Wrong Nams. I don't assume love. My wife HATED me when she finished her affair and came home. I assume NO love. I assume NOTHING other than a willingness to attempt recovery.

Oh and Stef - very proud of you. But you have to tell us what DID happen now

Your son, like my three boys, will have to deal with this in his way & in his time. But faking something for the sake what he thought was there? I don't know...sounds like a friend of mine who tried to keep her 11 year old son from figuring out there was no Santa. Not within her control.

And...believe I KNOW your heart break concerning your sons. I spent many nights sitting on my youngest son's bed talking about the break up of the family.

I would not suggest a loveless marriage is a viable option either

And faking it till you make it has merit - it works.

I mean Todd feeling love for his WW. It sounds like he wants the marriage for reasons other than he REALLY wants to be with his wife because he loves her.

Todds reasons for attempting recovery are irrelavent. See that's the trick of the Harley plan - you follow it and it works. It's like a formular:

2People + following harley = loving marriage

doesn't even matter if the 2 people believe it can happen or want it to happen. You do the work, you get the result. Like it or not.

Yes, I've faked it until I made it earlier on in my marriage so I know first hand it can work.

I talking here about fundamental differences. Todd has shared a lot about his WW's characteristics. Many of which are ingrained, many seem to be habit, many he doesn't like & feel will not change. Is he working toward the recovery of a good marriage prior to the infidelity? Maybe prior to what led to infidelity?

Well Todd can't do anything by himself. His wife has to want to make it work and be willing to change as well at some point or recovery is impossible. (Note his wife being willing is not a prerequisite to start recovery though - although in Todds case that may well be a requirement)

My wife, in our case had no interest in me, our marriage or anything other than she knew she had to give our marriage another try. That was enough for us to start recovery. After around 6 weeks we found MB and worked the program. 1 year later our marriage and love is unmistakable.

Interesting BigK, this formula approach was one of ex's main objections to Harley's plan. He said it looks like you can take any two people, stick them together, meet EN's & you have a loving relationship.

There is something to be said for meeting ENs in a desirous way. Not only because you know it's a formula that works but with passion & love. I understand that may come in time, but how much is forced?

You had the participation of your wife & she apparently understood & was willing to put in the work. An alcoholic or people with other major issues who are unwilling to address those problems will not be in a position to make the formula work. Even when they say they want the marriage.

Ouch! Ouch!! Nams, don't hit me anymore. Your phrase, "don't like to lose" made me think of the Jackson Browne's lyrics from "Your Bright Baby Blues".

I can see it in your eyes
You've got those bright baby blues
You don't see what you've got to gain
But you don't like to lose
You watch yourself from the sidelines
Like your life is a game you don't mind playing
To keep yourself amused
I don't mean to be cruel baby
But you're looking confused

I do not like to lose as a matter of fact. And yes, as Jackson suggested, I am confused. But again, I was very content to walk away from my marriage in March. Had it not been for DS3's "urging" I would have never talked to WW again until it was time for D. I do not know. I am confused.



No afraid not. I am sure DS2 does. He also plays guitar and played in a band while in college.

That's the most intelligent thing you have said in...in...hang on...why is google taking this long?...well, I'll get back to you on that.

I would go a bit further. I would say it is impossible to see the end from the beginning.

At first it was TOTALLY forced. And your ex was right.

Take any 2 people, meet EN's etc => Love I mean Harley does talk about some basic compatibility issues in "Buyers Renters and Freeloaders" but essentially, forget the soulmate idea, any 2 people will fall in love under the right circumstances. In the case of married people, they fell in love once and they can again.

When 2 people hate each other, there is no desire to meet EN's. But if they make a decision to meet EN's regardless of their desires, they can and will fall in love again. Without going over the top personal, my wife would not let me touch her in any way for weeks. But eventually, she made a decision that if we were indeed going to be married, just maybe sex was important. So essentially, she decided to start having sex with me again. Mind you it was pretty forced for her - but it bonded us somewhat. But it was very vanilla with minimal touching or anything other than the job at hand. Pretty mechanical. But she did it. Deliberately meeting my top EN.

HELLOOOO??? That is what the A is. Of course you can do that.

Yes any type of addiction makes recovery impossible - lovers, alcohol, drugs etc. All must be dealt with before marital recovery is possible.

My ex said he felt he had to give our marriage a try but that didn't include a lot of things that had to be in place for recovery to actually work.

It sounds like Todd's WW may have some things that must be in place for them to recover but is unwilling to do that work. If one's heart isn't truely in the recovery the long term won't be what they want.

As to Todd's reasons for recovery being irrelevant...I don't think so. He can work to save the marriage for his son, that's not a reason in the long run that will give him the partner he wants.

OK, I'm tired & really, really need to go to bed.

Goodnight BigK & Todd.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ignoring the post above and moving right along.



This was exactly what happened in my case. I also drink a bottle of wine most nights. I don't turn into anything but a chatty drunk. I also smoke like a chimney.

I never said it was a good enough reason long term.

I say unless you are in love with your partner and have a great marriage, long term it is pointless being together. - Long term the reasons that cause you to decide to recover don't wash. You have to be in love to stay married IMO.