Todd, hate to disappoint you but

Lambada-Brasil

Nunca en domingo-Greece

Malagueña-Spain

That Mariachi is versatil. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Todd - a Geomatic Engineer - a Surveyor by any other name although I work in the mining industry these days with GPS based machine control systems for large pieces of earthmoving equipment.

ToddAC,

All waywards do this. Yours is no different. I wouldn't expect her to change her tune for a very long time. But bigK says that revelation may occur well after recovery has started. It shouldn't be a prerequisite for you. If it is, you will never move from where you are.

Why not POJA some "reasonable" guidelines to begin R with WW? I still can't figure out what it is you want. You are kinda all over the map on this. And I have to tell you that sooner or later those Mariachis are going to get pretty boring.

Exactly Pio - I think every BS starts by blaming themselves after D-Day. The WS certainly blames the BS because they have to justify their actions. Really it took my wife 6 months to truely "get it" to my satisfaction. Now she owns it all. But I readily agree I was equally responsible for the state of our marriage pre-affair just as she admits the affair was totally her choice.

I don't at all think that missing EN's from a marriage cause all affairs, but I do think in any affair EN's are met by the affair partner better than they are being met in the marriage.

Even in an otherwise good marriage there are ebs and flows. Sometimes the ebs coincide with an affair being offered. I don't know.

What I do know is that my wife won't be stupid enough to fall for that again.

There are a few issues. One is her drinking. I will discuss it with her but in the past my attempts have been in vain. Another is the fact that WW is currently in the mode of denying that an affair ever occurred. She says that OM was impotent due to prostate cancer in the past. She claims that they were just friends and all they did was make out. So, secondly, I want honesty. I don't believe R can be built on a foundation of lies. Finally, I want her to agree to basic conditions like IC/MC, NC, transparency, etc. She had resisted those in the past.

Which of the above is confusing and/or unreasonable?

You have the order backward.



Shouldn't be finally - it should be firstly



This is the one I think you have to allow her and it is the hardest one for you to swallow. I think honesty will come in time but you need to allow that time and not force the issue.



Wht not bring this up in IC/MC rather than confronting it yourself? Why say "I won't R until you stop drinking"?

Then what if you do get agreement on NC and she breaks it (as she likely will)? What are you prepared to do? That is a critical question to already be prepared for. Bigger gave me good advice on that and I think I followed it finally.

Problem is you have been hurt as nobody should be hurt and you want retribution. You want vindication because you are still a little guilty for having moved out based on the reaction from your sons after-the-fact. I believe that as R develops you will get all those things. But I don't think you will get them from day one.

Look at it from the wayward's perspective. If I suddenly woke up to the fact that I had betrayed the only one who truly loved me, abandoned my family, abandoned my very beliefs and morals, I think I might put a gun to my head. Denial is a very effective defense mechanism. Cut her some slack.

Two reasons. She will not go to IC/MC. Doesn't Dr. Harley say that you cannot reconcile with an alcoholic until they address their addiction?



I just cannot move forward with R based on lies.


I am not guilty about moving out in the least.

Hi 2much,



...my guess is...he put in some family time....so he will feel less guilty about given 'himself' time to do what he wants!



Boy!.....you are right, 2much, you are on a roll....you're giving Pio some great advice, I think!

Hi Todd,



...small victories are my thing, too! ...just love them when they happen! ...they actually take me a while to come up with....and so..all the sweeter!

Hi Pio,



...this just reminded me...I just checked out LA's thread 'owning all your villagers'....thought I would start the exercise suggested....then I realized that all the characteristics that I dislike about others, not to say hated, are nothing less than characteristics about MYSELF! ...now...I do intend to pursue it and see where it goes....just to be fair to LA (whom I deeply trust)...but is/has anyone here done it? ...an can you reassure that I won't end up hating myself? ...because at some point I will need to be able to look at myself in the mirror! LOL.

....and it looks like from the thread's name.....although we don't know it..... we have a whole 'village' inside of us!...learn something everyday!



Pio...looks like your catching on! ....and as LA would say.... you will love your DDs....ANYWAY!



...OOOHHHH! ....one thing kids do best.....how to hit the spot!

Pio,

....and I suppose the rest of us are just chopped liver!

...I take that back...mp3 stuff?? way over my head!


I agree, Pio, I don't think a separation with a termination date is effective..... PLAN B's termination date is either WS coming back deciding to meet 'minimum' conditions for R...or it will eventually lead to D...... a separation with a termination date...is really that...a vacation...which is OK....but...not much movement can be expected.


...now....that's a plan!

Hi Todd,

[/quote] I guess my problem these days is that WW is trying to place all the blame for her affair on me.
[/quote]

...how about just getting your WW to committ to N/C with OM...and that as a married woman...she can no longer play the field....

...I would agree with...I guess that would be BigK.....if you are expecting her to take responsibility for A...FIRST....you may wait a long time! ....I think this...like remorse....comes much later on in recovery...when FWS feel....safe....to admit it!


Yeap...so true.....my WS is deep in it!

Hhhuuuu......finally got caught up....I think....but then, this post took me forever....I suspect a couple of pages have been added... keeping up with this thread can be a f/t job!

Todd,


...it sounds like this may be one of your boundaries that needs to be respected for you to move forward..what would be called a 'dealbreaker'... and since your WS is not prepared to 'come clean' (at least, not for now)....you may be headed for D

ToddAC,

I agree with lunamare. I just think you have set the bar too high. We are all different. Your sons are all grown. You have much less to lose in terms of D - especially since most of what you had went in the garage sale. I have to consider that I still have two young girls. I can't set my bar that high. It is your decision and I understand it and don't deny your right to make it. But if this is a dealbreaker, then D is your only future. In my case, I would pursue R and, if at some point in the future I could not get 100% honesty, then I would D. I just can't draw this particular line in the sand.

I already posted the URL. Go click it. I uploaded the file at lunch.

No I have never looked at the thread. This is not meant to be disrespectful and I am not sure how to word it correctly but I discovered several months ago that, no matter how hard I try, I will never understand LA's language. Probably just a deficiency in me that I have to accept.

I totally agree that you should not feel guilty for it.

I don't accept that you don't harbor some guilty feelings for having done it. (Unjustified feelings). But, if you say so, I'll take your word for it.

This is where I think the Pittman plan hurts you.

R is not something that you and WW are just going to decide - hey, today we begin R. There are a few steps missing before R begins and I still don't think many WW's come completely clean until well into R.

But I don't think you have been too interested in R for the sake of your M for a very long time. You feel forced into R for the sake of your children.

Hi Pio,



...sounds like a good plan for you Pio. It's more or less the same reasoning for my being in PLAN B.....and not yet asking for D.... I have nothing to lose to wait out the suggested 2 yrs mark..... and I won't need to worry about having 'rushed' into D..... in the meantime....I am not dealing with a WS..... the OW is.... and if that's all he can be...meaning, a JERK....she can have him!

...but Pio...you need to figure out how you are going to handle your Taker....who I believe is at the source of the LBusters.....

Please come and vent here.....and do try to be a 'soft spot' for G.....IF you want to consider R of your M.....

Openess and Honesty is one thing......LoveBusters are death to R.....

BTW....I will have to 'sacrifice' myself, again, for work-related reasons and will have to get my 'butt' off from my comfortable 'chez moi' in Quebec.... and travel to the San Francisco area.....which will make it the my second time this year I am going to CA....plan to take a few extra days to discover San Francisco.....never been there...

Besides having to leave my 'heart' there..... any suggestions of where to stay (affordable, it's on my budget), what to see and eat...would be very much appreciated!

Plan to explore the hilly streets I saw in some of those action films....I believe a well-known one was by...Steve McQueen? ....by the way....saw his bio....a real womanizer that Steve!

Spoke to WW again. I have really tried to set a better tone for the conversations and her voice was much better this time. We talked about her plans and it looks like she will be coming back more or less October 10th. Basically it is getting to late to try to do to many changes to the reservations. I asked her to be very clear with the DDs what her plans were and why and all would be good. She did explain to DD1 her new plan and DD1 seems okay with it. So am I.

Our conversations are mainly functional but the tone is good. Yes I will vent here but just be prepared. I can really vent.

OK, Pio...we have been warned...better here than with G.... since we are 'chopped liver' to you, anyway! LOL.

I happen to have a techie problem... before I call out S.O.S. to my usual 'techie' friend....since he is 'in love' these days and a little busy..... I will pass it by you guys, literally! (....and, no, I am not referring to WS.....he has 'zero' knowledge of computers! ...and anyways....I would be prepared to PAY someone before asking WS for help!) ...unfortunately though, my 'techie' friend has also been a WBF but is trying to 'straighten' out and start a relationship the 'normal' way.....as opposed to being a WBF....obviously, he has my support...because'when you know better, you do better' (hopefully!)....I believe credit for that goes to one of Oprah's poet friends...Maya Angelou (sp???) ...and now has first-hand knowledge of how damaging an A can be.....he 'hates' what WS is doing to me and boys.....

My Norton anti-virus has 'quarantined' files that are infected with various worms....and it seems, it was able to repair 9 out of the 10 files....only one is unrepairable and so have this one constant dialogue box that keeps reminding me of it, and it says:
--------------------------------------------------------
Norton AntiVirus
(BIG X) High Risk
Norton AntiVirus has detected a virus on your computer.

Object Name: C:ProgramFiles/M.../msnmsgr.exe
Virus Name: Trojan Horse
Action Taken: Unable to repair this file.

(OK)
---------------------------------------------------------

Even though it says 'OK'.....I know that the Trojans had BIIIIIGGG problems with the horse.......and so it can't be good!

My techies at the office would have no problem figuring out what to do....and like magic...it would be fixed.....but their services do not extent to 'home computers' of employees, as this is on my home computer...

...and seeing the name of the infected file, I think I know enough of computers that an '.exe' file is an execution file?? and I don't think I can do without it..... and I do think it's related to my DS15 chatting group on MSN...... and that is the extent of my computer knowledge...... other than to know when to cry 'HELP!'