things we don't like about ourselves. Your WS does this too. Only his list is longer, know that in your heart.

Hang in there, RT.

SB


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schoolbus...

All great stuff...I'm so glad that you are here with such wonderful words of wisdom...God Bless You, friend...You and your husband are very blessed to have each other...

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Schoolbus, thank you so much for your insightful and compassionate words.

Something is happening here... it's been an intense couple of weeks, and I've been feeling absolutely everthing, but now it appears that (at least for now) the anger has been burnt away. I'm just left with a profound feeling of sadness and grief. So I hope this signifies moving through something.

I do want to forgive. I believe it is the key to my healing. It is an amazing realization when the penny drops that healing isn't in the hands of the person who betrayed us, but within ourselves (after all, even God can only heal us if we want to be healed). It is an empowering realization, but also an overwhelming one to me, because I think that healing on my own - without STBXH's remorse, restoration of trust, loving actions, or even with "someone else" to help heal my heart, as so many songs and romantic stories say - is the longer road. Not an easier one, but a longer one.


"No power in the 'verse can stop me."

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