-emphasis mine







Hi Stanley...

I hope you won't mind, but I just wanted to continue a bit further with you...The other thread already has so many tangents that I just thought it best to start another one...I'm not picking on you, I really just want to share and get your input (along with others) if I might?

First, I want you to know that I did not intend you any disrespect by posting what I did to you on Suzet's thread...I really wanted to convey how I felt in a light-hearted manner...Though, obviously it is certainly NOT a subject to be taken lightly...

I also would like to say that I have agreed with almost every single thing that you have said in your posts to that thread...Actually, I believe that may be the first time that I've ever had the opportunity to read any of your posts...Even here, I think we may actually be agreeing, but are perhaps using different words...But I'm not sure, and when you have the time I would like to hear your thoughts...

Right off the bat, let me say that I COMPLETELY, 1000000% agree with everything that Dr. Harley says regarding no contact for life...In fact, even more vehemently so, now than ever, in light of the recent FWW to WW happenings...As a matter of fact, my 20 year high school reunion is coming up next summer, Mr. W and I had planned to go, even knowing that there was a chance that OM would be there...Mr. W was OK with that, and he posts here regularly, so he can certainly confirm this...In light of all that I have seen here, combined with the advice that Dr. Harley himself gives on his radio show, I have changed my view, we are NOT going...NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is worth risking my marriage and family over-especially not a silly high school reunion-that just doesn't make good sense when logic, reason and professional expert advice are considered...We have learned much here, and with that knowledge, we will take those extreme measures, we will do whatever it takes...I will do whatever Mr. W asks and more-I want to go that extra mile, Mr. W deserves that, we are worth it...Just recently I offered to have a GPS system put in my car-I did this out of the blue, as Mr. W has never mentioned this-it is important for me to show him in word and deed how remorseful I am, and how committed I am to him, our marriage and family...Mr. W's loving and forgiving attitude towards me makes me want to do this even more for him, for us...I have told him many times that he is more than welcome to check up on me in any way that he desires...I firmly believe that you should INSPECT what you EXPECT...I would view him doing anything of that sort, as a loving act of protection for the good of our marriage and family...

There is, of course a part of me that would like to view myself as stronger than some "magic OM power"...No one likes to think of themselves as weak to something, I accept that I am, and I don't need to go just check and see...To do so, would be pompous, selfish, and cruel, not to mention just plain STUPID...I am not so brazen or deluded to think that I, who clearly screwed up MAJOR already, would know more than Dr. Harley and all the other MBers who have walked this horrible walk before me...Dr. Harley says that as a FWS, somewhere inside me I still have a low flame for OM, he is the expert, and I will take him at his word...I made a very foolish, selfish choice, but I have learned, processed, internalized, sometimes I have just taken a leap of faith, but always based on MB principles...So I am no longer a selfish fool...

I will NEVER guide with my "feelings" again-Because though I may not "feel" that OM has a pull on me, logic, reason, and professional expert advice say otherwise...Further, I led with my "feelings" before, and suffice it to say, that didn't work out too well...That is perhaps one of the most important lessons that I have learned here at MB, "feelings" do not serve as a wise means of making responsible choices and decisions-I know that for those "thinkers" out there this seems like a no brainer, but I have always been a "feeler", and so for me it has been a HUGE life altering realization-A real "AH HA moment"...

Stanley, I think that so far we are on the same page, maybe not...Here is where the fork in the road may be...The loyalty issue...I just don't think I have that, and I have REALLY thought about this a TON...I have talked it out with Mr. W, I have come up with scenario after scenario trying to test that theory...Because I want to know, I don't want to lie to myself...It is important for me to know...I started this, what has now become a MONSTER post (sorry, btw), for 2 reasons:

#1. I wanted to make sure that you as a BS knew that it really was possible for a FWW to completely be free of OM if she so chose and took extreme measures...Forgive me if my wanting you to know that is insulting Stanley, admittedly, I don't know your story, so perhaps you don't really even need this info-you have been here longer than I, after all...But your post hit on what I was trying to figure out right now-I wondered if you really believed that, in your case have you had evidence to support that theory? Or are you basing it soley on what you've seen here from others?

and

#2 I am posting this because I REALLY AND TRULY WANT THE TRUTH, ABOUT ME...If that means that I take 2 x 4's, I fully accept that, 2 x 4's are typically uncomfortable truths that the poster is unable to see for themselves...I promise to listen and no matter how harsh it might get, I solemnly VOW to all here, that I will NEVER, EVER make a "Goodbye Cruel Forum" door slamming post...NO WAY...Certainly not to a place that I have learned so much from and owe so much to...

I do have a couple of example's of what I consider to be lack of loyalty to OM that I would like to share...

The affair ended in June 05, in September 05, OM's ex-wife called me...I was shocked to say the least...Btw, OM was divorced for one full year before he contacted me through classmatesdotcom...Anyway, OM's exw told me that their DD6 had been telling her that "Mrs. W lied" repeatedly, almost incessantly, and she just wanted to get to the bottom of what this was about, as her exh, OM, would not speak with her about any of it...I am ashamed to say that I took our DD5(at the time) to a baseball game with OM and his DD5...There was not any hand holding, etc. in front of the children, but I know that those two little girls should NEVER have been exposed to something so immoral and horrible...I KNOW...And on some level I know that children do know that something is NOT right, they are incredibly intuitive and bright...I told the OM's exw the truth...I confessed it all to her and apologized for subjecting her child to adultery...And Stanley, I did not do that out of vengence for OM, but out of wanting that mother to know the truth about her little girl and what I and her father had subjected that child to, that mother had a right to know...I fully recognized, that it was not my responsibility to shield him from the consequences of his own poor life choices, nor did I have any desire to, telling the truth felt good, I felt I was doing a good thing for that mother and her child...His exw then got really odd, and called me again-inviting us all to her DD's birthday party(out of state)-HUH? I have only seen this woman once in my life, way back in high school...Her agenda: to shock her exh by having my family there...UM, NO...I explained that I could never have contact with OM again and that necessarily included her dd...still she persisted...asking if I would at least let my dd5 talk on the phone to hers, so that her dd5 would mention it to exh/OM...WHAT? Again, UM, NO...I told her to call her exh and tell him that she called me and asked and I gave her the facts...I had no reason to hide that I told the truth-I never told her not to tell her exh that I told her...I am sincere in telling you this...Stanley, do you see loyalty to OM in that? Really, those are the facts, Mr. W can confirm them...

And of course, because infidelity truly is the gift that keeps giving, there is more...

In Feburary, Mr. W, myself and our dd6 went to Jamaica for 7 days for winter break...GREAT VACATION...Came home, the next morning Mr. W goes to work, I go to check my email...TOTAL SHOCK, THERE IS AN OM EMAIL...I didn't open it, and I could NOT dial the phone fast enough...Mr. W said open it and read it to me...I did...OM was spewing a bunch of hooey about whether I called his exw, or whether she called me, how dare I, now the whole world knows, now there were custody issues at hand, why would I have done this, blah, blah, blah...Mr. W and I formulated a response together, stating facts only, and further making it clear that OM was NEVER to contact me again...We told him that his initial email had been forwarded to Mr. W and that this response was being cc'd to him as well. Further, this was the last response that he would EVER get from me. (We made the mistake of not originally sending a NC letter-gotta follow Harley's advice-we get it now)...Still OM emails back, minutes later, I called Mr. W and forwarded it to him...We had already agreed that if OM were to make contact again that Mr. W would handle it alone...And handle it he did, with my full support and respect...Have not heard hide nor hair of OM since, and my money is on us not ever hearing from him again...Do you see loyalty to OM in that?

I don't feel loyalty to OM, I don't see it in those two instances...But perhaps I am blind to it...I honestly feel completely indifferent to him...I don't care if he thinks I'm nice, mean, beautiful, ugly, intelligent, stupid...pick an adjective, any adjective...What he thinks of me is of no significance to me...Won't change my life at all, because, (a) I don't care, and (b) I will never put myself in a position to find out because, well, refer to (a)-lol...So there you have it, the longest Mrs. W post in the history of MB...My diatribe...I welcome all comments, questions and/or 2 x 4's...For anyone that read this, but most especially Stanley, you poor tortured man, I would like to extend a genuine thank you, I know it was the "War and Peace" of posts and everyone's time is valuable, so I most definitely appreciate it...

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. Wondering,

I thought I would kill two birds with one stone. First, I wanted to give this thread a *bump* in case Stanley was on vacation.

Second, I just wanted to point out a HUGE spelling error in your post....



I think you get my drift. Ta! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KJ

Mrs. W:

I just read your kilometric post.

I wanted to mention that you wrote your longest post ever telling yourself over and over that you have zero feelings for OM.

Sounds like me writing over and over again that my wife never loved OM. Then, one day I realized I was becoming the master of self-delusion. Don’t get me wrong-------we all need delusion to survive in the planet.

By now you know that well-known FWWs have shown weakness for OMs on this board. I can tell you these women were as prolific as you with their MB prose and they wrote treatises about the how not to like OM.

My wife took my daughters to dinner with OM. I guess that is the same as a baseball game. If I had a concubine I would make sure my daughters never meet her----let alone have dinner with her. This means that many people in affairs are in La La land. If they are not in La La land then I cannot explain the behavior.

I know nothing about you, but I bet a case of “7-up” that your No. 1 EN is admiration and then conversation. Once your EN is met you behave like an addict. Obviously, not all people in the planet show this addictive trait, but many do. The latter will do wacky things to maintain the addiction. IMHO, that is why some people do and others don’t.

I read a huge chunk of affair emails. I know the deal quite well. It is hard to believe that once an extremely romantic affair is over the FWW will feel indifference for OM----------it is not likely. The analogy of sending the alcoholic to the bar to test his will is a good one.

BTW, I am another victim of classmates.com.

What made your OM so special to you?

LOL Stanley...Well, I certainly cannot stop you from infering anything that you would like. Clearly you are free to do just that. As for the length of my post...hmmm...Well, I'm pretty wordy about everything...In undergrad, the timed essays in Comp 101 quite nearly killed me...But in this case, length was for contextualization purposes, combined with trying to gain even the tinest shred of rapport with you-forgive me for saying so, but you haven't exactly presented as a very, warm and fuzzy guy...See, gaining rapport for me, is important, I am a natural born salesperson...That is me...I could talk forever about why the SEC is the best college conference there is, and how the Georgia Bulldogs are the greatest team to ever play the game, and give you all the reasons why I believe that to be true, and yet, I do not understand football at all...I'm an extravert...I have the gift of gab...So sue me...

Secondly, as I am sure that you are aware, as a FWW, I have to be very measured and detailed in much that I say here, because, with good reason, my posts, especially any where I talk specifically about my life, are naturally suspect...I fully understand and accept that, especially in light of the recent climate here...The one benefit that I am afforded, that many here are not, is that Mr. W is also is a regular poster to this forum...It is a good feeling to know that my strongest ally is never more than a post away...Maybe that's why I felt okay about going on what I have taken to calling my "Kamikaze Mission w/ Stanley"...LOL...I dunno...

Further, I am here at MB, holding myself under far more scrutiny than my husband does...It is very important for me to completely work through all of my internal issues that led me to make such a horrible choice...To do that, I have no choice but to "talk" here about the OM-which, btw is what I call him in my head and in discussions as well-I don't call him his name-just OM-that wasn't a concious choice either, it just happened as I have moved further along in this process. I also would argue that to sweep everything under the rug and not work through it would make one much more susceptible to repeating the behavior...I am choosing to learn from my mistakes, so that I am not destined to repeat them...MB is one of the ways that I am doing that...Also, how would I talk to you about your use blanket generalizations as opposed to how things are in my world, without using the term "OM"...Kinda like trying to argue yourself not crazy-almost impossible to do-but harder still without actually using the word crazy...

And you know, while I'm talking about my long post, you never answered my questions to you regarding the particular personal situations that I detailed there...Um, do you think that I typed all that out for my health? I NEVER ask questions that I don't want answered, do you?

I can also tell you that Mr. W and I approach all of this very openly...We freely talk about the affair...We are a bit different than others regarding that from what I have gathered...We've always talked openly about things-in fact, we've always been great conversationalists with each other...EXCEPT OBVIOUSLY, DURING THAT ONE FATEFUL TIME PERIOD...We got lazy...We just kinda thought "we" would always be the "we" that we had always been without nurturing the relationship-Life got in the way, we put us on the back burner and then we BOTH really disconnected...We withdrew from each other...He will be the first to tell you that ours was a marriage ripe for an affair...It was only a matter of who was presented with the "opportunity" first-we see that so very clearly now...That is really, really sad, because honestly, if you met us, you would be hard pressed to think of a more compatible couple. We just had no clue what dangerous territory we were on last year...Perhaps, that is why he has never been judgemental with me, and our recovery has been rather snag free...He is not a BS who has ever made a statement that he would NEVER have done what I did...He realizes that is not true...Before my affair, I was out of town, and he had taken our staff out for drinks, one of them, that he has admitted that he was attracted to, he invited to come back to our house for more drinks...She said no...What if she had said yes? It probably wouldn't have been a great story to tell our grandchildren, eh? So you see Stanley, I came close to being the BS in our situation...


I certainly can't speak to whether or not your wife actually loved her OM-though I would say in most cases that is NOT true...I can tell you that while I was in my affair, I thought that I loved OM-I was in a whirlwind...I can now see very clearly that that was most certainly not the case...I could give tons and tons of reasons why I know this to be true about myself. The problem is though, I can see that presenting you with anything other that what you have already decided is true about others you would just file under "self delusion" anyway-So, I'd be painted into a corner essentially-and honestly, it doesn't matter to me what you believe about me...I will say that your "case closed" attitude where that is concerned matters a great deal to you, your wife and the recovery of your marriage...

Your delusion theory is just plain odd to me...Why in the world would you need to be anything but honest with yourself if you are in a healthy state of mind? I do not understand this at all...I KNOW that I was delusional during my affair, I would never argue otherwise-leading two lives will do that to you...But now, I live very much in the present, with honesty and transparency...Sheesh, I constantly question my own motives and agendas...


Stanley, the thing is though, I am not Jen or Suzet or any other FWW for that matter...Yes, I am a FWW, that is true...Yes, affairs are very "cookie cutter", but people are not. I am certain that there are many people that have affairs, see the error of their ways, never falter again and go to their graves as repentant FWSes...I would certainly hope that you are not judging your wife by standards set by others. That would be unfair to both of you...

If you are indeed talking about Jen and Suzet...I would like to offer you my perspective regarding those two situations...First Jen, here's what I saw, more than a few times, I saw her get pretty defensive about things that were said about WSes...She had to be reminded on many occasions, that she was no longer a WS-I always thought it odd when I read posts where she appeared to be hurt about something said about a WS...

I chuckle as I type this, as it is not lost on me that that is just how you(and others, no doubt) see my call out of you Stanley-not true, you don't offend me at all with your perspectives, they are yours after all...When I read them though, your pain is written all over them...I was hoping to perhaps offer you even a glimmer of the notion that all FWW's are not exactly alike, which might help you move past the pain that comes through with your cynicism...I certainly understand that it might not be possible for me to have that ability with you...but I thought it worth a shot.

As for Suzet, well, as Dr. Phil says, "You can't change what you don't acknowledge"...I've been fully aware through out this whole process, that mine was indeed a big, fat ADULTEROUS AFFAIR...Pretty fair assessment if you ask me...


And Stanley, if you were to have a concubine, then you too would be in La La land...Therefore, you cannot predict what you would or wouldn't do with any accuracy...You simply do not know how you would behave in that situation...


Well, that is just hilarious, betting me a case of "7-up"...Tells me without question, that you most definitely, are NOT in sales of any kind...Take a look at my location, it tells you that I am a native of Atlanta, GA, and NO Atlantan worth their salt would EVER enter into any bet involving a Pepsi product as the ?prize?...Hahahahahaha...So bet all you want, but how 'bout we keep the "7-up" yours, okay? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, but seriously, you don't have to be clairvoyant to make that assumption about the EN's of a VERY wordy female FWS...Yes, Stanley, those are, in fact, my top two emotional needs...Is your implication that having those two ENs as the top 2 ENs automatically qualifies one as the owner of an addictive personality? I'm not sure that I follow you...Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it appears as though you find those EN's to be somehow wrong or flawed, should they top anyone's list, and that, quite frankly would just be odd...absurd really...Could you could be more clear please?

Here's the thing, I don't believe that there is any WS that doesn't behave like an addict, once their EN's are being met and all the bells and whistles begin to go off...I think that is just the nature of the infidelity beast...I also believe very strongly that there are brain chemicals involved in this type of "relationship"...I recently shared this about myself on the board...When I would be on the phone with OM, I actually had an extremely odd tingling feeling between my shoulder blades...It was not a pleasurable feeling actually, it was just really, really strange...A Dopamine rush, perhaps? I remain uncertain, but I know that it happened, so something was going on...

It also seems that you may believe that some people are immune from having affairs. Is that what you are saying Stanley? Dr. Harley certainly doesn't think so, and if you think that about yourself, then you are at an even greater risk of having an affair...Especially as a BS...



Don't you realize how false all the romantic baloney of an affair is? How juvenile? And actually, how very self serving that it all is? See, I don't know about your wife, but one of the first things that got through the fog for me was reading a question about whether or not I would choose the OM if I were single...And the answer to that question for me was an absolute and definitive NO...You just cannot imagine how much I "affaired down"...

Stanley, look at those emails for what they actually were...People in affairs are much like rats in a cage pushing a button to get a cocaine fix...The emails that you read were ones designed to ellicit the desired response from the OP, the pushing of the button, so to speak...The words were aimed at the OP were not real at all, they were just the currency required to bring about the desired high. Surely that makes sense to you, right? Stanley, until you process that, how can you trust if and when your wife ever does?

I agree that the alcoholic analogy is a good one...It is a MUST that a FWS accepts and completely understands their weakness to the OP, and then takes the extreme measures necessary to end all contact for life. But that is not because of love or loyalty Stanley, but rather due to the nature of addiction in general. The OP has proven to be toxic in this way for the FWS...There are many recovering alcoholics and drug addicts that have no desire to return to the ways of addiction, THEY HATE THE ALCOHOL AND THE DRUGS...I assert that it is the ones that respect the power of their weakness, internalize and accept it, that do not relapse...That is the key, wouldn't you agree?


Do you still see yourself as a victim Stanley? I can tell you with certainty that Mr. W does not view himself like that at all. In the way you phrased that, in fact, it made it sound like you were even saying that I was a victim of that website...I certainly don't see myself as victim of anything other than my own stupidity and selfishness...Websites don't have affairs, people do...The affair was my choice, a really horrible one, but a choice no less...


Now, this is funny...I MEAN REALLY FUNNY...Because OM could have been ANYBODY-He was just a drug fix after all-anybody who would have said the things that I wanted/needed to hear at the time would have sufficed in the role just fine...Who he was didn't matter at all...The issue is that I allowed someone other than my husband to meet my ENs...He wasn't special at all...He was another person who was miserable at the same time in life that I was miserable and he emailed me, and then called me, the slippery slope was steep...And then we, COMMISERATED...Two soul sick individuals stroking fragile, broken egos...Not a real pretty picture, much less a recipe for any type of success, huh?

Stanley, I have no idea where you are in your recovery...In your posts, I hear you saying that you believe that your wife is in love with her OM...I hear you saying that you feel second best...I don't know you, but I don't read joy in you at all...And I am sorry if I am right about any of that...But if I am right, could that have to do with some of the blanket generalizations you put in your posts, you also pass along to your wife? I will tell you that if Mr. W said to me, the things that you say in your posts about FWW's, our recovery would be so stalled and stagnant...Recovery is something that must be worked in tandem-it's not a you first deal...I fear that if you don't have faith that your wife is an individual and not just a statistic, and that if you don't have faith that things can change, then you won't be able to trust if and when things actually do change...

Anyway, thank you for reading, yet another epic post...Perhaps we both can learn something from each of our unique perspectives...I appreciate your time and consideration...If I'm not mistaken, your wife posts here as well, right? I would certainly welcome her input here too...

I hope that you have a nice holiday weekend...

Mrs. W

A long paragraph to demonstrate you are defensive about what I said regarding WWs that fall of the bandwagon.


Mrs. W I believe you failed to see that some of my remarks were made tongue in cheek. However, I must explain to you that I use the term delusion in a non-pathological manner. I see it as a useful mechanism to cope when things are not going well. Your post shows you use this mechanism rather well and that is completely NORMAL.


There is no way in purgatory that you can read that from my post. I think you are on your way to build a straw man. At about 16 months past d-day I was near 100% recovered------- until I had a recurrence at the two year anniversary. Right now I am back to 99%. I will let you know when I am 100% recovered. I also admit that the 1% sometimes makes me a little bit sarcastic. However, sarcasm is a foreign concept to you because you failed to detect that in my post.





First you disagree with me—then a few lines down you agree with me. Is this a post fog complication? Ooops—I hope you note that this is a humor from my part.





I agree with you 100%. In fact, I believe recovery is likely when OM is a complete loser that cannot compete with the H in daylight.



As soon as I wrote that I knew you would come back with the “concept of victim status”. No I am not a victim. In fact I never felt that way. However, classmates.com has facilitated a ton of affairs since its inception. In my case classmates.com was the facilitator. It is very much like being in the wrong place at the wrong time due to strange unusual circumstances. Now, you are going to say that my marriage was ripe for an affair. OK, more sarcasm for you. My marriage was 9/10. However, any marriage 9/10 is still fair game for an affair if all the ingredients are there. The calm and peace of a long-term marriage can precipitate an affair.



Well, I am not like your H. I had a good marriage before the A. Therefore, I love busted my wife after the affair and probably do every once in a awhile. In fact when she reads this she will take it as a love buster.

I am farther ahead than you in recovery and I enjoy the marriage to my wife quite a bit. But, do not expect me to be normal again----not so soon.

Mrs. W -

Hi. I don’t think I’ve ever posted to you before, but after reading your protests about not having feelings for FOM, and before reading Stanley’s post, I was also thinking that it seems like you “protest too much.” I hate to say it, but it makes a difference that your H posts and reads here, too. I understand what you’re saying about posting with him in order to be more honest, but at the same time, you also have to be more careful what you post since he reads it.

I’m not posting to make you mad - I’m posting because I think FWW’s who use this board can make an effort to keep each other “in check.” Are you saying you don’t have feelings for FOM, or that you are no longer vulnerable to FOM (the addiction, attention, drama, etc)? There’s a difference. I believe that you believe that you are different from the FWW’s who have slipped recently (there was also an old-timer, very popular FWW poster on the Recovery forum a couple weeks ago who admitted that she was not honest about her feelings for FOM when she posted here regularly a few years ago).

I agree and understand about not having feelings for FOM (except maybe negative ones), but have to insist that is different from believing we are no longer vulnerable (to the addiction, attention, drama, etc). Maybe that’s what you have been saying, though. (Being prolific is o.k., but shorter, more “to the point” posts might be easier to read and understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

My main point is that we become more vulnerable when we believe we are not vulnerable. I do recognize that you have said you are taking precautions now to protect your M (including NC), which is the answer to being vulnerable, after all.

Well, I hope this is received in the spirit with which it is given. I mean no offense at all, and wish you well on your continued recovery journey.

God bless,
Rose

Rose:

If I could post like you do life would be even greater amd more exciting------ahhh!!!!!

Stanley-

LOL. I don't know what to say except, "I try." No guarantees on the "greater and more exciting" life, though.

God bless,
Rose

SIGH...LOL...

Mrs. W

Interesting outside perspective.

A very important, and albeit common, misunderstanding of the fundamental issue in an A.

The A is not about the OP. Its not even truly about the M. Its about the WS's internal issues and inability to deal with those issues in a direct and healthy manner.

Ultimately, OP is only a tool--like a mirror. The WS attraction is to her own image in the eyes of the OP, not to the OP himself.

This being the case, the feelings do change when the internal issues are addressed. And they do become 'indifference' for the OP--can you love an tool?

If those issues are not addressed, of course, the WS (FWS) will maintain a "weakness" to the OP and illusions OP represents.

My guess, without knowing Suzet's situation is that she has not yet addressed inside of her--what drives her to seek OM attention.

Ahuman - you are BANG on...for example - even in my hate, my need for a long to wonder and hope the OM still thought kindly of me - had NOTHING to do with my desire to rekindle things - he disgusted me...it had to do with my own internal need of people liking me no matter what? Make sense?

As I solved that conflict within me...that need has gone away and finally has really become indifference...

It's why - even 19 months later - aspects are changing as I go...and none of it is about the OM - it didn't matter who he was...it's about what was happening in me...19 months later and I STILL find things to work on...

I have the same guess as Ahuman - that in the recent cases on here with contact, it was not a weakness to the OM, it was a weakness to never address what was happening inside.

That being said - I will STILL never chance contact with my OM - ever...as I dont want to TEST my changes...I just want to keep changing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A BIG SINCERE THANK YOU TO AHUMAN AND DORRY FOR UNDERSTANDING EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT!!! PHEW!!!

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is the quote from which this entire conversation is born. The "ALWAYS" part, we believed needed analysis and discussion. Mrs. W and I have attempted to figure out this blanket statement and attempted to test it for accuracy. We hope/hoped everyone including Stanley and ourselves could maybe learn something from the discussion.

Mrs. W and I (until now, behind the scenes) were putting ourselves out there a bit to explore this issue. My wife has gone to such great lengths with her words for the express purpose of attempting to break through the tendency herein to scrutinize FWW's posts about OM and the "affair" for fogginess. That is a nearly impossible tap dance. To much, your obsessed, to little and serious implications are drawn. WE get that. Suffice it to say, she/we have attempted to close off all avenues of skepticism her/our way in order to focus and delve deeper into the perceived issues we see in the stated generalization. Didn’t work…lol…so I, the BS am trying again. Crash and burn perhaps, but I’ll try.

I, for one (and I guess the only one that matters) have faith and extreme confidence that Mrs. W has NO real, imaginary, delusional or other feelings for the OM in our sitch; however, based upon MB, Dr. Harley, the recent downfall of others herein who may or may not have believed the same things about their OM, do acknowledge the possibility of an addictive quality about affairs that puts her/us at risk with ANY contact with OM in particular, let alone allowing any other man to meet her emotional needs of admiration and conversation beside ME.

Does acknowledging that risk regarding OM, in and of itself, necessarily mean she retains some sort of feelings or loyalty for the OM? I very much don't think so but am open to discuss it.

Isn't it a common concept around here that affairs are NOT really about LOVE and LOYALTY...they are about the addiction and personal weaknesses (which we all are susceptible to). Your posts both seemingly acknowledge this but yet, Stanley still years into recovery continues to throw out the blanket statement above about "loyalty". To the point of even reading into my wife’s posts which clearly upon careful read state otherwise. Discussing OM openly and honestly does not necessarily equate feelings.

Stanley, this is not an attack on you. Though you say it’s impossible, we BOTH glean pain in your posts...that pain being a lack of faith in your FORMER, REPENTENT wayward wife which we infer when you projected your lack of faith onto ALL FWW's herein. We apologize again if our inference misses the mark.

Finally, by what yardstick do you measure that you are further ahead in recovery than I/us? Is there a yardstick or other measuring device out there I don't know about. I'd love to bring it to the marketplace and make a killing. lol. Anyway, notice my signature line below, it says "Recovered". In fact, I've personally felt recovered for a long time. We are still processing some stuff TOGETHER...but only in the effort to protect our marriage, deal with issues pre-affair, deal with my wife’s medical condition (which we don’t discuss herein but it's NOT mental, lol), and to build/sustain/deepen a Harley/MB, more intimate, and "affair-proof" marriage. I/we couldn't give a crap about OM, we were only discussing him herein to maybe assist you and aid the discussion.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Mrs. W IS different than both KIWI and SUZET* to me. she's not better than them and ironically we are both really grateful to them for the recent lessons we have learned from their fall(s) from grace; however, I have faith, trust and conviction that she differs from them in the fact that SHE is NOT going to ever reignite or resume her affair with OM. It's not a blind faith/trust, Mrs. W AND I have internalized the risks, made the choices necessary to completely and fully adopt TO THE LETTER the narrow path prescribed by Dr. Harley. We also have TOGETHER established many mutual "accountability" friends herein. WE ARE going to "follow the MB path" of NO CONTACT (as well as maintianing a romantic-loving relationship) to protect US despite my/our trusted faith and confidence that OM is COMPLETELY irrelevant to both of us. Harley says avoid the source of the addiction so despite my "feeling" that we could go to her high school reunion and see OM, for example, without risk, we will instead not go and adhere to the professional herein.

p.p.s. - This is hard stuff...putting this out there!!! I hope SOMEBODY gets something out of it.

The reflection in the mirror theory is attractive, but I am less delusional than the average Joe. We tend to forget our inate drive to spread the seed----and that is more than just a mirror.

Eventually the OM becomes nothing----I agree. But, prior romantic relationships also become nothing. That is life!

More later!

Rose, did you read her post? She said exactly what you just suggested. She understands her own vulnerabilities to the OM and stated such. That is what differentiates her from the WS' on this forum who had recent "slips," if you will. She knows full well that she can fall back into that trap again if she resumes any kind of contact and has taken steps to make sure contact is not resumed.

Read her post:


Sure, she could be in denial, but I dont' think so. Her posts are honest and sincere and she is the only one in a position to know how she really feels. I find her explanation very convincing, because it lines right up with my feeling about alcohol.

As a recovering alcoholic with 21 years of sobriety, I have nothing but feelings of revulsion for alcohol. I feel revolted when I go into a bar and smell the booze. To drink again is about as appealing to me as committing myself to a Nazi concentration camp after I have been liberated by the allies.

However, I absolutely know that I could LOVE booze again REAL DAMN QUICK if I just had one little drink. I know that is all it would take. I absolutely respect the power of alcohol and simply don't ever place myself at its mercy. That fantasy could easily come back if I allowed it. However, as long as I stay away from it, I can stay in a frame of mind that is realistic and sane.

This is exactly what MrsW has said, and this is why I can relate to her perspective. I don't see anything here that makes my bullcrap moniter go off.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> *snicker* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Love my equally wordy husband "herein" and "hereout" too!!!-LAWYERS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...YOU ROCK "Sugar Britches"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Stanley,

When I say your forum name to myself, all I can picture is that kid in the cartoon "Stanley." He's really short with a big head!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Now THAT'S sarcastic humor!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, here's my .02 on this subject (oh, by the way, I'm a FWW). IMO, Mrs. W is simply trying to state that all FWW's are different, that we can't be judged according to the behavior of other FWW's who have lapsed back into the world of fantasy and delusions. But why leave it only to FWW's? Aren't we ALL different? Don't we all agree some people are more suseptible to A's than others? Don't we all agree that A's suck? I once heard a quote (no idea who it was from) that I had a hard time accepting, until I had an A. "There is no realilty, only perceptions." The longer I live, the more I believe this.

Mrs. W is a great person. I could be way off, but I believe she wants you to accept her for who she is, a human being committed to the recovery of her M. Why she finds it important for you to see this, I can't say. I do know, it personally helps me to type out things on this forum sometimes, just so I can read them back to myself, to assure myself I am on the right path. Perhaps Mrs. W is doing just that with her oh-so-lengthy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> posts on this thread. If she has to say it over and over again in order to believe she has no feelings for OM, then so be it, especially if the alternative is for her to begin having feelings of attraction toward the OM once again. Know what I mean?

I read somewhere in Dr. Harley's materials, that a FWS will always hold some fond memories of the OP if it was an EA. Personally, I believe this. I had a hard time admitting I believed this because I thought it sounded like fog-talk. Then I took a step back, and realized how natural it is to have feelings for someone you truely found attractive at one time. Albeit a fantasy, you still gave a part of your heart to someone. IMO, it's like what you might feel for the boy or girl you first kissed. You hold a special place in your heart for that tender moment because you allowed yourself to be just a little bit vulnerable, and it felt good. This being said, let me make it perfectly clear that I DO NOT condone a FWS sitting around daydreaming about the OP!! What I am talking about is a memory, something we can reflect on, and learn from. When I have a fond memory of the OP, or something fun we did together, I grab my H and dosie-doe!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Why? Because NOW is what's important, and NOW I want to make fond memories with my H.

See, I've written all of this, and even if no one gives a crap about it, I feel better for writing it. I am going home to my H now, to meet his #2 EN!! Just never you mind what THAT might be!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

KJ

10-4.

Stan-ley: This issue does, however, seemed to have struck a chord with you. Why?

Thank you Miss Kari Jean...You are actually a smarty!!! What a trickster you are!!! LOL!

But you are right, we are all different...

See, because if I ever do have a flashback memory of OM, it is with a sharp pang of realization, regret and remorse about what I put at such great risk..All that is so very dear and precious to me...I now view things from a marital and family perspective, and not just from a me perspective...OM was a tool that I used to make me feel better about me-drawing from the external-not drawing from the internal...So I don't have fond memories of that, I sincerely don't...And really, I suppose it doesn't matter that anyone but Mr. W and myself know this with certainty, because, yes, we are all very different...Clearly I was wrong to think that my perspective could be helpful to anyone else where that is concerned, because it is just my perspective/perception after all...

Mrs. W

To use the lingo of one of my MB faves around here...

I LOVES ME SOME MELODY LANE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thank You So Much...

Mrs. W

I was reading through here and felt I had something to say... then I got to the last post and realized that Mel already said it... but I'll say some of it anyways...

Mr. and Mrs. W have chosen not to go to the reunion because they are aware of and respect the dangers of the addiction. I don't believe Mrs. W feels compelled, but knows and respects how people can fall.

Feelings for OM... it sounds like a huge "NO". Vulnerable to human failings again??? Mrs. W doesn't want to risk what she has to find out.

I have nothing but respect for both of you, Mr. and Mrs. W. A long and prosperous M, I'm sure.

An interesting point, though, from Rose about the question of honesty by posters when both are posting. I don't believe it is an issue with the W's, but something to be aware of.

Mrs. W... I'm just thankful that your H was helping me along... Your insight is excellent, and your charming personality comes through clearly... but I don't think I would have had the patience to read through all your posts if it were you helping. I'd be long divorced by now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> That said... always a pleasure to hear from you.

Shaden

No, but this statement is wrong. Your perspective is helpful...if we have the stamina to read it....LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I think about moments in the A--which is not very often considering how much recovery absorbs the recovering mind--I feel sad for wasting that time. Life affords so little as it is.

KariJean...we have a 6 year old...thus, I think the exact same thing everytime I see Stanley herein as well. In fact, thanks to you I can't stop whistling the introduction to the show... "Welcome to Stanley's World" (which I think is performed by the group Baha-men?).

Mr. W

ROTFLMAO

Very good post Shaden, I see your working on that Canadian politeness issue quite, er, nicely. lol

Catch you on the flip-flop.

Go Red Wings.

W

Threadjack: Mr. W, I am guessing that you are a lawyer. Am I right?

Ummm, yeah, WHY? Do only lawyers whistle???

W

It was a dead give away when you honed in on the one term that motivated the response posts.

This is different.

I have some past relationships I am indifferent to..and others I cherish - like my first boyfriend...and sometimes I do wonder how his life turned out - I NEVER wonder if things could work for us - we were young puppy love - haha - the mistakes you make back then!

I had other relationships that were during parts of my life where I was NOT well (my self destructive coping patterns I discovered recently) And THOSE love relationships were toxic...I do not ever think of them anymore, unless an occasion like this reminds me of them.

I never had a desire to marry or spend my life with anyone of these people, which makes my current love affair with my husband so unique, special and cherished.

MY affair with my ex-OM fits into the toxic part of my life...it was not a love affair that i learned from, or was part of life...it was a toxic relationship based on where I was in MY life at that time.

If I didn't fix my cycle of TOXIC coping cycles...i might be bound to find another OM one day along the road...wouldn't matter about who the OM is...just something to cope...

Why I believe like ahuman said...it's fixing inside what's most important...and then because we are all human - I am no better than Kiwi or suzet...protecting myself incase my changes AREN"T failproof..

I dont wonder how OM is doing...I dont wonder how my toxic relationship partners are doing from my past...

OM no longer pops up into mind (both fondly NOR hatefully ...I can say that now 19 months later...in fact...the only time he is even remembered is when I am on MB using my experiences to perhaps help someone else...

Perhaps that is a danger to me?

Dorry,

I am indifferent toward Ishmeal...he's not a real person anyway. He is just a character in a novel...so I can freely discuss the book "The Old Man and Sea" without hesitation or fear of having feelings for Ishmeal.

Same with the OP's...they are all merely characters in all of our lives. They do not represent anything more than a fictional character or a real character that was killed off in the middle of the story. As you steer your way through life you can go back an re-read it or discuss it, alas, it was only a few pages ago, but it doesn't mean you care (edited to add:or risk caring cause I KNOW YOU DON'T) about him/her...it's just your history. You're HERE today, in real life.

One step forward, nothing more, nothing less.

Mr. W

p.s. - Thanks for the love Mrs. W, right back at ya!

Lets not forget that Mrs W is writing for the speedy recovery of Mr. H. I believe some people write in the forum what others want to hear.



Ahuman; this is what KariJean said about that:



Falling in love within an affair is no different than falling in love while not having an affair. However, the love feelings are stronger within an affair because the obsessive component is much higher. That is why some folks in affairs have such a hard time breaking away from OP without a d-day. That is why they try 100 times and fail each time.

No - the love feelings aren'T STRONGER...the addiction is STRONGER. Very important to seperate the two...

let me add to that.

HOW exOM made me feel was why I failed over and over...not how I FELT about exOM...And I do believe that is the case for MANY MANY FWW...

Ahuman...You sneaky thing you...Mr. W's "honing skills" are AWESOME, but I gave away his "attorneyhood" in my earlier post...Well, that and his love for the word "herein"...LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you that my above statement about my perspective not being helpful is wrong...I should have said, it appears to be unhelpful to Stanley...

And Shaden, you Canadian Dawg you!!! My posts are not normally so ridiculously long...HONEST...Within this arena, a FWS(or at least this one) feels it necessary when describing their own situation to be overly explanatory so that nothing is misconstrued...Alas, then the length gets misconstrued...It's a real "balls to the wall" vantage point from which to post I can assure you...I really appreciate your kind words about us...U be cool too, my friend!

Happy Early Canada Day to you and Dorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This isn't true. But I think I understand the point you are trying to make. The 'feelings of romantic love' are perceived (biologically as a reward system in the brain) the same.

That said, not even that is the same. I never experienced the internal guilt and self-destruction when falling in love with my H, as I did in my A, so the neurological reward was not the same.

Apparently, coke addicts experience stimulation in the dopamine pathways--similar to those in love. Are they in love with cocaine?

All love relationships start with the way the other person makes us feel.

All friendships start with the way the other person makes us feel.

Which is why we pursue relationships and take them further. If a friend always makes you feel worse after talking to them you tend to let the friendship go cold. If a friend is constantly negative towards you, you let the friendship go cold.

Dorry, I posted that I only thought of the OM when I was on MB and it was the sincere truth. I was so relieved that it WAS the sincere truth. Anyone, like JL or others who posted back to me when I first came her, will attest to the struggle to get that point.

Believe me, my boundaries are firmly in place now. They will always need to be there no matter how indifferent I think I am to the OM.

All I want to concentrate on now is making my H "wildly" happy, not just happy. Oh, you'll have all missed the post (because I deleted it) where I said to him I'd told the board that he was wildly happy and he said "I'm happy, I'm not wildly happy."

Folks,

I read the first page of this rather long and interesting thread. It struck me that there is a piece of the logic missing from the "grand" statements being made about a WS.

If you consider that contact with OM/OW is to be avoided because there will always be an attraction, then isn't the converse always true as well. Contact with BS will always lead to attraction and those loving feelings will come back right? Now given that BS usually occupies a much larger portion of the WS life and has loved them longer and probably even had children with them, the OP would NOT be a threat right?

So if you read this carefully, you will see a bit of a contradiction here. IF ALWAYS is true for OP, then it must be also true for the BS and by definition the BS would always win. This strongly suggests that the ALWAYS is not really valid. It also suggests that Dr. Harley's encouragement to avoid OP is a precaution based in the uncertainties of life.

You see if the WS's marriage is strong, EN's being met, communications open and strong, OP has little chance. If however contact with OP occurs when the marriage is in a low spot, or there are other issues in the marriage, short term or long term, then contact with OP could be disasterous.

Dr. Harley cannot predict the future, neither can any of us SOOOO the prudent thing is to avoid contact. However, the encouragement to avoid contact does NOT mean that the WS always and will always feel love for the OP. Hence it seems to me that Mrs W is not blowing smoke or protesting too much. However, that does not obviate the potential that some day in the future their marriage might not be in a high point and temptation would rear its ugly head. For that matter that also means Mr. W is very likely vulnerable as well.

So Dr. S as much as I agree with alot of what you say, I do think Mrs. W has a point. She could very very easily be completely over OM and feel little or nothing for him. The issue is the future when things may be different.

I think in the case of Suzet and Jen, the communications was NOT where it should or needed to be, and clearly issues within their marriage lingered. Yet, also consider that both came here and opened up about it and via one method or another their H's have been informed and both couples are working on their marriage. So was contact preordained or the death of the marriages? Who knows but hopefully not.

Stanley you and Myrta are an example where communications have improved alot, although Myrta is still pretty defensive. I doubt she loves OM, I do agree with the posters that pointed out the wording in the emails was to get their fix of emotional high and excitement, not because they felt that way.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless you all,

JL

I believe you KiwiJ...and it's why I will never test my changes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think it;s also why MrsW cancelled her high school reunion. We made some big changes...we fixed alot of whats in us...but what if I was in your shoes? I KNOW I would run..I know I wouldn't give in...but how do i REALLY know? I am not willing to test it out. It has nothing to do with how I feel about OM, it's more on how I KNOW he can make me feel...

JL, honestly, I've said it before and I'll say it again, give up the science stuff and become an MC.

You ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, but they (the healthy ones) are not motivated by the way that person makes you feel about YOU...

My point was that if the relationship makes you feel so good that you would lie and hurt those people you once loved, its not about the relationship. Its about personal issues. Unbalanced personal needs not being addressed directly.

Exactamundo! This was what I was trying to say, but you said it better, JL. Like I always say about the alcoholic hanging out in bars, someday the inevitable weak moment arrives, and he is back to drinking.

It is the same with adultery, I believe. They may have all the resolve in the world, but someday, some time, they will have a weak moment, and if the opportunity is right there, they just may take it... Better to just stay away from the bar in the first place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree with NC. 100% But I keep pounding on the same issue because an A is not about the OP! So removing the OP is not removing the Bar completely.

Its about the FWS method of dealing with unhappiness in a relationship / personal insatisfaction from unbalanced need for external approval. Unless this is addressed the FWS is still at risk.

Ahuman, I certainly agree that if the relationship makes you break your moral code, it is toxic and it is about personal issues. But I do think that healthy relationships, at the start anyway, are about how the person makes you feel about you but also about how you make them feel about them. Am I making sense? Probably not.

You mentioned the guilt and unhappiness you felt during the A. I have never been more miserable in my life than during the A, for those reasons. A lot of how I felt then has been dulled by time (it was late 2002 that it all ended) but thank you for reminding me (no sarcasm intended AT ALL). I have a feeling that is how I let the recent situation develop, I'd forgotten how toxic it all was.

Anyway, I'm feeling excited and pleased about FINALLY learning how to deal with my issues (selfishness and immaturity are the first two to spring to mind) and making Rob happy. We have free counselling at the university and my Dr recommended it when I saw her yesterday. She actually repeated EVERYTHING that everyone has said here. I said "that's what everyone has been saying" then I blushed and said "er, people on the message board I go on."

Then she's been incredible successful at faking me out, darn it, I'm recovered already, I'm such a dolt!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are correct in a way, WE actually worked on this project TOGETHER to see if we could get YOU to hear what we thought just maybe YOU needed to hear. We were not sure whether we were right about the concept, right about you needing it/wanting it or whether WE were missing something we needed to process so WE thought it presented us the perfect opportunity to pose the question...hence the discussion.

We also hoped to bust up a little of the "wayward spouse under the microscope" type scrutiny around here a bit. With recent events it's seems a little worse. Waywards CAN or CAN TRY to make valid, honest, helpful points around here too. A repentent and forgiven former wayward spouse is no different than you and I, unless, of course, they are truly foggy (and really ANYONE can be foggy-statistically Dr. Harley says BS's are more likely to have the next affair anyway, NOT ME, I married my trophy wife the first time..she DOES like to hear that. lol).

Mr. Wondering

Or the supermarket checkout line. I also have a feeling that if contact had been deliberate or by e-mail my guard would have gone up immediately. I was caught on the back foot but THAT IS NO EXCUSE.

Enough about me. That's something I'm learning (huge sighs of relief from everyone).

Dear old 2oak. To misquote his sig line. "NC is NC is NC. What part of that don't you understand."

I agree that part of even healthy relationships are about how someone makes you feel about you (I had a friend that used to laugh at all my jokes, but I thought I was funny....until I realized she just likes to laugh!), but they are not MOTIVATED by that.

I don't know your story, but if you were to retrace a recent contact you may find that the desire was there pre-contact and due to SOMETHING other than OP. Something in you that you were seeking to fill-up.

THAT is the part to be addressed HEAD ON, in order to be released. Its not just about creating a healthy M or NC. Its about figuring out what makes you tick. IMHO.

Cheers.

AGREE! And the same with a drunk. It is much, much more than than just removing the drink. It also involves addressing the underlying living problem.

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]



[color:"red"] yeppers
[/color]

[color:"blue"] Quoting my husband

"Happy people don't have affairs. And affairs don't make people happy." [/color]

[color:"purple"] It's a lose / lose proposition [/color]

and another thing my H said


[color:"blue"]" At first is was exciting. Later, it was sheer terror intermixed with self loathing." [/color]


[color:"red"]Pep [/color]

My DD going to Europe. I was distraught at the idea of her being away in a not very safe world but trying not to show it to her. I wanted her to be looking forward to it as she should be. She and I are very, very close, great friends and I knew I was going to miss her horribly. The day after she left my workmate said "they've gone now I suppose" and I burst into real sobbing tears. As it happens, knowing they are having a wonderful time and being in touch with her most days, I'm fine with it now.

You probably didn't want to know all that. You probably meant me to keep it to myself and work on it privately. Sorry.

I traveled the big bad world starting at age 20 ... I went into war zones ... flew into storms ... rode in jeepneys ... ate whatever the locals ate ...

Europe is for sissies !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I learned how to be strong & to be resourceful & how to be wary too....

she'll be fine

she will have stories to tell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am confused a bit.

Though sorry to hear your daughter has moved away that is not easy.

Are you referencing this because it has put you in a vulnerable emotional state, which in turn impacted NC?

This is a discussion board. If we dont discuss, it doesnt exist.

That was an awesome point!





Sounds like math to me! Obviously I am somewhat sarcastic about this. Who knows maybe some sarcasm is normal 2.15 years post d-day.



Mrs W made good points, however she was sounding too much like KiwiJ and Suzet and I got triggered by her words.



For the record I don’t believe my wife loved OM, however, the brain chemistry was there. To love someone does not mean throwing that person under the bus like a used rag in one instant post d-day. So yes, I know it was not the real stuff.


Furthermore, as per the suggestion of JL I actually trust that my wife will never contact OM on her own ever again. It is hard for me to conceive that she may do that on her won. I guess, I always see the positive side of all people.


Mrs W writes for Mr W and vice versa. Been there done that-----it works!!! But, we will never know if they could have written a couple of different passages without the scrutiny of one another.

Ahuman, I meant that everyone is sick about hearing about me, me, me from me. NC wasn't broken deliberately by either the OM or me but what followed was deliberate and I was in vulnerable emotional state viz. my DD leaving. I hasten to add she's coming back at the end of the year. Good grief, can you imagine the mess I'd be in if she was going for good.

Heck, I'll discuss anything till the cows come home. LOL

Pep, I know that NOW, but it seemed like an awfully big adventure just before she went. When I'll REALLY start to worry is when they have 2 months in the States. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Stanley, I don't believe for a moment that Mr and Mrs W write for each other. I think a united front from them is AWESOME and shows how far in recovery they are.

Ga night all.

Stanley...

Clearly, you post exactly what you think and feel here, regardless of how it will affect your wife...I will tell you this, you are right that I consider Mr. W in my posts, in fact, I consider him in everything I do now-I most certainly wouldn't post something I KNEW would be a lovebuster for him-I would definitely protect him from that, as I should...I try not to lovebust him at home either, but I'm not perfect, so sometimes I do...As I mentioned earlier, I do not process things on this board...I process with Mr. W and then I post about some of those things...to do otherwise does not make sense to me...

See, we are REALLY open with each other now...I mean really-nothing is off limits-our relationship is a safe environment that we both feel comfortable sharing in...I don't understand the motivation that anyone would have to post LIES trying to fool their spouse into believing that they were in love with them-That would cheat both of us, and I very much like the new intimate us...It's a wonderful feeling to know that someone knows everything about you and loves ALL that is you...And, besides, Mr. W would know...There would be a disconnect between us-yeah, we know how to recognize that BIGTIME now...We are much more in tune with each other, so he or I would know if the other were to be posting lies-our relationship would not be what it is...we have a much keener awareness now about us, so we'd know...

Further, Stanley, if I didn't want to be in my marriage, nothing would stop me from leaving...Mr. W's MAIN requirement for being with me, is that I also want to be with him (and that is how I feel too)...This isn't a prison, if he didn't want to be with me, clearly, he had a VERY valid out...He is still here...I am still here...Because it's where we both want to be...Because it's where we both belong...Infer whatever you wish, our happiness doesn't depend on what you believe, however, YOUR happiness DOES very much depend on what you believe...

Best,

Mrs. W

P.S. To be clear, I also don't post on a public forum to blow sunshine up Mr. W's heiney...That would simply be much easier to do here at home if that was my intent...KWIM?

FYI Stanley

I don't write anything on MB I would not wish to read aloud to my husband...

I do that out of respect for him & our relationship

it's part of good marital behavior

Pep

Mrs W:

I detect a subtle contradiction. If the two of you are brutally honest and open with each other past D-day some love busting is natural.

My love busting simply meant I had anger and said what I needed to say about the A. Never used profanity, but said everything I had to say until there was no more.

It turns out my wife's love bank was not empty so I had the luxury to love bust (or should I say express my frustration about the affair*)


Was Mr W angry at you?

*for the purpose of this post love buster means words that express anger about the affair.

Thank you Jen, I really appreciate that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


LOL...Stanley, yes, of course, we consider each other in ALL that we do...But I can assure you that we are both very much free thinkers, which is why conversation for us is AWESOME...Neither one of us scrutinizes the other's posts...AGAIN, WE DON'T POST THINGS UNLESS WE HAVE PROCESSED IT TOGETHER!!! I'm pretty certain that is how we are supposed to do things...Regardless, it's what we do, and we both like it, and YES, it does work wonderfully...

Mrs. W

P.S. Signing out for the evening, as we are going to a PARTY, and I must get ready...YAY!!! G'night All!

Last post for tonight...PROMISE...lol...

Short Version for now Stanley...Mr. W has NO TEMPER WHATSOEVER...He has NEVER, and I mean NEVER, EVER yelled in his entire life...Yeah, that is quite amazing to me too, but it is the absolute God's honest truth...

He was VERY hurt...But no, he did not lovebust me about the affair...He listened to it all...patiently and lovingly...Stanley, I don't know how he did that, I describe it as AMAZING GRACE...and I am awed by him...

Mrs. W

Mrs W, are you sure that Mr W isn't my H. They sound REMARKABLY similar. Rob has never raised his voice in anger to me once. He yelled at our DS once when DS was about 14 and it's gone down in the annals of our family history as "the day Dad lost it".

Rob also did the same as Mr W. Listened patiently but with so much hurt it broke my heart. He has never ONCE thrown back anything in my face but he has also made his disappointment and hurt very clear.

It IS awe inspiring, Mrs W. They are real "men" in the true sense of the word.

And, speaking of united fronts, that was what I always loved about our marriage - it was him and I against the world. That, to a certain extent, has now gone but I'm getting that back if it's the last thing I do.

Well, I would never questioned the manhood of a man that never shows anger. In fact, I also admire that quality. However, lets not forget that the repression of anger at the right moment may also be unhealthy. Some expression of anger at the appropriate time is sometimes needed. However, this may be a moot point. The predominant sensation post d-day is pain and sadness.

However, I am a lot like Bob Pure in me and I will gladly beat the crap of OM if he ever dares to get close to me or my wife. Is that anger?








Mrs. W, my wife and I did MB in real time. Whatever was posted came out independently. Sometimes I was away in a conference and she was home. On other days I was in the loft computer posting away and she was in the kitchen computer. Any dilemma we had in early recovery was posted in real time and solved on the board. Whatever we posted was not POJA. I suspect we had a different approach to this issue.

I apologize again if I appear blunt, but this is how I write 99% of the time.

BTW, I was once accused by many in the recovery board of having too much of a perfect recovery . And then I had flashback to d-day on my two year anniversary. I suspect I was repressing some of my discontent for a long time and I finally exploded. What I am trying to say is that we are different and please understand that your rationalization regarding your local college team is just that--------la la land. The best conference in the country is the ACC.

Stan, it's not that he doesn't get angry. He's human, of course he gets angry. But he doesn't bluster and bully with it.

Please don't take that personally as though I'm saying that's what you do. I'm only saying what he DOESN'T do.

Ahuman,

Thank you for your posts. My H and I just had a discussion tonight at dinner about this issue...and I felt the old fear rise up and I told myself...hey, it hasn't happened, don't go there.

It helped, just not a lot. Your posts did. That's where I can know the more we know about ourselves, the less I have to fear the future and the more I can love my present...not only not going there, but being here.

Thank you,

LA

To stanley


Can you explain this remark? If you have the inclination...

I ask because I am truly curious how Mrs. W saying I have no feelings for the OM sounds like KiwiJ meeting with OM or Suzet* emailing OM.

I am trying to understand something and I think maybe I missed a portion of what Mrs. W wrote... and so my point of reference here is off.

thanks

EDIT: OOPS. I posted on my wife's account. sorry for the confusion...

patriot

The good news about defense mechanisms.

An opportunity for insight.

If we manage to take down the deflecters and push what is triggering us into the light, it appears so much less threatening...and, whew , we can stop carrying those heavy shields and put down our swords...and get-on-with-da-party.

Time is tickin' away. Life is too damn short...


BTW Ms.W. Uh, hum. For the record, I didn't read your give away about Mr. W.'s profession....since I am obligated to skim your posts for keywords!! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (It truly is apparent in his writing.)

If you are a BS in remission (or recovery) the explanation is rather simple and will become apparent right away.

IMHO, the best case scenario for recovery in infidelity is an OP that is vastly inferior to the BS. Within this context the WS immediately makes the right decision (assuming the fog is not too dense). I also understand that what may seem inferior may be the right fit for a WS at that moment in time.

The other ingredient for a good recovery is a WS that is willing to rebuild the marriage and also willing to do NC for life.

If the marriage was in relatively good shape before the A the odds of recovery are even better and there may not be a whole lot that needs fixing in the marriage.

KiwiJ, Suzet, and Mrs. Wondering are among the most pro-active FWWs I have ever seen in MB, I may also include Dorry in this group. They have posted things that make all BHs quite happy and full of hope. Their contributions have been very beneficial to many of us-------no doubt.

Then two of these ladies showed signs of romantic feelings for OM (despite their own assertions as to how OM was a low-life scummy individual). That is not very reassuring for some of us that are deep in to the recovery trail.

Ahuman made a very good remark that perhaps explains how I deal with these things:




At this point I am a little weary of one that beats the chest constantly about how OM is a piece of garbage, ect. My concern is that I am reading words to comform with the forum.

Do not assume I am threatened by my wife’s OM. In fact, shortly after d-day I was ready to get a divorce and wanted OM to take my wife away from me. In this regard I agree with Mrs. Wondering------my wife stays in the marriage because she wants to stay. Like Dorry my wife dumped OM instantly and was rather cruel with the poor man (that was single and willing to marry her). Suzet had a relationship that was not even called an EA (she called it an inappropriate friendship).

The point is simple:

Even those that are in best case scenarios following d-day do not seem to be immune from an FWW making contact again.

Why is that scary?

I have a boundary-------if my wife makes contact again on her own that is all she wrote. Obviously I want my marriage, I love my wife, and I want to grow old with her. There is a lot at stake and therefore I worry.

As JL suggested---------I trust my wife. In reality I lose nothing by trusting her. If there is a rekindling with OM then I have my answer and in reality lost nothing by trusting her again. I don’t want to love a woman if I cannot trust her-----it does not make sense.

Stanley, I agree it is scary. But that is what you signed on for when you decided to stay. You agreed to take that risk.

However, I wouldn't agree that Kiwi and Suzet were in "best case" scenarios at all. A best case scenario would be to take the greatest precautions to NEVER EVER SEE the OP again, meaning leaving one's career or moving away. This is exactly why Harley states:


We can see what happens when that advice is NOT FOLLOWED. It has a predictable outcome. So no, the 2 cases to which you refer were not "best case" scenarios.

They both appeared to be in healthy recoveries and probably WERE, but even that might not be enough when the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity. So it is always best to be committed to removing those opportunities.

Stanley...

I would assert that OP is always vastly inferior to the BS by virtue of the fact that they are an OP in the first place..."Nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" (fill in the blank with other positive adjectives) individuals do not become involved with married people...

I do believe that a BS with high self esteem is a key ingredient for a speedier recovery. Obviously, an affair is a blow to the self esteem of any BS, but recovery would seem a much higher summit to reach to a BS with low self esteem pre affair.



I can understand that. I think that I was off in my presentation, because I tried to get my point across using too much of my personal story...We are all guilty of this here from time to time...I just think that in all recoveries, the OP is really insignificant, thereby making the "loyalty"/"love" theories non issues...Ahuman really hits things square on the head regarding affairs being about the issues of the WS...WS Issues-Now that is a post that even verbose me would not care to undertake... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



I believe very strongly that these ladies did not ever delve into themselves and find the root of the problem, therefore they never worked through their internal issues. I believe they underestimated the power of addiction, or perhaps saw themselves as somehow immune to that power. Personally, I have no need to test the theory, and therefore, will defer to the recommendation of the professional.

To have romantic feelings for the OP would be a failure to recognize the rat in the cage(push button for reward) theory...It is CRITICAL that the FWS recognizes this in themselves...I full well know that I manipulated the OM with my words to get from him the exact responses that I wanted...I flat out lied to him many times just to get those things...That is not a very proud admission from me, but it's true, nonetheless...Mr. W even had recordings of me doing this...which actually has been helpful for his recovery, because he heard, firsthand, just how incredibly outrageous the entire sham was-a big benefit of snooping, IMO...


Seriously, we don't POJA posts. We just don't have problems talking to each other about whatever is on our minds. That's what works best for us...



Ah, yes Stanley, NOW I understand your delusion theory very well...Makes perfect sense! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W

exactly Mel..

Kiwi was practicing MB for awhile...but you see - OM tempted her, and perhaps she had missed something internally to change....and temptation - that contact was too hard to resist...perhaps motivation innocent at first? to fulfill that need of attention, wow - maybe he still pines for me???perhaps that inside was never resolved...Then BAM - too late...drawn in again...

WHY STICKING with MB for life is a nessessity - that could be myrta - not now - but 5 years from now, that could be me??? I'd be stupid to think I am above all this...I was stupid enough to think it BEFORE my affair and look what happened.

It's why I think my changes are a life long process...I dont think I will hit a point where I say - look I am done...I am perfect...cause ya know what - only God is perfect.

So I keep asking God to change and guide me and trust Him to keep me on track...i think he sent me to MB to HELP me do that

Dorry (and others), you are absolutely right. The changes are a life long process. I believed that part of my life was behind me and that we were fully recovered. The year after d-day I had every sense and every boundary on high alert. It's now nearly 4 years on and I now know they have to be like that for life. I'd taken all the precautions, changed my job and changed all my routines and I was so sure there was no chance I'd ever bump into the OM again. We have lived in the same suburb for 30 years and I saw him 2 times, over all that time before the A.

Anyway, that is all beside the point. I made the right decision this time because I HAVE learned a great deal over the past 3 years.

Still more to learn though and Rob and I agree that IC will help.

Ahuman has it completely right. It's not about the A or the OP, it's about the WS.

YUP!

I did the leaving one's career, moving away in a city like I live in wouldn't really do anything.

Stanley,

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant...."


BTW, to those BSs reading this board.

Above, I was speaking about defense mechanisms, which for me are different than A triggers (in the sense of objects, places or smells that jolt a BS back into the A). I make this distinction becasue triggers are not just something one "pushes into the light' and deals with as if it is THEIR issue. I dont pretend to know what it is like to have to deal with this. No disrespect to you BSs, thats all.

Ahuman:

I am surrounded by triggers. They are all over my neighborhood and back in my home town. The triggers are also in almost in every city I visit because some of these sites are part of huge national chains. I certainly need some delusion to survive---------------no doubt.

Today I took the kids to see Superman and low and behold Superman is about to become an OM in the movie (new version where Lois Lane is with someone else and Superman wants her back).

Luckily Lois Lane (now living with another guy after Superman left her years before) resists the charm of OM (Superman).

Nevertheless, the movie shows that Mrs. Lane is pining for Superman big time and decides to stay with her man because he is a so-called good guy.

Last week I went tom see Click and the same old thing of adultery.

My wife and I live 2500 miles away from OM.

Tomorrow my wife will fly by herself to see her mom back home due to sudden illness. OM is just a couple of miles away and frequently visits my mom in law hoping that perhaps on that given week my wife will be visiting.

OM has become a good friend of the family and is adored by all due to his incredible charm and smooth talk. OM successfully cultivated this friendship after d-day------------There was no friendship before d-day. Over the 24 months following d-day OM has methodically become a friend of my wife’s mother. OM charms my wife’s mother and she is crazy about him----------OM tends to visit unexpectedly.

My wife’s mom is an octogenarian and very ill, she does not have a clue why OM is so friendly to her.

I have managed to always take time off from work to accompany my wife when she flies home,. However, this time it is impossible for me to do so.

Maybe that is why I sound somewhat pessimistic.

I agree entirely with this thinking... but yet...



I also understand and agree that thinking and intellectualizing one thought is far different than feeling it. It sounds like you are scared (pessimistic) of what might happen. You say that there is nothing to lose, yet it is a huge concern nonetheless. I have made so many statements over the past year... "I forgive you", "I don't hurt when I think about it anymore", "I trust you"... etc... all of them true at the time when I say it... but as soon as the sich changes slightly or I am in a different frame of mind, these statements don't always ring true.



I realize this is YHO, Stanley, but my thoughts on this are very different. In what way can we measure the person? I agree that the choice to have an A is a vastly inferior choice to someone who does not... but in each person there are qualities that are inferior and superior... in each person's lifetime, there are choices made that are inferior. My W chose to have an A... I made "equally" poor choices (non-affair choices) prior to and after her A which damaged our R and my life. I am now using these and her choices as building blocks to a better life for myself and hopefully for us as a couple.

The OM in our sich... more money, outgoing, better-looking??? (very subjective), drove fancy cars, appeared very confident...and cocky, his kids were nearly 20 (less responsibility)... lots to attract my W. Is he superior or inferior? I'm loyal, giving, loving, musical, romantic, HUMBLE... etc... all great things, but not enough to keep the attraction of my W... but reasons for her to choose to stay with me when faced with the decision of her life.



Mrs. W... I can't remember if your FOM was married... but when referring to an OP, doesn't that also include the WS or FWS? If this is correct, I would give you a lot more credit than you are giving yourself. We all have missing ingredients to perfection. At some point in time, these missing ingredients leave us vulnerable to temptation of one form or another. I agree that an A is a huge betrayal to your spouse, but I would suggest that it is an even larger betrayal to yourself... and that is what falling prey to any form of temptation is... whether it is becoming an alchoholic, drug addict, obesity, pornography, or even "just" losing your temper and spanking your kids in anger. There are superior and inferior choices... but not superior or inferior people. The OM has some things your H doesn't and vice-versa. I tried to be, but realize now, that I will never be all things to my W.
It is learning to be content, satisfied and love what we have.



The act of protecting your M is not just about NC from the OP. In my sich, my W had an EA with a man 6 yrs ago... my protection was to smother her with affection and attention... thinking I could "buy" her love. She had a PA with a different man 5 yrs later. I believe we all agree that an A is primarily due to weaknesses in the FWS which need to be addressed. The OP is just one danger... it is an easier place to fall as the FWS has already had "great" feelings or experiences with the OP and during a time of huge temptation and weakness... those great feelings have a strong pull. But in many cases, there is also the terrible feelings of hurt and pain following the A which may help balance out the tug of temptation during a vulnerable time.

I would suggest that, if areas of weakness in a person are not addressed and a marriage not protected, then the risk of an A with a new person who provides the right EN's for the FWS might be a greater risk, as the memory of the withdrawal and recovery from that particular OP is not attached with the new OP. Even if one never sees the OP again, the changes must become a lifelong process, or the FWS is still vulnerable to a repeat A... with someone new.

Shaden

Shaden:

I guess credentials of OM and BH become moot at some point. What may be perceived as inferior by many may very well be the perfect fit for the WW at that moment in time. The perfect fit is also influenced by the background of the extramarital relationship (more removed from reality) and the type of affair.

A woman that craves conversation and admiration my find the perfect fit in OM if she is not having an exit affair. In other words OM is only covering one or two ENs and the rest are covered by the BH at home. If the same WW is having an exit affair then the overall status of OM and his credentials may play a much bigger role.

Despite different credentials OM always has an advantage in the issue of the NEW versus the OLD. There is an old saying that a man married to the most beautiful woman in the world can get bored with after 5-10 years whereas a NEW much less attractive woman can suddenly become more exciting.

I must rephrase my point regarding best case scenario to recover from an affair. The biggest factor may be whether the WW was having an exit affair or whether she was “eating cake” with no plans to end the marriage. The “cake eaters”-------by definition never plan to leave the marriage and generally get rid of OM on d-day.

One could also say that when the WW wants an exit affair the marriage is in worse condition or that she has found an OM that is a better fit both in the fantasy world as well as in the reality of daylight.

Regarding trust:

No point in not trusting --------------however, this is not the same blind trust of yesterday. That is OK because Harley does not think blind trust is a good idea.

There also comes a time in recovery where fear of infidelity is imperceptible and a recurrence of affair behavior simply becomes a fact that one uses to decide if the marriage is viable at that point. In other words, before the affair there was a wide threshold for divorce. Post affair the threshold becomes very thin.

Regarding Mrs. W’s statement about the OM. If she says OM is the lesser man for having the affair then she must also admit that she had a similar behavior in the relationship. Shortly after d-day I said some nasty things about OM that my wife took personally because she had behaved in the same manner as OM.

Stan-ley,

Regarding a quote from which you quoted me;


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Falling in love within an affair is no different than falling in love while not having an affair. However, the love feelings are stronger within an affair because the obsessive component is much higher.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Although I still stand by my post, I don't agree with your statement here. For one, I don't believe anyone falls in love with "the affair." And I believe falling in love with an OP while married, is WAY different than falling in love with someone when you are single. The difference is this - when you fall in love with an OP while married, it is strictly fantasy. True, it is real at the time, and you expose your heart freely, only to find out that later, it was a very bad dream. When falling in love as a single person, you don't have the fantasy to deal with, you are able (hopefully!) to see things for what they truely are or aren't, you don't put yourself into a constant lie.

My "married-love" analogy goes like this. When you're car shopping, you do a lot of research on the car(s) that interest you the most. You have specific criteria you expect in a vehicle. You want only the best. You consider what gas mileage the vehicle gets. If you have children, or are thinking about having them, you think about things like side air bags and the crash-test rating of the vehicle. You sweat and twist your hands when you look at the price tag. This is an investment that you hope will last a long time (or at least until you get it paid off!). After you get the vehicle of your dreams, you take such excellent care of it, washing it every week, waxing it, cleaning the inside until there isn't a pebble to be found. You are proud of your investment and do what it takes to keep it in tip-top shape.

Now for my "affair-love" analogy. The vehicle you researched so hard on, took such good care of, has somehow fallen apart. Somewhere down the line, you stopped washing it every week, and you can't remember the last time you waxed it. The inside looks like hurricane Katrina just hit. Oil change? Don't you get one every 9,000 miles? Hmmm, can't remember, don't really care to. Then, one day, when you think you'll go insane if you have to look at this piece of crap vehicle one more day, you spot the dream machine. I mean, this baby makes you feel alive, new, super-human, special. This time, you tell yourself, this time it is the real thing. This time you PROMISE to keep the vehicle clean, waxed, oil changed, tires rotated, etc. THIS TIME everything is going to be perfect, forever.

I think we all know what happens to the second vehicle. It too starts showing wear and tear. We begin to neglect it, just like our first love. It isn't any better than the first vehicle, in fact, you wish you'd never traded that first beauty off. It had everything, nice and roomy, comfortable, awesome rims, great gas mileage, side air bags, the works. The second vehicle was always too small, not that comfortable, and has the worst crash-test rating ever!! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU BOUGHT (INTO) THIS PIECE OF CRAP?!!

I could go on, but I need to get things ready for my six-year-old's 7th b-day party. Ya'll take care!!


KJ

Shaden...

FOM was single...But Shaden, it is certainly not lost on me how very emotionally and mentally "inferior" that I was during the time that I made the choice to have the affair. I have become much healthier today. My self esteem is at a much higher level. I am a much better version of myself, and I continue to do the internal inventory for betterment today...Mr. W and I have often speculated that if FOM had been at a healthier place in his life, had been financially successful, etc. that he may never have allowed himself to become an OM at all.

You are right about it being a great betrayal to yourself, and it is one that becomes a part of your life story for always. I hate that. I expected more of myself than that. It certainly is NOT the woman that I aspired to become. But I can't change it, as much as I wish I could, it is mine to own for eternity. I do not brutally punish myself for it daily, that would serve no one. Instead, I am now focused on what I can do to change what in me caused me to get to the place that I did. We now focus on all aspects of us. We don't always get everything perfect, but the difference is now we are concious of our mistakes, and we talk about them. We no longer just allow things to pass that bother us, which would allow resentment to fester, instead we talk and talk and draw closer together in doing that. We make a point to tell the other when we are really happy about something that the other did. We no longer take the little things for granted. We are truly grateful to be a family.

To be honest Shaden, (and NO Stanley, I'm not just saying this for Mr. W!) there truly isn't one single thing that my FOM had that Mr. W does not. Looks-very similar, Education-OM- B.S., Mr. W- B.S., J.D, LL.M., OM-RACIST, Mr. W-ABSOLUTELY NOT a RACIST, OM-terrible sense of humor, Mr. W-HILARIOUS, OM-made less than 40K/yr, Mr. W-FAR above that, OM-Zero Respect for Women, Mr. W-Perhaps respects female opinion more than male...and I could go on and on...I know, what in the H E L L was I thinking? Wow, clearly, I wasn't, but some of why I allowed myself to even get on the slippery slope in the first place, had to do with my own insecurity and a desire to go back to childhood-for me, what better way to do that than with my old hs/college boyfriend? Key, I think, was that FOM was VERY insecure and was a master at stroking egos because he needed his stroked in return-it was not something that he did for me out of love, but something he did to ellicit what he wanted/needed in return. Now for Mr. W to do that for me, it is a very concious decision, and THAT is huge in showing me how much he loves me...it does not come naturally for him, as it is not one of his needs, but he does that FOR me-for us, which speaks volumes to me. Again, we are concious of each other in all aspects of life now...A REALLY BIG DEAL FOR US...




Stanley...

I remember those feelings too. I had them when I would I read what was being said by many BSes here at MB. I knew that I was just as culpable as OM, to be honest, I have always felt more so. After all, I was married and he was single; my betrayal has always seemed greater to me. Perhaps this is pompous, but I am a far much more intelligent person than my FOM so I should have known better, should have adhered to the high standards that I had set for myself, honestly, my saying that I am more intelligent is not bragging, it is just simply a demonstratable fact. That is in no way letting him off the hook, but I am not responsible for his choices, his repentance or anything about him. Again, becoming an infidel was NEVER what I aspired to be. I was one of the people in this world that had said many times that I would NEVER EVER be unfaithful. It is clear that I let many people down, none more so than myself. I did not give due to the power of temptation and my own very human weakness to it.

And in my affair, there were many small choices that I made prior to taking the "big leap" into full blown infidelity that at the time I did not see, which made that big leap seem quite natural-not so big at all. I read that theory elsewhere yesterday, and it is so very true, it is why you hear many WSes say "it just happened", because that is how it feels. Saying something to that effect, fails to recognize all the small choices that you made along the way that allowed you to get in deeper and deeper. Each time that the stakes are raised in an affair, there were choices or a movement of boundaries involved. I think it speaks very much to someone that had problems with setting boundaries all along.

Stanley, I obviously had no idea what was going on in your life, in regards to your wife going to visit her mom and FOM's proximity in that situation. I can most definitely see that as a nerve racking experience. I sincerely hope that your wife is doing everything to make herself even more transparent to you during her trip. I know that you are a strong man that does not need nor want my pity, and that is in no way what I am intending for you to take from my even mentioning it. What you do have is my understanding and prayers that all goes well on that front.


KariJean, my fellow "stoopid" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

On a lighter, sillier note, of course: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well then girl, you need to get yourself a BMW...They don't need an oil change until AFTER 10,000 miles, and they TELL you exactly when it's time...LOL...Works for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Mrs. W:

You are like my wife. She knew OM in HS, however, unlike you she never had any kind of relationship with OM other than that of a distant classmate. The concept that they could be an item in HS was highly improbable---if not impossible.

I don't like to denigrate OM anymore because I gain nothing from doing that, but the description you gave regarding your OM fits quite well.

What we can learn from this is that within an affair some women find men that are there for a very specific purpose. The attraction almost always has to do with the EN of admiration. In this instance the WW does not plan to have children with OM so intellect and looks are moot. In addition, if this is not an exit affair education and ability to provide for the family do not matter at all. If the relationship is mostly long distance physical appearance may not be that much of an issue as the communication is mostly done thru the phone and the Internet.

Mrs. W, I suspect that there are people susceptible to affairs and there are others that will never have an affair despite a bad marriage or unmet ENs. One may think this has to do with morality, but this is not always the case. We all know morally upright people that have affairs and are straight as an arrow in everything else.

I suspect the culprit is low self-esteem. The need to have an external force elevate the esteem is so high that the fog (or rationalization) comes in handy.

Mrs. W--------your posts are getting shorter and more interesting. Is Mr. W editing?

Just teasing you! I bet you are the boss in you household.

Obviously no one gives a 5hit about my vehicle analogy!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do want to add one more thing (God help me, I pray my posts don't start getting as long as Mrs. Dubbya's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

Once you go back to that "first vehicle," your "second vehicle" is nothing to look at, nothing to recall with ANY emotion - not love, not hate, nothing. Afterall, it was just a vehicle. What was cool about it, was the way it made you FEEL. What it did for your self-esteem, your ego. But the "first vehicle" once did the same for you, and you had A LOT more time, energy and loving care invested into your "first vehicle."

Okay, so there's one HUGE flaw in my analogy - vehicles don't last forever, but a marriage can.

As for me, I'm going back to my Mazda, 'cuz I don't need a BMW (or is that BMDubbya?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

Done now.

KJ

I was just about to reply to the analogy post and tell you it was brilliant, but I had to read the rest of the thread first.

Limbo,

Well thank you very much. At least someone out there has half a brain and can see analogy talent when it hits 'em in the face!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, just got done with my son's 7th b-day party, I'm feeling a bit discombobulated, ya know what I mean?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

This is a great thread tho', seriously hope it continues for a while and receives new breath now and again.

Ta!

KJ

KJ:

Sometimes a good post gets few replies because most people agree with the contents.



Mrs. W:

If OM was married----------would you have done it?

I suspect that some wayward spouses may not have an affair with a married OP. I believe the reasoning has to do with not betraying an innocent bystander the BS).

OTOH, betraying one's spouse seems easier because of prior LBs, rewriting of marital history, justification, ect. SOme go as far as to tell themselves---he or she will not care.

What do you think?

I suspect that some wayward spouses may not have an affair with a married OP. I believe the reasoning has to do with not betraying an innocent bystander the BS)

Stanley
Not sure many WS choose their affair partners using a morality filter. Especially judging by the number of calls to expose to OP spouse on these boards.

Morality seems to be temporarily overridden for an affair to take place with someone, married or not.

MrsWondering, I agree with you to some degree and this is why I’ve posted the following on my withdrawal thread:

[color:"blue"]“Remind yourself of things about the OP that were definitely negative. Magnify them if you have to. Remind yourself that your spouse have it over the OP big time in a couple of major ways e.g:

i) Your spouse didn't indulge in an A with a married man/women.

ii) They love you enough to want to stay with you and stand by you, in spite of the pain you caused him/her.

The above two things alone show you the kind of love and integrity from your BS.[/color]

However, keep in mind that even a "nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" married person can “fall in love” or develop “feelings of love” towards another person...and this can happen even if the other person is a “low-life scummy individual” (to use Stanley's words) or someone you wouldn’t choose as a marriage partner if you were single (see my post to Stanley underneath and the extractions from “Road Less Traveled”).

However (as you will see from my post underneath) “falling in love” of developing “feelings of love” towards another person doesn’t give one the right to ACT on such feelings. However, many people do act on such feelings and behave very destructive to themselves and others for various reasons/issues within themselves and not necessarily because they are “bad scummy” individuals. Often such individuals lack “impulse control” or lack of will-power and discipline to control temptation and their own weaknesses. And for this reason many "nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" etc. individuals DO temporally lose their way and become involved with married people... Just as “nice”, “decent’, “successful”, “secure” (or whatever) individuals can lose their way and become alcoholics or addictive to other damaging substances.

Stanley, please keep in mind that – as MelodyLane has already pointed out to you – my case is/was not a “best case scenario”. As long as I still work at the same company and live in the same city than OM, it will never be a “best case scenario” at all. I’m convinced that – should I have not worked at the same place and live in the same city than OM and should OM have not tried to contact me again after DDay (if I was in a situation where OM doesn’t have any contacting details for me like work e-mail and telephone) – I would have not had this continuing weakness towards OM and I would have not failed to have gotten “over” him completely.

Further, you need to take into consideration that – in my specific case - I was still in some sort of a “fog” all these years (I realized it after the recent happenings). Previously I viewed my involvement with OM as only “inappropriate friendship” and “early stage EA” and because of this I believed it was okay all these years to still allow some sporadic and minor contact from OM now and then. Big mistake… Also, in my previous NC letters I’ve failed to state NC as a FINAL and PERMANENT decision (which I did in my 3rd letter). I believe if I had not previously allowed OM to still send me greetings on birthdays and after New Year through e-mail etc., everything wouldn’t have lead up to the massive e-mail exchanges we’ve had recently. So, taking all of the above into consideration, my case was not even close to a “best case scenario”.

Stanley, I have never once on these forums said OM is a “low-life scummy individual” - it’s not my place or right to call or judge him as one – that right belongs to God and God alone. Also, if I view him as one, I also have to view myself as a “low-life scummy individual” which I’m not… Remember, I have equal responsibility as him for the past EA.

Stanley, also keep in mind that the fact that I’ve developed romantic feelings for the OM back then...and the fact that some of those feelings has returned with the recent contact, doesn’t mean that I like OM, admire him as a person or would choose him as a long-term partner if both of us were single (which I don’t).

As I’ve pointed out to pojitos on my thread (and which I want to copy for you here again), the book “Road Less Traveled” by M. Scott Peck was very insightful and especially the following extracts helped to give me perspective regarding this (please pay attention to the parts I've put in bold since this will reflect my own feelings):

[color:"blue"] Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that ‘falling in love’ is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love.

Falling in love is not an act of will. It is not a conscious choice. Not matter how open to or eager for it we may be, the experience may still elude us. Contrarily, the experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable. We are as likely to fall in love with someone with whom we are obviously ill matched as with someone more suitable. Indeed, we may not even like or admire the object of our passion, yet, try as we might, we may not be able to fall in love with a person whom we deeply respect and with whom a deep relationship would be in all ways desirable.

This is not to say that the experience of falling in love is immune to discipline. Psychiatrists, for instance, frequently fall in love with their patients, just as their patients fall in love with them, yet out of duty to the patient and their role they are usually able to abort the collapse of their ego boundaries and give up the person as a romantic object. The struggle and suffering of the discipline involved may be enormous. But discipline and will can only control the experience; they cannot create it. We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself.

Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways.
It is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love.

True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision. Genuine love implies commitment and the exercise of wisdom. When we are concerned for someone’s spiritual growth, we know that a lack of commitment is likely to be harmful and that commitment to that person is probably necessary for us to manifest our concern effectively.

Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised.

The common tendency to confuse love with feelings of love allows people all manner of self-deception. It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one’s feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one’s actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love, it is correct to say, ‘Love is as love does’.[/color]

Here is the thread I posted long ago about "Road Less Traveled" and the full extracts on love.

Back in 2003 I have posted a thread on the most important lessons I’ve learned and my perceptive then and prior to my EA. One of my perceptions before my EA was that:

“if you truly love your spouse, there can never be a place in your heart for someone else. If you develop feelings for someone else, you don’t really love your spouse.”

After my EA I have learned that the above perception was false and that:

“it IS possible to truly love your S and at the same time have feelings for someone else. The theory of the love bank explains this phenomenon very clearly.”

As stated by Scott Peck,

”My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love.”

Thanks for this post Suzet. I did not see it on your thread because I avoid your thread. Nothing personal. It just has too many triggers.

Stanley, I agree with you on a lot of things but I also am seeing tunnel vision in your views lately. I also think you read too much TOW. On the other hand, I think the fact that Mrs. W protests so vehemently is very telling. I am just not sure what it is telling.

I have read TRLT but I don't think many WS's would agree with Scott Peck's definition of true love. I have said it before - the big difference between a WS and a BS is that the WS believes love is a feeling while the BS believes it is an action. While that divergence exists, there will never be recovery.

My wife certainly did. It is the cause of much grief for her, betraying a friend as well as her husband and family.


Wow - do you ever understand my FWW!

FWIW Stanley, according to HNHN, a FWS is always vulnerable to their OP - as the LB balance is positive when an affair has not run it's course - a conclusion I reached by myself before Harley even stated it at the end of the book. I think this point has been neglected in this thread and it is definitely not a popular point of view. If not true, NC would not be essential.

BK <donning his asbestos underwear>

I understand piojitos. If you have questions or need clarification on specific issues, please feel free to ask.

Piojitos, you’re correct that WS's believe love is a feeling and not action…and I think this is the main reason they allow themselves to get involved with the OP in the first place… They reason that the “in love” or “feelings of love” they have developed for the OP give them the right to act on those feelings - they feel entitled and use the “in love feelings” as justification and rationalization for destructive and wrong behavior.

I think what also fuels the "in love feelings" for the OP and make it so obsessive and intense, is the thought of “forbidden fruit” and the temptation of it – Satans oldest tactic in the book. Actually, after I received those candid e-mail from OM, I could literally feel the lure. I think what I’ve actually experienced at the time was a change in brain chemicals - a huge dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin injection (I will explain this later on in this post) and I could also feel the changes and lure in my body. No excuse for what I’ve done – just some insight.

I think "Road Less Travelled" is a MUST read for any person - especially people who've become involved in infidelity and who was/are overwhelmed by "in love feelings" for the OP. This book helped tremendously to clear up my misconceptions about love. And this book and what I’ve learned form it, help me to keep my focus right even though some residual feelings for the OM has returned with the recent e-mail exchanges. I recognize those feelings for what they are and don’t pay attention to it. And this is the main difference between the withdrawal I had back then (when the EA fist ended) and some withdrawal (residual feelings) I still have after the recent happenings.

(Poijitos and others - what I'm going to post now I have posted before so excuse the repeat. I just think it will be beneficial for the purpose of this thread and the additional insight it can give to BS's)

Back then, when I fist developed the “in love feelings” for OM, I felt very confused about my feelings for OM and started questioning my feelings for my H. At the time, I was thinking “I love my H, but is not in love with him”. This was all part of the “fog” and also my own lack of knowledge and understanding about the nature of love and the differences between infatuation; “falling” in love and mature love in a M (as explained by Peck in “Road Less Traveled”). At the time, I didn’t understand how it could be possible to develop such deep “in love” feelings for another man while still loving my own spouse and happily married… I thought it couldn’t be possible to have feelings of love for two men at the same time and therefore I thought there must have been something "missing" or wrong with the way I felt towards my own H. However, I have read and researched a lot on this topic (as well as “Road Less Traveled” at the time) and discovered the following:

People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high – which generates feelings of lust & infatuation towards the person. These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off. When the WS then develop “feelings of love” for someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I have learned that I was indeed “in love” with my dear H, but just in a more mature way.

To explain this better: Dr Phil once said there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love... He said spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. To use his exact words: The partner in a long & committed R became the soft place to fall. This is so true. My H is indeed my soft place to fall. He is the only one who knows ALL about me: he knows all my strengths & weaknesses, he knows the beautiful parts about me and the ugly parts; he knows me on by “down” days and my “good” days, but he still loves me and accepts me just the way I am, with ALL my faults and flaws.

The following is from a website link and very insightful:
Therefore, often the problem with foggy WS/FWS’s is their ideas about love and the true meaning of mature love in a M.

The WS/FWS needs to realize it is not possible to always have & maintain that “high” feelings of “in love” like when you first enter a relationship, especially not in a long term & committed relationship like a M… One or other time in a relationship that feelings wears off and transforms and develops into something more mature and stable.

Here is something about the different "stages" in a new relationship and how brain chemicals play a role in all this:

[color:"blue"]Stage 1: LUST
Lust is driven by the sex hormones testosterone and oestrogen. Testosterone is not confined only to men. It has also been shown to play a major role in the sex drive of women. These hormones as Helen Fisher says "get you out looking for anything".

Stage 2: ATTRACTION
This is the truly love-struck phase. When people fall in love they can think of nothing else. They might even lose their appetite and need less sleep, preferring to spend hours at a time daydreaming about their new lover.

In the attraction stage, a group of neuro-transmitters called 'monoamines' play an important role:

Dopamine - Also activated by cocaine and nicotine

Norepinephrine - Otherwise known as adrenalin. Starts us sweating and gets the heart racing

Serotonin - One of love's most important chemicals and one that may actually send us temporarily insane

Stage 3: ATTACHMENT
This is what takes over after the attraction stage, if a relationship is going to last. People couldn't possibly stay in the attraction stage forever, otherwise they'd never get any work done!

Attachment is a longer lasting commitment and is the bond that keeps couples together when they go on to have children. Important in this stage are two hormones released by the nervous system, which are thought to play a role in social attachments:

Oxytocin - This is released by the hypothalamus gland during child birth and also helps the breast express milk. It helps cement the strong bond between mother and child. It is also released by both sexes during orgasm and it is thought that it promotes bonding when adults are intimate. The theory goes that the more sex a couple has, the deeper their bond becomes

Vasopressin - Another important chemical in the long-term commitment stage. It is an important controller of the kidney and its role in long-term relationships.[/color]

Therefore, one or other time the couple in a long and committed relationship like M will move to the "attachment" stage and then the other feelings will wear off. I don't say feelings of passion, romance etc. in a M will necessarily go away (it will depend on the partners willingness to work on the romantic side of the M and fulfill each others most important EN's and not taking each other for granted), but still, it's unrealistic to expect that feelings to stay the same as during the first stages of the relationship.

Hope this post has helped to give you further insight on this poijitos.
Suzet

Thanks Suzet*. The problem is I'm not the one who really needs the insight.

BK,

The math does make sense. I also think that wamr feelings for the OP are a defense mechanism. It is far easier (IMO) to believe the OP is a great person / lost love / soulmate and that you are giving all that up to be a "moral" person and stay in your marriage than to admit to yourself that the OP was a mistake, the A was a mistake and have to live with self-recrimination. I can't say - just conjecture on my part. Whatever the root cause, I can see why I would believe that most WP's have feelings for OP's.

From the more practical perspective, it does make investing in Plan A / Recovery a seriously troubling undertaking. I have about a year into this. If WW bumps into OM do I go back to square one? Where is the exit door? I have to say that for someone in Plan A, this thread is very disconcerting - from both sides of the fence BTW.

Piojitos, I don’t think there is any FWS who thinks of the OP as a “lost love” or “soul mate” – I certainly don’t. If there is a FWS who thinks that, he/she is probably still in a fog. Even with some residual feelings for OM which have returned recently, I know OM was not, is not and will never be my “soul mate”. Actually the contradictory is true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I don’t believe in the concept of a “star crossed lover” or “one soul mate” for each person anymore (I once did when I was still delusional <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). IMO a person can have more than one "soul mate" - it can be a husband, sibling, parent, grandparent or even friend of the same sex. One can also choose a "soul mate" by marrying the person of your choice IMO.

Suzet:

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

My wife’s OM is long distance (2500 miles). However, OM is from my wife’s hometown (where I also grew up).

Since d-day and the end of the affair (over two years ago) OM has been a stalker. Two days ago my wife had to fly home due to illness in the family (her mom needed a pacemaker). During the last two years OM has methodically infiltrated all family members and is now considered a friend of the family. Before my wife got home OM already knew she was coming and that this time she would be alone.

No one in the family knows that there was an affair. My mother in law thinks OM is the most wonderful man in the world and she adores him. She simply runs out of beautiful adjectives to praise OM (who goes out of his way to be her friend). OTOH, my dad in law smells a rat. He cannot understand why OM wants to be such a good friend of the family and why he is always asking about my wife’s whereabouts.

I think some women are naturally susceptible to “OM talk”. I know for a fact my wife’s mother adores this man because he is charming and very helpful. He offers to take her to the doctor, brings her food, ect. IN other words OM is like a very caring family member to her. This man has an amazing talent for manipulation, there is no doubt.

I am not sure why that is the case, but many women fall for this. Is like these guys have radar for susceptible women and they know exactly what to say. I don’t mention this to say my wife was 100% innocent in the affair, but you get my drift.

I suspect your OM is of the same mold as my wife’s OM. These guys are charmers, are very good at crying on Q, play the manipulation game very well, and know when to make you feel guilty if you ever try to get rid of them.


For the record I don’t think all OMs are scum. For many WWs OM may be the perfect fit at that point in time. Perhaps the H is a better man, but not a good fit.

Stanley,



Ya, I know, I was just "in a mood"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Also,



I personally agree with what you've stated here, but I also suspect not all WS's would agree. Once again, different scenerios for every WS. It was true for me though, I remember being relieved OM wasn't married with children. Somehow lessened the guilt of the A. I did convince myself my H would be hurt at first, but that he would get over it quite easily. I could not have been more wrong. Amazing what a WS can justify during their A. My most unbelievable justification was believing my children would adjust well. God, what a sickness....

KJ

My most unbelievable justification was believing my children would adjust well. God, what a sickness....

*TJ* Squid used to tell me " Kids are resilient" and "OM says divorce was good for his estranged children - toughened them up".

My mouth hangs open even as I recall that. If you knew Squid she is the most "mother hen", investing and protective mother on earth. A sickness indeed....

Stanley, I think you’re 100% spot on. As I’ve said on my thread last week (I don’t know if you’ve read it) - after everything that have happened recently and especially OM’s response on my NC letter - I’m convinced now OM is a predator and was a ‘player’ all along…even during the times he instigated a friendship and have won my trust through his “concern” and “friendship”. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I didn’t want to believe it all these years but I do see it now. I realized this after I've received his stupid "soul mate" response on my NC-letter...that's why I felt so MAD. It’s difficult to digest but on the good side, this realization of mine has helped tremendously to put a huge “damper” on the residual feelings for him which have returned after the recent e-mail exchanges. Actually I feel embarrassed and so stupid now for they way I have responded on his e-mails and the way I was manipulated by his words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I think this has to change and should have changed a long time ago. To allow OM to unsuspectively infiltrate your wife's family is to allow the fox into the henhouse. Exposing your wifes affair to them IS NOT vindictive, it is a consequence of HER affair AND may not have been necessary once the affair was over absent the actions of OM....but it is blantantly apparent it is very important now.

This goes along with all the MB principles we have discussed in this very thread. Despite our best intentions and feelings that our FWW's will not risk contact again with their specific OM, inadvertant contact is still contact and EXTREME measures must be undertaken by both FWW and BH to insure against both purposeful AND inadvertant contact. It's a matter of PROTECTION, not mistrust.

Your wife's family has inadvertantly and unintentionally been feeding your wife's "addiction" to OM by passing along information about his comings and goings. How is she to detach long enough to realize and release any "loyalty" or "feelings" she may retain for the affair and/or OM IF she is continually being updated about him. OM's relevance in her family's lives probably means continued relevance in your wife's life.

I think OM should be exposed and her family can do what they want with the information. They may continue being friendly with him or not, but at the very least, they should be directed NOT to discuss OM with your wife at all. OM can THEN become irrelevant.

Mrs. W's OM lives 750 miles away in her hometown. I would not have any hesitation of my wife visiting her parents because THEY KNOW. They have been 100% supportive of us and would report ANY shinangans directly to me. It was Mrs. W's mom that first tipped me off about the affair in the first place and she has been instrumental in the recovery of our marriage. She's one good egg that WE have been blessed to have in OUR corner.

Give your in-laws the opportunity to do good by you both as well and disassociate themselves from your family's OM...as his intentions are insidious AND YOU KNOW IT. I implore you to expose EVIL.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: If MIL is sick and not telling her so close to death is important to you maybe you can tell your FIL, in confidence, to extricate OM from the entire family. FIL can have a one on one with OM and tell him to scram while retaining the secret from MIL so near the end of her life.

Mr. W:

Your argument is sound.

My wife does not want to tell the family because it would severely damage how she is perceived by her parents and siblings. Her sisters would probably destroy her with gossip and my children would eventually learn of the infidelity. yY children think that my wife is the greatest mom in the planet.


I agree that OM gets vicarious pleasure from becoming a good friend of the family and my wife gets to hear updates when she calls my mother in law. I trust and hope that my wife will not be among the FWWs that have a relapse-------all I can do is hope. I actually trust her, but there is always the chance of a relapse and I have a very firm boundary regarding that issue------------the marriage would end instantly.

However, I am very optimistic that my wife is handling this quite well and she is keeping me informed while she is over there.

BTW, OM has already called my mom in law home and managed to talk to my wife when mom in law passed the phone tom her. My wife had no choice, but talk to OM while her mom stood by her.

I am not worried----this is out of my hands. I have done all I can and if this thing fails then I can at least say I tried. However, I seriously doubt my wife will weaken with OM contact.

Yes, Stanley, I believe this to be true. A big realization for me has been the understanding that happiness is a choice and that you are indeed responsible for your own happiness. I now have a full understanding that you must draw from the inside, and that life can only really change for you if you change YOU, and not your surroundings-you can't escape yourself. Finally, at the age of 36, I get that stuff-a truly big victory for me.

Dr. Harley says that we are ALL susceptible to the temptation of affairs. For this reason, it is important that EVERYONE take the steps necessary to protect themselves-insecure or not. Even though I do think that insecurity plays a significant role in why a WS becomes a WS, I will once again defer to the expert, because truly, I can only speak from my own perspective as a FWS and a layperson.


HE BETTER NOT BE, OR THAT BOY IS IN TROUBLE, and since I'm "THE BOSS", WELL...!!! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I am quite the "firecracker", but he is the head of our household and I defer to his most wise and even tempered judgement. We do, however, joke about my use of the "POJA Stick"-that refers to when I come at POJA with the outcome already decided-when this is pointed out, it always makes me laugh and the POJA once again becomes an actual POJA. Mr. W has become an expert at diffusing this self proclaimed "firecracker"!

But Stanley, the interest comes because NOW I have established context and more importantly RAPPORT with you...Remember, that was my goal from the beginning. Without rapport, I could make a million valid points, but you wouldn't listen at all...makes sense, no?



I will try to make this brief, but YIKES, what a question...Here's the thing Stanley, in many ways, I am no different than you or anyone else for that matter. Right now, if I asked any newlywed if they would have an affair, we all know what their answer would be. Mine would certainly have been NO...Yours would have been no...Your wife's would have been no...Really, the question about what I would have done if he would have been married cannot be answered now.

In my own situation, I don't believe the opportunity would have presented for me to even have had the chance to make that decision. See, that was actually discussed somewhat, because FOM in his hypnotic flowery monologues to me talked about how many times that he thought of contacting me while he was married and said that he knew better, because he would have been unable to resist me...(RIGHT, SURE Mr. Casanova-BIG FAT GAG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)...At our 5 year HS reunion, while he was married, he literally would not even look at me, he said, for the previous stated reason...So, it appears that had he have still been married, he wouldn't have contacted me at all-and he didn't. When his marriage ended, he felt free to contact me as soon as he located my information on classmates.com, nice that he respected my marriage so much, huh? Especially since according to him, he knew that the attraction would be so automatic-sheesh...As much as I would like to say no, clearly moral issues were not a very high priority when I made the choices that I did, so I'm not sure that his marital status would have mattered. My affair was, after all, all about me, so I would have been at the same "jumping off spot", so to speak, no matter what his status...So, the definitive answer, is a firm, "I don't know"...sigh...



BigK, clearly I won't disagree with Dr. Harley's wisdom. I will say that in my case, the affair had run it's course...Of this I feel certain...Funny thing about that, I dated my FOM off and on for 9 years while very young and single, and then sickly and sadly, as an adult while married...the "relationship" ended every single time in much the same way it did this last time...I GET IT FINALLY...IT WAS NOT and IS NOT EVER TO BE-PHEW!!! But that is very telling, isn't it? It really is testament to how crucial it is to follow Dr. Harley's advice about NO CONTACT for life...Where there were ever sparks, sparks can be reignited-healthy or not-whether loyalty or feelings existed or remain(?) are of no significance...I personally will not deviate from Dr. Harley's sage advice-it makes perfect sense to me...NO CONTACT FOR LIFE IS A MUST!!!


BAD VISUAL BigK...You should stay away from spicy foods dude...LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



Ok [/b]Pio[/b], now I nearly ruined my laptop from spewing coffee when I read YOU telling Stanley that he has tunnel vision...Um, hello kettle, this is pot, you're black-LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as my protests go, well, truly the basis for this entire thread was predicated on Stanley's saying this...


Mr. W and I talked about this at great length...It was the ALWAYS that concerned us...The blanket generalization...When we read that, we couldn't help believing that if he felt that way, then surely he must be projecting this on his wife...It sounded to us like something that could really hinder recovery...Further, I have been around the block with my FOM to the point where I know that I don't have loyalty to him at all-obviously, people will infer many things when a FWS says that, I know that...I knew when I posted that I was doing so from behind the 8 ball...Mr. W and I just both know that the word ALWAYS makes Stanley's statement untrue...Further, the word "loyalty"...loyalty implies that a FWS somehow either cares what the OP thinks of them or wants to protect the OP in some way...that is definitely not ALWAYS true...For me to sit and argue my own situation is really pointless here, because we all know that to be an impossible undertaking-say too much, then you are damned, say too little you are damned...That is certainly understandable, I am not complaining, I am the one who put myself in the position of FWS...I damaged my own credibility...I know...But the intent wasn't to prove my story one way or another, but rather to give hope...to perhaps promote healing and prevent stagnant recoveries...


I'm sorry that you feel that way Pio...I'm certain that you can see that was NOT the intent of this thread at all, again, it was just the opposite of that...Really, this thread should give much hope regarding the premise, if you work the program, the program works for you...But it does eventually take two for marital recovery, IMO...



Stanley and Suzet...

This is why I said in an earlier post that it is CRITICAL that a FWS understands and internalizes the rat in a cage(push button for reward) theory...The OMs(rat) manipulate with words (push button) to elicit what they need/want in return.(reward) So terrific if you can see this for what it is...BUT EQUALLY, IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY FOR SUZET, is to see the FWS also as doing the EXACT SAME THING...Seeing this, understanding this, internalizing this shows you just what an affair is-not a real relationship at all, any more than a person has a relationship with cocaine...It is what it is, and a failure to recognize it as such is a huge danger, IMO...When you see it for what it is, all the baloney of the romantic fairytale garbage is completely gone, rendering the affair pretty benign, disarms it immensely, IMO...

KariJean...I loved your car analogy kiddo-I always love your input-I'm really glad you are a part of this community...YOU KNOW THAT "STOOPID"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Happy Birthday to your baby-mine will be 7 in November-where does the time go???

And, OMG, I can't even tell you what idiotic parenting decisions that I made during the affair...I've said here MANY times that a WS is a HORRIBLE and UNFIT parent-of course, a lot of folks don't agree with that, but it was most certainly true in my case...No doubt about it!

Mrs. W

This complete and utter BS by Myrta. To place HER feelings and fear of exposing herself to her family OVER your feelings, her marriage and her family is just horrible. It's NOT a matter of TRUST but a matter of protection. She could have still maintained her secret and NOT taken that phone from her mother. She could have indicated a million reason WHY she doesn't like OM (i.e.- OM disrespected my husband in conversation a few times and my husband has asked me NOT to talk to him or see him and I DIFFER to my husband as he is the most important person in the world to me...end of story). Myrta should have had a plan for such incidental contact which she discussed with you in detail BEFORE she even went home.

This is not MB...Stanley and you know it. So should she too.

In AA when the member falls off the wagon and has even ONE drink they have to begin recovery all over again. Day one. Perhaps because this is a mental addiction and not a physical one it's a little different but Myrta should address with you, today, how she felt about speaking to him, openly and honestly. The Harley addiction theory clearly hypothesizes that the any contact would/could "spark" something, even if it was "inadvertant" or "accidental". Shame on Myrta for taking that phone receiver and making you even "seriously doubt" anything.

Mr. Wondering

Stanley...Here's what I would say to Myrta..."TOUGH TOENAILS!!!"...Myrta is the one who severely damaged her image...Why is her image more important than your marriage and family??? That makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever and is a bunch of fogged out BULL5HIT!!! I have no doubt that Myrta is a good mother while she isn't involved in an affair-just because she made that terrible choice does not mean that she will forever be a bad mother...You do know that Dr. Harley recommends that the children know, right? That's another issue for later...But, seriously, don't you see that it would be far more damaging for your children to lose their family because of the affair resuming than it would be for them to find out that their mother once had an affair(PAST TENSE)?



Um, Stanley, just because she is telling of contact does NOT make the contact any less damaging!


This is just UNREAL...NO WAY STANLEY!!! Your wife did have choices there, yes she did...You know it and I know it...


THIS IS HOGWASH!!! Yes, you are worried, I don't buy that you aren't for one minute! Why are you setting your wife up to fail? Why are you setting your marriage up to fail? You are a smart man, who should very well understand the importance of following the advice of the professional...I recently was told by another MB friend that you are a doctor-I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO FOLLOW THE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE-Dr. Harley has, in essence, written you a prescription for saving your marriage...WHY AREN'T YOU TAKING THE MEDICINE??? Stanley WHY aren't you protecting your wife? This is EXACTLY what Suzet's husband is doing to her by not exposing to OMW...Stanley, "Man Up" and do the right thing for your family!!!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W, I don’t want the affair to be known to anyone. So, in this issue I have been in total agreement with my wife. I have some pride and it would be difficult for me to face her family (or my family) as a betrayed man.

I am also highly protective of the kids even though they tea mostly adults.




I was disappointed that she took the phone from her mom. I suspect that deep inside she wanted to hear OM say once again how much he loves her (and he did many times in the conversation). My wife claims she felt nothing for OM. Mrs. W I can only say so much to my wife. She will react in her own way and she appears to fly by her own radar.

I was also disappointed with several aspects of the conversation that my wife failed to see. For example OM asked her:

OM: Are you happy? Did you find happiness?

My wife replied: I am working on my marriage to get there.

OM: Is your H monitoring you?

Wife: Yes

OM: How does it feel to be watched all the time?

Wife: Is a consequence of the affair. I have to live with it.

OM: I want to see you in person, lets have lunch.

Wife: That is not a good idea.


I have read about scorned lovers and stalkers and what they hear.

“I am working on my marriage to get there.” = I am not happy

“Is a consequence of the affair. I have to live with it.” = The only reason I am not with you is because H watches me like a hawk.

“That is not a good idea.” = hope for OM

This is how scorned lovers interpret the language. My wife should not have come to the phone or at least say a resounding NO with no added excuses.


I discussed these issues with my wife and she states she has to handle OM with white gloves because of the implicit threat to out the affair to her family.

I am certain OM will stalk my wife and try to force a meeting in person. I told my wife to get me on the phone if he tries.











Like I said------I have forgiven her. She is here because she wants to be here. If she does something then she is breaking up the marriage and I will not do anything else. I must tell you that my mindset was to get divorce on d-day. I cannot do any plans (A,B, C or whatever).






I cannot disagree with that point. This week will be critical.

BTW, early on—during recovery I had a dead wish. I almost wanted my wife to resume the affair so I could end the marriage. This was at a time when I was hesitating about staying in the marriage. Maybe I am tempting the devil-------who knows? However, at the same time I know Ilove my wife more than everything in the world.

I will say I was mostly disappointed with the concept that I was watching my wife all the time. This will certainly resonate with OM and give him needed energy to pursue my wife. She could have said: "there is no need for my H to watch me, I will not fail him ever again". However, she did not say these words. I suspect, deep inside most FWWs are afraid to slam the door shut.

Stanley

You have RAGED against kiwiJ and Suzet because of their breaking of NC yet your pathetic pride means your own W breaks contact with OM and will certainly do so again ?

You have berated ME for my 'false pride' yet your OWN foolish pride means your family welcomes OM as a lost son , laughing at you in your face and you take it ?

Stanley I won't take any advice from you again.

Stanley,

As I see it, this thread is done, and so is your M.

I believe your are consciously making choices that will eventually destroy your M. YOU are the one fence-sitting in this sitch.

No exposure + contact with OM = DIVORCE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I feel sorry for ya fella. It was nice getting to know you. Take care.

KJ

OM is utilizing your fear and Myrta's fear against you both. I understand the fear. I really do. To expose, you feel may immasculate you in the eyes of others. However, I propose that YOUR feelings about your own masculinity are paramount. You as a man necessarily define your own masculinity.

Do not threaten Myrta with exposure, just do it. Her conversation crossed the line and despite the consequences to HER and YOU, this OM situation needs to be eradicated once and for all.

All it took KiwiJ was a meeting in the grocery store and BOOM...coffee, drinks and conversation ensued. She "felt" she could handle it but soon found herself being the rat in the cage pushing OM's buttons to get the desired response. He pushed Myrta's buttons and that had to feel good to her. She actually gave him a little back AND left you 2500 miles away to wonder and speculate what was actually said and question her resolve.

You love your wife. Period. Protect her and darn the consequences and humiliation you and she may feel.

Do you also worry that exposing NOW may drive them together??? You shouldn't...turn the lights on and coachroachs scatter.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-If Myrta can't be on the phone with you 24/7 making you feel safe...she should be here addressing her feelings and discussing it with us, her accountibility partners. She should be occupying her time and thoughts with us here instead of allowing her mind to wander off into the FOG. Idle time with OM on the prowl, I propose, would be dangerous for her right now despite how much SHE THINKS she can handle it. Dr. Harley says she CAN'T without taking a risk...Mrs. W and I will always defer to the expert. Why risk it?

As I said, it is out of my hands. My wife knows the consequences.

Stanley,

I think that you have yet to let go of the FACT that your wife's affair had absolutely NOTHING to do with you or any of your shortcomings...Your wife's affair had to do with HER shortcomings...HER ISSUES...Stanley, it is not the betrayal that makes you appear weak here, it is your refusal to stand up to this WRONG and protect what is rightfully yours...YOUR WIFE...YOUR MARRIAGE...Where is your pride in this?


If this is true then it should be of the utmost importance for you to protect their mother from herself and her own weakness...Stanley, if the police called you and told you that your crack addicted wife was lying on the floor of a CRACK HOUSE, would you go get her? That is exactly where she is right now Stanley...Why are you refusing to rescue YOUR WIFE? YOUR CHILDREN'S MOTHER?

Further, Dr. Harley has said that being told of his father's infidelity was perhaps one of the greatest lessons that he learned in life...It was one of the reasons that he was able to protect himself and his wife and marriage in his adult life...Why wouldn't you want to use what has happened in your life to perhaps prevent your children from having to learn the hard way...and you and I both know how VERY HARD that the hard way is...Why wouldn't you use whatever tools that you had to help your children?

Again, as unpleasant as they are, everything that you are talking about here are consequences to your wife's affair...You are now acting as her enabler and putting her, yourself and your marriage up as collateral...Enabling ALWAYS harms...and what a bargain too, because it HARMS many all at once...The price is simply too high...



Your suspicions are correct, IMO...Stanley, the addict got her fix...It will be apparent in her behavior when she returns...I can almost guarantee it...



I don't understand this Stanley...Why can't you set boundaries with your wife? What do you mean you can only say so much to her? Why are you allowing her to bully you in to this? Because Stanley, make no mistake about it, that is EXACTLY what is going on here...Do you realize that for women, love is very much tied to the amount of respect that they have for you? You aren't commanding respect with your "I'll just shut up and take it" attitude...And Stanley, THIS is very much YOUR issue...




Stanley,

YOU WIFE VERY MUCH UNDERSTANDS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON HERE...Like the rat in the cage, she manipulated OM to say exactly what she wanted to hear...OH YES, I PROMISE YOU, SHE KNOWS...VERY WELL!!! And your interpretation is SPOT ON!!!



Stanley, WHY OH WHY are you being a co-conspirator to infidelity by keeping this "DIRTY LITTLE SECRET" for the infidels??? Now you have entered into this with them!!! WHY??? Myrta KNOWS that you feel ashamed of the betrayal, and she is using it to keep you silent, so she can still get her fix, still have her nice little life as a Dr.'s wife with a perfect image-ALL WHILE YOU SUFFER IN SILENCE...And you know what? It is working for her like a champ!!! STOP THIS INSANITY!!! THIS AFFAIR IS HER SHAME, NOT YOURS!!! Do NOT continue to take this...Stand up for YOU!!!


And she may just do that...Two men, fighting over her...ROMANTIC, DRAMATIC, FEEDS THE EGO...And her addiction and perfect life continue...LOOK AT THE COST STANLEY!!! Again, I implore you to "MAN UP" and STOP TAKING THIS NONSENSE!!! Stop allowing yourself to be victimized...martyred...MYRTA-ED!!! This is KILLING ME to watch, how 'bout you???

Mrs. W

Um No, this is NOT true...Email Mr. W at the addy in my signature below...I believe he may have still have the email that I sent OM and the one that he sent OM...I think you will see the door slamming shut in my FOM's face is more than 100% CRYSTAL CLEAR...

You have let yourself believe that this is true for ALL FWW's because that is OBVIOUSLY the case with Myrta, but Stanley, it is NOT true...SHE CAN AND SHOULD SLAM THE DOOR ON THIS CRAP, and IF SHE WON'T, then I'd call that a DEALBREAKER, my friend...

Mrs. W

P.S. I'm serious about emailing Mr. W-You very much need to see that the door can be SLAMMED FIRMLY SHUT on OM!!!

Mrs. W

I believe most FWWs (maybe not you) do not want to hurt the feelings of OM. They want to let them down easy. They actually feel guilt for destroying the BH, but also feel bad for destroying the scorned OM.

I cannot tell why my wife talked to OM. But apparently I was wrong in how the conversation started. Apparently my wife picked the phone up when it rang. Despite the language that my wife used she now tells me she is sure she is slamming the door on OM. However, understand that after nearly two years of NC this OM does not give up.

I DO NOT WANT TO MAKE THE AFFAIR PUBLIC. I cannot put any more emphasis on how I feel about this issue.

I have done a lot of fighting for my wife and will likely do some more, however, I will not tie her down to me. If she feels she wants OM she can always have him-------I will bow out of the race. I do not compete in that kind of race. However, as I have said at nauseum I actually trust my wife even if she needed to medicate her ego. She would have to be completely insane to pull an act like KiwiJ or Suzet. , You guys may say she already did, but I don’t think she has. That does not mean I am disappointed with her choice of words, but as I say she flies with her own radar.

Stanley...

With Mr. W's help, I found those email exchanges between my FOM, Mr. W and I in Feb of this year(Om asking if I had contacted and exposed to his Ex Wife)...I want you to see what it looks like when you are serious about NO CONTACT...In hindsight, I will say that I wish that I had explained even less to FOM, but I do think that it's important that he got the message loud and clear from BOTH of us...We presented a UNITED FRONT to him then, and we will remain a UNITED FRONT because of that...HARD LINE, Stanley, it's the only way...

I wanted you to see that "slamming the door" can and should be done...here's an example of what it looks like, IMO...

Stanley,

OK...Absent the MB advised exposure...

What's the plan. How does she intend to go the EXTREME measures to insure NO CONTACT and make you feel safe and protected?

OM is going to try again. He is going to stop by the house...what is her/your plan to handle that?

OM is going to call again. What is the Plan? Myrta should NOT pick up the receiver again nor take the receiver from her mother.

OM is going to try and discover where they are and bump into them or get a behind the scenes invitation to show up somewhere where Myrta is....How does Myrta intend to handle such??? I say...get on the cell phone with you and excuse herself completely from the situation...walk away, feign illness, whatever...but get the heck out of there.

Despite Myrta's assertions she and you should be discussing this fully...openly and honestly. Not because you FEAR losing her to OM. The cage door is open...of course. But because you are have a intimate-loving relationship with your wife and these "feeling" and issues should be on the table and fully open to discussion. Myrta should NOT be dissmisive of her obligation as your spouse (wayward or otherwise) to make YOU FEEL protected.

I submit that by YOU failing to Protect her with exposure she may not feel that obligated right now to protect you. Your fear has led you thus far and the trend MAY continue. Oops, I couldn't help the contact without drawing attention to myself is not a valid excuse in my opinion.

Good luck, Stanley. You really shouldn't need it as this situation/test should NOT be occuring but I wish you and Myrta continued success nonetheless.

Mr. Wondering

Mrs. W we sent NC letter a long time ago and it was dry and devoid of any explanations. My wife even mentioned how much she loved me.


But, there is more, shortly afterwards OM guessed my wife’s password to her email (never use the make of your car as password-it is easy to guess).


In any event my wife and I wrote each other highly romantic and erotic emails during our reconciliation. OM read them all---he knew my wife was happy staying in the marriage. Nevertheless, he continues to push. I suspect that OM will sooner or later blow the whistle, however I have hopes he will go away after my wife declined his invitation on the phone. He had not been able to speak with her for nearly two years.

Mrs. W, my wife’s OM has classic antisocial personality disorder (according to our PhD psych MC). He is not a reasonable person like your OM-------I fear the worse.

Ok Stanley, but realize that if YOU change nothing, nothing changes...

From the outside it certainly looks as though you are choosing to let someone else (an addict, no less) be in control of YOU out of your own FEAR, SHAME and EMBARRASSMENT...Paralyzing emotions, and ones that have NOTHING to do with anything that you have done...

I am saddened to read that you are allowing this to happen to you, your marriage and family...It honestly looks like "battered wives syndrome" and a thwarting of professional advice to boot...

I wish you well, but I fear the outcome of such inactivity on your part will not be favorable...

Mrs. W

Stanley

A while ago I said

I have felt TOO that while I am in this marriage I will always be a BS - a cuckold: a man too weak to keep his woman from use by other men. A second class citizen. Almost your words exctly.

to which you replied :

Bob, as long as you think this way there is no hope for a happy resolution. Squid had no idea she was cuckolding you. She was so drugged by the affair that she probably felt you were OK with her behavior and that you really didn’t care about her. This was not about you Bob. You were not in the picture at all when they were together. If your name came up it was promptly dismissed as talking about spouses is like a cold shower for the affair folks.

But, the important thing is that all the damage done by Squid was ultimately against Squid and not you Bob.

Your integrity as a man remains pristine. Do you realize that even thieves and murderers seek some integrity in the work they do feel better about themselves? Bob, you have it all. One day you will get over this and you will be a proud man once again. You have not harmed yourself nor have you destroyed your own dignity and honor.

Take your own advice Stanley. Unless you really DO think there is shame in being cuckolded.

I don't know anyone amongst the people who know I was betrayed who mock me or think lightly of me for my cuckold status. Most admire me for my love and strength in the face of it.

Squids older sister has declared her PRIDE and admiration of me. And her contribution was crucial to helping Squid maintain NC.

You do realise that NC is mandatory in part because the FWS typically doesn't have too much control over their response to OM. You're leaving crack in the room with an addict. Its not a straightforward choice not to partake.

Ok Stanley, but did you miss this aside to you in the emails that I posted?

[color:"red"](YES Stanley, FOM, walked away-but I believe that had much to do with exposure to my family)[/color]

That's a BIG KEY...One that your story is missing...

What would you do if you weren't paralyzed by FEAR Stanley?

Mrs. W

And yet you remain tucked tailed and hidden behind your fears while this PSYCHOTIC individual infiltrates your family (albeit your inlaws) and has contact with your adored wife.

As a physician I stongly recommend you pull out your scapel and excise this cancer from your family. (Dr. Harley, Bob Pure, Mrs. W, and most if not all here recommend the same thing). The wounds will heal and I promise the scarring will be minimal. Doing it NOW, I surmise, without Myrta's agreement, which you'll likely NEVER get because SHE, unlike "ALL" FWW's apparently DOES retain some "loyalty" to OM. I feel today is your best opportunity to remove the cancer from your family before it matastisizes(sp?) without appearing vindictive. Sure Myrta will be upset...maybe furious, but your marriage WILL survive. Without exposure it probably will too; but why risk it????????????????

Really WHY?. I just don't get the payoff. Mryta has NOT fully processed this. It is apparent in her admitted "recollection" of the conversation. You've got the medicine to help her get it. Administer it.

Mr. Wondering

ummmmmmmmmmm

this was discussed awhile back

because Myrta & Stanley were "OK" knowing the sleezy predatory OM was making close friendship ties with their daughters

.... right then

I zipped this issue shut in a baggie never to be opened ....

because

Stanley & Myrta have allowed a bad person to associate with their children in order to save face

.... this is not BIG NEWS people .... this is OLD stale dryed up puke <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Is what Pepp is saying true (I have NO reason to doubt Pepp) only asking for emphasis.

OM, the known PYSCHOTIC, has not only infiltrated your in-laws but your daughters as well????

This is straight up conflict avoidance Stanley. I know it because it's me too. Because of the contact today between Myrta and OM you HAVE your motivation (and excuse to diffuse Myrta's hothead) to do your exposure. Besides she's 2500 miles away and can't necessarily take that much out on you for doing it. She'll calm down by the time she gets home and you'll both, I surmise, have RELIEF. When is it ever going to end otherwise???????

Today is the day you take on YOUR ISSUES of fear and conflict avoidance. TODAY.

Courage is in the doing. You have NO REASON to discuss this with Myrta. YOU MATTER...Stanley. This is your cancer too. EXCISE IT.

It's simple (but not easy)....EXPOSE.

Mr. Wondering

If he is truly PYSCHOTIC, what's to stop him from taking the next equally pyschotic step of trying to seduce one of your daughters????

It is predictable stalking behavior...is it not????

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE?

Mr. W

My wife told me that kids liked OM and all would be well. ROTFLMAO. The fog was dense back then. My wife is sick to her stomach when she remembers what she thought and was like back then.

100% agree with Mr W. Why has this not been done Stanley???

Stanley, for me, pride died on d-day. Just the mere fact that my wife wanted to screw another man killed all pride.

Stanley - is your pride more important than your marriage and the security of your children and family?

Hi Suzet*,

Of course there are. My STBXW firmly stated that OM was her soulmate. She also wishes she had met him before she met me. Guess what? I wish she had also.

As for "feelings of love" versus "active love" on part of WW towards OM, of course WW acts on those feelings of love. According to Shirley Glass, the typical WW first falls in love with OM which love makes SF possible.

My STBXW can still find no fault with OM after 4.5 years. I have accepted that they are soulmates.

BTW, I exposed the A for all it was worth. STBXW felt "betrayed" by exposure. This still cracks me up to be honest.

I also agree that most WW will harbor warm feelings for OM for the rest of their lives. The BigK even quoted Harley on this.

And, sorry Mrs. W for the t/j, but I normally agree with my friend Stanley 99% of the time but this has gone too far.

Stanley, of course the SEC is the strongest conference in college football. The ACC? Now really Stanley! They don't even play football in the ACC...

Todd, are you missing the "F" in FWS...that isn't someone who stops having an affair...someone who owns it. Your STBXW doesn't appear to be FWS...

You call her what she is, WW...

Not FWW...

If you could, then would she be STBXW?

LA

Mrs. W:

Your points are well taken, but I detect too much of a histrionic style in your words as well as some hyperbole.

I have to say this once again: I do not want to expose the affair to anyone. My reasons are many:

1. My children would be destroyed.

2. Myrta would rather die than face her children, her family, and my mother.

3. Myrta’s mom is fragile and has been in and out of the hospital. She is the kind of woman that tends to be emotional and in the past this has lead to bouts of pulmonary edema (heart failure).

4. And lastly my pride (whether false or real).

The affair ended on d-day and I had to do nothing to precipitate the end. On d-day I told my wife I was a goner-------the marriage was over. That very same day Myrta dismissed OM like an old rag. OM is not a threat to the marriage. I am 100% certain Myrta would never go back to the OM. She would have to be insane------it is not going to happen.

OM is a threat because he can out Myrta to her parents and rest of the family. There is implicit blackmail in his actions. He has copies of the affair e-mails and in the past has put strange emphasis on the possession of the e-mails.

I trust that Myrta will evade OM during the rest of her stay and we have discussed a plan of action. She will stay with my mom instead of at my mother in law. She informed her family that OM is not a good person and the family is prepared to dismiss OM if he shows up. She basically told them she was friendly with OM because he was an old class mate and that OM apparently misunderstood her friendship.

OM showed up at the house again and Myrta got away. I think OM is getting the message. Perhaps OM was under the illusion that I had Myrta under hermetic 24 hour surveillance and that is why he was unable to communicate with her for nearly two years. Even though my wife was soft in the dismissal of OM there is a possibility OM may have gotten the message. Myrta has kept me informed every step of the way and I trust she will do the right thing. OM is not a threat to the marriage.


Bob:

The only advice I ever gave you that was not well received was that about eliminating resentment for the FWW.

Pep:

About your stinger.

Unfortunately OM met my daughters when my wife flew home for a special occasion. The issue of OM IMing my kids was stopped immediately. This was an effort of OM to get close, but he gave this up as soon as I wrote him an e-mail about this.

Myrta talked to the police and was advised that a RO was difficult because OM is out of state. Nevertheless, the threat of RO regarding my daughters worked. However, the same threat did not work regarding Myrta’s family back home. There is no law in the planet that can prevent OM from outing Myrta.

Stanley,

I haven't posted to you before, but I have been following your thread.


Want to know why this doesn't make any sense to me? Well, it's because the affair WILL become known if/when Myrta finally leaves for the OM...whether he's psycho or not!

Your pride will not keep you warm in your old age, Stanley.

Where is your pride in PROTECTING your family ? Looks to me like it's in the gutter.

I am glad that you put a stop to OM IMing your daughters. Still, if he is psychotic, he may likely find some other way to get to them if he ever gives up on Myrta.

You know, Stanley, a man SHOULD have a little pride, but it should be pride in doing the right thing...not in whether other people perceive him as a cuckhold. A MAN does whatever is necessary to PROTECT his family.

Instead, you are leaving Myrta unprotected and expect HER to do YOUR job of protecting your family from the person that you seem to think she will always be in love with. She is like a hen in the henhouse, and you are leaving the door open for the fox!

The right thing, Stanley, is to make sure this scumbag leaves your family alone!

So, you are hanging onto your pride and fear of other people finding out that your wife had an affair. What are you going to do when the OM finally gets to Myrta...if he hasn't already? How are you going to keep people from finding out that you are getting a divorce because your wife had/is having an affair?

Your wife having an affair does not make you less than a real man, Stanley.

But, I gotta say this: IMO, a REAL man would not care what others thought about him. A REAL man would PROTECT his family, ESPECIALLY from an OM who is psychotic or whatever! He would cut off any access to his wife or family...PERIOD!

Your marriage is still in serious danger, and you REFUSE to lift a finger to protect it because of your ego.

That is so sad.

Lady Clueless:



When I discovered the affair I immediately offered my wife a divorce and I stated I would use some other excuse other than adultery to spare my children of the pain of infidelity. I am a very private person and I do not want this issue to be made public.

The affair is over, so exposure in the context of trying to end an affair is clearly moot.

My wife will never elope with OM. Leaving me for OM is an impossibility. However, if she wanted to leave, I would still keep her affair a secret. I would never expose the affair as a means to get my wife back. If it comes to that I will let her go. I cannot fight for a woman that does not want the marriage. I would simply walk away from such a scenario.

Furthermore, exposing at this time would seem like making my wife pay the price-----punishment. It would look as if though I want to make sure she suffers the consequences. I have no desire to do that just as I never had a desire to have a retaliatory affair.





I sometimes wonder if OM will go postal or whether he will turn out to be like the woman in the movie “Fatal Attraction”. My wife Myrta went to the police, but there is not much we can do because most of what OM has done is to become a friend of the family of my wife. That is not a crime and to put a RO in place we would have to divulge to my wife’s family why we need the RO. I guess this is where we take our chances. If one day OM puts a bullet in my skull in an effort to gain the love of my wife there is not a whole lot I can do.

Don’t get me wrong. One of my favorite fantasies is to kill OM. However, I am a law abiding citizen. I am also certain OM dreams about killing me, no doubt.






My daughters are safe, I am 100% certain of that. However. OM remains obsessed with my wife. I can petition for a RO, but OM is more than 2500 miles away. OM stalking activity is basically becoming a friend of my wife’s family. For example my mother in law already thinks OM is a great man. This guy has already charmed my mom in law.



Not sure what you mean by that? If you are referring to romantic feelings developing in Myrta there is not much I can do about that. I worked very hard for over two years to overcome the affair and I gave it my best shot.

If you think OM will harm my wife then I could be guilty for allowing her to go home by herself---------I agree.


My wife’s family is by definition also my family---------you are correct. However, to do so would require revelation of the affair. MY wife and I POJA that and we will not expose.



Like I said, this is a moot point. My wife is not choosing OM now or ever. I am not worried about that.


Tell that to Bob Pure.



I cannot disagree. I even proposed to my wife that she could tell her family about OM if we could find a way to keep our children out of this. However, Myrta wants secrecy.



I disagree, my marriage is not in danger. OM is not a threat to the marriage (see above). He may go mad one day, but that is one of the byproducts of infidelity and scorned OP.

Hi LA,

Valid point concerning FWW vs. WW.

To answer your question, if WW had become FWW within a reasonable period of time, I would still be home doing everything possible to rebuild my marriage.

Thank you.

I believe you, Todd...and in you.

LA

Stanley,

Okay, for argument's sake, let's say I accept your decision not to expose your W. Over and done with. Now, how can I, and others on this forum, be of assistance to you and your W? What other subject matter could we attempt to help you with? There's been so much discussion about your unwillingness to expose, that I believe we've lost sight of your original needs. Do tell....

KJ

The thread was started by Mrs. W and had nothing to do with the stalking activities of OM. Then, my wife had to fly on an emergency basis to our hometown because her mother was ill. It was then that OM caught my wife by surprise when she answered the phone for her mother (that was in bed and had just left the hospital). Unfortunately contact was made, but not initiated by my wife. I suppose OM knew my wife would fly in once he learned my mom in law was sick in the hospital.

I was mostly venting my frustration because my wife feels she must handle the situation with white gloves. Otherwise OM will spill the beans.

If OM goes postal we are in trouble----I agree.

Stanley,



Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this, but aren't you choosing to handle this thing with white gloves too? What are you going to do once OM spills the beans? I feel so bad for your wife, she must feel threatened by OM 24/7. What a horrible way to live. Is she sure it's better to live this way, rather than live through exposure?

Just some thoughts. Hang tough.

KJ

There has been a methodical infiltration of my wife's family over more than two years. OM has also asked my mom in law for new phone numbers of my wife, but the mother in law was instructed not to give the numbers away. Mom in law is now realizing that OM may be obsessed with my wife, but she thinks this is just an intense old HS friend that has the wrong idea about my wife.

I was also wrong about why Myrta did not give a sharp final “NO, GO TO ******” answer to OM when he caught her on the phone. My wife feels threatened by the possibility of revelation of the affair.

I even considered tracking down OM and putting my fist on his nose, but this would simply mean revelation of the affair. I also pray for OM’s death on a regular basis----I am sure God understands why I do this.


Yes, we live in fear and hopefully this will go away one day.

So all this talk about FWS's ALWAYS having feelings for the OP's is more a projection of YOU still having "feelings" for him.

Stanley's feelings for OM = F E A R (probably lots of anger too, anger at having to FEAR him exposing as well as stalking his in-laws).

OM is getting the desired result. It's working for him more than just disappearing. Render him powerless, somehow.

Mr. Wondering

Stanley

A large difference between you and I: after we had such a similar horrible experience. After all we have been through you live cowering in fear and vain hope. I live victoriously fearing nothing on Gods earth. I became a knight, Stanley, no longer a cringing serf.

Am I a better man than you ? In no way ! You are a phone call away from ALSO fearing nothing and removing every inhibitor to a long and happy recovered marriage. And don't gibve me any cr4p about the prideful hispanic family honour - Squids family is high caste Madrasi indian. Try THAT for a culture of overwhelming pride and snobbery !

You know that the A will be exposed at some point don't you ? Certainly ?

Why would a noble man like you choose to cower in fear at the feet of this scumbag ?

NOBODY important thinks badly of me or Squid who knows about her affair. Some stupid cackling GFs think its exciting gossip, sure, but all the REAL people are in AWE of our marriage now.

Either you expose on your terms or OM does on his. The power the man has in your life is power you give him.

All blessings

One more thing:

This bizarre behavior by OM has a positive byproduct.

My wife Myrta is now 100% certain OM is not a very good person.

If OM had acted with respect and in an honorable manner following d-day my wife would probably see OM in a different light.

In a sense, I am glad OM fulfilled all my predictions regarding stalking behavior. When OM 1st contacted my mother in law Myrta thought he was just being a nice guy that wanted to help an old lady.

Stanley,

Is the former OM aware of your fear of exposure? Do you think he understands how much power he has over you two?

I hope not. Especially if he is an anti-social personality.

If he does know how much you don't want exposure, you can expect him to eventually try to use that as leverage against you. My husband's OW did that. In her case, it was a monetary reward that she wanted. And she got it.

What price do you think he is eventually going to try to extract from you or your wife for his silence?

TruBluz

Mrs W:

I never had fear of losing to OM.

You say you affaired down-----my wife did too; maybe even more. Fear of OM is not a factor. However, I worry about inflicting pain to my children. I worry about seeing my wife pay the price in front of kids.

And lastly I have false pride----------I freely admit that. My view on infidelity was that it had to end in divorce-------nothing less was satisfactory.

Bob:

My pride would never allow me to fight for my marriage if my wife was not willing to fix the marriage. If she had decided to continue the affair after d-day I could not have done a thing-----I would have given up. In fact, past d-day I wanted very badly to end the marriage.

I have a great deal of admiration for those like you and others that courageously saved their marriages even though WW wanted out. It takes a special man to do that.

However, within the framework of rebuilding the marriage I worked very hard. Initially I struggled with the concept of resentment and even preached against the evil of harboring resentment. I thought I had conquered resentment forever and then out of the blue had a recurrence at the two-year anniversary.

I suspect that OM will eventually spill the beans. He does not strike me as a gentleman. The reason he has not done so is that he seems to use this threat as a cover to his actions. OM also knows the implicit blackmail of his actions. However, OM’s behavior has done a masterful job in extinguishing whatever some FWW’s feel for OM for the rest of their lives. Myrta assures me that the contact did absolutely nothing for her. In fact she now feels the terror of stalking. Maybe I was wrong-----maybe some FWWs learn to dislike OM as a person.

We never talk to OM and if we did we would not discuss that issue. I don't want to put ideas in his head. However, I suspect OM may have a clue. But, maybe he does not-----he tends to act as a very foggy character. My MC is certain OM has antisocial personality and I know these folks have no conscience. I don’t think this guy has the capacity to feel remorse.

Stanley
Squid doesn't want out now. There are many reasons why a spouse might want 'out' the primiary one being that it reinforces the self delusion that the affair is a 'love affair' not a self medication of an esteem issue.

After all if they are 'soulmates' they can give up everything for each other. To quit the affair easily is to admit it was wrong, not love, not 'soulmates' and in fact just a sordid , nasty adventure.

This was Squid. She told me only today that she LOVED feeling 'in love' but is sure she never actually loved OM. This backs up what Shirley Glass says about the reaons people have affairs. The 'in love' sensation is VERY convincing and is also addictive. But the 'love' is for how the OP makes them feel, not the OP themselves.

OM is fvcking with your heads. And you are letting him, fearing him. What a waste of the passion you and Myrta have.

Bob, I fully agree with you. The romantic sensation is addicting and the folks involved feel like teenagers. It is a wonderful escape mechanism that all of us would like to enjoy. One could say--------who can blame them! However, not everyone in the planet is capable of developing full-blown fog. And not everybody has such a strong need for validation from external sources.

Myrta’s OM shows that the quality of OP is really a moot point in an affair. I also agree with the concept that it must be very hard to accept that one has fvcked up so badly. Bob, I almost never use the F word, but I had to use it this time.

Stanley,

You made a convincing case that a FWW will always harbor warm and fuzzy love feelings for OM. However, when it comes to Myrta, you seem to dismiss this as a possibility citing the fact that Myrta dropped OM on DD.

Why is Myrta immune from the FWW tendency to remain in love with OM?

Stanley, you seem to be implying that what has come to light here regarding your situation is not pertinent to the thread's original intent...This new information is highly relevant actually, because it explains very clearly why you make such blanket generalizations about FWWs-You believe that all FWWs are like Myrta-UNTRUE...What remains curious, however, is that your advice differs greatly from the actions that you take where you own situation is concerned...I would seriously like to understand that...Is it because you believe that you have "special circumstances" or is it because you are on some kind of kamikaze mission with your marriage? I would like for you to explain why you aren't following Dr. Harley's narrowly defined path yourself.

For the purpose of refocusing, here are the two original quotes(in blue), by you, that were pulled from Suzet's thread, by me. These two quotes were the inspiration for the birth of this thread. Though scarce in words, the quotes speak volumes through their cynical tone and sweeping generalization. For me, much about the author was communicated, despite the brevity...I heard more than you were saying Stanley, and I remember that you scoffed at that notion early in this thread...You may still scoff, but I am telling you with sincerity that had I have not "heard" more than the words you typed, I would not have begun this thread at all...Here are your words and the discussion of them...


Ok Stanley, that is what you said about Suzet...Now take a look at what you've said about your situation...


-OK, in Suzet's situation, you say that you can't POJA the final betrayal of OM, yet you and your wife have done EXACTLY that...To expose Myrta's OM would be the death knell in the affair's coffin...the FINAL BETRAYAL, if you will...I don't get it Stanley...

I know what your arguments will be, here they are...


First, I would argue that no doctor, can make a proper diagnosis without seeing the patient themselves. Further, I would also say that your MC got a very skewed description of this OM from Myrta, and even from yourself. Quite obviously, objectivity would be a problem for both of you. Not to mention that your descriptions of OM to the MC were ones of a man involved in an affair...single or not, your OM was still involved in an extra marital affair and that is the stuff that crazy is made of! So Stanley, I'm not even convinced that your OM has a diagnosable mental disorder.

Even if he does have a mental illness, that is all the better for the two of you actually...BECAUSE THEN, ANY BLACKMAIL EXPOSURE BY HIM COULD EASILY BE EXPLAINED AWAY BASED UPON HIS MENTAL HEALTH...I'm sorry, but that really does seem like a no brainer...It certainly appears that you believe that this OM is holding your marriage hostage, and you are willing to use your marriage as ransom...What evidence do you have of OM's threats of exposure, btw? Let's be sure those are truly threats and not just things that have been fabricated to induce your silence...Where's the smoking gun? IF, OM really has threatened exposure well then, that's truly WONDERFUL, because you've been around MB long enough to KNOW that you NEVER threaten exposure...WHY? Because Forewarned is Forearmed...Your arensal is stocked, all you have to do is let all of his exposure targets know what this nutbag has threatened and how ridiculous his assertations are...Who will the family believe, some random nutbag (friend of the family or not) or a united front presented by you and your wife? Um DUH!!! Now I personally don't believe in keeping the infidelity secret, but I won't argue that with you right now...BUT STANLEY, REMOVE THIS COWARDICE BULLY FROM YOUR MARITAL EQUATION-DISARM HIM-TAKE AWAY HIS POWER!!! Stanley, this guy is a TERRORIST if indeed he is blackmailing you...Think about how the U.S. deals with terrorist/hostage situations...follow their lead...This OM only has power over you if you give it to him...


Ok, again, if OM is really blackmailing you and you need an "out", I explained that for you...However, in the event that your children actually did find out what happened (which they won't because I KNOW you guys aren't gonna tell-whatever)...But if by some remote chance they did find out, Stanley your above statement is VERY HISTRIONIC (lol that YOU would use that term to describe me-takes one to know one, huh?)

Your children would NOT be destroyed upon learning that their mother is a human being that made a very poor choice, but then did the right thing and honored her commitment to their father...because she loved him, because she realized she messed up BIGTIME, because again, she was HUMAN...What your children would learn was how very much their parents loved each other...What they would learn is that marriage is REALLY for better or for worse...What they would learn (I'll bet they already suspect this) is that their parents aren't perfect...There are MANY valuable lessons that your children could and would actually learn from knowing, but if you would rather present them with a false image of a perfect marriage, in a world where they are VERY likely to experience infidelity firsthand, then, of course, that is up to you...


Myrta, of course, should have thought of that when she chose to have an affair. Big girl mistakes come with big girl consequences... I'm not telling you to go expose after the fact, to make her suffer consequences, but OM is apparently pushing the envelope here and in doing so is making exposure necessary for the two of you to follow the very narrow MB recovery path...


Stanley, you remind me of my mom in stating the above...My father has Bipolar Disorder and a very serious heart condition...Over the years, she has refused to have him involuntarily commited for fear that doing so would trigger a heart attack...At what point must you consider the greater good Stanley? Again, you've got your "out" by cutting OM off at the knees by exposing his threatened exposure...He has EMAILS you say...BIG DEAL...Emails are EASILY edited, certainly not out of the range of what a crazy person would do-very believable-ESPECIALLY where an elderly woman is concerned...My own mother is 60, works with a computer everyday, and I promise you that she would completely buy the "doctored email" story...OM is PSYCHOTIC, right? Because of my dad, I've had to deal with the mental health system and the stigma that people place on the mentally ill for years, trust me, people are willing to believe anything about someone labeled as "crazy"-Again, it would be your and Myrta's word against his- YOU PRESENT A UNITED FRONT-...It would easily work and then you would all be free of him...


Again, the "out" I've outlined for you allows you to "hold on" to this sense of pride that you are so concerned about...By the way, exposure or not, that is an issue that you VERY MUCH need to work through...It will hinder your personal recovery which will necessarily hinder your marital recovery...We can discuss that more if you'd like...

Stanley, what would be interesting would be Myrta's willingness towards disarming OM, by exposing his blackmail scheme and outing him as a looney tune...I can't help but believe that OM's mental health has been played to the hilt to you by Myrta, to keep you hushed...I would be very interested to hear her response to that a suggestion...






Stanley, your above quote implies that you understand the concept of NC-I agree with you, NO CONTACT is imperative because of the nature of affairs...Do you also realize that Myrta's recent phone call with OM is CONTACT...You are failing to recognize that apparently...You also aren't taking into consideration the addictive properties of an affair and how breaking NO CONTACT can mean the addiction comes back full force...For a coke addict, is one small "bump" okay? That phone call was a "bump" for Myrta...saying it wasn't doesn't make it less true...

Stanley, I now understand your stance regarding FWWs...You project Myrta's behavior onto ALL FWWs, and the recent events on MB have helped to reinforce those feelings...What those situations, and now YOURS have in common, is their FAILURE TO ADHERE TO NO CONTACT...So, from now on when making blanket generalizations, please extend such only to those who have unwisely chosen NOT to stick to the very narrow MB path, only then will your statements be factual...


Stanley, you make a lot of bold statements about the state of your marriage and how OM is not a threat...None of those statements consider the addiction or NO CONTACT...Make no mistake about it, when there is contact, there is a very real threat to your marriage...

Here are a few of the things that you have said...




Stanley, the logic simply does not follow when you then consider her phone CONTACT with OM...The fact that she took the phone call at all is mind boggling, but the contents (that were even shared) are even further proof that things are NOT what they should be...Again, I believe that your "scorned lover" interpretations were dead on...


Stanley, courage is in the doing...What are you going to do?

Mrs. W

***EDITED to ADD...Stanley, I would certainly hope that your "scorned lover" interpretation understands fully that Myrta wanted OM to make those inferences...You do get that, right?

Stanley,



Atta boy Stanley, way to acknowledge it when you have a change in opinion. I applaud you for this, and hope you sincerely believe this, from here on out. BTW, "dislike" is how I would describe my feelings for my OM, but I know other FWW's who'd use a much stronger word!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think you'd agree, if one dislikes someone, it's pretty tough to feel any positive emotional connection. Agree?!

KJ

Both my adult children were told by my H about the A about 3 days after d-day. I am pleased they know - I think family secrets are destructive and have a way of surfacing, perhaps at a funeral, perhaps by a loose word from someone. I didn't want them to never know what our marriage had been through and survived. They respect their father greatly, and are very happy we survived this.

It was difficult at first, but my ongoing and very close relationship with my kids is one of the joys of my life.

Both our families and friends know everything and have offered nothing but support to both of us.

Todd: It cannot happen even if she still has minimal residual fuzzy feelings. This is one of those cases where the WW was truly in love with the affair and not the OM. If there was a need for a textbook case to explain this concept it would be Myrta.





I am not the only one that believes in the residual lovey dovey theory. Obviously, the expert Dr Harley is a firm believer and hence he advices NC for life.




It has been Kamikaze from day one. Sure, I tried to protect my marriage as much as I could, but it all hinges on Myrta’s willingness to make this work. I told her from day one I would get OM for her if she wants him--------sounds kamikaze but that is probably related to my own foolish pride.





I am sure that I probably stated in the thread that I usually do not favor exposure unless the BS wants to kill the affair with daylight. IMHO, that is a valid excuse for someone that is trying to stop an affair beyond d-day. I would recommend this even though I would never exposed my own. If Myrta had stayed in the affair I would have ended the marriage. This is my false pride speaking------I freely admit that.

In the case of Suzet she stated love feelings for OM and how she was back in withdrawal. IN addition, OM is married and Suzet works with OM. Within this context exposure is justified. If I was Suzet’s H my first reaction would be to end the marriage. After all they are young and there are no children. If the latter is not an option then exposure may be a good alternative because OM is married and because Suzet was in love.

In my case Myrta is not in love with OM and there is no wife on the other side. The exposure would be aimed at Myrta’s family so they can slam the door next time OM knocks. Otherwise, OM is 2500 miles away.

IN a sense if OM exposes then the ball game is over. That would be great, but something within me tells me to keep this private and to avoid the pain to my children and to my own mother who thinks Myrta is the best wife in the world (even though initially she was opposed to my wedding).





Mrs. W I said what Dr Harley says------no more----no less.





There is a difference:

My wife is not in love with OM and there is zero% chance of a recurrence. There is no need to drive another nail in the coffin. IN fact OM drove the last nail with his bizarre behavior. OM is doing a great job is getting Myrta completely disenchanted. In fact, maybe Myrta will be the very 1st FWW in the world to feel nothing for OM, not even 0.0000000000000000001%. Who knows maybe you will be right up there with her. Sarcasm------can you tell?





You may be correct. However, I still say OM is not playing with a full deck.




Myrta already explained to her family that OM may be mental and that he has developed an obsession with her that grew out of a harmless meeting between two people that knew each other in junior high and in HS. BTW, unlike you-------Myrta never had any relationship with OM in her youth.





On d-day my wife asked OM over and over to keep the affair a secret. She told OM she had to shield the children. OM has an idea of how important this is. OM also knows he can show up at Myrta’s home and that we will remain silent about it. This probably gives him some satisfaction-------I will not deny that.




I am sure they would survive. But as of now I am simply choosing the lesser of two evils. Tolerating OM as a nuisance is far better than the discovery. The worst that could happen is that OM outs Myrta. There is no other damage OM can cause to the marriage.





Discovery would be very stressful Mrs. W. SOme of my kids may even encourage me to leave the marriage. My kids see infidelity in the same light I do. My entire family would certainly pressure me to leave my wife. Myrta’s family would be more understanding. Dealing with them would take months as well as the agony and rehashing an affair that is rapidly getting quite old.




Until recently it was the opposite. I carried the torch of OM’s mental illness whereas my wife defended OM’s mental status. For a long time she refused the concept that OM could be a low-life.




Call me Kamikaze again, but if Myrta fails again then I will have my answer and all the work I did was in vain. I will only endure ONE recovery. I do not plan to have many false recoveries-----I won’t. If all it takes is one phone call from OM to demolish everything I have done then I am outa here.





It has mostly been the other way around. I have ascribed Myrta some of the behaviors I have seen on MB.




I agree, but on some instances OM can precipitate contact with the most diligent FWW. As I said-----if all it takes is a phone call then it is not worth it---------I am a goner.

BTW, my wife agrees with me. She told me that I should leave if she has a relapse.



Yes, it is the addiction-------I get it. However, she is trying to appease OM due to reasons stated above. I wanted a HARSH NO, but she handled it differently. I guess she wanted to save face with OM. Most FWWs want that.




Mrs W, there is no doubt about it. I am sure many people like the idea of someone pining for them. At some level Myrta enjoyed listening to OM. However, I am not worried. BTW, I cannot police Myrta’s thoughts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Stanley, the fact that my H and I are young and don’t have any children doesn’t make our M less bonding or less important to us… Apart from my EA, we had been through a lot together in our almost 10 year M (infertility, unemployment, hanging court case, family problems, I was diagnosed and treated for mental disorders - depression, anxiety & OCD - and had to work through sexual and physical abuse issues from my childhood, confronted the abusers etc.). Through all of this H and I have stayed and stood together and supported each other and because of this we are probably closer and share a much stronger bond than most “old married” couples with children… Therefore, don't be deceived by superficial things like “still young” and “no children”...

Stan wrote:



.... and I 100% believe this

Myrta does drama

and drama is available in abundance with this OM hovering over her family

..... this requirement for pot-stirring-is her addiction ... not this particular OM .... who is an insignificant bug in her heart

keeping the drama alive is the issue, IMHO

Pep

Suzet:

I believe divorce should be an option in a failed recovery. Otherwise, the sky is the limit. Maybe some folks do it after 3-4 failed recoveries.

Can you tell me why you are so vulnerable to OM?

Pep:

I sometimes feel folks in recovery can get addicted to the drama. Maybe we are afraid to return to a calm tension free marriage. However, the drama could be much greater with discovery-----so I really don't know.

In any event this OM is showing his true colors. Myrta is now a believer.

and Myrta is showing her true colors as well

I guess I still have some deep settled self-esteem issues from my past – an unconscious need for acceptance, approval and validation and in an unhealthy way, OM helped to provide that for me (also with the recent e-mails). I think this is the main reason why I became vulnerable and weak when I received his e-mails and stupidly responded on it. As I’ve said on my thread, it seems I still have internal issues I need to address. And the fact that the OM and EA is like an "addiction" adds to this. However, I don't feel vulnerable to the OM; addictive to him or "in love" with him now, but I know Satan is very clever and will try to "attack" me again when he gets the gap (if you understand what I mean). This is why I've said I take NC very seriously this time and will not allow sporadic or limited e-mail ever again (like I did before and which have lead to the recent massive e-mail exchanges).

I take NC very seriously this time

Don't kid yourself Suzet*. If you were serious you'd expose to get an NC police ally in OMs life. But you won't. So it snot important to you. Maybe you want OM to still feel good about you ? I dunno. You sure ain't serious about NC. Don;t say otherwise. 'cos its bull IMO. What you care is what you DO not what you SAY.

pep:

You love stingers!

A good stinger is done in context.


Can you explain the meaning and the context of your stinger?

Suzet:

I understand the low self-esteem issue. When we have it---we need external validation.

I suspect your H is not working hard in meeting your EN of admiration. How is he doing?

I also believe that there is always a little more than just the issue of low self-esteem. Some personalities and phenotypes may be attractive to some people (more so than others).

I will also admit that there are women that have such a strong need for admiration that will have the affair with whomever can meet that EN, whether female, male, thin, fat, young, or old, single, married, ect. I personally know of one person with those traits and the need for admiration over-rides everything.

What do you think?

OM's true colors have ZERO to do with Myrta's decisions

Myrta's moral compass is relevant to your marriage .... not OM's flaws

... if Myrta rejects OM based on his flaws and NOT based on her intrinsic value of HER fidelity in marriage ...

then she remains vulnerable when a less flawed man propositions her

and that would be her true colors ... available if/when "better" comes along

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep

.... and you perpetuate this myth when you insist on doing OM's autopsy instead of Myrta's

Pep:

You make excellent points. At the end of the day the affair has to do with the moral compass of the wayward spouse------you are preaching to the choir.

OP can be a near deity or lower than whale $hit in the bottom of the ocean-----it really does not matter.

You must also understand that some of us need a punching bag and we relish the discovery of flaws in the OM. Nothing more than a mechanism of defense to treat our symptoms post d-day. I guess some of us develop a case of low self-esteem.

I also believe that the moral compass of a person is established very early on in life and we tend to have the same proclivities to do good or bad for a lifetime.



Certainly some affairs are the result of a spouse that treats the other like crap. In the so-called exit affair there is the perception that the OP is the better person. But, in the end of the day it all goes back to the moral compass-----you are right.

The moral compass is not easily changed. The only thing one can do is to meet ENs and hope for the best.

I suspect Stan .....

you have always treated your wife with caution knowing she has a short fuse

Pep:



I treat her the best I can. However, is not a short fuse. It is a mechanism of defense to deal with low self-esteem.

Having developed some low self-esteem post d-day I can tell you it is no picnic going thru life with low self-esteem.


BTW, do you know anyone that does not have a degree of low self-esteem?

I do not claim low self esteem

I see no value in that

particularly when it is used as an excuse to hurt others

Pep:

You are on your high horse.

If you never had low self-esteem you are a lucky woman.

However, in the end it all comes down to values----------I agree (preaching to the choir).

Stan ... I did not say I NEVER had low self esteem ... I said I do not claim low self esteem

in particular when "low self esteem" is the stated root of poor choices ... I think the converse is true ~~~> poor choices cause low self esteem .... NOT the other way around

what do you mean "high horse" ? Are you trying to put me down, or is there a different meaning I do not understand?

Those with low self-esteem are sometimes threatened by someone that preaches from higher moral ground.

Yep, poor choices certainly do not help. However, there seems to be more to the issue. We all know poor achievers with great self-esteem and high achievers with poor self-esteem. It is a complex issue.

If we follow your theory then one could conclude that Suzet has an evil trait rather than low self-esteem as to why she causes harm to her marriage. It is more complex that that.

What do you think?

I am completely lost Stan ...

do you want to drop this or continue?

Stanley & Pep,

Interesting insight regarding low self-esteem. IMO, low self-esteem and depression often (if not always) go hand-in-hand. One of you mentioned something about people on different moral high grounds having esteem issues. Well, I'd say most Americans believe President Abraham Lincoln was a man who stood on pretty high moral ground. He once said,

"I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would be not one cheerful face on earth." Old Abe suffered from depression, a clinical fact. Just thought this was interesting enough to pass on....

KJ

Stanley,

Is this truly what you believe about Myrta and other FWSs?

Mrs. W

My syntax is strange because I translate as I write (no time to edit).

You may go on. Where did I lose you?

Is Myrta reading here?

Why isn't she posting and trying to find answers to these questions?

Yes, those with the proclivity to get in trouble need to be more vigilant about themselves.

When these folks do well in life they are to be admired because their success was much harder to achieve when compared to those that are natural goody-two-shoes.

I know you made the question because you have something else in mind. What is it?

She is visiting her mom. Many elderly don't have computers. My mom has no use for a computer----she is in her late 80s.

I am sure she will post when she comes back.

KJ:

Depressed folks may have low self-esteem---I agree.

However, those that appear extremely bubbly and happy may also have low self-esteem. However, it is difficult to be complately happy with low self-esteem---no doubt.
So what comes 1st the ddepression or the low self-esteem?

How about VERY early in life....like conception. It's called humanity and you are no more or no less human than your wife unless you are submitting you are some moral machine that NEVER behaves immorally.

Is that you, my Lord??? (no offense, sarcasm - you do get that don't you)

I submit that I firmly believe Mrs. W is no more immoral TODAY than I, she is no more at risk of behaving immorally TODAY than I. She made a big mistake last year but WE have got through it and over it and are better because of it. Her character is not in question. Her confidence and self-esteem are remaining issues that WE are working on TOGETHER but those issues pre-date the affair and no longer continue at pre-affair levels. She is building herself up, with my assistance, empathy, care and support. She is a part of me after all.

We do NC because that is the program. OM is irrelevant, otherwise. I don't fear him nor am I concerned my wife has latent "feelings" or "loyalty" to him. He is not a back-up plan for Mrs. W in the event something should happen to me and he, individually, is no longer a "person" in our lives. He has become an "it" ....merely "OM". I don't wish him dead or maimed. I hope he finds contentment in his life. I do wish he had apologized directly to me in response to the email I sent him above but I have no need or desire to request it. I forgave him nonetheless and released it as he is/was, after all, just as human as my wife.

Mr. Wondering

Stanley,



Oh yeah, this I know first-hand! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



I'd say this differs for everyone. In my case, I believe they came as a package deal. Unfortunately, my depression wasn't treated for a long time, and my low self-esteem is still a huge problem. Interesting that my depression is being managed, yet I still have low self-esteem issues. Maybe they aren't as closely tied as I tend to believe.

KJ

Stanley... don't know if it would be the same with your sich...

Not only did the OMW thank me for exposing to her, but so did the OM. He was caught in a self-defeating situation, probably in a MLF, and he did not have enough nerve to tell his own W. He has two great kids both past high school but living at home. He didn't want to lose his family, but feared it would be the end if he told his W. They are still struggling but working together to make it work like my FWW and I are.

My exposure forced him to face the truth and get the help they needed. I believe they will make it through.

Shaden

Mr Wondering:

There is no right and wrong. In fact—ALL MORALITY is relative.

I did not claim moral superiority in my argument------however, I implied that perhaps Pep was preaching from the Evangelical Pulpit.

The record shows that some folks will not cheat despite a zillion unmet ENs and very poor treatment by the spouse. OTOH, others will cheat within the context of a happy marriage.

There are differences-----this is likely a multifactorial problem.

I once saw a child die with chicken pox. The death was prompt, a tragedy. I suspect this kid was as healthy as any other child, but he had a tiny hole in his immune system. The boy had no ability whatsoever to defend himself against the virus. I use this analogy to tell you that the most upright moral person in the planet can have a hole somewhere in his morality DNA-like code.

You mentioned low self-esteem issues with Mrs. Wondering. I believe this is the key to whether we act in an upright manner or not.

By definition low self-esteem implies a discrepancy between the inner self and the outer shell. Whenever there is a discrepancy there is tension and instability. It is very difficult to put up a façade 24/7. Sooner or later there is a need to look for outside help to bring stability to the system. By now we know that no one can raise the self-esteem of another person-----it does not work that way. However, many philanderers try and then try some more.

I also believe that the drive for this admiration may over-ride some safety switches and compromises are made. Many with low self-esteem lack self-respect------a necessary ingredient to betray an innocent bystander.

KJ:

Just be yourself! Make sure there is no difference between what is inside and your outer shell.

Do the right thing every time------ and slowly over a long period of time your self-esteem will get better.

There was discussion above about NC.

NC is absolutely necessary for a FWS to gain perspective on the situation. To observe there must be distance.

So long as OM exists in any circumstances of FWW's life, FWW is a participant. A participant cannot observe.

Stanley,

You're funny. If it were that simple honey, I'd be the world's most confident FWW!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm a work in progress, it'll come.

Thanks for the encouragement though, that never hurts!!

KJ

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



I am Roman Catholic ... which is located a pretty far distance from an Evangelical pulpit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Stan ... I guess when the discussion got a little too close to the bone you decided to try and cut me down ....

It's OK , I completely understand


I am certainly not your cup of tea....

I do wish you and your wife well & God's speed

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Pep

There is no right and wrong. In fact—ALL MORALITY is relative.

I completely disagree. we've discussed this in the past however.

Action--reaction.

Cause-effect.

Good behavior--increased probability of good outcome.

Bad behavior--increased probabiity of bad outcome.

Yeah, its all relative...relative to the right decisions and the wrong ones.

Pep, the term preaching from the pulpit came after you implied you wanted to retire. So I must have said something else that offended you. In any event I apologize if you feel I wanted to stop the conversation because it is not going my way. On the contrary, I want to continue.

BP:

All acts occur within a set of circumstances. An act in itself has no morality. What determines the morality of a given act is the circumstance.

For example killing in self-defense may be acceptable if one is truly defending one’s life.

Killing for sport is murder.

Same act---different circumstance.

Ahuman: I will cite the words of the famous philosopher Pep-----"You lost me"

Morality is based upon a thought not an action. Right or wrong comes from the thought...

"Killing for sport is murder"... a man out hunting in the field sees movement, believes it's his prey...aims and fires. He kills another man... immoral? Not if he thought the movement was a deer. (although still not a great sport). But if he spied the movement, saw it was a man, and shot anyway...that is immoral. The same circumstances, but the thought is different. I guess you might say that because the hunter knows it is a man in the 2nd example, then the circumstances are different... but the only difference is the knowledge and thought... not the action.

Shaden

Many philosophers would also agree that there are certain truths (values) that encompass all of life... whether the person is Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, etc..

These values or morals will always remain true regardless of the circumstances.

Shaden

Stanley,

Can you give us an update on Myrta? How is she doing? Any more threats of contact by OM? How's her mom? When is Myrta coming home?

KJ

Morality: a system of social codes designed to produce a higher probability of “good” responses…good meaning those responses that encourage individual survival and survival of the group (which is needed to ensure survival of the individual).

Moral action leads to higher probability of survival for the group/individual, and immoral action to lower probability of survival of the group/ individual.

Take your murder / death example.

Moral action—self defense. Increased probability of surviving if you kill NOT to be killed.

Immoral action—murder. If everyone murders,there will be more deaths which increase the likelihood that YOU TOO will die.

Take another example:

Fidelity. By staying with the mate you select, there is an increased probability in survival of offspring (and in assuring that the offspring you raise, are in fact YOURS), because of an increase in family unit security, which is necessary to raise offspring. This is even true in the polygamy context--fidelity being assured only by the women.

Infidelity leads to a counter result. Decrease likelihood that offspring are yours, decreased likelihood you would care for offspring, and so on.

So my point was that there is a “right” way and “wrong” way, depending on what sort of outcome a person is seeking.
Action (moral)--reaction (increased probability of survival). Cause--effect.


Of course morality does not exist idependent of circumstances. NOTHING exists (not even the notion of NOTHING) outside of circumtstances. What is nothing, unless compared to something?

Still lost?

KJ:

Thanks for asking. Myrta is flying home tonight; I will pick her up at Dulles around 10 PM.

Since the last visit by OM last Monday there have been no more incidents. As you know Myrta was able to get away from the house of her mom as he was arriving. She has been staying with my mother and everything seems OK.

Regarding issues of self-esteem:

I wanted to say a few words to you about that.

My wife always had low self-esteem and I noted she needed lots of admiration. Initially I thought self-esteem issues could be cured with achieving success. However, I now realize that people with a great deal of success can have serious self-esteem issues. By the same token folks that are less talented and accomplished can have very good self-esteem.

The only thing that makes sense to me regarding self-esteem is that people that feel unworthy tend to have a discrepancy in how they feel and what they project to the world. As long as your inner self is not congruent with your outer shell you have instability. Eventually you need to seek outside help to validate who you are. This is something you cannot do on your own because you are pretending to be something else.

Ahuman:

I agree!

BTW, in the booklet “Mere Christianity” CS Lewis wrote about the issue of certain moral principles that are present in virtually all societies thru world history. There are some things that are universal in terms of morality despite the differences in culture. He used this as the platform to try to prove the existence if a God.

Stanley,

I agree 100% with your views on self-esteem. I admit, I've never sought outside help for this issue. I need to.

Glad to hear Myrta is coming home. Does she post here? I'd love to talk with her.

I'm curious about your occupation. I have this tendency to try to put people on this forum into classifications (but not judging them, very different to me). My brother has his PhD in Space Studies. His intellect and verbal communication skills are so similar to yours. If I had to guess, I'd say you are in some type of career that needs constant analytical thought processes. i.e. scientist (that's my brothers official job title), physician, cognitive therapist, product analysis, marketing analysis, computer programming. If you don't mind entertaining me here, I'd love to know what you do for a living. If not, that's fine too.

Have a great weekend!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KJ

KJ:



The key point is that no one can raise your self-esteem, but you. The most efficient way is to be congruent at al times. By the way, if you look up the definition of integrity it will say something like being “whole”. If you work at having a similar inner and outer shell you are congruent and whole. It does not matter whether you are a lawyer or a house painter, thin or obese. Congruency can always be achieved.






Myrta got back last night. I really missed her despite the short duration of her trip. We had a great reunion later that night.

Unfortunately OM showed up as she was in the driveway getting ready to go to the airport, so there was visual contact. Myrta’s entire family was there, nevertheless OM came to them. Myrta was in shock---this man is really obsessed-----She did her best not to make any eye contact. After getting off the car OM realized the awkwardness of the situation and the fact that there was no warmth in my wife’s eyes. He left very quickly. I don’t think this had a negative impression on my wife----so I am happy. I think my wife did quite well and I am proud of her.




I am a physician, but I do not do any clinical medicine right now other than help with the planning of radiotherapy of cancer patients. Otherwise, I spend many hours in a dark room reading PET scans----not very glamorous. I suspect , I am older than you-----I have been married for 33 years.

Thanks for asking KJ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />