I think ALL As are about the WS.

Symptoms of problems.

The fever of the disease, not the disease itself.

Is it an issue that you're older than he is?

WAT

Don't think so.

Well, two possible responses:

1. "My letter was clear. I'm done [censored] footing around. You know who I am and what I have to offer. Let me know when you're ready to REALLY talk" or,

2. "Thanks, I'll see you there." Be ready to deliver a chit or get off the pot speech.

JMHO

Sorry, Liz - I think you need to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise, this non-commital will continue. I guess you need to decide how long you're willing to remain in limbo. Right now, he's in control of your life.

WAT

I have chosen option #2. However I have plans on Sunday, so I called to reschedule. His home phone was busy so I knew he was on the computer and his cell went to voice message. I put on my shoes and some lipstick...alll fired up to go over to his apartment and do this NOW.

But.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />YIPPEEEEEEE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!!!! I stopped myself.

I took a deep breath, sat down, and stopped myself from going over there.

An half-hour later he called and we rescheduled for tomorrow. To do it here because a private talk shouldn't be held in public.

That is when I will give him the chit or get off the pot speech. I really liked the wording for option #1 - may work that in there too.

Bumping for more feedback^^^

Met with WH for 2 hours today.

After doing LA's exercise, I found myself in a different place.

I am very pleased with the way I handled myself. Calm, honest, self-assured, and unwavering in what it is that I need. No LB, no DJ. No attempts at manipulation or forcing.
The ball is firmly in his court.

He told me about this OW#2. She has no idea of what is going on with us - only that he is seperated.

Much honesty and open discussion on his part. I was surprised.

I told him that I am taking back my life.

I left him with 3 options:
1. Commit to our marriage.
2. Divorce me.
3. Continue to pretend that he is not married.

Options 2 and 3 allow for no contact with me whatsoever.

So, we'll see. I am out of the triangle.

Lizzie,

My WH said there was too much damage done...coming back to the marriage would be more pain and suffering...why do that?

At first, I attempted to invalidate his perspective and belief...what wasn't respectful of me...and all it did was to validate more of his perspective.

sad LOL here

I went out on a ledge and asked him to do a marriage weekend seminar and he said he'd consider it...then said no. We had an intense meeting in the parking lot of my work after we signed refi papers on our house, which freed him to be with OW and divorce me...and blessed by God, I mostly listened and repeated...heard he couldn't decide between OW and me (held his palms up, even, as if weighing us) because he had feelings for both of us.

What came out of my mouth, past a lot of rage, deep fear and pain was..."Want to go to counseling? I said no when you asked during my A, and I was wrong."

Yeah, still manipulative...

And he said, "Find a counselor and I'll go."

I had one in four days.

He wasn't committing to returning to the marriage...just counseling...and when the counselor asked him what his goal was, he said "To decide to be with OW, be alone or work on my marriage."

He said he would go to weekly counseling and decide by the first of the year (three months)...

Could you do that? Doesn't that smack of attack, lack of respect? That is when I truly Plan A'd because even if he chose to work on the marriage, it would only be for two years...and then he'd decide if he wanted to divorce or not. If things could work, IF his belief of more pain and suffering (great P/A behavior tactic) proved true or not; and IF damage could be repaired, inside and out.

I found no shame in waiting, because MB brought me a respectful life and I took it. This was all about HIM, not OW, not me causing him...his choices. I knew my own and made them...every step.

What my WH was hearing was, "Come back to old stuff, be my old H and let's live the old crap again." I couldn't control that...and I wrote as many words as you did in your first letter, your latest letter...which was a DJ in my mind because I was still trying to make him stop choosing what he was choosing...which was my fantasy.

I wanted to show you choices in between all back or all gone...

And I want to ask you, is OM married?

I don't know if I conveyed what I considered the pivotal point in making our recovery possible well enough...I listened and did not DJ his statement that he was struggling in his choice...feeling the full-throttle blow of being even with a woman of two weeks after 15 years of marriage...and remaining calm...hearing it...and asking for counseling to help us decide...our own choices.

LA

No, OM wasn't married.

WH has said no repeatedly to counseling. I go to counseling on my own.

Are you saying that I don't ask him to stay away? To Plan A when I have the opportunity to? Doesn't that just promote fence-sitting?

Are you saying the fence-sitting is OK and I don't have to try to control that?

I mostly listened and repeated today as well.

I asked for a year but stressed that I didn't want the old marriage back.

I will not file for divorce...that is my choice.

When he told me he didn't know what he wanted, I told him that I understood, that it is up to him if he wants to figure it out or not.

Did I miss your pivotal point?

Have you asked WH if he would consider going to MC to figure out what he wants? Stated in that way? Again, limited to my road...

What you say in your last posts sounds very different from this to me:

"I left him with 3 options:
1. Commit to our marriage.
2. Divorce me.
3. Continue to pretend that he is not married.

Options 2 and 3 allow for no contact with me whatsoever."

I couldn't control my WH's fence-sitting; in my case, I could choose to see it as that, and off and on, I did; or to see him with his own goal of figuring it out. It helped that within three weeks of counseling, he chose to move back in, albeit in a separate room, and he made clear that living at home was for our son's sake (our youngest) and not an action taken in recommitting to the marriage...

I am not promoting Plan A again, or Plan B again or really, anything...you know the plans...you're working this your way--I guess I am still focusing on you, your choices, your chosen perspective...

Pivotal point...what did you hear your WH say today?

LA

That he loves me

That he is unsure if he wants to try again

That he is scared...of failing...of trying...of not trying

That his newest relationship doesn't involve making any of these choices...he hasn't told her any of "this"

That he will consider things

That he enjoyed spending time with me today

That he is worried that he has a "character flaw"

That he is afraid of being judged - by me and others - and found wanting

That he had hoped that I would file for divorce and then he wouldn't have to make any choices

The 3 choices were not issued in ultimatum form but rather as the possible outcomes for this situation.

So, let me make sure I understand:

He doesn't want to file, because he's indecisive - he'd rather you have that burden.

He's OK with "using" another OW in the meantime - purely for his ego.

He's not sure he wants to work on a relationship with you.

An indecisive coward?

And further, he's NOT the father of your children.

Do I have that right?

Assuming I do, exactly why do you want to have a relationship with him? Why do you want to give him another second of your time? - in light of all you've given him so far?

WAT

WAT,

As always I appreciate your directness.

Why waste any more time?

I guess it depends on how you define waste. My plan now is to work on taking care of me and my sons.

All of the things you say are true....they also indicate that he is not thinking rationally...

As for "using" another person for his own ego...that was something that I just did as well...looking to have EN's filled.

Why wait? Because 8 years ago I vowed to love, honor, and cherish...for better or worse.

Because up until his affair, our relationship was better than anything I could have imagined.

I have determined my position, set my boundaries, and I feel at peace with that. This is a good exercise in patience for me...something that I sorely need.

I have been doing fairly well. Went to a birthday party on Sunday and had FUN. I have been taking a lot of time for myself and saying the Serenity prayer a hunderd times a day.

I am officially on vacation for 2 weeks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. The boys and I are planning a trip to my mom's and the beach next week.

I am getting ready for my annual party this weekend. That makes me feel a little sad. It has been something that my WH and I did every year...pretty much a family reunion. People come from several different states and pitch tents or park campers. We eat and drink and swim. It has always been one of the best parts of the year.

I had almost decided to not do it this year as the "family" is WH's family. But a couple of months ago, people started calling and asking if I had chosen a date.

So this weekend will be bittersweet...same party, same family members; most of WH's co-workers are still coming. It's nice to have their support, yet I know I will miss my husband.

My A with OM - what I referred to as "dating" - has come back to haunt me. I have been approached again for several dates because I portrayed myself as available. So, I have had to constantly repeat my position again. People tell me I'm crazy (they agree with you WAT), but I feel like I can continue to wait. I have come to realize that I will be OK no matter how it all turns out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.

I don't think you're crazy, Lizzie.

I just know that it's normal to cling to hope.

I'm still convinced you're a classy lady and in time you'll come to a good place.

WAT

Maybe hoping IS what I'm doing - not sure about that.

I know that even if he chooses the marriage, a lot of work will need to be done.

I am in a place where I BELIEVE that this has happened for a reason, instead of just giving that idea lip service.

Either way, I am getting to a better place for me. I have identified several areas in myself that I need to accept and/or change.

You're a good judge of character WAT - I am a classy lady who is trying to rise above her mistakes, trying to come to terms with the lemons I have been handed, and trying to remember how to make lemonade <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

As always, thanks for taking the time to respond. It's nice to know that someone cares.

Well, I made it through the annual party alone. Actually, I did better than just make it through. I thoroughly enjoyed myself!

Alcohol tends to loosen tongues and I had a lot of people open up and tell me how they felt about my situation. My one BIL actually said that my WH has been pretty closed off most of his life...that it was only with me that he became so open.

He is definitely a cave dweller. He has been in his apartment for 6 months now and no one has even been invited there. I am the only one who knows where it is. His mom, one of his brothers, and me are the only ones with his number.

Some of my WH's coworkers showed up as well. One of them - the one who I speak with fairly often - said WH asked him where he was going when he left the party of a different coworker. This man told him he was coming to my party. WH said nothing but coworker said he didn't look too happy about it.

This other person's party was the one that I had heard WH was going to bring someone to. That was how I found out he was seeing someone new. However, he was there alone. Don't know if that means anything or not. Perhaps he saw my point that it would be disrespectful to me to parade someone around as his girlfriend while still married to me....or maybe he was afraid one of his coworkers would let the cat out of the bag <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />.

Black Crowes concert was awesome...went with my oldest son.

Having dinner with my daughter tonight.

Taking my 2 youngest sons to the beach for a few days this week.

Trying to stay busy and stay focused on me.

Keep it up, Lizzie. You'll get there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT
------------------
The harder you work, the luckier you get.

My trip to the beach has to be rescheduled. My mom (3 hours away) needs my help with some things.

I am working on being patient and being centered...focusing on me and my sons.

There is this thin film of sadness that seems to lay over everything that I am doing.

That is not to say that I am not happy...because there are times that I truly feel happy. I am trying to focus more on what is right in my life than what is wrong...

but I am grieving...I am sad...

I used to be able to turn to my H for support and comfort.

He was my best friend...I miss that.

I miss being his wife.

I know we can't say anything that will make it better. It's hard to know just want to say.

How about if we just listen, and let you know we care.

Wishing you well - knowing it will take time.

SS

Thanks SS. It's nice to know that I am not alone.

Just got back from my mom's...very exhausting. Over the past couple of years, our roles have reversed...she is more and more like a child and I have become the parent. That sucks sometimes - like now - when I would love nothing more than to be a little girl again and have her hug me and rub my hair and tell me everything is going to be alright.

I put on a good face for my children, my H's family (because I know they are hurting, too), and at work.

Nights are hard, however. My sleep is broken up and all I seem to do is dream.

I remember having a dream a couple of years ago that my H was having an affair. I woke up very upset and when I told him about it, he just held me and reassured me.

Then I had a dream that he left me....and he did.

Then I had a dream that he came to me and he wanted to comne back...and he did...for a little while.

Last night I had a dream that he told me he wanted a divorce.....

I know this is ridiculous, that I am making connections where there are none, but there have been a lot of things that have happened in my life that I had dreamt about beforehand.

So, that is what is weighing on my mind tonight.