Ottilleb,

I don't think my WW and STBXW and I will even get the opportunity to reconcile (although I will never put God in a box) but if the opportunitu ever came up AND I WAS INTERESTED, then it would be my way or the highway, no concessions period for our M was not one of unmet needs, her affair is something missing inside her that no man, job, location, or anything else is going to make up for. There is a serious spiritual, mental and emotional problem that my WW will not face (adoption, unaffectionate father and therefore the love A with this man old enough to be her father, poor sibling (also a man) relationship, running from reality (getting older, good looks fading, mid life crisis at 35), immaturity, selfishness, etc. This is about her and her choices and any reconciliation on my part would be on my terms (althoug like I said I don't ever see it happening).

I am protecting me and my children. That is my focus period. She is on a death spiral and I will not let them go with her. So, I would decide what your terms are for HG and let her know. If she wants or can meet them then great pour your all into reconciliation otherwise protect you and yours. Just my opinion.

Hey wat, finer than a frog's hair.
funny things, these coinkidinks, eh?
Is your W happy now with the OM she wasn't having an affair with?
My H seems happier than ever, and thank God I know little or nothing about his life or his "friendship" any more. The lack of pain after so many years living with it is such an interesting sensation!

Goddess -

Ya know, I have no friggin' idea whether she's happy or not.

None.

Don't care.


Sorta like that greatest feeling in the world: beating your head against the wall - then stop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Hello all,

I owe all of you, but especially my husband, an explanation of the actions he reported some time ago when he walked on me talking to a man on the phone. I have to admit it did look suspicious, and because of the stress I was going through, I committed the error of hiding from my husband when talking on the phone. I was just talking with a close male colleague from work that knew that something was going on with me because I had not been showing up at work. I was telling him that I was going through some rough times in my marriage, and he suspected what it was about. Just in case, it was NOT the OM. Unfortunately, I reacted in a very suspicious way when my husband “caught” me talking to another man. It is just difficult to deal with being constantly watched, I am not used to that. I just wanted to talk to this friend about the situation, but when my husband confronted me in a demanding manner, I just freaked out and made the situation worst. He asked me if the guy knew about the situation, and I said no because the guy didn’t really know as a fact that I had an affair, but my husband said that I was lying because the guy did know according to what he heard from our conversation. The guy knew something was going on, but didn’t know everything that was going on. This caused a huge misunderstanding, which was interpreted as another lie from my part. It made me very sad and angry with myself because it was just an innocent conversation that caused a lot of trouble because of my reactions.

Anyway, I also promised to give my thoughts about “perfection” based on Just Learning’s comments. Thanks for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. Although I like to think that my life and my husband are perfect, the reality is that they are not. I am not perfect either, as all of you already know. But it is important to realize that because I have always lived in this world where everybody I know tells me just how perfect my life is, including my husband, my family, my education, my job, my apartment, etc, I think that unconsciously that has put a lot of pressure on me that my life has to be perfect to keep up with the expectations. My own husband tells me he had me on a pedestal. One of the reasons that he selected me as his wife is because I had all these wonderful qualities, I was perfect in his eyes, incapable of doing anything like what I did. That is one of the things that seem to hurt the most to him: the realization that I am not perfect; I am just a human being and a sinner, and I made a huge mistake.

Although my husband is not perfect either, he is the man that I love. When I look at him I feel love, a love so magical that is difficult to explain in words. I love his good qualities and I love his imperfections. I know that I have failed miserably as a wife, but I want him to know that I really do love him. He keeps trying to logically understand everything that happened, but I am afraid I might never have a reasonable, logical explanation to what I did besides what I have already told him. Trying to put into words all the feelings and thoughts behind a person that committed adultery is extremely difficult because one goes through very complex emotions and situations.

It has been already almost 2 months since the discovery, and it has been a rollercoaster of emotions. My husband has had lot of ups and downs, especially downs. It breaks my heart to see him like that. It is really hard sometimes to find the right words to say when I see him like that because it brings an enormous pressure on me and feelings of shame and regret. I have cracked down in tears a couple of times in the past week, because the emotional pressure is just insane. If only I could delete this whole situation.

Well, my posting is very long already, but just wanted to thank all of you for your support, allowing us express our thoughts, and giving us your advice.

HG,

Please read up about POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement). The concept section above and His needs/Her needs book discusses it further. This is critical as you have seen how misunderstandings create chaos and hurt.

You mention your H is on a roller coaster? Are you? What plan of recovery do you and your H have for yourselves individually and as a couple?

If you can call Jennifer @ MB for some phone counseling or work with a good MC familar with MB principals, that w/b good in getting a recovery plan going for you individually and together.

All the best,
L.

Hi Honeygirl:

Your H posted this a page back. This is what you are going to have to overcome. This is the exact thing that led me to decide to end my marriage. My wife is responsible for what she did but I have my own problems.

When I first married or before I was married I was confident in myself. I felt good about myself but through our marriage that feeling went away from her treatment of me. All fights were my fault every problem was mine and I was not making her happy?? Now when she had her affair it had a profound affect on me.

She so easily slept with another man and I had to look at myself in the mirror. Was I a good husband? Did I bring this on? Would she be better off without me? I knew she was not happy with me but God I tried. It never mattered what I did she just always expected more. I woke up one day and decided that I did give it my all I am just not good enough for her. The OM must be what she wants because she went out and got it. She loved giving sex to him yet used sex to contol me. I just figured she was better off with him or someone else and not me.

Your husband looks at OM and sees you chose him over your husband. You brought him into his house. Your husband looks at this guy and he looks in the mirror and wonders what you see in him. It just makes no sense that someone would risk a marriage for another man like this. Anyone can make fun of the male ego but it is part of who we are. In my case I just came to the conclusion that I could not go through life wondering if my wife would be happier with someone else. I concluded that she could and that I am not much of a man in the first place so just let her go. Now she doesn't want to go, go figure.

Now you just posted the following:


Could the above be one of the problems you are having in your marriage that could cause your husband to think twice about your honesty? Why are you talking about this with another male? Is this the kind of thing you started talking about with the OM (Other Man). You should not be talking about your marriage in any way with another man.

As a male we do not gossip like women. I might be wondering what is going on with another employee but I would not call her up and discuss her personal life with her. This is not a good thing. You ran in the bathroom so you could talk with another guy?

This can ruin your marriage. If you are having secret phone calls with other men that your husband can not listen to them, well lets just say I would really wonder if I want to continue with a woman that does this.

If you need to talk to someone talk to a GIRLFRIEND! Just a few things you might want to think about. I hope you and your husband both find happiness.

Hello all,

Orchid, thanks for recommending reading the POJA, I will take a look at it. To answer your question, I am definitely on a rollercoaster too. It is really difficult to be on a “normal” state, especially when I see how hurt, disappointed, and angry my husband is. We have been going to therapy individually and as a couple. We have also talked a few times with our priest, which at least brings a lot of peace to me, although I feel that it has not benefited my husband. I still think that we need more help, and to be honest, I am not sure what to do and what other type of help to get. I do know that this is something very difficult to manage alone, but I am somewhat afraid that nothing seems to be working that well. My husband has the same feelings, questions, and doubts as at the beginning. He might be super happy and telling me how much he loves me, and the second after he might still be questioning details about the affair. I am not sure what else to do to keep his mind off this topic. We have been talking about this almost non-stop for 2 months. It is really hard to have a romantic dinner when the topic comes up, it is really hard to make love and be intimate when again the topic comes up.

IHadEnough – thanks for sharing your experience and feelings. I feel horrible that I destroyed my husband’s ego and confidence in himself. I did make a huge mistake, but I did not choose the other man over my husband. I want to reconstruct my marriage because I love my husband and he is the man I want to be with. I believe he is the greatest husband and he didn’t do anything to deserve this. I think that making a direct comparison between the two is not the way to analyze this situation. The complexity of emotions that I went through goes beyond a simple comparison. My husband is so much better than the OM, I have no doubt about that. By comparing the two, what I did will never make any sense at all, it is much more complex. Well, it will probably never make any sense in any way.

About the conversation with the colleague, I would go out for lunch almost every day for the past 4 years with a girlfriend and this guy. His wife works there at the office too. They became my friends, so it is not a random colleague. Given the situation I was going through, I think that I could have been talking to a girlfriend and I would have also hidden in the bathroom. I just freaked out at the moment, and I know it was a horrible reaction. I would love to talk more to my girlfriends about the situation, but I am not sure how my husband feels about that. It is complicated to explain, but with this situation I feel he does not want me to be talking to anyone for too long. He listens to my phone conversations, he reads all my emails, and if I have to go out somewhere he gets anxious and follows me behind my back. All these things make me feel uncomfortable talking to anyone else, not because I am hiding anything else, but because of the fear that he might misinterpret something. My therapist did recommend talking to other woman, and I hope my husband understands that is something that will help me through this situation.

Well, that’s all for now, but I would appreciate all of your advice.

So maybe we should start another thread, but I guess I wanted to keep the history on one single thread. WW got approved to work from home but no specific details were given. She has to go into the office next week to meet with HR and her boss to figure out how it's going to work. I'm concerned it will only be for 1-2 months which is not acceptable, but we'll see.

I also feel like my feelings of anger, resentment and hate are growing day-by-day. On one hand, WW has been making a lot of changes (she even bought His Needs/Her Needs this past weekend), but I still can't believe what she did after all the sacrifices that I've done for her (e.g. I left my job to move to a state I didn't like to be close to her mom who had cancer about 2 yrs ago - she fully recovered and is doing well now). I read the article on "Overcoming Resentment" and I feel like I fit the description of the person who will have the hardest time to recover from infidelity: a) she lied to me even when I had evidence; b) she continued sleeping with the guy even after I knew they had been together once; c) she asked for her space to figure out what she needs (so I feel I was chosen because I can give her a lifestyle that the OM can't -- WTF!!! Wasn't I chosen already 2 yrs ago when we married???). I considered myself a person of very high self-esteem (my W would even joke about it) but now I feel like s**t. I've been completely destroyed.

The counselors have said that I shouldn't focus on the past but in the present and the details that keep us together now. Sure, nice theory, but what I do now will soon become part of the past and since the past doesn't matter, why work on the details of the present? They also have said that no one is exempt from adultery, so why then do people marry? Why do we do that commitment if it's likely to be broken? If I get a D, I don't think I would marry again, it's not worth it. Shouldn't a marriage be easy and fun? Sure each has its moments of disagreement but that doesn't open the door to break the commitment you made before our families and God.

I've been completely destroyed.

No one can destroy you emotionally without your consent.

You can leave at any time. Can't you?
It's your decision to stay and work on this.

You are still all that you were before - all that you REALLY WERE. If you don't feel the same, perhaps part of your life was pretend.

Who you are, and what you are shouldn't depend on her choosing you, or not choosing you. It depends upon your personal integrety and your personal strength.

Shouldn't a marriage be easy and fun?

I don't know what it should be, but I know what it is -
Sure it's fun. But it is also hard work. What did you ever have that was worth something, that was not work - at some point, to some person?

Real life is always work, unless you have a trust fund. (grin) Our marrriage was easy, and fun for about the first 2 months. Then we moved away, and we have been working ever since. 4 years ago, we were on the rocks, now we are happier than we ever thought. It has been work, but so worth it.

The tools we used are "HNHN", and "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love."

I can tell you that it works, and life is good........ but we had to do the work, and so will you if you want this to work.

It was worth it.

SS

Hi SS,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I know I can leave anytime, but this event has completely lowered my self-esteem. On one hand, I know she made all the decisions and allowed herself to have sex with someone else, but on the other hand it hurts my gut as if I wasn't good enough for her. Which then leads me to believe if I'm really good enough for anyone. I'm trying to think positively here but it's so hard knowing what she knowingly did to me after all that I've done for her.

re: whether or not I want to do the work... I don't know.. In my mind I was already giving 100% of me to her and she still didn't like it. She wants me to make all these changes, which I would have gladly done if she would've told me before, but now I just feel like it's too late. I strongly believe that it's her who should make the changes before I even consider what to do.

Don't make the mistake of giving 100% of yourself to the WS. Save that for your W.

L.

This is obviously false, as we see countless counter-examples of this every day. I agree with the rest of your statement, but this proposition in quote is misleading.


It always amazes me when WS make all kinds of demands after their A, still thinking that the world revolves around them. Your WW chose to cheat because she thought (thinks?) that it is ok to go outside your M and violate her vows when it is in her perceived interest to do so. You can fill in “perceived interest” with ENs not being met, with not being happy, or whatever other justification WS come up with. In other words, it’s all about the WS. Let your WW knows that it’s not only her ANYMORE.

She did not cheat because of what you did not do, but because of what she chose to do and what she believed she can do. No M is perfect, and although it is good to keep trying on being a good or better husband, do not fall into the trap that WS often set for BS to be a perfect partner in the relationship, while they, on the other hand, are less than perfect.

You WW could improve on many things also. That is just the nature of being human. Normally when there are no children and the M is young, I usually suggest to the BS to cut his or her losses, but since your WW seems remorseful enough, I am inclined to advise you to stick this out. But do not let your WW set up all kinds of hoops for you to go through (in an effort to appease her so she might not cheat again or leave you?), while she in turn fail to make as much if not more changes than you. Never accept the one-way street framework that WS often set up for their spouses.

And lastly, I disagree with your counselor that should not dwell on the past. Your situation is very new, and you still have to work out the emotional and intellectual aspect of it. And that takes time.

Sorry otilleb that you find yourself here. I am going to throw this out there because I think its important to you. I have posted questions and asked for advice just like you as aide to understanding. I cannot see any value of having your wife on here reading your posts. For one she is going to know your next step. I see from her posts that she is saying all the right things and is probably using this forum as a way to get back on your goodside. Everyone who has read this thread knows a bit about you and now your wife. It is one big counselling session. If your wife has a tendency to be dishonest she could continue but now posting "her undying devotion to the man she loves" responses aides her gaining credibility with you. It kinda adds the perception of honesty. In other words she is not telling you that she loves you she is telling the world. If you know what I mean.

Personnally, by reading her posts, I think she is still full of it. I know exactly how you feel about being betrayed and felt the same way. That "second best" feeling. It will go away in time and your confidence will return. I think you are in an excellent position to work on you and do the things you want. I was married for 16 years had 2 children and everything that goes with that. I guess what I am trying to say is that the "ties that bind" were greater in my situation.

I hope I have said this clearly enough for you to understand. Some will disagree, but keep in mind that I only know what you have posted. You have to make up your mind and live with your decisions.

My vote, which is contrary to the purpose of this site, is for you to work on you and think about the next 30 years with someone who has betrayed you like this. I sincerely hope that you will not be haunted by this for a lifetime but if you were would it be worth it. What would you do if it happened again after 16 years of marriage. Only you can answer that.

I hope that everything works out for you and that you make the best decisions for YOU.

That's exactly right irq. That's the scary stuff.. that she was able to do this only 2 yrs into our marriage. I felt like I was still in my honeymoon. And now this bomb. I don't know.. it just seems like as I analyze the situation more and more, the more hate I feel towards her. I want to start working on me and the things that I like... but when I leave the house I can't help but wonder what she may be up to now...

Hate is probably not the best word but it might be the easiest to describe your feelings of anger, betrayal etc. This too will pass in time.

Wondering what she is up to is normal. I would realize that I couldnt control her and move forward with myself. Take flying lessons or something that will be finite and engage your mind. Go back to college, etc. Put yourself in a measured situtation where you can see change. Meeting a difficult external standard will be a big confidence booster.

Yeah I know hate is probably not the right word, but after all I've given up for her, I really don't think I deserve this. I love (loved?) this woman with all my heart and for her to do this to me is such a big blow. Today during one of our counseling meetings she said that one of the reasons why she didn't say the truth from the get go is that she knew it would lead to divorce. Why can't she let me make that decision? It's as if she was willing to rebuild a marriage with me having a different impression of her. Why would she want to be married to a man who doesn't know her completely or has a different impression of her?

It's scary.. it makes me wonder what else she may have hidden in the last 9 years so that I wouldn't leave her. Lies are so painful...

Still Seeking said:

Quote:
No one can destroy you emotionally without your consent.


UVA said:
Quote:
This is obviously false, as we see countless counter-examples of this every day. I agree with the rest of your statement, but this proposition in quote is misleading. [/b]

I still stand by what I said, and believe it to be true. I as Proof , I use the book - "Man's Search For Meaning" By Victor Frankl.

Victor Frankl was a Jewish Austrian psychiatrist who was interned in a Nazi concentration camp during World War II. He lost his wife and family. Yet he emerged in triumph.

Frankl observed that many of the prisoners died when undergoing less hardship and suffering than those who survived. The survivors tended to be people who envisioned a future for themselves despite their present suffering, people who believed they had a meaning in life and did not surrender to despair.

Can someone hurt you?
Yes
Can you suffer from it?
Yes.

But, I still say they can't DESTROY you without your consent.

Most of the people that come to MB have marriage problems.
YOU have problems, you are hurt, angry, and suffering.

The thing is, what do you do about it?
If you can invision a future for YOU, despite your suffering, and if you can make that future happen, you will succeed with or without your W.

Picture a future with a wonderful women at your side. Picture a future where you are happy, healthy, successful.

Now, your W can join your future, or she can leave it, but I believe you can still have that future if you want it.


I strongly believe that it's her who should make the changes before I even consider what to do.

You can't control what she does. You can't change her, or make her do anything.

You can only change you and hope she follows your example. If she doesn't, you are still free to find your dream of a wonderful future.

Sure it hurts. I'm not saying it doesn't. Sure it sucks - big time.

When things happen to us, we can say "poor me."
Or we can find a way to be happy anyway.

I highly recommend that book - many libraries have it. I think it could change the way you look at this.

I hope you understand I'm not trying to minimize your pain, or say it's not a terrible thing. I suppose my question is more along the lines of what do you want to do about it?

SS

Otilleb,

I’ve read a bit of your story and observed how you are suffering trying to come to terms with Honeygirl’s betrayal of you. She has been given some great advice in these pages by some of the best of the best. You have undoubtedly read these posts and will benefit from the words.

This particular post is addressed to you. I am writing it because you have an important role to play in your recovery. I am writing it because I see someone who is struggling with taking even the smallest step forward. Your situation is common.

I want to paraphrase an old post by a fellow named 2ofakind. I always admired him for his candor and logical way of thinking. He was a wayward spouse that rebuilt his marriage (with the help of his wife) into something really great. He helped me to take a step back in my marriage and view it from a distance. When I took a step forward back into the marriage I was better prepared to recover.

I was at month two and my wayward wife desperately wanted to save our marriage just as Honeygirl wants to save yours. It was me that was slowing the process. I was hurt, betrayed and crushed. I felt little hope or self-encouragement to move forward yet I stayed. I needed something more, something that would allow me to act instead of idly standing bye while my wife tried to soothe my damaged ego. I could not bring myself to accept her overtures.

It was 2ofaKind that suggested that it was ME who would decide whether of not I was willing to ALLOW recovery. He said something like,

“You CAN choose divorce and not even God will blame you, but you are staying and your choice to stay has consequences just like your wife’s choices. It means that you do not get to hold on to the “you are bad, I am good” trump card indefinitely. Ouch. Sure, in the initial phase of recovery you can expect her to do all of the heavy lifting and you can afford to be a bit self-righteous in your indignation. After all you were the good spouse and she was the bad spouse. Unfortunately as you are discovering, this is not a tenable position because if you are going to go from a walking trauma case back to a healthy, secure and happy human being in a solid relationship you need to get back to being equals. You might say, “I didn’t do anything to deserve this, she had the affair, it’s not fair”.

No, it isn't. It sucks actually but that does not make it any less true. If you choose recovery then you both must be responsible for it's success or failure. Obviously, if she keeps up contact or other destructive habits (privacy concerns, hiding things, unhealthy behaviors) all bets are off. If however, you have a horrified, repentant and desperate to reconcile wife and are unwilling to participate in the work then you are to blame for YOUR actions. While all of your choices may currently SUCK in a really big way, they are your choices. Your acknowledgement and acceptance of your choice to choose recovery makes you a responsible party to its success or failure. Further, it gives you back a little control over your life and that builds self-esteem.

For the first few months it is AMAZINGLY convenient to pull out the affair whenever an argument is going awry, isn't it? “Honey, it's your turn to do the laundry” ... “Well that may be true but YOU HAD AN AFFAIR!” Helluva trump card, ain't it? Putting it back in the deck will be a lot easier if you remind yourself that you are choosing recovery for the same reason your spouse is choosing to be faithful and repair the horrific damage she has done to the marriage - because all things considered, being happy and having a happy family is more important than being right.”

You have made note that your self-esteem has been wiped clean by your wife’s terrible betrayal. Believe me when I say that I know how you feel, unfortunately from firsthand experience. You may not have thought of this but you are not alone. There is another person whose self-esteem has taken a direct hit. You guessed it, your wife. Here’s the worst part. While yours gets better, hers gets worse. Remember this as one day it will fall to you to help her along. She wants to be a good person and she will look to you to legitimize her once again.

Please consider these words as you travel your road.

Mr. G

Hi Mr G,

I agree that I have to put some effort from my part, but for now HG is not meeting my boundaries / conditions that I'd set for working on this marriage. Until she meets all the boundaries, she keeps demonstrating that it's always been about her. Right now, I'm holding a lot of resentment against her... I mean I left my dream job and a city I loved for her. I took a job that would make her happy, and then 2 yrs later she goes to sleep with another man. Oh no.. not acceptable.

I know I have to work on that resentment; I'm a very resentful person (I still hold resentment to my parents). This is another aspect that makes me wonder whether she may be better off with someone else since I'm afraid this resentment will never go away.

And I'm so afraid to start trusting her again. She cold-heartedly kept lying about stuff even when 1) she promised to be 100% transparent and 2) I had evidence on hand. She even swore under God that she was telling the truth. For the religious person that she is (or claims to be), to commit a sin this big and not own up to it is HUGE. And the fact that she can so coldly lie to me (and swear under God) makes me wonder what else about our relationship is not true or what else she may lie about in the future. Now she says that this time she's being 100% transparent, but we've all heard that before. For me D-day was more like D-1.5 months, which makes me wonder what else she's hiding.

When the guy convinced her to have unprotected sex because he'd promised to pay child support if my W got pregnant, that was 2 days after my W had told her family that she still wasn't ready to have kids with me (even though we had been trying for 3 months at that time).

Mr. G, thanks for your words and I agree with them 100% that if I choose to stay I have to work on the M as well as my W does. I guess I'm still not 100% sure I want to stay and work on this.

This is all quite normal. See my (our, the board's) responses to HG about owning what she did. She has to decide to do this first of all.

Your only job at this point is to love her as best you can, stick to your boundaries, provide a safe environment for her to share and talk or answer your questions.

The brunt of healing this M is on her back right now and I tried to communicate that to her.