-emphasis mine







Hi Stanley...

I hope you won't mind, but I just wanted to continue a bit further with you...The other thread already has so many tangents that I just thought it best to start another one...I'm not picking on you, I really just want to share and get your input (along with others) if I might?

First, I want you to know that I did not intend you any disrespect by posting what I did to you on Suzet's thread...I really wanted to convey how I felt in a light-hearted manner...Though, obviously it is certainly NOT a subject to be taken lightly...

I also would like to say that I have agreed with almost every single thing that you have said in your posts to that thread...Actually, I believe that may be the first time that I've ever had the opportunity to read any of your posts...Even here, I think we may actually be agreeing, but are perhaps using different words...But I'm not sure, and when you have the time I would like to hear your thoughts...

Right off the bat, let me say that I COMPLETELY, 1000000% agree with everything that Dr. Harley says regarding no contact for life...In fact, even more vehemently so, now than ever, in light of the recent FWW to WW happenings...As a matter of fact, my 20 year high school reunion is coming up next summer, Mr. W and I had planned to go, even knowing that there was a chance that OM would be there...Mr. W was OK with that, and he posts here regularly, so he can certainly confirm this...In light of all that I have seen here, combined with the advice that Dr. Harley himself gives on his radio show, I have changed my view, we are NOT going...NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is worth risking my marriage and family over-especially not a silly high school reunion-that just doesn't make good sense when logic, reason and professional expert advice are considered...We have learned much here, and with that knowledge, we will take those extreme measures, we will do whatever it takes...I will do whatever Mr. W asks and more-I want to go that extra mile, Mr. W deserves that, we are worth it...Just recently I offered to have a GPS system put in my car-I did this out of the blue, as Mr. W has never mentioned this-it is important for me to show him in word and deed how remorseful I am, and how committed I am to him, our marriage and family...Mr. W's loving and forgiving attitude towards me makes me want to do this even more for him, for us...I have told him many times that he is more than welcome to check up on me in any way that he desires...I firmly believe that you should INSPECT what you EXPECT...I would view him doing anything of that sort, as a loving act of protection for the good of our marriage and family...

There is, of course a part of me that would like to view myself as stronger than some "magic OM power"...No one likes to think of themselves as weak to something, I accept that I am, and I don't need to go just check and see...To do so, would be pompous, selfish, and cruel, not to mention just plain STUPID...I am not so brazen or deluded to think that I, who clearly screwed up MAJOR already, would know more than Dr. Harley and all the other MBers who have walked this horrible walk before me...Dr. Harley says that as a FWS, somewhere inside me I still have a low flame for OM, he is the expert, and I will take him at his word...I made a very foolish, selfish choice, but I have learned, processed, internalized, sometimes I have just taken a leap of faith, but always based on MB principles...So I am no longer a selfish fool...

I will NEVER guide with my "feelings" again-Because though I may not "feel" that OM has a pull on me, logic, reason, and professional expert advice say otherwise...Further, I led with my "feelings" before, and suffice it to say, that didn't work out too well...That is perhaps one of the most important lessons that I have learned here at MB, "feelings" do not serve as a wise means of making responsible choices and decisions-I know that for those "thinkers" out there this seems like a no brainer, but I have always been a "feeler", and so for me it has been a HUGE life altering realization-A real "AH HA moment"...

Stanley, I think that so far we are on the same page, maybe not...Here is where the fork in the road may be...The loyalty issue...I just don't think I have that, and I have REALLY thought about this a TON...I have talked it out with Mr. W, I have come up with scenario after scenario trying to test that theory...Because I want to know, I don't want to lie to myself...It is important for me to know...I started this, what has now become a MONSTER post (sorry, btw), for 2 reasons:

#1. I wanted to make sure that you as a BS knew that it really was possible for a FWW to completely be free of OM if she so chose and took extreme measures...Forgive me if my wanting you to know that is insulting Stanley, admittedly, I don't know your story, so perhaps you don't really even need this info-you have been here longer than I, after all...But your post hit on what I was trying to figure out right now-I wondered if you really believed that, in your case have you had evidence to support that theory? Or are you basing it soley on what you've seen here from others?

and

#2 I am posting this because I REALLY AND TRULY WANT THE TRUTH, ABOUT ME...If that means that I take 2 x 4's, I fully accept that, 2 x 4's are typically uncomfortable truths that the poster is unable to see for themselves...I promise to listen and no matter how harsh it might get, I solemnly VOW to all here, that I will NEVER, EVER make a "Goodbye Cruel Forum" door slamming post...NO WAY...Certainly not to a place that I have learned so much from and owe so much to...

I do have a couple of example's of what I consider to be lack of loyalty to OM that I would like to share...

The affair ended in June 05, in September 05, OM's ex-wife called me...I was shocked to say the least...Btw, OM was divorced for one full year before he contacted me through classmatesdotcom...Anyway, OM's exw told me that their DD6 had been telling her that "Mrs. W lied" repeatedly, almost incessantly, and she just wanted to get to the bottom of what this was about, as her exh, OM, would not speak with her about any of it...I am ashamed to say that I took our DD5(at the time) to a baseball game with OM and his DD5...There was not any hand holding, etc. in front of the children, but I know that those two little girls should NEVER have been exposed to something so immoral and horrible...I KNOW...And on some level I know that children do know that something is NOT right, they are incredibly intuitive and bright...I told the OM's exw the truth...I confessed it all to her and apologized for subjecting her child to adultery...And Stanley, I did not do that out of vengence for OM, but out of wanting that mother to know the truth about her little girl and what I and her father had subjected that child to, that mother had a right to know...I fully recognized, that it was not my responsibility to shield him from the consequences of his own poor life choices, nor did I have any desire to, telling the truth felt good, I felt I was doing a good thing for that mother and her child...His exw then got really odd, and called me again-inviting us all to her DD's birthday party(out of state)-HUH? I have only seen this woman once in my life, way back in high school...Her agenda: to shock her exh by having my family there...UM, NO...I explained that I could never have contact with OM again and that necessarily included her dd...still she persisted...asking if I would at least let my dd5 talk on the phone to hers, so that her dd5 would mention it to exh/OM...WHAT? Again, UM, NO...I told her to call her exh and tell him that she called me and asked and I gave her the facts...I had no reason to hide that I told the truth-I never told her not to tell her exh that I told her...I am sincere in telling you this...Stanley, do you see loyalty to OM in that? Really, those are the facts, Mr. W can confirm them...

And of course, because infidelity truly is the gift that keeps giving, there is more...

In Feburary, Mr. W, myself and our dd6 went to Jamaica for 7 days for winter break...GREAT VACATION...Came home, the next morning Mr. W goes to work, I go to check my email...TOTAL SHOCK, THERE IS AN OM EMAIL...I didn't open it, and I could NOT dial the phone fast enough...Mr. W said open it and read it to me...I did...OM was spewing a bunch of hooey about whether I called his exw, or whether she called me, how dare I, now the whole world knows, now there were custody issues at hand, why would I have done this, blah, blah, blah...Mr. W and I formulated a response together, stating facts only, and further making it clear that OM was NEVER to contact me again...We told him that his initial email had been forwarded to Mr. W and that this response was being cc'd to him as well. Further, this was the last response that he would EVER get from me. (We made the mistake of not originally sending a NC letter-gotta follow Harley's advice-we get it now)...Still OM emails back, minutes later, I called Mr. W and forwarded it to him...We had already agreed that if OM were to make contact again that Mr. W would handle it alone...And handle it he did, with my full support and respect...Have not heard hide nor hair of OM since, and my money is on us not ever hearing from him again...Do you see loyalty to OM in that?

I don't feel loyalty to OM, I don't see it in those two instances...But perhaps I am blind to it...I honestly feel completely indifferent to him...I don't care if he thinks I'm nice, mean, beautiful, ugly, intelligent, stupid...pick an adjective, any adjective...What he thinks of me is of no significance to me...Won't change my life at all, because, (a) I don't care, and (b) I will never put myself in a position to find out because, well, refer to (a)-lol...So there you have it, the longest Mrs. W post in the history of MB...My diatribe...I welcome all comments, questions and/or 2 x 4's...For anyone that read this, but most especially Stanley, you poor tortured man, I would like to extend a genuine thank you, I know it was the "War and Peace" of posts and everyone's time is valuable, so I most definitely appreciate it...

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. Wondering,

I thought I would kill two birds with one stone. First, I wanted to give this thread a *bump* in case Stanley was on vacation.

Second, I just wanted to point out a HUGE spelling error in your post....



I think you get my drift. Ta! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KJ

Mrs. W:

I just read your kilometric post.

I wanted to mention that you wrote your longest post ever telling yourself over and over that you have zero feelings for OM.

Sounds like me writing over and over again that my wife never loved OM. Then, one day I realized I was becoming the master of self-delusion. Don’t get me wrong-------we all need delusion to survive in the planet.

By now you know that well-known FWWs have shown weakness for OMs on this board. I can tell you these women were as prolific as you with their MB prose and they wrote treatises about the how not to like OM.

My wife took my daughters to dinner with OM. I guess that is the same as a baseball game. If I had a concubine I would make sure my daughters never meet her----let alone have dinner with her. This means that many people in affairs are in La La land. If they are not in La La land then I cannot explain the behavior.

I know nothing about you, but I bet a case of “7-up” that your No. 1 EN is admiration and then conversation. Once your EN is met you behave like an addict. Obviously, not all people in the planet show this addictive trait, but many do. The latter will do wacky things to maintain the addiction. IMHO, that is why some people do and others don’t.

I read a huge chunk of affair emails. I know the deal quite well. It is hard to believe that once an extremely romantic affair is over the FWW will feel indifference for OM----------it is not likely. The analogy of sending the alcoholic to the bar to test his will is a good one.

BTW, I am another victim of classmates.com.

What made your OM so special to you?

LOL Stanley...Well, I certainly cannot stop you from infering anything that you would like. Clearly you are free to do just that. As for the length of my post...hmmm...Well, I'm pretty wordy about everything...In undergrad, the timed essays in Comp 101 quite nearly killed me...But in this case, length was for contextualization purposes, combined with trying to gain even the tinest shred of rapport with you-forgive me for saying so, but you haven't exactly presented as a very, warm and fuzzy guy...See, gaining rapport for me, is important, I am a natural born salesperson...That is me...I could talk forever about why the SEC is the best college conference there is, and how the Georgia Bulldogs are the greatest team to ever play the game, and give you all the reasons why I believe that to be true, and yet, I do not understand football at all...I'm an extravert...I have the gift of gab...So sue me...

Secondly, as I am sure that you are aware, as a FWW, I have to be very measured and detailed in much that I say here, because, with good reason, my posts, especially any where I talk specifically about my life, are naturally suspect...I fully understand and accept that, especially in light of the recent climate here...The one benefit that I am afforded, that many here are not, is that Mr. W is also is a regular poster to this forum...It is a good feeling to know that my strongest ally is never more than a post away...Maybe that's why I felt okay about going on what I have taken to calling my "Kamikaze Mission w/ Stanley"...LOL...I dunno...

Further, I am here at MB, holding myself under far more scrutiny than my husband does...It is very important for me to completely work through all of my internal issues that led me to make such a horrible choice...To do that, I have no choice but to "talk" here about the OM-which, btw is what I call him in my head and in discussions as well-I don't call him his name-just OM-that wasn't a concious choice either, it just happened as I have moved further along in this process. I also would argue that to sweep everything under the rug and not work through it would make one much more susceptible to repeating the behavior...I am choosing to learn from my mistakes, so that I am not destined to repeat them...MB is one of the ways that I am doing that...Also, how would I talk to you about your use blanket generalizations as opposed to how things are in my world, without using the term "OM"...Kinda like trying to argue yourself not crazy-almost impossible to do-but harder still without actually using the word crazy...

And you know, while I'm talking about my long post, you never answered my questions to you regarding the particular personal situations that I detailed there...Um, do you think that I typed all that out for my health? I NEVER ask questions that I don't want answered, do you?

I can also tell you that Mr. W and I approach all of this very openly...We freely talk about the affair...We are a bit different than others regarding that from what I have gathered...We've always talked openly about things-in fact, we've always been great conversationalists with each other...EXCEPT OBVIOUSLY, DURING THAT ONE FATEFUL TIME PERIOD...We got lazy...We just kinda thought "we" would always be the "we" that we had always been without nurturing the relationship-Life got in the way, we put us on the back burner and then we BOTH really disconnected...We withdrew from each other...He will be the first to tell you that ours was a marriage ripe for an affair...It was only a matter of who was presented with the "opportunity" first-we see that so very clearly now...That is really, really sad, because honestly, if you met us, you would be hard pressed to think of a more compatible couple. We just had no clue what dangerous territory we were on last year...Perhaps, that is why he has never been judgemental with me, and our recovery has been rather snag free...He is not a BS who has ever made a statement that he would NEVER have done what I did...He realizes that is not true...Before my affair, I was out of town, and he had taken our staff out for drinks, one of them, that he has admitted that he was attracted to, he invited to come back to our house for more drinks...She said no...What if she had said yes? It probably wouldn't have been a great story to tell our grandchildren, eh? So you see Stanley, I came close to being the BS in our situation...


I certainly can't speak to whether or not your wife actually loved her OM-though I would say in most cases that is NOT true...I can tell you that while I was in my affair, I thought that I loved OM-I was in a whirlwind...I can now see very clearly that that was most certainly not the case...I could give tons and tons of reasons why I know this to be true about myself. The problem is though, I can see that presenting you with anything other that what you have already decided is true about others you would just file under "self delusion" anyway-So, I'd be painted into a corner essentially-and honestly, it doesn't matter to me what you believe about me...I will say that your "case closed" attitude where that is concerned matters a great deal to you, your wife and the recovery of your marriage...

Your delusion theory is just plain odd to me...Why in the world would you need to be anything but honest with yourself if you are in a healthy state of mind? I do not understand this at all...I KNOW that I was delusional during my affair, I would never argue otherwise-leading two lives will do that to you...But now, I live very much in the present, with honesty and transparency...Sheesh, I constantly question my own motives and agendas...


Stanley, the thing is though, I am not Jen or Suzet or any other FWW for that matter...Yes, I am a FWW, that is true...Yes, affairs are very "cookie cutter", but people are not. I am certain that there are many people that have affairs, see the error of their ways, never falter again and go to their graves as repentant FWSes...I would certainly hope that you are not judging your wife by standards set by others. That would be unfair to both of you...

If you are indeed talking about Jen and Suzet...I would like to offer you my perspective regarding those two situations...First Jen, here's what I saw, more than a few times, I saw her get pretty defensive about things that were said about WSes...She had to be reminded on many occasions, that she was no longer a WS-I always thought it odd when I read posts where she appeared to be hurt about something said about a WS...

I chuckle as I type this, as it is not lost on me that that is just how you(and others, no doubt) see my call out of you Stanley-not true, you don't offend me at all with your perspectives, they are yours after all...When I read them though, your pain is written all over them...I was hoping to perhaps offer you even a glimmer of the notion that all FWW's are not exactly alike, which might help you move past the pain that comes through with your cynicism...I certainly understand that it might not be possible for me to have that ability with you...but I thought it worth a shot.

As for Suzet, well, as Dr. Phil says, "You can't change what you don't acknowledge"...I've been fully aware through out this whole process, that mine was indeed a big, fat ADULTEROUS AFFAIR...Pretty fair assessment if you ask me...


And Stanley, if you were to have a concubine, then you too would be in La La land...Therefore, you cannot predict what you would or wouldn't do with any accuracy...You simply do not know how you would behave in that situation...


Well, that is just hilarious, betting me a case of "7-up"...Tells me without question, that you most definitely, are NOT in sales of any kind...Take a look at my location, it tells you that I am a native of Atlanta, GA, and NO Atlantan worth their salt would EVER enter into any bet involving a Pepsi product as the ?prize?...Hahahahahaha...So bet all you want, but how 'bout we keep the "7-up" yours, okay? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, but seriously, you don't have to be clairvoyant to make that assumption about the EN's of a VERY wordy female FWS...Yes, Stanley, those are, in fact, my top two emotional needs...Is your implication that having those two ENs as the top 2 ENs automatically qualifies one as the owner of an addictive personality? I'm not sure that I follow you...Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it appears as though you find those EN's to be somehow wrong or flawed, should they top anyone's list, and that, quite frankly would just be odd...absurd really...Could you could be more clear please?

Here's the thing, I don't believe that there is any WS that doesn't behave like an addict, once their EN's are being met and all the bells and whistles begin to go off...I think that is just the nature of the infidelity beast...I also believe very strongly that there are brain chemicals involved in this type of "relationship"...I recently shared this about myself on the board...When I would be on the phone with OM, I actually had an extremely odd tingling feeling between my shoulder blades...It was not a pleasurable feeling actually, it was just really, really strange...A Dopamine rush, perhaps? I remain uncertain, but I know that it happened, so something was going on...

It also seems that you may believe that some people are immune from having affairs. Is that what you are saying Stanley? Dr. Harley certainly doesn't think so, and if you think that about yourself, then you are at an even greater risk of having an affair...Especially as a BS...



Don't you realize how false all the romantic baloney of an affair is? How juvenile? And actually, how very self serving that it all is? See, I don't know about your wife, but one of the first things that got through the fog for me was reading a question about whether or not I would choose the OM if I were single...And the answer to that question for me was an absolute and definitive NO...You just cannot imagine how much I "affaired down"...

Stanley, look at those emails for what they actually were...People in affairs are much like rats in a cage pushing a button to get a cocaine fix...The emails that you read were ones designed to ellicit the desired response from the OP, the pushing of the button, so to speak...The words were aimed at the OP were not real at all, they were just the currency required to bring about the desired high. Surely that makes sense to you, right? Stanley, until you process that, how can you trust if and when your wife ever does?

I agree that the alcoholic analogy is a good one...It is a MUST that a FWS accepts and completely understands their weakness to the OP, and then takes the extreme measures necessary to end all contact for life. But that is not because of love or loyalty Stanley, but rather due to the nature of addiction in general. The OP has proven to be toxic in this way for the FWS...There are many recovering alcoholics and drug addicts that have no desire to return to the ways of addiction, THEY HATE THE ALCOHOL AND THE DRUGS...I assert that it is the ones that respect the power of their weakness, internalize and accept it, that do not relapse...That is the key, wouldn't you agree?


Do you still see yourself as a victim Stanley? I can tell you with certainty that Mr. W does not view himself like that at all. In the way you phrased that, in fact, it made it sound like you were even saying that I was a victim of that website...I certainly don't see myself as victim of anything other than my own stupidity and selfishness...Websites don't have affairs, people do...The affair was my choice, a really horrible one, but a choice no less...


Now, this is funny...I MEAN REALLY FUNNY...Because OM could have been ANYBODY-He was just a drug fix after all-anybody who would have said the things that I wanted/needed to hear at the time would have sufficed in the role just fine...Who he was didn't matter at all...The issue is that I allowed someone other than my husband to meet my ENs...He wasn't special at all...He was another person who was miserable at the same time in life that I was miserable and he emailed me, and then called me, the slippery slope was steep...And then we, COMMISERATED...Two soul sick individuals stroking fragile, broken egos...Not a real pretty picture, much less a recipe for any type of success, huh?

Stanley, I have no idea where you are in your recovery...In your posts, I hear you saying that you believe that your wife is in love with her OM...I hear you saying that you feel second best...I don't know you, but I don't read joy in you at all...And I am sorry if I am right about any of that...But if I am right, could that have to do with some of the blanket generalizations you put in your posts, you also pass along to your wife? I will tell you that if Mr. W said to me, the things that you say in your posts about FWW's, our recovery would be so stalled and stagnant...Recovery is something that must be worked in tandem-it's not a you first deal...I fear that if you don't have faith that your wife is an individual and not just a statistic, and that if you don't have faith that things can change, then you won't be able to trust if and when things actually do change...

Anyway, thank you for reading, yet another epic post...Perhaps we both can learn something from each of our unique perspectives...I appreciate your time and consideration...If I'm not mistaken, your wife posts here as well, right? I would certainly welcome her input here too...

I hope that you have a nice holiday weekend...

Mrs. W

A long paragraph to demonstrate you are defensive about what I said regarding WWs that fall of the bandwagon.


Mrs. W I believe you failed to see that some of my remarks were made tongue in cheek. However, I must explain to you that I use the term delusion in a non-pathological manner. I see it as a useful mechanism to cope when things are not going well. Your post shows you use this mechanism rather well and that is completely NORMAL.


There is no way in purgatory that you can read that from my post. I think you are on your way to build a straw man. At about 16 months past d-day I was near 100% recovered------- until I had a recurrence at the two year anniversary. Right now I am back to 99%. I will let you know when I am 100% recovered. I also admit that the 1% sometimes makes me a little bit sarcastic. However, sarcasm is a foreign concept to you because you failed to detect that in my post.





First you disagree with me—then a few lines down you agree with me. Is this a post fog complication? Ooops—I hope you note that this is a humor from my part.





I agree with you 100%. In fact, I believe recovery is likely when OM is a complete loser that cannot compete with the H in daylight.



As soon as I wrote that I knew you would come back with the “concept of victim status”. No I am not a victim. In fact I never felt that way. However, classmates.com has facilitated a ton of affairs since its inception. In my case classmates.com was the facilitator. It is very much like being in the wrong place at the wrong time due to strange unusual circumstances. Now, you are going to say that my marriage was ripe for an affair. OK, more sarcasm for you. My marriage was 9/10. However, any marriage 9/10 is still fair game for an affair if all the ingredients are there. The calm and peace of a long-term marriage can precipitate an affair.



Well, I am not like your H. I had a good marriage before the A. Therefore, I love busted my wife after the affair and probably do every once in a awhile. In fact when she reads this she will take it as a love buster.

I am farther ahead than you in recovery and I enjoy the marriage to my wife quite a bit. But, do not expect me to be normal again----not so soon.

Mrs. W -

Hi. I don’t think I’ve ever posted to you before, but after reading your protests about not having feelings for FOM, and before reading Stanley’s post, I was also thinking that it seems like you “protest too much.” I hate to say it, but it makes a difference that your H posts and reads here, too. I understand what you’re saying about posting with him in order to be more honest, but at the same time, you also have to be more careful what you post since he reads it.

I’m not posting to make you mad - I’m posting because I think FWW’s who use this board can make an effort to keep each other “in check.” Are you saying you don’t have feelings for FOM, or that you are no longer vulnerable to FOM (the addiction, attention, drama, etc)? There’s a difference. I believe that you believe that you are different from the FWW’s who have slipped recently (there was also an old-timer, very popular FWW poster on the Recovery forum a couple weeks ago who admitted that she was not honest about her feelings for FOM when she posted here regularly a few years ago).

I agree and understand about not having feelings for FOM (except maybe negative ones), but have to insist that is different from believing we are no longer vulnerable (to the addiction, attention, drama, etc). Maybe that’s what you have been saying, though. (Being prolific is o.k., but shorter, more “to the point” posts might be easier to read and understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

My main point is that we become more vulnerable when we believe we are not vulnerable. I do recognize that you have said you are taking precautions now to protect your M (including NC), which is the answer to being vulnerable, after all.

Well, I hope this is received in the spirit with which it is given. I mean no offense at all, and wish you well on your continued recovery journey.

God bless,
Rose

Rose:

If I could post like you do life would be even greater amd more exciting------ahhh!!!!!

Stanley-

LOL. I don't know what to say except, "I try." No guarantees on the "greater and more exciting" life, though.

God bless,
Rose

SIGH...LOL...

Mrs. W

Interesting outside perspective.

A very important, and albeit common, misunderstanding of the fundamental issue in an A.

The A is not about the OP. Its not even truly about the M. Its about the WS's internal issues and inability to deal with those issues in a direct and healthy manner.

Ultimately, OP is only a tool--like a mirror. The WS attraction is to her own image in the eyes of the OP, not to the OP himself.

This being the case, the feelings do change when the internal issues are addressed. And they do become 'indifference' for the OP--can you love an tool?

If those issues are not addressed, of course, the WS (FWS) will maintain a "weakness" to the OP and illusions OP represents.

My guess, without knowing Suzet's situation is that she has not yet addressed inside of her--what drives her to seek OM attention.

Ahuman - you are BANG on...for example - even in my hate, my need for a long to wonder and hope the OM still thought kindly of me - had NOTHING to do with my desire to rekindle things - he disgusted me...it had to do with my own internal need of people liking me no matter what? Make sense?

As I solved that conflict within me...that need has gone away and finally has really become indifference...

It's why - even 19 months later - aspects are changing as I go...and none of it is about the OM - it didn't matter who he was...it's about what was happening in me...19 months later and I STILL find things to work on...

I have the same guess as Ahuman - that in the recent cases on here with contact, it was not a weakness to the OM, it was a weakness to never address what was happening inside.

That being said - I will STILL never chance contact with my OM - ever...as I dont want to TEST my changes...I just want to keep changing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A BIG SINCERE THANK YOU TO AHUMAN AND DORRY FOR UNDERSTANDING EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT!!! PHEW!!!

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is the quote from which this entire conversation is born. The "ALWAYS" part, we believed needed analysis and discussion. Mrs. W and I have attempted to figure out this blanket statement and attempted to test it for accuracy. We hope/hoped everyone including Stanley and ourselves could maybe learn something from the discussion.

Mrs. W and I (until now, behind the scenes) were putting ourselves out there a bit to explore this issue. My wife has gone to such great lengths with her words for the express purpose of attempting to break through the tendency herein to scrutinize FWW's posts about OM and the "affair" for fogginess. That is a nearly impossible tap dance. To much, your obsessed, to little and serious implications are drawn. WE get that. Suffice it to say, she/we have attempted to close off all avenues of skepticism her/our way in order to focus and delve deeper into the perceived issues we see in the stated generalization. Didn’t work…lol…so I, the BS am trying again. Crash and burn perhaps, but I’ll try.

I, for one (and I guess the only one that matters) have faith and extreme confidence that Mrs. W has NO real, imaginary, delusional or other feelings for the OM in our sitch; however, based upon MB, Dr. Harley, the recent downfall of others herein who may or may not have believed the same things about their OM, do acknowledge the possibility of an addictive quality about affairs that puts her/us at risk with ANY contact with OM in particular, let alone allowing any other man to meet her emotional needs of admiration and conversation beside ME.

Does acknowledging that risk regarding OM, in and of itself, necessarily mean she retains some sort of feelings or loyalty for the OM? I very much don't think so but am open to discuss it.

Isn't it a common concept around here that affairs are NOT really about LOVE and LOYALTY...they are about the addiction and personal weaknesses (which we all are susceptible to). Your posts both seemingly acknowledge this but yet, Stanley still years into recovery continues to throw out the blanket statement above about "loyalty". To the point of even reading into my wife’s posts which clearly upon careful read state otherwise. Discussing OM openly and honestly does not necessarily equate feelings.

Stanley, this is not an attack on you. Though you say it’s impossible, we BOTH glean pain in your posts...that pain being a lack of faith in your FORMER, REPENTENT wayward wife which we infer when you projected your lack of faith onto ALL FWW's herein. We apologize again if our inference misses the mark.

Finally, by what yardstick do you measure that you are further ahead in recovery than I/us? Is there a yardstick or other measuring device out there I don't know about. I'd love to bring it to the marketplace and make a killing. lol. Anyway, notice my signature line below, it says "Recovered". In fact, I've personally felt recovered for a long time. We are still processing some stuff TOGETHER...but only in the effort to protect our marriage, deal with issues pre-affair, deal with my wife’s medical condition (which we don’t discuss herein but it's NOT mental, lol), and to build/sustain/deepen a Harley/MB, more intimate, and "affair-proof" marriage. I/we couldn't give a crap about OM, we were only discussing him herein to maybe assist you and aid the discussion.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Mrs. W IS different than both KIWI and SUZET* to me. she's not better than them and ironically we are both really grateful to them for the recent lessons we have learned from their fall(s) from grace; however, I have faith, trust and conviction that she differs from them in the fact that SHE is NOT going to ever reignite or resume her affair with OM. It's not a blind faith/trust, Mrs. W AND I have internalized the risks, made the choices necessary to completely and fully adopt TO THE LETTER the narrow path prescribed by Dr. Harley. We also have TOGETHER established many mutual "accountability" friends herein. WE ARE going to "follow the MB path" of NO CONTACT (as well as maintianing a romantic-loving relationship) to protect US despite my/our trusted faith and confidence that OM is COMPLETELY irrelevant to both of us. Harley says avoid the source of the addiction so despite my "feeling" that we could go to her high school reunion and see OM, for example, without risk, we will instead not go and adhere to the professional herein.

p.p.s. - This is hard stuff...putting this out there!!! I hope SOMEBODY gets something out of it.

The reflection in the mirror theory is attractive, but I am less delusional than the average Joe. We tend to forget our inate drive to spread the seed----and that is more than just a mirror.

Eventually the OM becomes nothing----I agree. But, prior romantic relationships also become nothing. That is life!

More later!

Rose, did you read her post? She said exactly what you just suggested. She understands her own vulnerabilities to the OM and stated such. That is what differentiates her from the WS' on this forum who had recent "slips," if you will. She knows full well that she can fall back into that trap again if she resumes any kind of contact and has taken steps to make sure contact is not resumed.

Read her post:


Sure, she could be in denial, but I dont' think so. Her posts are honest and sincere and she is the only one in a position to know how she really feels. I find her explanation very convincing, because it lines right up with my feeling about alcohol.

As a recovering alcoholic with 21 years of sobriety, I have nothing but feelings of revulsion for alcohol. I feel revolted when I go into a bar and smell the booze. To drink again is about as appealing to me as committing myself to a Nazi concentration camp after I have been liberated by the allies.

However, I absolutely know that I could LOVE booze again REAL DAMN QUICK if I just had one little drink. I know that is all it would take. I absolutely respect the power of alcohol and simply don't ever place myself at its mercy. That fantasy could easily come back if I allowed it. However, as long as I stay away from it, I can stay in a frame of mind that is realistic and sane.

This is exactly what MrsW has said, and this is why I can relate to her perspective. I don't see anything here that makes my bullcrap moniter go off.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> *snicker* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Love my equally wordy husband "herein" and "hereout" too!!!-LAWYERS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...YOU ROCK "Sugar Britches"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Stanley,

When I say your forum name to myself, all I can picture is that kid in the cartoon "Stanley." He's really short with a big head!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Now THAT'S sarcastic humor!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, here's my .02 on this subject (oh, by the way, I'm a FWW). IMO, Mrs. W is simply trying to state that all FWW's are different, that we can't be judged according to the behavior of other FWW's who have lapsed back into the world of fantasy and delusions. But why leave it only to FWW's? Aren't we ALL different? Don't we all agree some people are more suseptible to A's than others? Don't we all agree that A's suck? I once heard a quote (no idea who it was from) that I had a hard time accepting, until I had an A. "There is no realilty, only perceptions." The longer I live, the more I believe this.

Mrs. W is a great person. I could be way off, but I believe she wants you to accept her for who she is, a human being committed to the recovery of her M. Why she finds it important for you to see this, I can't say. I do know, it personally helps me to type out things on this forum sometimes, just so I can read them back to myself, to assure myself I am on the right path. Perhaps Mrs. W is doing just that with her oh-so-lengthy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> posts on this thread. If she has to say it over and over again in order to believe she has no feelings for OM, then so be it, especially if the alternative is for her to begin having feelings of attraction toward the OM once again. Know what I mean?

I read somewhere in Dr. Harley's materials, that a FWS will always hold some fond memories of the OP if it was an EA. Personally, I believe this. I had a hard time admitting I believed this because I thought it sounded like fog-talk. Then I took a step back, and realized how natural it is to have feelings for someone you truely found attractive at one time. Albeit a fantasy, you still gave a part of your heart to someone. IMO, it's like what you might feel for the boy or girl you first kissed. You hold a special place in your heart for that tender moment because you allowed yourself to be just a little bit vulnerable, and it felt good. This being said, let me make it perfectly clear that I DO NOT condone a FWS sitting around daydreaming about the OP!! What I am talking about is a memory, something we can reflect on, and learn from. When I have a fond memory of the OP, or something fun we did together, I grab my H and dosie-doe!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Why? Because NOW is what's important, and NOW I want to make fond memories with my H.

See, I've written all of this, and even if no one gives a crap about it, I feel better for writing it. I am going home to my H now, to meet his #2 EN!! Just never you mind what THAT might be!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

KJ

10-4.

Stan-ley: This issue does, however, seemed to have struck a chord with you. Why?

Thank you Miss Kari Jean...You are actually a smarty!!! What a trickster you are!!! LOL!

But you are right, we are all different...

See, because if I ever do have a flashback memory of OM, it is with a sharp pang of realization, regret and remorse about what I put at such great risk..All that is so very dear and precious to me...I now view things from a marital and family perspective, and not just from a me perspective...OM was a tool that I used to make me feel better about me-drawing from the external-not drawing from the internal...So I don't have fond memories of that, I sincerely don't...And really, I suppose it doesn't matter that anyone but Mr. W and myself know this with certainty, because, yes, we are all very different...Clearly I was wrong to think that my perspective could be helpful to anyone else where that is concerned, because it is just my perspective/perception after all...

Mrs. W

To use the lingo of one of my MB faves around here...

I LOVES ME SOME MELODY LANE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thank You So Much...

Mrs. W