I think that is a Latina trait ToddAC. Have you ever traveled to South America? Seen size 16 bodies in size 4 spandex?

I'm lost. What is a Latin trait?

I had an eyelash stuck in my right eye. Ouch. Ok, I had to come back so Nam is not disappointed and the tread reachs the 235 in excess.

Pio I have the impression that you keep getting signals from G but somehow the 'recovery' doesn't start. Someone mentioned to you yesterday that you have to guide her and I agree with that point of view. For instance, she says she doesn't want to divorce, instead of saying that you may want to divorce, you explore her thoughts, she doesn't want to divorce, then what does she want? How does she think you two could achieve what she wants? Then you say your mind. What do you want, how do you think it could be achieved... Etc.

This week listering Mb radio it was repeated in several contexts that a couple shouldn't be separated unless there are justified reasons and that a Plan B should be seen as the begining of a divorce. Just the last mesure. Unless blatant continuos infidelity or other problems the couple should remain living together and working on their issues.

Pio going back to your present dilema. I would say that it was a long enough vacation for G to spend time with her family and that the decision to come back to SA should be taken by the two of you together and no by her alone. Also she may not had reached the maturity level to understand that the independent behavior of going to Cancun with her sister is unaceptable but you have a right to tell her so. Nicely. Reclame your place as her husband. Work on the relationship on the process and don't wait anylonger for a declaration from G. She says she doesn't want to divorce. That's good enough to start to see her position on the other issues.

About your feet, they seem fine. I asked BF a pic of his feet to post here. He has lovely feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Personally I preffer square short toe nails. It's ok to have them short if they are cutted frecuently, the risk of them going inside is when they are left to grow after had been cut short for a long while. (This is hillarious.) I think you get extra points for having healthy toe nails, no deformation or other ET organisms. Lol.

Todd I understood the descriptiveness of your comment, ty.
By the way next Mexican night you have to ask for a Hupango, another rythm, very poetic sometimes, and I song that goes like...

Por la lejana montaña
va cabalgando un jinete
vaga solito en el mundo

You take that to the Mariachi and they should know it for sure. Lol.

Sure it wasn't a mote?

Well DDs and I went to Al Zamil store last night (a sort of Saudi version of Hobby Lobby) and we have been making and painting tombstones. In the car on the way back, DD1 said she wished nobody ever had to die. I told her that we all had to die - otherwise there would be no place to park. It was okay to die because then we can go to Heaven. She asked me if I was going to die. I asked her if she was worried about that. She said I had a grey hair. Then she asked me if when mommies and daddies go to Heaven, do they look after their little girls.

Now today she says she hates her sister and DD2 did something to DD1 but neither one is willing to tell me what it was. DD2 got spray paint all over her hands and was tired of painting so I sent her inside. DD1 and I finished the tombstones. I came in and heard DD2 crying. The maid was removing the paint from her hands and feet with a brillo pad. I could have killed her. I will say that DD2 won't need to exfoliate for a while. Poor little thing.

Todd...I am with Pio on this one.... unless you are into torturing yourself!

....particularly if you have made it clear to your WW to only come knocking on your door if she is prepared to consider to meet your conditions for R.



Todd...I don't think he is saying that. You forgot the word you yourself used: POSSIBLE. Problems in a marriage...or difficult periods...do exist in all marriages.... how they are handled is what will make the difference...depending on the people involved..... some turn to A and disconnect further.... some, in the face of problems, unifies them more. In times of problems, the M is vulnerable, which I suppose is why he advocates his 4 rules.... if they are maintained...the risk of M being vulnerable is greatly reduced, and therefore the chance of one of the partner choosing an A would be reduced.

Well just wonderful. I was eating celery taking advantage of WW's absence. She won't let me eat celery or dill pickles. Nothing she can do about it now. Anyway, I was about to throw the ends and leaves away and decided to give them to the hamsters instead. I found that one of the cage doors had been left open. I did a head count and we are sans one hamster. I am furious. Naturally nobody takes credit for leaving the cage door open.

I also found the sprinkler has a hole in it so sprays the neighbor's yard while watering mine. DDs have three friends over playing and it is near chaos. As with everything in Saudi, I just opened the Halloween decorating kit that the DDs wanted last night only to find that all the paint bottles are completely dry. And worse than having a runaway hamster is not knowing whether it is inside or outside. Has anyone ever seen the movie Johnny Got His Gun (1971)? That's all I can think about - Johnny's (Joe's) recurring nightmare.

And as if it couldn't get any worse, I was just soaking my feet and planned to try my new pumice foot scrub. I admit I didn't read the directions when I bought it but apparently I now need something called a loofah.

Oh, this is even better. DDs and friends are playing with the two remaining hamsters. They currently have them on the kitchen floor running lego mazes. Maid decides to take advantage and clean the hamster cages. Well, she found hamster #3. It had passed in its sleep and had a little smile on its face. Now, the bad news...the maid comes back in the house and says "Valeria, I found your hamster. It's dead". Fortunately DD1 didn't hear exactly what she said. I quickly ran out and told the maid to shut up. At least I don't have to think about Joe's nightmare.

Hi Luna,

Affairs also occur in happy marriages not beset with problems. And there are marriages with problems in which affairs never occur and my guess is that there are more marriages with problems which don't experience infidelity than those which do. I don't doubt or question Harley's motive, just his logic.

The reason I like Frank Pittman so much is that he is straight forward and is not a WS apologist. Not even close. Below is part of an article written by Pittman. The italicized portion is the myth of infidelity followed by his correction.

Affairs are ultimately the fault of the cuckold. Patriarchal custom assumes that when a man screws around it must be because of his wife's aesthetic, sexual, or emotional deficiencies. She failed him in some way. And feminist theory has assured us that if a wife screws around it must be because men are such [censored]. Many people believe that screwing around is a normal response to an imperfect marriage and is, by definition, the marriage partner's fault. Friends and relatives, bartenders, therapists, and hairdressers, often reveal their own gender prejudices and distrust of marriage, monogamy, intimacy, and honesty, when they encourage the infidel to put the blame on the cuckold rather than on him or herself.

One trick for avoiding personal blame and responsibility is to blame the marriage itself (too early, too late, too soon after some event) or some unchangeable characteristic of the partner (too old, too tall, too ethnic, too smart, too experienced, too inexperienced). This is both a cop-out and a dead end.

One marriage partner can make the other miserable, but can't make the other unfaithful. (The cuckold is usually not even there when the affair is taking place.) Civilization and marriage require that people behave appropriately however they feel, and that they take full responsibility for their actions. "My wife drove me to it with her nagging"; "I can't help what I do because of what my father did to me"; "She came on to me and her skirt was very short"; "I must be a sex addict"; et cetera. Baloney! If people really can't control their sexual behavior, they should not be permitted to run around loose.

There is no point in holding the cuckold responsible for the infidel's sexual behavior unless the cuckold has total control over the sexual equipment that has run off the road. Only the driver is responsible.

ToddAC,

While I admire your ardor, I have to ask myself what relevance this has to anything that you and I are facing right now. IMO you need to just let this go. Okay so you don't like the kool-aid here. You know my opinion as well. What difference does it make right now why your WW had the affair? It might some day in the future - but not right now.

Good morning/evening y'all (tee,hee this is the only place I use that very usefull word, y'all). My New England born family would look at me askance were I to great them with a y'all. Hey! that might just be fun.

Todd, for the life of me I can't understand why you encourage your WW to repeat herself in a drunken state. Maybe it's a way for you get yourself to find her less attractive.

At one point in the course of one our dead end discussions about our relationship I said to then h who had a blank yet deer in the head lights look "When I see that expression on your face I want to bash your face in.". This in a marriage characterized by non-confrontation. My point is that I used to conjur up that look when I wanted to have another fruitless R talk with then h. I digress.

My main question to you Todd is, if your WW is an alcholic & all bets are off concerning the recovery of your marriage until she deals with that, why do you think she can be rational? One of the very first things competent therapists say is what ever addictions are in place must be dealt with BEFORE the marriage can be worked on in a meaningful way.

I agree with you about the WS taking full responsibility for an affair despite the state of the marriage. My opinion is affair people are in a selfish state. They see difficulties & run because they don't have the inner strength to deal with them. Couple that with their feeling of entitlement, the feeling they are owed something eciting which you aren't providing, something just for them etc. Off they go to the greener side.

A marriage can be in a bad place & if we don't take it head on the selfish child, as kiwi pointed out, goes in search of a feel better fix. That is the WS's choice & theirs alone.

Pio, you asked why your WW's behavior bothered you. I'll take a stab at that.
1. She wants to come back because she's bored. Not a lot of growth in terms of examining her behavior.
2. She wants a vacation in Cancun after her vacation in Mexico. This after you expected her Mexico visit to be a time for her to get her s..t together regarding your marriage.

It started with larousse, I believe, suggesting that I get IC with Harley. Since then, I have been answering questions.

Know what I expect/am waiting for from WW? For her to say that she had the affair because she was attracted to OM, felt lusty and wanted to hop in bed with him. Just as Pittman's article depicts, WW blames her affair on me.

Even though my ex WS never admitted to his affair, well current live in GF, he blamed me in his passive aggressive way while in MCing. Take responsibility? Pah leeeze! Just as he didn't have the inner strength to deal with our marital problems he didn't/doesn't have the inner strength to admit he was the weak one, the selfish one, to seek out another person.

Todd, though you may want the truth from your WW doesn't mean she has the capacity to provide it.

It would be nice, & I would like that for myself as well, but I had to move on without it. As you'll notice though I'm still dealing with it & not always in a non-angry way.

Myabe , just maybe Gemela wants to come back, because she is really regrettfull and really misses her family. She needs the benefit of the doubt. Pio will not know this, until he sees Gemela in front of him and hears her talk and sees her body language. Pio is bothered by what Gemela says, because he has already given up any hope of recovery for his marriage. He already "mentally" divorced Gemela. She emptied completely his love bank. Of course this is Gemela's fault, not Pio's.

Just like the Brad Pitt thing. I am not sure what importance it had today. Maybe it was just the tequila talking. That was a conversation I had with WW who should not have even been there. She should have gone to Mexico and not been with me in Houston. It was a fairly emotional time for me. It is also long past and I don't feel it was indicative of a deeper character trait.

We have to accept that, for whatever reason, our WW's cheated on us. Nobody put a gun to their head. My WW invited pool boy over to the house knowing full well what was going to happen - she told me this. It was no accident. If she was unhappy in the marriage, there were other choices - including divorce. She can have one now if she wants.

What I have been asking myself the past day is why I would ever want her back? She has hurt me more than anyone ever could. She has not the slightest remorse. She would take up her A again in a heartbeat given the opportunity. She makes me miserable when she is around because I know she lies. What surprise does she have in store for me next? Basically I think she has zero respect for me. And, after all that, I should just welcome her with open arms? What is my motivation?

Sorry for the vent. I have been really depressed all day after reading a particular post. Just pretend I'm not here.

ARE YOU talking about my post? If is my post that depressed you, I am sorry, did not mean to.

Le diste al clavo. I will give her the opportunity to speak. I will listen and make no LB's, DJ's. I honestly do want to hear what she has to say. I promised her when I spoke to her that she would get that chance. I promised her that I will wait to decide what I want until after she speaks. That's all I can offer right now. I think it is more than fair.

Thanks for understanding Myrta.

Well, I am glad that you are giving her the opportunity to show whats really on her mind. Maybe she has really analized her mistakes and is truly regrettful.........or maybe not. But you will not know this until you see and hear her.

I'm sorry you're depressed Pio but it's to be expected, no?

Do what you have to do to answer the question do you want G back. You're not afraid to ask yourself the hard questions. Do you want her back because going through a D is horrible? Or do you truly love her? Does she need to change into another person for you to want her for a W? Is she capable of that?

Try to keep bitterness out of your internal debate otherwise it with color your perceptions & your desires.

Are you interested in sharing what post had this effect?

No not you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> OH OK!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Let's see what she says when she gets back. I am not afraid of divorce if it comes to that.

It is difficult for a WW to not empty the BH's love bank. It is the only logical result from continued betrayal.