AGG - I hear all your points, and I'm relating to your side AND her side as you've presented it.

As Anna teased, yep, here I am, the eternal optimist. I know you'll remember my little story that ends with "where there's sh*t there's a pony!"

I've gone back and refreshed my memory on several issues in your posts. Kinda interesting, on every point I could present for your consideration you've already covered it. You've put thought into the issues. And you are empathetic, or, in the areas I feel you've possibly failed to haul out true empathy, you are at least attempting.

Now for the unveiling of my armchair assessment - drumroll - For as MB-wise as you are, I think you're being majorly inflexible, short-sighted and fumbling the ball. There, I said it. Heh.

And ya know what? I simply can't hold HER to the same standard I expect from you. She hasn't had the advantage of hanging out here studying the MB blueprint. And she doesn't have children of her own; I won't go into that issue here - you've received excellent feedback, particularly a past reply to you that discussed the death of a dream being perhaps more the problem.

Anyway, big or small, I see all these issues as POJA-able.

Where I feel you've dropped the ball is not following the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Go back and re-read/review.

Then...we'll talk. I have some ideas for brainstorming but frankly I'd rather you swizzle more MB stuff around in your mind first. That is, unless you prefer your MB "shaken, not stirred." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Btw, AGG, taking a break is okay...but your relationship w/G is not over. Farrrrrrr from it. Hugs.

I've followed you saga for quite a while now and I usually don't post much. I am in the final stages of my divorce and I've totally given up on saving my marriage from the deeds of my WH so I've been pretty busy. This really caught my eye though and I think you need to step back AGG. One of the things that I had the hardest dime with in my marriage was forming a new family with my husband. He moved me 6 hours away from my family and I hated it. I did grow used to it and accept it and would live anywhere now for the right man.

Trying to see things from her point of view....she's never been married and has no clue what it is like so of course her family will be the main focus and I think she's being very reasonable only wanting you to go 2 times a year. That's not too much to ask of anyone. It's not like she said you go everytime or it's all over. The one thing that would be non negotiable would be my child's birthday. Now I think you need to look at the big picture here AGG.

Like I said every few weeks, I check in here and read and I see a pattern of you being very critical of her and then softening and going back.....I hate to say it but I think you are the one being unreasonable about this. If she is changing for you .....wake up...love is not something to throw away over a stupid thing like how often you have to put your rear on a plane and fly to see her family. I think you are getting bogged down in silly details and you need to read the policy of joint agreement together.

AGG, this is truly a difficult situation & I'm sorry you find yourself in it.

It sounds as though G's behavior & words have hit something deep inside you that has taken some of the love & trust you feel for her away. It's like you're seeing a different person & you don't like her.

From your descriptions & her emails I would liken her to someone with a competative nature. They always have this as a core part of them but to what degree varies.

Some people have said you're scrutinizing her words too closely. I'm not sure about that. It's often the first things people say that are cloest to their hearts.

Still, I don't know about chucking it all either. You clearly have feelings for her & she for you. Be careful, be wary. Allow her the room to change the life style issues she says she wants to change without your help. She referred to you motivating her to change. Not, IMO, how that should work. But you've heard that from others already.

Part of this reminds me of when you're with a friend, someone close, they say something that makes you see them in a new, not good light, & you never quite get back the feelings you had for them.

I don't have too much time to post right now, but I read all the replies, thanks! I am processing and digesting all the points of view, so keep 'em coming.

The one thing I am torn about is should we really take a total break (as in "see you in six months, maybe") or try to keep seeing each other, maybe "dating" each other, just less intensely, like once a week or something like that?

For instance, we'll be driving right her place tomorrow with the kids, does it make sense to visit her for a bit (she wrote me today how much she misses the kids, and they said the same), or would that only keep things more confused?

Any thoughts?

I do have some other things to say about the responses, including the fact that I agree that I do think that I am often too hard on her and too critical - that is what causing so much confusion and anxiety. I'll try to post more tonight.

AGG

I think you do what makes you both feel the most comfortable, with the understanding that until certain issues are enthusiastically agreed it is unwise to move forward into marriage.

BB:


You are absolutely right. If she is motivated to make changes out of fear of losing the relationship, then that is the wrong reason. Yet her e-mails and our chats suggest that this "break" might have been a wake up-call of sorts for her to realize that some things do need to change; not just to keep me, but for her benefit. She volunteered a couple of epiphanies that she came up with, including the fact that no one she knows has the same schedule and getting ready habits as she does, or goes back to see their family six times a year. So I think that is the key question, has she had an epiphany or is she just being accommodating... I do sense a lot of reflection in her words; she is, after all, a logical Thinker like myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

starving:


Thanks for your kind words. And you are pointing to the key question - is she truly doing this for herself, or for me? Or, as is more likely to be the case, for some combination of both, which is OK too.

DW:


Yes, that is one of the reasons I fell in love with her, that ability of hers to be so caring and loving so deeply. Of all the concerns I have shared here, I have never questioned her love, devotion, sincerety, honesty, and integrity, some pretty heavy hitters IMO. So yeah, I am not eager to drop all that we have too quickly.

Anna:


You must have read my mind, because that is exactly what I was trying to tell her way back at the beginning. But I don't think she "got it", probably because she has never been married and has no kids.

Interestingly enough, although I haven't brought this up since, she told me yesterday that upon further reflection, she has realized that she is past the age of considering herself to be a part of her parents' and sister's families, and that if she is to become married, then that would be the primary family. And she said that she would welcome that opportunity. So, again, I think I see signs of her beginning to "get" some of these things.


I totally agree, and again, I think she is "getting it". She did say that she understands that she can't expect us to always go back east for every holiday, and that she would need to (want to!) devote some time to just "us" as well as to my extended family. And, to be very fair, I know that I am somewhat guilty of being unfairly cranky about the whole going back east thing, and I do need to work on that (I'll address this more in a minute). But again to be fair, the issue was not just me going back east, but how often and for how long.


I have a feeling that you are right, Anna, and I do hope that you are and that we work it out. I'm just struggling with figuring out what to do in the meantime? I am definitely not ready to start to date as if nothing has happened (though I have certainly cooled off from last weekend, when I was fuming). But I don't know if just going cold turkey and saying "see you in six months" is right either.

L4N:


Thanks for the encouragement, it means a lot especially because you were facing a similar situation. I agree with your take on this, and I wonder how you would suggest that I proceed with giving her that one more chance - date occasionally, go cold turkey, or something else?

Laura:


You may be surpirsed, but I totally agree. I don't like how I am reacting to some of these things, and I do find myself negotiating in bad faith on occasion. Interestingly, I am perceptive enough to see it happen, I just can't seem to stop it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. For instance, as we might be discussing something (like the prenup thing), it spirals out of control. I'll give you an example:

G - "I think prenup in a marriage is wrong"

me - "Honey, I used to think the same way in my first marriage, but I did read in many places that people with kids and assets should consider a prenup in a second marriage"

G- "I don't see any reason for that"

me - "well, I don't really know the reasons, and maybe we can talk to someone or read a bit about it to figure it out and see if it is the kind of thing I should even worry about. Maybe I wouldn't worry after reading more"

G - "I don't need to read anything, I know how I view this! I would never get a divorce from you or hurt your kids!"

me - "I know you believe that, and that is wonderful, but a prenup is more of a safety belt, in case something happens that people don't plan for, like a divorce"

G - "But you don't need to protect your kids from me! I love them"

me - "I know that, and I know you mean that. But people change in a divorce, my ex was the perfect example. I think the reason people would need a prenup is only to protect the kids' livelihood and well-being in case something happened. If nothing happened, it would never come into play"

G - "But I would never hurt them! Why don't you trust me??"

Totally unproductive, I understand. And the one thing I try to do is to validate her feelings and understand her point of view, but also offer that there might be another point of view out there. And I feel myself getting very resentful when she refuses to acknowledge that there might be another point of view. We had the same unproductive discussions on the topics of traveling back east, and some others. So yes, I agree, totally POJAable in principle, but if one person comes into negotiations saying that there is only one way, theirs, that can be a problem. In fact, I noticed that G often started the discussion with the phrase "Well I just don't see how you could see this any other way". Ouch.


See, I keep getting this sense from everyone, and that is encouraging. I just don't know how to handle or behave during the "break" - total no-contact or occasional interactions?

forgivenessiskey:


You are right, and I just want to point out that I did agree early on to go back a couple of times a year. So I thought we had that resolved months ago. But, as time went one, she started making more and more noises that that is not enough. She said that she doesn't like going back there alone, and that she thinks that her partner should go back with her because it is something that is important to her, even if it is 4-5 times. And then she proceeded to tack on the requirement that if it would be two times, it has to be for at least a week at a time, and one of the times must be Christmas week.

So, what happened was that I was given an ultimatum (she specifically said that it's a non-negotiable, that's what led to our huge argument on Monday). And I said that I don't think it should be a non-negotiable, that we should be flexible in accommodating family, holidays, and birthdays, and not be setting in stone how many times and when we'd go back east, for example. Well, that's when she said that she feels like she is getting lost in the shuffle with my kids, which made me see red, and things went downhill from there.


I agree - I do think that all these things are POJAable and negotiable - the problem I see is that G starts getting very rigid and somewhat nasty in negotiations, and then as you see in her e-mails, says that she didn't really mean what she said. That does concern me, because I would not want to live with that on a regular basis.

nams:


Yes. Very well said. That's how it felt, which is why I got so hurt.


Very astute <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. She said from the start that she is very strong willed, and she also said that she was much nastier/stronger with XBF than with me; poor guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Ah, very profound. That is what is bothering me about all her more recent "I'll change" or "You misunderstood my intent" e-mails - the words spoken at the time probably have more value than subsequent reinterpretations and rationalizations, and I heard her words VERY clearly.


I agree with this as well. Like I said, I am now wondering aboout how to give her this room, without a total breakup, if that's possible...

Laura:


Oh, no worries regarding marriage, we're not all as brave as you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:);).

You know, I had a long chat on the phone with her yesterday, our first since the whole fiasco. It went well, and I did tell her that unlike the other women I broke up with in the past, I did not see that our "issues" could not be overcome - it's not like she exhibited some of the other "dealbreakers" I came cross, like dishonesty, cheating, financial ruin, mental illness, etc. Really, where G and I are "good", we are great, and that is almost all of the important areas; I'd say our top 8-9 EN's are totally filled! But yet, it seems that where we're off (the lifestyle), we are really off - but again, lifestyle adjsutment can be made in theory.

So I did tell her that I could see us restaring at some point, and truthfully, that I could see a future for us as a couple, if the right things happen. And she was very happy to hear that, and then asked if we can see each other in at least some capacity while this takes place. And I said that no, I think that growth needs to happen individually, and all the other stuff we discussed here.

Well, she said something that made me think - she said that unlike me, she has no family or kids here, and she does not want to live her life feeling that everything was on hold for a year or for months, in an open-ended fashion. I guess I can understand that. So she said that while she does not need to date me right away or during the next few weeks, she'd at some point start wondering if she should just move on with her life or if I would be willing to give things another try.

So really, that is my key question to figure out over the next few days or weeks - do I truly tell her "Sorry G, you must focus on yourself and FOR yourself, and assume that I am gone out of your life and then we'll see in a year", or do I say "OK, I don't want to rush into anything, and I do want to see if we can find a happy medium so we don't upset each other and can accept each other, but we can certainly see each other, see my kids, etc, in the meantime". Thoughts?

AGG

Hi AGG ~

I'm hesitant about putting my experience out there, because it is different. The guy I was dating for 8 months - we took a 3 month break. Total no-contact. But we are not as serious as you and G, not even close. But the no contact really gave me time to get my head together without any worries of trying to "please him" or "show him how I'm doing" - to get grounded in myself and see what I really wanted. So for me, that worked, and 3 months, while not long to get changes underway, is enough to know what changes you are on board with (really on board with)and to start. My experience fwiw.

Very difficult, this question of whether or not to see G during this cooling off period. I understand her feelings about whether to move on or not.

In order for her to make the lifestyle changes you'd like to see she may NEED the security of some future with you. The changes may not seem necessary unless she really has to make them, after all, someone else may come along who accepts her exactly the way she is.

Her words say differently though. She realizes no one else lives like she does, she misses your kids, she understands the excessivness of the number of trips back home, & importantly that her home is really no longer with her FOO.

My question is whether this is really awareness & understanding. My heart would say yes, but my head would keep this an open question.

As to whether you should see her: Yes, but in a limited way. Visit like you would a cousin. Nothing intimate. Meet for lunch, maybe bring the kids once if there's something in her area you'd all like to do. No long emails or phone calls. Don't check up on the status of her lifestyle changes. Let her show you what she's DONE, not just considering doing. Maybe you can treat her as a person you like & would like to be closer with but you know she's not really ready yet. A phone call to say hi, but kept short, an email to tell her something interesting, fun. Keep things on the surface. How long....?

Hmm. My thoughts follow:

1. If I were in your position, and I am, I'd be wondering what's best for the kids. I say this because they already miss her. And this is where it gets dicey. This is also where G would probably start to feel a little hurt. The way I see it, you and G are adults. You both have some power in whether the relationship continues or not. The kids have none. So, whether or not you allow G to spend time with your children and how much, can put them in a vulnerable position. If after another intense six months, you and G decide to split up, the kids will lose a friend and there was nothing they could do.
On the other hand, you want to model good relationships. And you need to G with the kids at least sometimes to see if she can work through her jealousy.

I dunno.

Personally, I'm considering cutting back on the time M spends with my kids. It's been very limited as is, so my kids won't particularly miss M. They'll just miss teasing me. But, my situation is different and I'm very gunshy.

2. Many lifestyle issues are not easy to overcome, or even POJA. I got divorced over lifestyle issues. B and I had two very different ways of living. Mine is much more conventional than his. I'm a place for everything, and everything mostly in its place gal. B's an anywhere it happens to land it stays guy. I plan. He plays it by ear. You get the idea.

The real difficulty was that one of us was so strong willed, we were forced into that particular lifestyle. If I tried to negotiate, I'd get shut down with statements similar to G's.

Now, I don't know how far apart on the spectrum you and G are when it comes to lifestyles. B and I were at extreme ends, which made POJA always feel like we were each making huge sacrifices and the other feel like we were giving up nothing.

If you are closer, probably POJA will work, and where it doesn't, you may be able to live with it.

Hey AGG,

Been thinkin' about a few things.

One, I really think that if I were in your shoes I would not give up on the relationship because mainly loving someone that much, I wouldn't want regrets of thinking I didn't give it my all.

Although, I would back off a lot, there's just too many issues with you two right now and she has a lot of growing to do. I would limit the time to less and less for a while for G to spend time with the kids.

Two, been thinkin' about G's response to your suggestion of a Pre-nup. I think you were too harsh at her reaction. Everyone has close minded ideas on certain matters...they honestly think there is no way they would ever change their mind, and that is an initial first response. It may take time to warm up to the idea when they were so ****** bent against it.

I also think you failed miserably on the approach to getting G to see “your point” on this prenup and that your motives for a prenup are as selfish and as “indivual thinking” as G was on the first issue and her visits east.

So, before you get your blood boiling, let me give you brief thoughts of what randomly went through my mind as I explored your request for G to consider a pre-nup. Here’s my version of G’s side. ….

1. I have determined my dreams of having children will not happen as not all dreams happen and the dream of spending the rest of my life with a man and his family that I have grown to love is what I want now. Reality is I just can't have it all, his family, him and a baby.

2. I trust AGG enough to know he'll work as hard as I will on our relationship to make it last a life time.

3. AGG wants me to combine families, compromise, does not want a baby with the two of us and there is no compromise on that one for him, knows that I love him enough that I have accepted this thing he calls a "deal breaker", and yet now I learn also, when it comes to "his money" he's starting to consider a prenup to "protect what he considers "his", he gives this image that he only wants to combine things if it's in “his” and his children’s best interest. What happened to “We are family.”?

4. AGG does not trust me enough to think that I won't take his money or trust that our relationship will really last.

5. Okay, well realistically, divorce could possibly happen. When divorce happens it does become more individual again, not “we”.

6. What will happen if we divorce in say 5 or 10 years? I'll be too old by then to consider having my own children, I'll lose this great family, it's no longer "our" family, it's now just "his" family again. Sure I'll still have my extended family in which, btw, I gave up a lot of time with to spend on his family.

7. My family is so far away, basically let's see, if a divorce occurs, I'll be alone, not a bad thing, but a must get use to again after having a family, I'll have no children of my own, I'll have elderly parents if not parentless at this point, and siblings who have made their own families where I'll be the extended far away sister...I'll have some friends but of course we all know how that goes, usually all married friends and “our” friends”, possibly some friends I'll be able to keep but from experiences from other friends divorced, I'll have to start over with some single friends.

8. More than likely my lifestyle will have to adjust again to a very conservative lifestyle with my income only once again, which is a big adjustment to go backwards in a lifestyle.

9. Whoa! Maybe I need to think this prenup thing through, but for “my” protection just in case there is a divorce. Who REALLY has the most to lose here if a divorce occurs?

10. If we divorce before 5 years then perhaps we can keep all our finances separate and he can keep his things, me keep mine, starting over won't be as hard. Of course then think of Nicole Kidman/Tom Cruise, they had a similar agreement, and something like 4 years and 10 months later and he decides to bail before it hits 5 years, that would be painful.

11. Well, okay, if a prenup occurs the first five years if a divorce occurs as a settlement I'd want this much money before 5 years, and then if it last after 5 years I'd want enough money so that at least I'll have one less adjustment to make. Then if it last past 10 years I say we combine everything and if we split at this point, all assets will be cut in half.

12. Hmmm? I am thinking one the “me” not us once again. Okay thinking of protecting all of us. Pre-nups can be about the family, not just protecting me, protecting him or protecting our the kids, prenups can be about protecting all of us as family if our family falls apart.

13. Too bad in prenups I can’t get the children too. Why can’t I? If there’s a prenup, I also want it put in writing that I get some visits with the children as long as they want to see me.

AGG, in one of your post you said how if a divorce occurs you don't think you want to lose that million dollar equity in your house and you have dependents to think.. Loving G, selflessly, I think you need to re-consider that, and consider G's feelings because she’ll be your wife, and you need to consider all she is risking losing if a divorce occurs. It's much more than any money, it's her entire family that she has grown to love and that even though you don't like the words, you have to admit, that she has sacrificed the chance of her own baby to have a life with your family. She does love you that much! Which if it works out, wonderful for her, but if it doesn't, she will lose way more than just your monetary loss and her. You got to live your Amercan Dream, have the kids, have the family, you know without a doubt, more than likely your kids will always be a part of your life, there for you when you grow old. G is giving this up for you and your family. I’d say with that in mind, you need to quit thinking as much about the money you will be losing if it doesn’t work out.

I know you said “you just want to explore it” but here’s where your approach and your motives are wrong. You are not telling G, “I want to explore it for my protection and my kids protection.”. Remember your goal is for you and G to “all” be a family some day. Is this thinking as a family? Didn't you forget a member?

So I think a better way of addressing this is, “If we divorce, I want to make sure everyone in our family is taken care of fairly, including you G, because divorces can get ugly, it starts to become more about inidvidual needs instead of “our” needs, and the time to negotiate points if a divorce should occurr is exactly when you are in love, when you care deeply, and when you want the best interest of everyone.”

Well, there's a lot for you to chew on. A real "Eye opener" I would hope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Anna

Just a quick note... those **** are just "H E double Hockey sticks" man you would have thought I said something much worse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Wow, Anna, you certainly opened my eyes.

I may still want a pre-nupt that would allow me to by-pass the widow's statute in my will. However, you are right. The one coming in without children really could lose a LOT more.

First, an update.

The kids and I spent most of the day with G today, doing some fun activities, catching a movie, stopping by a carnival, walking along the beach. It felt great, and I think it was good for all involved. So, what I am thinking now is that maybe this is a decent approach for a while - see each other occasionally, enough to stay in each other's lives and maintain some contact and connection, but also keep quite a bit more distance - for instance, no spending full weekends together like we used to, and more of a dating kind of thing.

She is definitely working her butt off on improving the thigs she mentioned - she was up and ready by 9am today when we picked her up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and she did some further cleaning of her place. It was funny, today was the first time my kids saw her place, and my daughter's first comment was "Gosh, G sure has lots of magazines". I thought it was pretty funny, and I think G actually took it in a good way, as in "OK, it's not just that AGG is a nitpicky jerk, even a little girl thinks the same" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, she did say that she is clearing out a lot of her stuff, and it showed.

As we spent time together, I had a bit of a chat with her, and I told her what I was thinking over the past day or so - that again, it is not that I think that she is defective and needs to change to "pass the grade". Rather, it is that we have radically different lifestyles, neither one really wrong (yes, I had to bite my judgemental tongue on that one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), but pretty incompatible. I told her that my lifestyle was one of a parent - always hectic, lots of things to do, pulled in five different directions, with never enough time to finish all the chores. Her lifestyle, understandably, is one of a single person - lots of free time, much fewer chores (especially for a renter), and loads of time to relax and unwind.

I told her that really, there is no requirement for her to adopt my lifestyle... But, I also thought that it is probably a choice that she should make over the next few weeks or months, while we are "working on things", because I didn't think that she could continue to live a single lifestyle if married to a man with kids. She said that of course she wants the family lifestyle, and I said that again, that was her choice, and she should ponder it thoroughly.

Anyway, I think that this might be a good pattern for us - go slow, maintain the relationships (and like someone said, show the kids that we don't simply run off at first sign of trouble, but try to work it out), but without the intensity where it feels that the question of "where is this going" is constantly hanging over us. And kinda see where it goes. Anyway, that's my plan as of today, hopefully you all don't feel whiplashed yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

cyllanlisa:


That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I guess I am leaning towards the middle version for now, with enough contact to maintain the relationships and the connection, but with enough space to let us both work on ourselves and make adjustments. I like how that sounds, and of course it is a fine line, so we'll see how well we can walk that line...

nams:


I think it's not even as much that she needs the security or a promise of a future relationship, as it is that she would like to maintain some sort of a connection while we are regrouping. Otherwise, like you said, she might figure "well, AGG is as good as gone, I might as well move on". Not necessarily that she wouldn't make the changes, but I think she might be more tempted to start focusing on finding another partner, and then seeing if she would need to make changes - which in some ways, I can understand. After all, what if she spends all her efforts changing her schedule, only to find a partner who is a night owl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. So, I can kinda see why she is at least hoping to get an indication that if/when she makes the changes, I would still be there. I dunno, I think it's fair - not a promise, but a goal.


Good way of putting it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I guess I feel that she is definitely interested in making the changes, so her heart is into it. As far as whether there is enough awareness, I think that time will tell - and we have backed away from the super intense relationship, I don't mind giving things time to gel while still maintaining the connection.


Hmmm, I think that's exactly what I am leaning towards - great minds think alike, I guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

GG:


Yup, that is what I am thinking too. I think G would feel hurt if I totally pulled the kids from her life, and the kids would be bummed too. So I think the balance I am shooting for might be a good one.


I do think we are closer, it seems to be more of a "parent" vs. "single" lifestyle difference, though I agree that G is a bit extreme even for "singles" (not as bad as B, I don't think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

As far as POJA, that is something I really want to work on, because as you saw in my posts, I think that we have been quite lacking in that so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Anna:


My thoughts exactly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Yup, I think this too is in line with my thinking.


OK, let me first say that I am chewing on your long description of G's POV on this issue, and I do appreciate it and will get back to it in a second.

But, before I start, let me clarify - it is not that I suggested a prenup and G balked and I became upset. Not at all. The question came up in a questionnaire we were looking at, and G said that she didn't see the need for one, and I said that I thought that there might be a reason for one for someone with kids. That's all. It was not an argument, and I did not try to convince her of my POV.

What happened was that about a week later, she brought it up again, a bit more focerfully all of a sudden - as in "I probably would never marry someone wo wants a prenup". So, all of a sudden, I was staring at an ultimatum. So, we went from discussing an issue respectfully to being faced with a dealbreaker. Like I said, that did not feel like negotiation to me. But still, it's not like I tried to convince her that I was right - I still said that I was not sure that I needed or wanted one, but that I thought it might be good to discuss this some more.

Now, I totally agree that she probably saw this largely like you described. I agree. And I grant that. But, my concern was not what her position was. My concern was that she was not willing to listen to what I had to say, but was making it into a dealbreaker without room for negotiation. I know you are going to say that she had to face a dealbreaker about the baby issue, and I am not going to argue with you - but I think that the two are worlds apart - it's pretty hard to POJA a baby - in fact, a dating book I have specifically says that there is only one true dealbreaker in deciding on a marriage, and that is whether to have kids and how many, and that all other issues can be negotiated. I don't know if I'd take it that far, but in general I agree. And so I did get nervous with G, not that she did not want a prenup, but that she drew such a hard line in the sand without even giving it the benefit of discussion or consideration. BTW, it's not just about protecting me and my kids - her dad apparently has quite a large sum saved up for her, so it is not as clearcut as me protecting my stuff from her - it could work both ways.

Also, I want to clarify that I did not get upset that she didn't want to consider the prenup or that she wanted me to go back east so much - what blew my top last week was when she suddenly started making numerous comments about how it's me and the kids against her, etc etc. Yup, to me, those were very hurtful words. So it was not the prenup or travel issues, but all the closer-to-my-heart issues of competition between her and my kids.


Sorry, Anna, I disagree. You see, I am not even sure that I want a prenup, so how can I have selfish motives for wanting one? At best you can say that I have selfish motives for wanting to think about it further, but I don't see why that holds any water <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. All I said is that I want to consider a prenup, that's all. Look into it, think about it, understand it, that's all. Not necessarily want one. I am a logical person (she is too, 99% of the time), and so to me it only made sense that a matter of so much importance might warrant some investigation, instead of an automatic decision. Regardless, I didn't have a position on a prenup, I just wanted to keep it as an option that we might talk about some more.


Just to clarify, what I specifically said to G was that of course I'd hope there would be no divorce, and that if there were, I'd want to split things up as fairly as possible. So, if we were married for 10 years and then split up, I'd expect that many things would be so co-mingled that it'd end up being 50/50. Which would be fine. I would not want to tell G that she'd end up on the street, of course not. But, my point was that if for some catastrophic reason my W decides after 3 months of marriage to divorce me for the gardener (and we on MB have seen it all happen, so we know to never say never), that I'd want to be able to retain most of my going-in assets, as much for me as for the kids. Yup, maybe not all that loving, but I think fair. For everyone.


Ouch Anna, that kinda hurts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I am not thinking about the money. I am thinking about my kids. I think you as a parent would have the same instincts. And as much as I adore and love G, I simply cannot in good conscience do things that might cause my kids financial ruin. I would expect that most of us on MB with divorces and kids can understand. We have all seen perfectly wonderful people turn into monsters overnight. No, I don't expect it to happen with G, but then again, I don't know that it is fair to my kids for me to take a gamble. I want to be loving and fair to G, and I would never consider anything that is unfair to her. But, I also think that is reasonable for me to be protective of my kids' future - I don't think it needs to be a clash between the two sets of interests. And BTW, just to be clear - I am still not saying that I want a prenup - I just want to talk to an attorney to see what he has to say - why on earth is that unfair or selfish??



I don't get what is wrong with this motive... I absolutely want to protect G's interests too. And I do simply want to explore it. A prenup would not say that if we divorce after 10 years, G gets nothing and I keep everything. Not at all. It wouldn't say that and I wouldn't want that. It would say that if the marriage ends after a week, that I would not lose half of what I, and I alone, have been working for over the past 20 years. No, it's not romantic, but it is also not "unfair" to G, IMO. And like I said, she may have as much to protect as I do, and that is fine.


I totally agree. It would most definitely include protection of G. In fact, from what I read, a judge would not accept a prenup if it was unfairly slanted toward one party.


Yup, and I do appreciate your thoughts Anna. And I do put myself in G's shoes, and I do understand how no one wants to think of divorce when they are thinking about a marriage. But like I said, I've BTDT (and so have most of us here), and I cannot count on things which are outside of my control. So all I want is to have an attorney tell me that if for some reason a marriage does not work out, that I would not be financially ruined. Not that I'd throw my W to the street, but that she wouldn't throw me to the street <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. In fact, the more I read about prenups, the more I got the message that it actually makes the marriage more about love than money, because greed gets taken out of the equation. Interesting thought.

But again, I would never neglect G's needs in a prenup. The issue was not the prenup, it was the refusal to even discuss it. That's where POJA failed us, and I do think that it is/was a problem, because we'd have to negotiate many more things in our lives. And if negotiations always end up starting out as "non-negotiables" with a few zingers thrown in, well, then I'd have to seriously consider if I want to be in a relationship like that.

AGG

OK, I feel like my last post got too sidetracked with the whole prenup thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I don't mind discussing it further, because it is an interesting issue - so I am game. And I do want to see G's side better, and I think that Anna's post really helps me with that - thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And I need to go out of my way to acknowledge G's point of view, and where her feelings of worry and concern might be coming from. I'll need to do a better job of that.

But, I still don't think that this is the main issue. Here is what I think is the issue:

The very first time I introduced the concept of POJA to G, about six months ago, she kinda balked at it. She said that she would prefer to "take turns" making decisions, rather than shooting for mutual enthusiastic agreement.

I retorted with all the reasons Harley cites for mutual agreement, but G did not seem all that convinced.

So, when I now see at least two issues that we had, that to my way of thinking were perfectly negotiatable (back-east visits and prenups), and yet where G adopted the "non-negotiable" stance, well, yeah, I got concerned. Not for the issues themselves, but for the approach to negotiation, or lack thereof.

BTW, she since has reneged on each one, saying that she is OK with a prenup and with less frequent visits back east - but I don't like that either. She seems to have flipped from "my way" to "your way", but again, that is not POJA. Why not have us talk about it until we are both enthusiastic?

You see, my X had a habit of agreeing to do things my way, but she inevitably kept score, only to give me the scorecard 10 years later. That sucked. So I really want to make sure with G that we do talk about things and reach agreement that we are both happy with, not just one of us. And so far, I have not seen us do this very well on the issues we disagree on. And that bothers me. So I want to work on this some more.

Does that help at all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AGG

Hmm. I'm wondering... We're all MB afficionados, and sometimes, our POJA, EN, LB speak can be off-putting. Why not try reading some good negotiation books together?

The newer ones mostly espouse the win-win approach which is POJA in essence. That way you two are learning together, not you teaching her or G. adopting your approach to negoation.

AGG, just a few comments about the prenup, even though it isn't the main issue. You are hurt and say the prenup isn't about the money, but about your kids. Then you go on to make several comments that show it is about the money (financial ruin, my kids' future, I would not lose half). Really though, how can a prenup not be about money? Any other reason one would arrive at would be through the money.

I caught one of Harley's radio shows last week and he was discussing prenups - he's against them, even in a second marriage where each spouse has prior children to protect. He suggested setting up living trusts instead.

To me, a prenup indicates greed of the person insisting on it. Also, you don't like ultimatums (who does), but that is exactly what a prenup is - agree to my terms or I will not marry you.

Good point, and definitely the last thing I want to do is "educate" G... I have mentioned to G a couple of good books I read, on negotiation, relationships, step-parenting, etc. She is reading one book that she heard about on Oprah, mostly about avoiding "surprises" in a marriage. But we did talk about this very thing, that I have spent much time and effort learning about relationships over the past few years, while she has been mostly doing it by intuition. And her intuition is quite good, I have to grant her that - but as most of us who got divorced after marrying by intuition know, there are some good tools out there as well to give intuition a helping hand <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Good point. Of course a prenup is all about money, in the end. What I was trying to say, and certainly what I meant, was that if this was a matter of me having money and my spouse not having any, I probably would not be even thinking of a prenup (that's how my first marriage was). So, that's what I mean when I say it's not about greed. But yes, having kids, I do have to be responsible for them. Not just financial well-being, but also emotional well-being. Sure, money may help with both, but it's not coming from a sense of greed, but of responsibility.


Well, this is exactly where I am too. I told G in our discussions that I am not at all sure that I want a prenup (as I think I already stated here 10 times, but no one seems to be picking up on this fact, am I speaking too fast? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). What I said was that I wanted to talk to an attorney and understand things like prenups, living trusts, wills, etc. And whatever would seem like the right choice is what we might want to decide on. So, I guess I am agreeing with Harley, yay me!


I don't see it this way at all. A prenup is not an ultimatum, it is an agreement. I suppose some people can use it as an ultimatum, but since I have never said that I want a prenup, I don't see how it can be considered as me making an ultimatum. I simply wanted to have a discussion about the topic and to talk to someone who can help us understand the whole gamut of wills, trusts, etc. better, not to impose any answers.

AGG

AGG --
If any way possible, I would set aside the whole Pre-Nup conversation for now. This is so far ahead of ourselves here its not even funny!

I hardly think the decision has been made for marriage. In fact, it seems like the inability to negotiate and discuss these matters scream that more time is needed before any further marriage talk.

You've gotten a couple of e-mails now that seem to validate that she's at least thinking about your view.

However -- WORDS mean very little -- its whether or not her ACTIONS back it up.

So, I think you are wise to back up a bit. Return to more of a dating mode. Slow down and see whether she walks the talk.

We picked up on it, but it is almost as interesting a subject as your love life, so it's hard to drop it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.



It may not currently (or ever) be an ultimatum for you, but I wonder if it seems like one to G, since she isn't experienced in negotiating for everything.