As for my XH, will his marriage to the child work out?

I don't know. I really only care in so much as it will affect my children.

What I do know is that he already cheated and lied to her. He was lying to her while being with me. When he came back here from living out of state with her, he tried to 'woo' me back...even to the point of telling me on the day we got divorced that he saw us remarried within two years.

Bet he didn't tell her that.

When he moved into the house he's in now, the one they live in, he was trying to convince me to move in with him instead of getting my own place.

Think he called up and cried on her shoulder when I said not a chance in ******?

The chances of him being faithful to her are about ZERO considering he's already been unfaithful to her and lied constantly. Rather than admit to her that he stopped our divorce once... went to the courthouse before a commissioner and said "I do not want to divorce my wife. We are going to stay married because I love her".... he told her he tried but there was a glitch in the paperwork. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She's young, 24, he's 33. He can barely support them, is a constant liar and a serial cheater. She'll probably leave anyway. Nothing like living with a cheater and having to actually be a wife to shake off the illusions.

He's turned her into a mom to 3 kids, although she thought being a step mom would be fun, and leaves most of the dirty work about it to her.

Wouldn't be surprised if she's gone before he has the chance to cheat again.

Neither of them respect marraige. He's cheated and she's jumped on married man. Does not bode well for a long happy marriage.

I think they are pretty typical.

FIM

I HAVE ONE RESPONSE TO THAT...

TWO PERCENT...

TWO PERCENT.

DOS PERCENT.

NOT NINETY PERCENT....JUST TWO PERCENT OF THE LIE MARRIAGES SURVIVE...

AFFAIR MARRIAGE EQUALS LIE-ING IN SIN WITH YOUR LIE PARTNER...

I have to say that my mother had loads of integrity; good judgment--well, maybe not, but integrity -- YES! I remember the days before she left my step father--they were horrible. She would ask for attention, a hug, a kiss, some form of a show of intimacy or love, and he would openly deny her. She was suicidal at times and at the end of her rope.
I understand the anger coming from this topic. I'm the BS here, so I definitly understand the anger. I'm only pointing out that my mother was a decent human being, who made some grandiose mistakes choosing partners. I respect the fact that she always took care of her children, never leaving us behind or lessening how much she loved us. She took great care to let us know that she loved us. As I said, I was abandoned by my father, as he always knew my whereabouts, just never attempted to contact me. I'm not making excuses, rather pointing out that not all WS's are these despicable creatures we would like them to be. My H is a good person. I truly believe this; but he has done a despicable thing. That doesn't change the fact that he deserves happiness. Some marriages are C-R-A-P CRAP from the beginning. If you OPENLY ask for your needs to be fulfilled and are OPENLY shunned, it is human nature to look for a light, some hope, another love. As BS's, I think we sometimes take the martyr track and become engulfed by the anger that turned our world and childrens' worlds upside down. Let us not forget that we are human and could just as easily have made this mistake (with the opportunity) and been tarnished in the eyes of our former loved ones.

I do not agree with my mother's choices always, but I understand them. Some affair marriages do work. I don't mean that these people lay in agony inside an empty, meaningless marriage. Some affair marriages work. My mother and stepfather worked very hard to make our family a unit, to set up clear boundaries and to protect us all. It worked for them. My mother and former step father communicated and were able to, eventually, settle their differences. He (former stepfather) admitted to denying her needs as she admitted to failing him by leaving.
Some work

Also, also
My mother did not jump back into marriage(she waited 8 years after her D); she actually told me that she did not want to remarry. It was important to my dad, so they had serious discussions and decided to take the vows. They did not enter into this lightly. I think someone marrying their A partner so quickly after their D is saying something about their need to be right, their egos or some form of inferiority. Anyway, this is my own close, personal experience and in no way matches many others here. I personally hope that my M lasts and that I am happy in it. If I am not, I WILL leave first, prior to engaging in another relationship.

I do not understand the logic behind the stay married miserably OR have an affair choice options.

What Peachy is saying..and I agree 10000000%..is that there is ANOTHER choice..a choice that involves honesty, integrity, bravery, responsibility and adult decision making skills.

People who have affairs are not making this choice..they are excluded from the club regardless of the condition of their marriage prior to the affair.

Their reaction to the problems in the marriage is to do the opposite of the above..lies, doublemindedness, cowardice, irresponsibility, and juvenile level decision making skills.

So..it really is a no brainer that the only way to go from that platform is down..it is not a sustainable lifestyle for adults.

The affair marriages that "work" [and we'd need to be a little more clear about the definition there] are really the result of people who have previously employed the second set of coping techiniques..but have changed to embrace the first. Otherwise it's just more of same.

I don't that is a disputable point.

Having an affair is not a solution to a bad marriage..it is escapism..like a child hiding under the covers.

The solution requires that you face your problem as an adult..and make a decision to accept the consequences of that choice whether it be to stay and try to work on your issues..or to divorce.

I have a question:

What constitutes cheating on a spouse? Obviously when H & W are still together, but what about?

1. After a H and W separate but not knowing if they will reconcile;
2. During separation and knowing there is no chance of reconciliation;
3. After a formal legal separation is filed; or
4. After divorce is filed but not finalized.

In my book, all of the above constitute cheating. My WH thinks otherwise. We have been separated three weeks, and he just told me he wasn't going to be sitting at home twiddling his thumbs.

Am I in the minority on this? We are still married.

And what about spouses who agree to date while separated? Is that okay?

In my opinion we do not serve ourselves or any marriage well by allowing categories other than "married" and "not" to exist.

By the way FIM..

I really have always felt that [although it wasn't the purpose] your having sex with your H during his A when he was committed to OW and planning to divorce you was...



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Probably the most effective sabotage you could have landed on the romance long term.

Oh, I know..I don't approve of sex with active WSs..but it doesn't render me blind to the result.

Particularly in your case..as you say he was a serial cheat..and he did have some uneasyness because he himself stated that he had been "faithfull to OW" and now he had cheated on her..I know it is twisted logic but stay with me here.

I've always thought his A had a "redo" sort of vibe to it.

THIS time it'll be good..THIS time it'll be enough for me [still looking for that woman who can fix whatever it is inside himself that renders him habitually unfaithfull by her sheer wonderfullness..magic pill city]..sex with you broke the seal.

Anywho I know it is redundant now..as you have both remarried [still waiting to hear THAT story] but something that's been clunking around in my brain when I see you post and now it fell out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am so with you noodle!

What is wrong with being HAPPY AND ALONE? If a M is really not working...then you have choices and responsibilities to YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR PARTNER before ending it.

1)some type of help...get therapy..see a counselor (and no not a divorce counselor)...see if you can work on the marriage
2)work on communication between the partners...

just get help first! That's what a responsible person does...THEY DO WHAT THEY RATIONALLY CAN AND SEE IF THEIR PARTNER IS AMENABLE TO POSITIVE CHANGE...for the good of the marriage. Now if the partner isn't interested at all, or is INCAPABLE OF CHANGE...then it's time for decision making...

And that time it is the time to ponder should we remain married or not? THE QUESTION IS NOT "MY NEEDS AREN'T BEING MET...THIS PARTNER IS DEFECTIVE...I SHOULD BE HAPPY SHOULDN'T I? I SHOULD FIND A QUICK FIX"...

If the M is irreparable beyond help of counselors, psychs, ministers, and beyond the other partner wanting to recover the M, then it's time for DIVORCE...NOT FOR AN AFFAIR.

If you want any semblance of peace or tranquility after a divorce, THEN BY ALL MEANS DON'T CHEAT! It's like a form of abuse...I swear it is. Studies have concluded that many survivors, (YEA US BETRAYED SPOUSES) exhibit some of the same physical and emotional scarring as does victims of actual spousal abuse...It's life changing...the affair and its sad side effects. YOU ARE NEVER THE SAME AFTER IT...now granted, I've changed myself...I am stronger and I am more of a woman imho...a much tougher and more loving woman all at the same time, BUT I'D PREFERED I'D BECOME THIS WAY BY SOME OTHER MEANS NOT BY MY XH'S ILLICIT AND EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE AFFAIRS AND TREATMENT OF ME....

Point was, our M was NOT BAD BEFORE THE A...it was just usual life. I was NOT NEW anymore...and the bimbos were.

Some people do prefer escapisim. ESCAPISIM. Pure and simple. They want the harlequin romance (vomit). They want the hearts flowers romance and hot sex. Well if they followed Harley's principles of keeping a marriage good (EN's being met and learning how to re-love your partner using your brain) they could have it again! But that would require work and work vs. fantasy isn't glamorous or exciting. THAT IS THE TRUTH!

Work vs. Glamour. Everybody would want the glamour right? Not me. This little girl wants somebody willing to do the work so we can get the hotness and the warm fuzzies! Sure do!
'
But ending a M with dignity is good. It is the decent thing to do to another human being...TO A HUMAN BEING..DON'T TREAT YOUR PARTNER LIKE A DOG BY CHEATING...DO THEM JUSTICE...

It's the covert lies...the twisted truths...the double lives..that is what do the damage to people irreparably.

When you can end something decently AND FAIRLY, then it is only going to be amicable.

And after ending a M for the correct reasons AFTER REASONABLE ALTERNATIVES FOR HEALING HAVE FAILED, then you focus on HEALING YOURSELF AND ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE FAILURE OF THE M ON YOUR PART...HEAL SOME MORE..THEN MOVE ON..

IF NOT, YOU WILL MAKE A POOR PARTNER TO SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE FUTURE.

What we have here folks is a society rampant with FEEL GOOD HEDONISTS WANTING INSTANT GRATIFICATION WHO JUMP FROM ONE FEEL GOOD MOMENT OR PERSON TO ANOTHER...TO FEEL ALIVE. I hate it when I hear" but she made me feel so alive..hadn't felt alive in years"...how about u put it in proper perspective? YOU FELT THE NEUROTRANSMITTERS WORKING ON YOUR GENITALIA...THAT'S ALL THAT'S HAPPENED. NO ROMANCE..IT'S SEX HORMONES BABY.

THEY DON'T GET IT.

It's truly a case of feel good emotions taking over the centers of the brain responsible for rational behavior.

The choice IS CONSCIOUS..NO GUN WAS PUT TO THE HEAD OF THE WS SAYING THEY HAVE TO OBEY THEIR SEX/BRAIN FEEL GOOD VIBE...THEY CHOOSE TO DO WHAT FEELS GOOD AND TOSS RATIONAL AND DECENT BEHAVIOR OUT THE WINDOW. It is a conscious choice.

I also hate it when I hear this, "I WAS NOT LOOKING TO FALL IN LOVE...IT JUST HAPPENED..." That's another common misconception. Like what happened? Did my xh accidentally have a bizarre clothing accident at the abercrombie store (the ow is mentality of a teen) where he lost his clothes, and fell naked on top of the ow who happened to also be naked? Really? it was an accident? They have NO RESPONSIBILITY?

Where is responsible behavior? Where is it? When we look at the lives of the WS, we see lack thereof of responsible behavior. From NOT using contraceptives, to being poor parents, to chucking their kids so they can have time with their affair partners, to putting their jobs and family income in jeopardy for a bit of afternoon sex during lunch at work or using/misusing work funds for propegation of an affiar, it's all LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY.

Nobody wants to do the hard thing. Which is the right thing usually. Nobody wants to be alone. They want to have somebody to stroke their ego constantly....

I also believe many WS's are narcissists plain and simple. That is why so many BS here are BS and not turned WS themselves! That's just the working theory I have....

Where the WS feels "entitlement" to this fun...to this escapism...and when it's too much or they feel too bogged down, they go for the "fun" alternative...and usually it isn't the marriage or the work to make the marriage more fun...it's the affair.

And TO THE POSTER WHO ASKED WHAT ABOUT DATING WHEN SEPARATED? YOU'RE EITHER MARRIED OR SINGLE. PERIOD. NO BLURRING LINES. WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT THAT EITHER?

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. Maybe I am a true relic of the past...but I can CONTROL MY GONADS...I CAN CONTROL WHO AND WHEN I GET BUSY WITH...AND I CONTROL MY BEHAVIORS SO I DON'T DAMAGE MY KIDS OR MAKE THE PERSON I AM DATING FEEL LESS ABOUT THEMSELVES. I make RESPONSIBLE CHOICES...so much to a fault that I wonder and really wish to just know how much fun it must be to be a 100 percent WS! Gosh. To fly by the seat of your pants, willy-nilly all the time! To be controlled by WHAT FEELS GOOD. Geez. That might be fun...FOR MAYBE A WEEKEND AT MOST...but I love my child. I care about OTHERS...BEFORE MYSELF...AND I HAVE FUN..BUT I HAVE BOUNDARIES TO MY FUN.

And on this note, I go to have my nightly hedonistic bubble bath...my way of rebelling...take that xwh! I can and will have a bubble bath whenever I choose to do so! And I can relax, and talk on the phone to the guy I'm dating...and not spend one more nanosecond on this thread explaining to others why

AFFAIR MARRIAGES DON'T WORK...IT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T WORKING PROPERLY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

ACCOUNTABILITY...RESPONSIBILITY...CARING FOR OTHERS BESIDES YOURSELF...THAT'S WHAT A REAL ADULT CAN DO. WHAT A LOVING TOUGH PERSON DOES EACH DAY. NO EXCAPISM. NO FANTASY ISLAND.

MR. ROARKE DOESN'T EXIST. NEITHER DOES TATTOO. NO WHITE PLANE. AND NO TWO TICKETS TO PARADISE.

IF YOU ENTER THE WORLD OF THE AFFAIR AND LEAVE YOUR PARTNER TO MARRY THE OP, WELCOME TO ****** BABY.

Couldn't have said it better myself...I love you Peachy!!!!

It is SOOOOOOooooooo difficult listening to people's rationales for their behavior....you hit it right on the head. Yeah for Peachy....

Pat

From Frank Pittman’s Private Lies:


Alph.

JP....WOW! I saved that one. Really good stuff for sure.

So, back to statistics. If I understand some of the stats I've seen over that last few months, 50% of all first marriages fail, 60% of all second marriages fail and 70% of all third marriages fail. What about a third marriage that started as an affair? Let's also say the the OM is divorced due to his cheating as well. I'm going to figure this scenario has a 2-5% chance of actually lasting 5 years. Anyone wish to speculate?

I know of two affair marriages. Both couples seem to be functioning. It is hard to say how happy people are in these new marriages.

I guess I would say that I really don't know of how happy any marriage really is. I guess I could point to one or two couples that I would guess are pretty happy, but the vast majority of "normal" marriages that I see certainly have their issues. Some are abusive. Some are neglectful. Some are filled with quiet indifference with each spouse living separate lives.

Maybe it is just cynicism, or spending too much time here an MB, but I am begining to think most marriages aren't really that great . . . hence the high divorce rate.

Why is marriage just so damn hard? Why does there seem to be so much conflict in these realtionships?

I do think it would be best to leave a marriage and divorce before one has an affair. I also think it would be best to treat our spouses better in the first place. If most married folk really really practiced some of the things that Harley has developed . . . I think we would not only have more marriages survive, but survive and flourish.

I think that a lot of people just don't know how to be a good spouse. After 10 years of M I know that I still have much to learn. It isn't intuitive to me at all.

If the question from Graxannm is regarding a personal decision to leave the M for another person, then my answer is NO, NO, NO. You must try your utmost to save the M and make it a happy one. If this fails, after many attempts and changes, then you move on ALONE to discover what about you caused you to decide to leave, what are your intrinsic problems and what do you need to change prior to engaging in another relationship.
If the question is sheer curiosity, then I would have to be honest and say that very, very few affair based marriages work, some do, but the overwhelming majority do not, as the relationship is built on misdeeds and lack of loyality and reality. I do not inject my personal experience to anger anyone, but to show a side of the story that I have contended with. I am a BS not WS. Even with my mother committing adultery and LONG after, marrying the OP, I have always made the decision to take relationships slowly and to make sure that when I decided to marry, it was for good or bad. I also decided that I was beholdin to my child to try to save my M, as well as beholdin to me and my H; we made a promise and I intend to hold up my end. I truly believe that it would be difficult in the least to maintain a relationship that you started while devastating those around you. The guilt alone is awesome.

So, my personal opinion is that affair marriages do not work; i can't speak for the statistics. REally, if you are asking whether you should leave your M for someone else, the answer is NO. I haven't, personally, had to contend with my FWH marrying his OW, so I cannot represent based on that.

Yeap, but regardless of what their perception is of how or why they started out doesn't change the fact they entered into that relationship with a helluva more baggage then a pure relationship which was born in integrity and morals (aka affair-less).

Jo

This has been incredibly helpful to me. Thanks for such honest and heartfelt responses, and also the articles that have tried to address this question.

I know that for the last several years I have been living in a fantasy world and making the worst decisions, justifying them by the fact that the affair made me feel good. But if I had left my BS to be with the OW I now know it would have been a disaster for me, her, my BS and my kids.

Knowing that will help me as I go through the withdrawal process and the feelings threaten to take control again. I know that deep down I would have had to throw who I am away to be with the OW. And that’s really why I stayed with my BS for such a long time while maintaining the affair. I could have left and set up house with the OW but I would have had to pretend that what I was doing was right or OK or justified and even I never believed that. I always knew it was wrong, wrong for me, not who I really am.

The tricky part is you desperately want to maintain the feelings that the affair provides, even when you hate what you are doing. It’s insidious, really an addiction.

Thanks again everyone.

i hope they don't because my wife is having one, i know i wouldn't want a cheater

grxannm...

this is a padded 2X4 & a wake up call .....



This affair already is a disaster for you, OW, your BW , and your betrayed children.

You did not dodge the bullit, you pulled the trigger on the pistol.

In order for you to heal, you need to really examine the wounds ... and it might be a bit premature in the process, but you can always do this examination in the future after you go through withdrawl.

Adultery makes you a thief. You steal things that are not yours to take. You steal time. You steal energy. You steal souls.

You became the robber who abducted OW's soul. Her goodness, if you will. Yes, she handed it over to you willingly, but you were the accomplice in her soul suicide ... the man who said, "Yes, turn your soul over & accept that you can harm others willingly, so I may have pleasure. "

Pretty nasty UNloving thing to help another human being do to themselves, don'cha think?

And it goes visa versa as well..... OW was just as willing to sit by your side as you diminished the greater parts of yourself, you goodness, your integrity, your role as a leader in your family .... and all for her pleasure. She robbed you. She picked your pocket, and stole pieces of your soul.

MATURE LOVE ... lifts our souls to a higher level. MATURE LOVE does not make the lover smaller , meaner, lower, and neglectful of one's goodness.

It was not ~almost ~ a disaster ... it WAS a disaster.

So let's take this fantasy relationship of "star-crossed lovers" that you suckled for 9 years as your soul suffered .... and just put it in the beam of light known here as "the truth".

It was a disaster. And now it is time to fix what was torn to shreds during Hurricaine Adultery.

As you mourn the loss of the Hurricaine Adultery OW ... you are mourning the loss of the source of your wife's and your children's pain. How can you reconcile that in your mind?

And HERE, right HERE ... is where the debate usually begins about whether or not the WS still loved the BS during their affair.

The answer is ~~~>[color:"red"] you loved your family enough to NOT divorce them ~~~> as you stole from them.[/color] There is no other answer in my mind. It was a selfish love you nurtured ... a love that served your feelings, it did not serve others ... and certainly ... it did not serve the better part of YOU !


So your affair robbed your family of your love & protection (and other things as well: like money spent on OW/OC , and time... you were UNavailable ... either physically or emotionally)

And ... your affair [color:"red"]robbed[/color] the OC of a loving 2-parent intact home ! Something every child deserves ~~~> a Mommie & a Daddy who live together .... not a Daddy who "visits" his child. This was a pre-meditated robbing of a child from the moment of conception.

Affairs are nasty business. Affairs are a disaster.

I suggest you [color:"red"]take this 2X4 like a man[/color] & use it to shorten your "mourning your loss" period ... because the sooner you start your soul clean-up, the better off you will be.

When you discuss your affair with your wife, verbally refer to is as "MY disasterous ADULTERY" .... do this consistently & your time in the house of mourning your "loss" will diminish ...

you have work to do

do it with gladness not sadness

you were not mortally wounded by the bullit you shot into your own soul

Pep

PS ~~~> Have you contacted the Harleys? You need some professional help.

for those of you who may think Pep is "harsh'

take a look at G's MB sign-on date

2003

then look at his first post in 2003

..... he's been given great advice before .... and called it "bitter"

HIS road to perdition

I have reservations about his sincerity today, based on his post on June 20th


.... we shall see....

OK G ~~~> I'm ready ! bring it on



Pep

You were not harsh at all Pep. Just direct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And aptly so.

~A