Good JOB! How do you feel? Empowered? Like you are doing the right thing?

That's all that matters, and I think that you're thoughts are clear.

I know that you will be fine...

You have put your heart out there more than once. I see why you are a little afraid to try it again.

We never really know when we begin a marriage what is going to happen to us. I think if we could know the trials up front, we'd all sit home with the doors locked afraid to live.

Don't ever be afraid to live. You have the right approach - It looks to me like you put your heart into every thing you do. Sometimes it doesn't work for us, but when it does work, the rewards are worth the gamble.

I tend to think you will find the rewards you are looking for if you keep trying with the same care and passion.

God be with you.

SS

Still haven't sent the email. I want to sit with it a little bit longer.

Wondering if it is too wordy.

Maybe not wordy enough.

Got an email from BIL tonight. He asked WH to go somewhere tomorrow, but WH said he didn't want to make any plans because he was waiting to hear from me. BIL wrote "just wanted you to know". He's not pushing me into anything. He has been very supportive. But I know he is worried about WH's lack of involvement with the world of the living.

Even knowing that, I am still waiting to send the e-mail. Not really sure what I am waiting for.

It reads well, but it depends more on what he is like.

I wonder if it really matters......... if it is in reality a good bye letter.

Will it make a difference what he thinks, or how he reacts?

Are you secretly hoping he'll read it and commit?

Please understand I'm not trying to jerk you around, or teach you anything with this. Just think about it a little bit. I think you already know what you need to know.

For the record, I think sitting on things of this nature is always a wise course of action.

It helps us avoid rushing in where angels fear to tread.

How are YOU feeling about it. What are your thoughts?

SS

I wonder if it really matters......... if it is in reality a good bye letter.

That was my intent...yet....

Are you secretly hoping he'll read it and commit?

Maybe a tiny little part of me...the part that felt like he rejected me would like to feel accepted and "worthy"....even though I know I don't need his validation because I am worthy....

and then I think..if he does do that....then what?

I don't think this is what I want anymore. I feel like we missed our opportunity....that we (me and the boys) are beyond repairing this even though SH says it can be done.

I don't want revenge...I am not looking for retaliation. I found out that only hurts me more...violates who I am as a person.

I think you already know what you need to know.

That I am beating a dead horse?

For the record, I think sitting on things of this nature is always a wise course of action.

One of my biggest changes...not needing to DO all the time, trying not to react.

well, did you sent it? What are you doing this weekend?

I'm nervous to hear. I mean it's Sunday...what's up?

My foot's going to be shaking until I hear from you! LOL

Lizzie,

Thank you for the call out...I've been following you (please don't report me) but haven't contributed...again, you have SS here...I learned a lot of what I believe from reading his posts...especially through graycloud's journey...which mirrors your own, I believe, in a lot of ways.

What I hear you saying is you're done...there is nothing WH could do because you don't want it...and yet you do want it...am I offbase? When someone cannot define their own heart's desire, then how can I support them to achieve it?

If I could better understand your goal in your email...I would feel better about commenting.

What is your goal? (And as far as BIL's nudge on it...that's an untruth. Your WH is choosing not to do something because he's choosing not to do something...he's choosing to wait to make plans dependent on your answer. Doesn't make you responsible for anything at all. No rush.)

This is what SS is saying, too, I believe...go to your highest honesty and we will support you in living it. Do not be afraid to know it, accept and go with it.

Let me in on it, 'k?

LA

I sent the letter to WH with a few changes:

"WH,

Thanks for the e-mail. I did talk to Steve Harley and he suggested that we talk.

Yes, I have waited a long time. I wanted it to work out, and for us to be together. You said you told Steve you thought I was crazy for waiting so long. I'm sure there are many who would agree with you, but I look at it as me being me - true to who I am. I have never been a quitter, and when the going gets tough or something needs to be done, I roll up my sleeves and get in there.

I didn't want to throw away what we had, but neither did I want to hang on to something that was dead. That was why I asked you to talk with Steve Harley. Not to change your mind (you told me it wouldn't) and not to try to force you or convince you to be with me ( I told you I didn't want you back under those terms). It was for me. It was so that I would know that I had said and done all that I could so I would never look back and wonder. You did that for me. Thank you. It brings me much peace to know that you had available to you the same information that I did.

I can be just friends with almost anyone. I have many people whom I can and do spend time with and have fun. If I am going to be married to someone it has to be a lot more than that.

I want to be with someone who chooses me - first and foremost - every single day. I want someone to sleep with at night and wake up next to each morning. Someone to grow old with, someone who will be my very best friend, someone commited to me, someone who is honest with me that I can count on, someone that I can share everything with, and someone who will go all out to make sure that it works.

I waited for you because we used to have that and because I wanted you that much. I have realized that I want someone who wants me that much, and if you don't, then what have I really got?

That was my birthday present to me....knowing who I am, what I have to offer, and what it is that I want. More importantly, I know what I don't want. I don't want to be second best or a consolation prize. I don't want games or secrets or to have to pretend. I want something and someone real - even when it hurts.

I don't want to be married to someone else's boyfriend.

You are only offering me more of the same heartache that I have been living with for the past year. I hear that you are struggling with your feelings, however, I am very clear about mine. I cannnot see you as a "friend", I am not willing to date you or pretend like your affair and all of the lies haven't happened, nor can I put my heart out there again while you try to figure things out. It hurts me too much to see you and spend time with you with all of these unresolved issues. I can't and won't do that to myself.

I want to get on with my life. I have been alone for close to a year now; longer if you count the distance that began when you started your affair. I'm ready to move on. Given that things are what they are, I think we should divorce. I am willing to agree to an uncontested divorce in order to keep the cost down. I could set up an appointment for a Friday afternoon. There is no charge for the consultation. Please let me know if this is agreeable.

I'm praying for you and hoping you find what it is you are looking for.

Elizabeth"


Then got this back in response:

"You told me you would never ask for a divorce. I am asking to see you because I am not ready for one. Even though I've been gone awhile now, I have never stopped thinking of you. I have also never stopped loving you. I am sorry and apologize to you for the choices I've made over the past year. Someday I hope I can even rationalize them. I'm asking to have fun because I would like our "love banks" to replenish themselves before we get into what happened. The last time we tried it you pushed too hard and I ran away. I don't want that to happen this time. I don't want the events of the past year to drive us any further apart than what we are right now. I would like us to start working back toward each other. I had a great time with you that day we spent riding around in Vermont. I restrained a lot of feelings that weekend and that is not what I want to do anymore. I am sorry it has taken so long to realize it, but I am not yet ready to throw in the towel on our marriage. Are you sure that you are?"

My highest honesty LA is that I am afraid and unsure. I go back and forth on what it is I want.

Absolute truths:

I do not want more of the same.

I will only accept 100% commitment.

I am afraid of how another try will affect me.

I am really afraid of how another try would affect the boys.

I have gotten to a place of peace and happiness that i hadn't felt for the past year. I want to protect that and don't know if I can were I to try again.

I do still love my H, but unsure if enough is left to build on.

Seems like cutting my losses is the easiest (safest) way to go.

I think that even his last response sounds like more of the same.

Lizzie,

To me, your WH replied that he wants a trial run...he would like to also know what coming back would be...what the future looks like...seems you both share that desire.

He wants to see if love deposits can be made...I believe this is a foggy idea. First you believe, then you act from that belief. Seems he wants proof that it can happen, then he'll believe.

Could this be what is the caution flag for you? Not the rest...a byproduct...but learning you live from what you believe renders his email unworkable?

Also, if he needs love deposits to face what he's done, would that be him using you to reflect him, aid him or filter him, in some way, for what his choices were? Or is it his statement from fear...his wishful thinking because he fears your judgment? Your attack...even if you are not attacking?

Maybe a clarifying response could aid you to know...listen and repeat...probe and clarify.

Another red flag is his belief that you can push him away. And his permission to run when he perceives you are. You have no control over his perceptions and you know that. Could be fear in you and the feeling of the same heartache from this. What do you think?

Clarifying the boundaries...in order to consider working back towards each other, WH and I signed a marital contract...stating our goal, our commitment to our part, and an expiration date of two years. You've already done a year...yours could be a year. The goal was to see if after working on ourselves, if we didn't want to be married at the expiration date, it would expire.

The first one we did was for three months. LOL.

We got this from MC...didn't say, "You're taking back a creep and bending until you're breaking...and he's not saying he'll come back to shame and torture." Said we work on our own stuff and decide to stay together or divorce, not based on feelings or fantasy, but on real investment in ourselves, which is what we bring to the marriage.

That contract stopped our "never, always, and evers"...helped us to stay present and focused. MC is essential for this, I believe...and ours did us as IC, with MC sessions together when requested or he deemed necessary.

You don't have to have trust in your partner to work on themselves. It was surprising to me to live counter to "where there is no trust, there is no marriage." It was marvelous, actually, to understand that earning and giving trust is a fluctuating choice we make daily, in a healthy relationship...it's fluid, not fixed. So breaking this old adage really freed me to learn to trust myself, marriage and then, my DH.

Authentically trust from love, not fear, not all evidence...and to have a marriage, anyway.

As to your highest truths...I hear fear, great fear, and I'm wondering how well the choices you've made in your life when made from great fear turned out?

What you feeling for your DH right now is part of a love bank...if you choose to believe that love bank can be filled to overflowing, then you will act on that belief. Determine what you truly believe, if you choose to love your WH or not...and if you don't...if there are any shoulds in there...then please don't. I did not have a year away from my WH...I have no idea how that experience feels. One month and half was devastating to me...really broke the enmeshment...I don't know what effect nine months would be...I haven't walked that road, Lizzie.

Let me ask you what you fear more...offering a plan with healthy requirements for a specific period of time...or divorcing and down the road, finding another guy and going through the same issues again...this is your second marriage...or being alone looks preferable? I have a hard time believing that because I see you as a woman of growth...and working out this stuff takes working it out in relationships...which have risks and rewards...same heartache...different person...and if you believe it will be different because the future guy will be, then I would strongly urge you to consider a negotiated reapproachment instead of divorcing.

Acting from fear teaches self it is being destroyed from the outside...and it cannot be. Acting from fear tells self it can be protected, and it cannot be. Living in truth, as your rewrite really showed your desire to do, takes holding your fear and acting anyway.

In recovery, my DH and I have experienced times of the "not wanting the same" again. It was abhorrent to us when one or the other reacted from "feeling old"; the old stuff. What we discovered was expecting more of the same GOT us more of the same...because it CANNOT be the same; we are different than we were then...and have been from the first day or reconciliation. We are different people, each day...choosing to see ourselves and each other that way was the first commitment to living in truth...and it has made all the difference.

My DH did not recommit to the marriage 100%...he committed to working on ourselves and learning for a set time...that's how deep his anger, resentment, frustration and justifications were...fueled by his self-deception and entitlement. He doesn't experience those any more in our marital relationship...and does in his work relationships. People change...the come to know, and they will only come to know themselves when they choose to do so. It is a brave and wonderful thing to be there for that person's journey, and for them to be there for your own.

Does peace and happiness come from within you, Lizzie? Does pain, fear, longing, come from within you? Or the outside...the environment...controlling everything externally for it to go well enough to your expectations so that you feel peace come in, along with happiness?

If you believe and act from the first way, then you won't lose anything by taking WH with requirements you're willing to enforce. If your belief is the second one, then do not take him back...no matter what requirements.

Can you see how getting clear on yourself tells you the answers to how to live? Live from what you believe...that love is a choice, that relationships are our highest and most difficult achievements in life...and our biggest rewards.

How do you cut losses? Think about it...when we experience loss, something or someone is gone...no longer there...nothing within our control to cut...our choice mourn them all the way through to get to acceptance...no cutting involved. Cutting losses is a lousy way of saying we have control where we don't. Your loss is the marriage you had pre-A...the DH you knew before you met WH...lots of grieving to be done. Divorcing isn't safe because it cuts anything off but your WH. A last boundary enforcement you can live with. A worthy one...after many progressive, consistent ones have been taken.

If you can name and know each progressive boundary enforcement you made, which matches your standards for your own conduct...then you will know if you've accepted that you want no relationship with H again, on any terms. Not from fear, but from love.

If you want a safe life, you cannot live in truth. Fantasy is what we run to, people are what we run from...and we end up in reality, with ourselves, each time...and feel like our lives are a long loop. We experience confusion, rage and crushing disappointment...banking that an action should have made us safe from our own feelings...should have protected us, prevented us, from pain...is that a reasonable human expectation?

What a plan would look like...MC, with IC, one session a week for you both...workbooks, exercises and a willingness to give up what you both think you know about relationships, yourselves and each other...15 hours of UA...which isn't about R but about knowing yourselves what you enjoy doing, which you can do together, RC, to exist in each other's presence without thinking of how you're being perceived, what the other is feeling about the other...

Total transparency for any possible occasion of contact and an MC willing to also be WH's accountability partner in this and supports transparency.

(Btw, we did separate bedrooms for awhile when he moved back in...already set up from before he moved out.)

Stated goals were for me, to live a respectful life...for my DH, to not live a fearful one.

Personal recoveries, side by side...

If your WH is saying the same things for the same reasons...his way of saying, "I'm not the bad guy here"...then him choosing not to do these things would be him shouldering half the choice to end the marriage...whether he sees it or not.

The prestated boundary enforcement here is that...any contact with OW or any posting to single sites, emailing women, or <blank> (you know better than I do) terminates the marriage. Go to the divorce attorney for the free consultation...get all the facts...the paperwork and have it completed filled out...except for your signature. Then put it away...in a locked box and give your most trusted female friend the key...so you cannot pull it out in anger, pain, fear or frustration...only from knowing reality and enforcing the boundary if it is crossed.

That's what they do with nuclear weapons, ya know.

I think you learning all the other progressive, predetermined boundary enforcements, how to do them consistently, progressively is what will change your life, where you'll know your power and limits...and I do not believe you will learn them on your own, separately...because it takes someone to cross them...and your WH has a talent at that, which I believe, existed pre-A in your marriage.

You're here...my focus is on you and your well-being...which isn't avoiding conflict, not learning your lessons...because I believe we feel cumulatively...so the ones you don't get become a lot tougher, hit harder, each time we don't get them.

Did you know that 90% of what you're facing is three inches to your left? Seems like a Herculean request, seeing if you want to recovery your marriage, what you're willing to do and commit to...without evidence or predicting of how it will turn out...I remember. And when I went that way, I realized, I only had to tilt my head three inches to the left...and the entire world changed. My marriage changed.

That's why ANYONE can do this...unless they choose not to...and you are allowed, have full permission to choose not to, Lizzie. You know that, right? My requirement is that you choose not to because of your standards, what you live by, not from fear.

LA

LA,

Thanks. Lots to think about there. Have been at work all night and very busy but I have tried composing a reply to WH's last e-mail. At first I started refuting a lot of the stuff that he had said, thought about including your statement about believing and then acting on that belief, and then I realized I only needed to ask for clarification and more information.

So far this is what I have come up with:

"I restrained a lot of feelings that weekend"

Restrained? Could you please clarify that for me?

What I heard that weekend:

You weren't the same person anymore.
In your heart, you no longer felt like my husband.
There was nothing you could have done to stop your affair with RJ's wife, nor did you want to.
That you believe that you have a character flaw and will probably do it again.
That you didn't want to be married to me anymore.
That you didn't want to commit to recovering our marriage.
That what we had wasn't right for you.
That you still wanted to have a child.
That you were in love with someone else.
That you had made a decision and nothing was going to change your mind.

For more than a year - and even as recently as Wednesday - you have siad that you don't know what your feelings are for me, that you are trying to figure things out, and now you say you are "not yet ready to throw in the towel on our marriage"?

What exactly are you saying?

Please fill in the blanks:

I feel__________________________.

I want_________________________.

I am willing to___________________.

It's avery rough draft right now. I am too tired to do any more at this point, but would love feedback.

I have also thought about resending my letter with certain parts highlighted -
the part where i said I feel like I have given it my all

the part where I tell him he is only offering me more of the same

the part where I tell him it hurts me too much to see him

actually, it would be pretty much the whole letter

Oh, Liz! LOL I wish I has some advice to offer. I feel like I need to leave that to our more experienced MBers.

I'm still wishing you the best...standing here with a shoulder...
Still hoping beyond your words that everything will work out the best for you!

on my response to WH's e-mail?

I seem to have lost my objectivity. Sometimes I think this sounds like more of the same, sometimes I think I see sincerity and a lot of fear.

Also thought about adding in this paragraph:
"For the past year I have held onto the belief that we could put our marriage back together. I held onto that belief even while knowing that your affair was ongoing. As I said in my last e-mail, I believe that I have done and said all that I could have. I have read no less than 15 books on marriage and infidelity, joined an infidelity support group, gone to individual counseling almost weekly, and have even done marriage counseling on my own with Steve Harley at $185.00 a pop. All of that has helped me to grow and heal and I feel really good about how I have handled this."

Hi, Liz!

I don't think it would be wise to add that stuff. it sounds like you are trying to make him feel your pain and as nice as it would be to be able to "show" a WS that pain, it's not going to help either way.

I'm still not sure about the other stuff. I hope that helps!

Another stab at my response letter -

"WH, I need your help in understanding some of the things that you have written.

I'm asking to have fun because I would like our "love banks" to replenish themselves before we get into what happened.

Are you saying that you want some kind of proof that this could work before you commit? A guarantee?

The last time we tried it you pushed too hard and I ran away.

You chose to run away. I can’t push you away or pull you towards me. Your actions, your choices all the way, based on your perceptions and your beliefs.
Likewise, my actions are my choices all the way, also based on my beliefs and my perceptions.

"I restrained a lot of feelings that weekend"

Restrained? As in held back? Could you please clarify that for me?

What I heard that weekend:

You weren't the same person anymore.

In your heart, you no longer felt like my husband.

There was nothing you could have done to stop your affair with RJ's wife, nor did you want to.

That you believe that you have a character flaw and will probably do it again.

That you didn't want to be married to me anymore.

That you didn't want to commit to recovering our marriage.

That what we had wasn't right for you.

That you still wanted to have a child.

That you were in love with someone else.

That you had made a decision and nothing was going to change your mind.

For more than a year - and even as recently as Wednesday ( I can't say 100% where my mind is or where I want to be, or even who I am these days) you have said that you don't know what your feelings are for me, that you are trying to figure things out, and now you say you are "not yet ready to throw in the towel on our marriage "?

What exactly are you saying?"

Hey, did WAT fall off the face of the earth?

Lizzie,

I'm confused...do you want these answers? Will they matter? You thought maybe you'd highlight what you sent him first...especially about you feeling you've given it your all...

What is your goal in answering his email?

Please help me to be clear on what you really want.

LA

I think WAT travels more these days - not sure though.

SS was traveling also, but he got home last night.

I would like to quote and comment on the whole thing, but I don't have time - work being what it is today.

It looks like (from reading) that you want answers to questions he probably can't answer (yet.)

Perhaps it would be well to keep your reply simple

"So, are you saying you want to try to recover, or are you saying you want to spend time together to see if you want to try to recover?"

He's not on the same page as you are. I doubt if he can come up with answers to these questions........... that will help you. If he can talk to Steve a few more times, and get some of the basic concepts down, he may be able to.

Isn't LA good help?

I see it as good that he is givng you answers. They look like straight answers. Or at least as much as a fog bound person can give.

You can quit if you want. You have choices. Don't forget that. Answering his mail, and exploring his feelings don't commit you to keeping him if he needs to be thrown back.

Perhaps it would be wise to keep it simple for now, and let Steve work with him - IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT.

Remember again (grin) that recovery is a process, not an event. Just like healing is a process. Think about that one a little bit.

My personal feeling is that your fear is based on past pain, not so much on possible future pain.

LA asked good questions - in fact, I think you are getting good support from everyone posting to you.

Relax, take it slow. Once you realize you really can walk away, it gives you more options when you respond.

SS

LA,
It looks to me like Liz wants to put these questions out so he realizes why she is doubtful. If he would say something like "I'm sorry I said those things, I was crazy, and I realize it, and I want to repent, and I want to be with you." IF he would say something like that, I think it would be a staring point for her. He needs to, and perhaps he will in time.

If Steve thinks there is hope, I would believe him. He knows how to ask questions to find out what's going on in a person s mind. He understands the process of recovery well.

Liz is still seeing a person who says they might want recovery, but who in the past said many, many things that were just the opposite. I believe she wants to point out to him this inconsistency and have him reconcile it and recant the harmful things he has been saying and doing before she invests any more time in him.

Probably the fog will dissipate slowly and it will take a while.

Liz, when you write him, can you tease him, and put some humor into it? Or is that too much to ask so soon?

SS

SS and LA,

You are both giving me wonderful help. Even though you both say the same thing, you present it in diferent ways and I am able to glean something different from each of you. SS, your posts center me. You have a talent for seeing through my words and being able to help me express what I am feeling. I feel wonderful empathy from you - like you have felt my feelings and understand.

It looks to me like Liz wants to put these questions out so he realizes why she is doubtful.

Liz is still seeing a person who says they might want recovery, but who in the past said many, many things that were just the opposite. I believe she wants to point out to him this inconsistency and have him reconcile it and recant the harmful things he has been saying and doing before she invests any more time in him.

Yes. yes and yes (see what I mean?). Well, he doesn't necessarily have to recant - I realize there is a lot of fog still - but at least reconcile. I am struggling to see if there IS a starting point.

LA, your help forces me to look at my intent, to look deeper, to find perspective. I have become a much stronger person because I am empowered by knowing that my choices are mine and by owning my own villagers. Your work with me has been priceless. You help me with my focus.

With SS, I see point B and know that is where I want to be. You help me on my journey from Point A to B. Make sense?

I look to WAT for the bare bones, down and dirty cut to the chase. He shoots straight from the hip even when he knows I won't like what he has to say. Sometimes I get caught up in myself and WAT brings me crashing back to reality.

I get something from everyone who posts here.

I've always been the kind of person who gathers as much information as possible before setting a course of action (did I mention that I do a lot of nursing research in order to keep our policies and procedures up to date? Implementing evidence-based practice? I think that spills into my personal life. Or maybe my personal life spills over into my work life? LOL)

SS, you are 100% right. Being ready to walk away, feeling secure in all that I have done, has expanded my options. I don't feel as though I have to accept anything from him. But, and it's a big but, if he can demonstrate a willingness to commit to recovery, I think I would want to consider it...for me. That might be something new - 100% commitment - that would be worth consideration.

So, my intent with my response to him is to clarify and probe, to see if this is more of the same or if maybe there is something real here.

Traveling, huh? Hope you had fun!

It's hard to know if there is anything real there when they are still fog bound. If Steve says there is a chance, I think I would trust him.

Doesn't it come down to you, and what you want,
Just as much as it does him, and what he wants?

It's going to take two of you who want recovery.

Don't be afraid to ask him - as in the example above. Or you can work with Steve, and let him make an assessment, but that will take more time and money. (not a bad thing, you like to lay out the options.)

I do recommend you keep exchanges with him short at this point.

In thinking about it, I believe the reason he made this statement The last time we tried it you pushed too hard and I ran away. Is because he can't yet face what he has done. When you ask the hard questions, he feels terrible inside, and he can't face that yet. He was a jerk, and that knowledge crashed down on him full force. Will time help with that?

Often it does. Sometimes it does not. Still a gamble.

Exchange some one or two liners.

Not sure how the boys are feeling now about him, but if there are events you can go to with him, where the boys are center stage, that would be a good start.

You might notice I have kind of changed my direction from last week. After thinking over the weekend, it seems to me you have to start somewhere. Having some understanding of Men, I try to make suggestions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He needs more background, and more time before he can answer the questions you need discussed. Some time with you, and a few sessions with Steve might help.

Examine your feelings. Look at your energy level. Be honest about what you really want.

If you do try, set boundaries.

Laugh. Realize nothing's a sure thing. Laugh some more.

Ss

Ps, yes, traveling.
W and I do a spring trip, and a fall trip. This was the fall one. Just for fun, to be with each other. It worked, I think I'm in love.