Boy, this board has been quiet lately, maybe I'll liven it up a bit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

OK, topic du jour is what's "normal" as far as visiting extended family, i.e. parents and siblings, who are on the opposite coast from you.

Specifically, that is where G's extended family is, and she likes to visit them about 6-8 times a year. So that's two weeks at Christmas, two weeks in the summer, Thanksgiving weekend, and a few weekends interspersed (essentially every three-day weekend of the year). I found that somewhat charming, especially the fact that she is so close to her family.

But, I kinda looked at it as something she does while single, but that if she and I got married, that the "family" would gravitate more towards me and her, and the extended family would take a bit more of a back seat. Yet in our recent conversations, I have become quite aware that this is not her intent; in fact, she hopes that I would go with her back East as many times as possible. She sees it as equal treatment, given that I do see my family several times a year, although my family is all in our state, so it does not require a cross country trek. Still, point well taken and granted.

Now, I happen to despise air travel (funny for an aerospace engineer, eh?), and so I told G that I would prefer to limit my trips back there to maybe two a year. She would be completely free to go as often as she wanted, but I did not want to make the trip more than twice a year. Not just because of the air travel, but the whole idea of going all the way cross country every few months seemed excessive to me. My ex and I never did that, nor do any of my friends. Still, I respect that it is important to G to go, so I have no problem with her going - I just don't want to feel obligated to go along every time.

Well, this issue has been brewing for a while, and tonight G gave me an ultimatum of sorts that I wanted to bounce off you all. She said that just as I stated my decision to not have another baby as a non-negotiable, she has decided that she must have a partner who will go with her back East at least twice a year, and hopefully even more. I said that I do not necessarily see a problem with that "rule", but that I was somewhat bothered by how it was being imposed; she said that it was no different than my "no baby" decision. I responded that although there is some similarity, the idea of imposing "non-negotiables" onto married life was counterproductive and a bit ridiculous (I wanted to use wiftty's "the future is uncertain" line, but decided not to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

I said that at this rate, I can say that I want it promised that she would spend Thanksgivings with my family, or that we would go fishing once a year, etc, and before you know it, we would be trading non-negotiables instead of negotiating. I told her that while I don't necessarily see a problem with me going back there twice a year, that I'd like a bit more flexibility.

G repeated that this is her non-negotiable limit; two visits a year, including a week in the summer and hopefully the full week at Christmas. I asked her what about Thanksgiving, would she be willing to spend it with my family. Her answer was "no", Thanksgiving was a very convenient way for her to see her entire family all at once, and that we can have Thanksgiving with my family on a different weekend.

I mentioned that my son's birthday was right around Christmas, how would that work. She said that perhaps I could choose to come home early for his birthday every other year or so, while she'll stay through New Year's.

Anyway, we ended with her telling me to think it over and let her know. In my heart, I already thought it over, and I know my answer - no way.

Not because of the trips, but because I see this as an ultimatum. I would probably have been willing to go along if she phrased it along the lines of "AGG, I really want you to get to know my family, I would really like it if you go back there twice a year with me or more, when you can make the time for it". Instead, I got dictated not just the number of times per year, but also when and how long, my family and plans be damned <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. At least that is how I saw it. I see no empathy from her for my position here. It's as if her routines (she said she has never had a Thanksgiving or Christmas away from her family) trump all of my family traditions, my son's birthday, etc. I can sense that she is speaking from some position of hurt, but I am having trouble empathizing with it as well when she presents it so forcefully, so I end up simply digging in my heels.

So, I think we are done. Just seems like a weird note to end it on, but it is probably very telling of some of the recent discussions we've had, and our apparent inability to see each other's points of view or to look out for each other's best interests. We did seem to dig in our heels when we disagreed. Her more than me, IMO, but I don't know that it matters. We obviously cannot negotiate, and so it's best we found out now rather than later. And yes, there were quite a few issues we have found that we have not been able to resolve, such as prenuptials, that have come and gone without resolution, so it's not like this was the only one. Too bad, really, I was really crazy about her, and still am. But this has probably become the last straw for us. Weird, huh?

Thoughts?

AGG

Wow. No words of wisdom here. Just sorry to hear it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ((((AGG))).

I can understand where you're coming from, though. I would be reluctant to accept inflexibility and ultimatums too. I think her paralleling it with the baby issue is a bit of overkill though. It sounds more like she just wanted to be able to "wield the power", which would mean that she views you as "wielding the power" in the baby decision - which implies she's not as ok with it as maybe she made out.

Do you think maybe it's her way of "testing" you? Or maybe pushing it in order to get a definite resolution? I mean...like an exit affair..forcing your hand, kinda thing, since you've apparently been having some differences? Just some thoughts...

LSNE

Yeah, I dunno. I do think that she feels that everything is done my way. To some extent this is true - if we were to get married, she would have to move down to my area, due to my custody arrangement, so that would worsen her commute and move her out of her neighborhood (though she would move into one of the nicest areas of LA, into a nice ocean view house). Also, because I have my kids half time, she does end up coming down here during those weeks, while I see her on the alternate weeks. I grant that she would be making more adjustments than me. So I think that she feels that in return, I should want to visit her family on her terms, as in "it's the least you can do after all I do for you". That's the part that bothers me.

I don't mind going back there twice a year. I do mind feeling like I owe someone a debt. My ex built up that resenment in her head, and I am feeling G do the same thing - "All I do for him, spend time with his kids and family, change my commute, what about me?". But to dictate to me when I have to go back East with her, how often, and for how long, just seems weird to me. That's the part that bothers me, even though I can see that she is hurting too from some sense of injustice, which I am having trouble comprehending, but I can sense that she feels it strongly.

It doesn't help that we are having major arguments over something that means almost nothing to me, prenups. It came up as a question in a compatibility book, with G saying that she doesn't see the need for prenups, and me saying that I used to believe that too when I got married the first time, but now, having been divorced, and with two dependents and a $1M equity in my house, I thought that many would advise me to get a prenup. I said that I would at least want to talk to an attorney about it, to understand the ramifications. I never said that I want one, just that I want to look into it.

Well, she turned it into a "you don't trust me, and if you don't trust me, we shouldn't be together" argument. I told her that it was not me, I was simply relaying what I read, but she said that it is all about me and how I felt about her. Despite me saying five times that I was completely unsure about needing one, and just wanted to look into it, she kept saying that she saw that as me not trusting her. Anyway, it's not the stupid prenup, it's the fact that she does not hear what I say (not blaming it on her, but that is the result), and that really concerns me.

Then for good measure she started saying that she always feels like it's me and the kids against her, though when I asked her to explain, she couldn't. Finally she shared that she feels like she is not a part of our lives, that we make all decisions without her, and on and on. I just sat there flabbergasted, because none of it made sense.

So, I suggested that it sounds like maybe we need to step away from each other and ponder things. She didn't see the need for it. But, I don't see the point of seeing each other with all this resentment building in both of us. Ugh.

AGG

You've come out of the cave AGG, and indeed, livened things up!

I dunno what to make of your latest entirely. My first thought is leverage, due to the baby issue. Something that is her deal breaker because she has never found anything in/with you that was an issue.
But then you mention she doesn't feel it necessary to step away and ponder as you had suggested.
It seems to me, if this hurdle were so huge, she would be all for agreeing to step back. Is this a hissy fit of sorts? Q to ponder??

I will say though, that I think it's selfish of her to consider that you spend every other birthday with your child. For me, that would push every button within me.

As far as a prenup, I think you would be very wise to look into one. I think it's very common for anyone the second time around to check into this, if not have one. I think it has little to do w/trust and everything to do with CYA.
Back to.....
"I wanted to use wiftty's "the future is uncertain" line"

I guess I'm wondering since you mentioned there have been other issues lately, if this isn't an excuse to make it or break it kind of deal. She is searching for the deal breaker, but yet is struggling with what she feels is her deal breaker.

Just as you say you are crazy for her, I suspect the same is true for her, she is crazy for you, and then there is the * but *
I'm afraid it will all come down to the BUT for the two of you. And I don't envy either of your positions.

Good luck!

Karona

Interesting discussion.
I had a travel issue too, and my X resented visiting my family and it was only 600 miles away. So I'd go alone with the kids, and when he'd go it was miserable. The kids still remember the drives and how angry he was. It's much calmer with just me and the kids. I remember having to do everything to prepare for the trips, packing and all, and he'd drive and then just walk away from the car. Complain constantly to me when we were alone, but "act nice" in front of my family, while he talked against them to me. Yuck.

Family is important, and relationships need to be maintained. Perhaps she is trying to find a "dealbreaker".
Re: prenups. I don't think most of us would have considered one in our first M, and most wouldn't be without one in our second M. It seems to be a trust issue, but when you have kids, you want to protect their interests, particularly when we've all seen how sour things can get.

Now, I visit my family about 4 times a year with the kids, family rarely visits us.

No advice, just experience. Vacation time is sparse, can she really expect to take that much time off? What happens when you want to go on a really nice long vacation - then you'll have no time left.

Wow.

I'm sure the pattern of her traveling was conveniant as she was single and easier for her to hop on a plane and visit rather than family coming out to see her. If you two end up together, she's no longer single, and travel is not that easy.

I don't think it is reasonable to think that she gets all holidays with her family - when a couple gets together, they do have to compromise here, and start their own traditions - maybe you'd like to host a holiday? for example. Just having the kids you have to have flexibility - I think agreeing to two trips a year is reasonable, but the dictated when/where/how of it is not.

I'd look into a pre-nup too. Just myself, no issues, if I'm going to trust my entire self to someone, I can certainly trust my assets as well. But with the kiddies, I have other interests to look out for. Just the way it is.

~good luck ~

[color:"purple"]AGG,

I found that with BF having no children his parents and friends are (were) the center of his life.

While taking care of his parents is an obligation that I would never ask him to neglect, visiting extended family for every holiday and vacation period is something that would not be attractive to me.

The biggest disagreements we have are centered around his habits with his friends. Specifically that I want to spend what little alone time we get with BF and when his friends hang out at his house Friday night, then Saturday, then Sunday with his folks - I end up feeling like I haven't gotten to spend any quality time with him. (He has different groups of friends. A couple of guys that may hang out for beers on Friday and then couples that may come over to swim all day on Saturday.)

This sounds like a similar issue with you and G. That her need to visit these folks every time you are free from work would interfere with spending time as a family on vacation together or spending time as a couple.

Worse is that she seems very inflexible.

I don't know G, maybe this is her way of drawing some line in the sand to see how far you would go for her. It could also be some buried resentment about the baby thing. This could also be another manifestation of her inability to let things go - as you've seen with the "packrat" sort of house thing.

I would thing that the travel schedule itself would just become exhausting.

V.[/color]

AGG, While G. is fully entitled to how she wants to live, I do think the frequent and extended visits to the family speak volumes. Sounds like she’d be willing to live with you, but her bio family will still be her primary family. You would have to become part of her family, rather than the two of you blending your families together. I don’t know. I just get a weird feeling.

Ok, building on GG's comments "Trust your instincts"
Too many times we overlook our internal warning systems.

It does sound like she's speaking from a hurt position but anger as well. It seems to me she was not fully on board with the no baby decision but acquiesced instead. This is a bit of pay back.

G is coming across as rather ridged & not very willing to see your point of view or your concerns about what marriage/family life will mean to you as a couple.

Just curious, has G de-cluttered her apt.?

I kinda hate to say this because I know it's not true for every never married person without children but here goes. G has not been in a position that requires the kind of sharing, consideration of others, sacrifice that people who have experienced marriage & children. This doesn't make her bad but it does make her more self focused.

Getting involved with a divorced man with children has it's restrictions. Perhaps she thought she wouldn't mind but now that some of the shine is wearing off the newness it doesn't feel so doable.

If I were to remarry a man that had significant assets I would expect a prenup. I would want that for myself & my assets as well simply to protect my children. Does G own a house or have money invested? If not, this may be another area where she lacks understanding.

The ex has an aunt who never married. She keeps coming to mind when I read what you say about G. She would truly be unable to intergrate into a situation that required her to share, consider & allow for others needs, without keeping tabs for pay back some day.

Thanks for all the responses.

First, I know that I am done with G. It's not the prenup, it's not the family visits, it's the way we negotiate, or rather don't negotiate. As long as we agree on things (which granted happens 99% of the time), things are great. But, I see that whenever we don't, I do my best to at least try to understand, validate, and empathize with her position (even if I may not agree with it), while she in return has the position of "Well I just don't see how anyone could see it that way" (i.e. my way). Needless to say, I get very hurt by this lack of empathy.

I know that she feels very strongly that she has done much more for me than I have for her. In fact, she slipped out a statement yesterday that "I do everything for you and you do nothing for me", which she then denied saying when I questioned her on that. Still, I know that if you woke her up from deep sleep and asked for "the truth", she would say exactly that - "I do everything for AGG, and the one thing I ask him (to go back East with me to visit my family", he won't do". Never mind that I went over and over and over the fact that I am willing to go back with her, but maybe not 6 times a year, and maybe not always at the holidays (aka my son's birthday), and maybe not for a whole week at a time. But, her heels are dug in, she feels that I "don't want to spend time with her family", and the rest goes in one ear and out the other. Oddly, her BIL refuses to fly on the plane period, which is why we would always go back there and they never come out here. I asked why is it "fair" that I make an effort to overcome my discomfort and he does not, and yet *I* am the bad guy. Her answer? "Well, obviously it's different because he can't fly, and you can". Oki doki.

Same with the prenup. It's not the prenup, it's the fact that she kept using the same phrase over and over, which still rings in my ears - "Why do you want to protect your kids from me? Why don't you trust me?". And all my comments about not even being sure that I want a prenup, and it is just something I want to look into because everyone says I should, again, in one ear and out the other. All I wanted to hear was "OK, honey, I'll read up about it and see where you might be coming from", but no, she did not want to do that, because in her mind she has the right answer.

I think many of you are right, and that the baby thing ended up being a scorecard against which everything gets compared. I can't win that battle, nor do I want to. Or it may also be the same old "not getting it" thing of someone who has never been married and never having kids being involved with a divorced single parent. Two different universes coming together, it appears.

It is clear to me that G feels that she is giving everything up for me and I am not doing the same for her, and the more we talk, the more clear it becomes. So I am planning to spend a few days away from her, just to clear my head a bit, although I think I already have the answer. The fact that we cannot resolve any issues that have come up so far shows some real problems, and I see no sign of that going away. The fact that she already has built up a scorecard in her head (thanks nams, that is exactly how I view it too) really surprises and scares me too.

It's all kinda sad, but I am also very numb to it at this point. I know I tried, I see that we do not "get" each other, and I feel very at peace with going my own way. The only sad thing is that she will no doubt feel that she has once again given everything and received nothing in return, and that I refused to see her point of view. But, as they say in divorce law, the very fact that two parties cannot agree about having a divorce demonstrates that there are irreconcilable differences, the fact that G and I both feel that the other person does not "get" us means that we are a dead end. Oh well. Bummer.

AGG

Newly, I specifically wanted to address your post. I am very sensitive to not wanting G to feel that it is something I have against her family. I completely support her going back there 6-8 times a year, even though it seems excessive to me. But, I support it. And if her family was here, I'd be happy to see them 10 times a year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The thing that is at play here is that I do despise air travel, and of course flying the whole family cross country is a hassle and gets expensive. Anyway, I wanted to be validating of her desires and have her be validating of my concerns/constraints, and have us go from there. But, she decided to make her desire into a non-negotiable, with my concerns being reduced to "he doesn't want to spend time with my family".

That is the part that bothers me, even though I know she will say that "geez, I do everything for AGG, and the only thing I ask in return, he won't do for me".

Again, two different truths, with no sign of empathy or attempt to understand.

AGG

Is she an Aquarian? I am, and I lack empathy. It's a trait, and definitely on my list of things on which to work.
I have a difficult time seeing things another person's way. It's almost as if I need a translator between to speak to sensitive people. (My oldest is one). I speak logic, not feeling language. My friend calls me to translate her mother's aquarian speech/actions.

My X hated to drive or fly, he just hated to socialize. Period. I think he's far happier in a relationship where it is just the girlfriend, the girls and her child. No outsiders. (well, as happy as he can be).

Nah, she's a Virgo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Funny thing is that *I* am supposed to be the rigid and inflexible one, based on my personality. And yet with G, I acutely noted how in all our disagreements *I* was the one trying to empathize and bring up both points of view for subsequent discussion, while she held on firmly to the "I just don't see how anyone can see it any other way" ideology. Weird. Sad, but weird.

AGG

[color:"purple"]One of the most endearing things that my BF does is to ponder some point I've made and come back to me with a "I see your point" or "I never thought of it that way", etc.

V. [/color]

AGG -- I think your analysis and conclusion are dead-on. Disappointing, but still dead-on.

I see you on a very direct path. There's a foot or two to move in either direction. So, if G has a "need" you have some room to accomodate her, but anything going too far off the path is just not gonna work.

I think she's been marketing herself to you that she fits on your path. I think she's burying or hiding some of her needs from you. And you are just starting to see the results of that. Her taker is making an appearance.

I see some friends marriages that keep a "balance sheet" like that....we spend $$$ on HIS hobby so I am "owed" $$$ for what I want....or we spend XXX days with HER family so I get XXX days for what I want....

How is G handling your decision? I suspect she might regret drawing that line in the sand.

Yeah, that would be nice. I very sorely miss that from G.

Actually, I think she does not see how hurt I am, which puzzles me. I basically e-mailed her and told her that I don't want to come up tonight, as we planned, because I am too exhausted mentally and physically (we talked till 3am on the phone last night), and I need to think about things a bit. I did apologize for changing plans.

In response, she said she is disappointed that I decided to not come up, that she was looking forward to talking more about this, just more productively. I dunno, in five hours of talking yesterday, we got absolutely nowhere, other than for me to develop a ringing phrase in my ears, "why don't you trust me????". After five times of telling her how I felt about it, she did not hear my position, much less empathize with it. So I don't see much promise in us talking face to face; we actually have a more difficult time being direct in person. She feels that this is all minor stuff we can work out, why throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I feel that this is huge, major stuff, the basis of out communication (in)ability, and she does not get it.

She did add in her e-mail that she feels that I do not look out for her these days like I did early on, and I am sure there is some truth to that. I am sure that with me becoming so resentful, the affection and affirmation and admiration have fallen off. But again, I feel that I was quite loving and affectionate and affirming earlier, and yet that was not enough to make her feel loved.

I am so confused, I really do need some time to get away from these discussion and interactions with her, and see what happens. But really, after all this time of feeling that she does not empathize with me (and probably the same for her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />), it would be hard for me to suddenly come off as the loving adoring and affirming guy that I do not feel like being towards her these days. And so the vicious circle continues, unless we stop it.

AGG

Oh boy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think it's a very good idea for you guys to take a few days, get a couple of nights sleep, and re-group.....

I agree w/ G, I don't think you should be running for the hills yet though or throwing out the baby w/ the bathwater. You've done an excellent (as always <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) job of recognizing what the real issues are so, present them once again to G, when you've both cooled off.

Give her a chance AGG. Yes, I bet she *thought* knew what she was "getting into" when she decided to date a divorced dad, but YOU also made a conscious decision to date a child-less never married woman who really has no idea what's involved...my point? This is going to be a learning process for you both.

I really had the feeling that this baby thing would come back to haunt you both. She is most definitely keeping score and is very much testing you and your dedication to her, hence her drawing the line in the sand. I too believe she will regret it if you guys aren't able to work past this.

Her family is really important to her AGG and I'm sure she wants to finally be able to share that w/ her partner. I realize you've acknowledged this, and are willing to go, and maybe she just wants to hear, "I really really hate flying G, but for you and b/c it's important to you, I'll try to go as much as possible, but it's also important to remember that we'll have to be flexible b/c we're blending our families, compromises will have to be made and it may not always be possible for me to go all the time."

But again, this isn't the crux of the REAL issues......

I wonder if she truly realizes she's keeping score? I wonder if she realizes she appears to be inflexible? I wonder if she realizes you don't feel heard or validated?

Hugs!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />