Limbo,

Well thank you very much. At least someone out there has half a brain and can see analogy talent when it hits 'em in the face!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, just got done with my son's 7th b-day party, I'm feeling a bit discombobulated, ya know what I mean?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

This is a great thread tho', seriously hope it continues for a while and receives new breath now and again.

Ta!

KJ

KJ:

Sometimes a good post gets few replies because most people agree with the contents.



Mrs. W:

If OM was married----------would you have done it?

I suspect that some wayward spouses may not have an affair with a married OP. I believe the reasoning has to do with not betraying an innocent bystander the BS).

OTOH, betraying one's spouse seems easier because of prior LBs, rewriting of marital history, justification, ect. SOme go as far as to tell themselves---he or she will not care.

What do you think?

I suspect that some wayward spouses may not have an affair with a married OP. I believe the reasoning has to do with not betraying an innocent bystander the BS)

Stanley
Not sure many WS choose their affair partners using a morality filter. Especially judging by the number of calls to expose to OP spouse on these boards.

Morality seems to be temporarily overridden for an affair to take place with someone, married or not.

MrsWondering, I agree with you to some degree and this is why I’ve posted the following on my withdrawal thread:

[color:"blue"]“Remind yourself of things about the OP that were definitely negative. Magnify them if you have to. Remind yourself that your spouse have it over the OP big time in a couple of major ways e.g:

i) Your spouse didn't indulge in an A with a married man/women.

ii) They love you enough to want to stay with you and stand by you, in spite of the pain you caused him/her.

The above two things alone show you the kind of love and integrity from your BS.[/color]

However, keep in mind that even a "nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" married person can “fall in love” or develop “feelings of love” towards another person...and this can happen even if the other person is a “low-life scummy individual” (to use Stanley's words) or someone you wouldn’t choose as a marriage partner if you were single (see my post to Stanley underneath and the extractions from “Road Less Traveled”).

However (as you will see from my post underneath) “falling in love” of developing “feelings of love” towards another person doesn’t give one the right to ACT on such feelings. However, many people do act on such feelings and behave very destructive to themselves and others for various reasons/issues within themselves and not necessarily because they are “bad scummy” individuals. Often such individuals lack “impulse control” or lack of will-power and discipline to control temptation and their own weaknesses. And for this reason many "nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" etc. individuals DO temporally lose their way and become involved with married people... Just as “nice”, “decent’, “successful”, “secure” (or whatever) individuals can lose their way and become alcoholics or addictive to other damaging substances.

Stanley, please keep in mind that – as MelodyLane has already pointed out to you – my case is/was not a “best case scenario”. As long as I still work at the same company and live in the same city than OM, it will never be a “best case scenario” at all. I’m convinced that – should I have not worked at the same place and live in the same city than OM and should OM have not tried to contact me again after DDay (if I was in a situation where OM doesn’t have any contacting details for me like work e-mail and telephone) – I would have not had this continuing weakness towards OM and I would have not failed to have gotten “over” him completely.

Further, you need to take into consideration that – in my specific case - I was still in some sort of a “fog” all these years (I realized it after the recent happenings). Previously I viewed my involvement with OM as only “inappropriate friendship” and “early stage EA” and because of this I believed it was okay all these years to still allow some sporadic and minor contact from OM now and then. Big mistake… Also, in my previous NC letters I’ve failed to state NC as a FINAL and PERMANENT decision (which I did in my 3rd letter). I believe if I had not previously allowed OM to still send me greetings on birthdays and after New Year through e-mail etc., everything wouldn’t have lead up to the massive e-mail exchanges we’ve had recently. So, taking all of the above into consideration, my case was not even close to a “best case scenario”.

Stanley, I have never once on these forums said OM is a “low-life scummy individual” - it’s not my place or right to call or judge him as one – that right belongs to God and God alone. Also, if I view him as one, I also have to view myself as a “low-life scummy individual” which I’m not… Remember, I have equal responsibility as him for the past EA.

Stanley, also keep in mind that the fact that I’ve developed romantic feelings for the OM back then...and the fact that some of those feelings has returned with the recent contact, doesn’t mean that I like OM, admire him as a person or would choose him as a long-term partner if both of us were single (which I don’t).

As I’ve pointed out to pojitos on my thread (and which I want to copy for you here again), the book “Road Less Traveled” by M. Scott Peck was very insightful and especially the following extracts helped to give me perspective regarding this (please pay attention to the parts I've put in bold since this will reflect my own feelings):

[color:"blue"] Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that ‘falling in love’ is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love.

Falling in love is not an act of will. It is not a conscious choice. Not matter how open to or eager for it we may be, the experience may still elude us. Contrarily, the experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable. We are as likely to fall in love with someone with whom we are obviously ill matched as with someone more suitable. Indeed, we may not even like or admire the object of our passion, yet, try as we might, we may not be able to fall in love with a person whom we deeply respect and with whom a deep relationship would be in all ways desirable.

This is not to say that the experience of falling in love is immune to discipline. Psychiatrists, for instance, frequently fall in love with their patients, just as their patients fall in love with them, yet out of duty to the patient and their role they are usually able to abort the collapse of their ego boundaries and give up the person as a romantic object. The struggle and suffering of the discipline involved may be enormous. But discipline and will can only control the experience; they cannot create it. We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself.

Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways.
It is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love.

True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision. Genuine love implies commitment and the exercise of wisdom. When we are concerned for someone’s spiritual growth, we know that a lack of commitment is likely to be harmful and that commitment to that person is probably necessary for us to manifest our concern effectively.

Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised.

The common tendency to confuse love with feelings of love allows people all manner of self-deception. It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one’s feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one’s actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love, it is correct to say, ‘Love is as love does’.[/color]

Here is the thread I posted long ago about "Road Less Traveled" and the full extracts on love.

Back in 2003 I have posted a thread on the most important lessons I’ve learned and my perceptive then and prior to my EA. One of my perceptions before my EA was that:

“if you truly love your spouse, there can never be a place in your heart for someone else. If you develop feelings for someone else, you don’t really love your spouse.”

After my EA I have learned that the above perception was false and that:

“it IS possible to truly love your S and at the same time have feelings for someone else. The theory of the love bank explains this phenomenon very clearly.”

As stated by Scott Peck,

”My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love.”

Thanks for this post Suzet. I did not see it on your thread because I avoid your thread. Nothing personal. It just has too many triggers.

Stanley, I agree with you on a lot of things but I also am seeing tunnel vision in your views lately. I also think you read too much TOW. On the other hand, I think the fact that Mrs. W protests so vehemently is very telling. I am just not sure what it is telling.

I have read TRLT but I don't think many WS's would agree with Scott Peck's definition of true love. I have said it before - the big difference between a WS and a BS is that the WS believes love is a feeling while the BS believes it is an action. While that divergence exists, there will never be recovery.

My wife certainly did. It is the cause of much grief for her, betraying a friend as well as her husband and family.


Wow - do you ever understand my FWW!

FWIW Stanley, according to HNHN, a FWS is always vulnerable to their OP - as the LB balance is positive when an affair has not run it's course - a conclusion I reached by myself before Harley even stated it at the end of the book. I think this point has been neglected in this thread and it is definitely not a popular point of view. If not true, NC would not be essential.

BK <donning his asbestos underwear>

I understand piojitos. If you have questions or need clarification on specific issues, please feel free to ask.

Piojitos, you’re correct that WS's believe love is a feeling and not action…and I think this is the main reason they allow themselves to get involved with the OP in the first place… They reason that the “in love” or “feelings of love” they have developed for the OP give them the right to act on those feelings - they feel entitled and use the “in love feelings” as justification and rationalization for destructive and wrong behavior.

I think what also fuels the "in love feelings" for the OP and make it so obsessive and intense, is the thought of “forbidden fruit” and the temptation of it – Satans oldest tactic in the book. Actually, after I received those candid e-mail from OM, I could literally feel the lure. I think what I’ve actually experienced at the time was a change in brain chemicals - a huge dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin injection (I will explain this later on in this post) and I could also feel the changes and lure in my body. No excuse for what I’ve done – just some insight.

I think "Road Less Travelled" is a MUST read for any person - especially people who've become involved in infidelity and who was/are overwhelmed by "in love feelings" for the OP. This book helped tremendously to clear up my misconceptions about love. And this book and what I’ve learned form it, help me to keep my focus right even though some residual feelings for the OM has returned with the recent e-mail exchanges. I recognize those feelings for what they are and don’t pay attention to it. And this is the main difference between the withdrawal I had back then (when the EA fist ended) and some withdrawal (residual feelings) I still have after the recent happenings.

(Poijitos and others - what I'm going to post now I have posted before so excuse the repeat. I just think it will be beneficial for the purpose of this thread and the additional insight it can give to BS's)

Back then, when I fist developed the “in love feelings” for OM, I felt very confused about my feelings for OM and started questioning my feelings for my H. At the time, I was thinking “I love my H, but is not in love with him”. This was all part of the “fog” and also my own lack of knowledge and understanding about the nature of love and the differences between infatuation; “falling” in love and mature love in a M (as explained by Peck in “Road Less Traveled”). At the time, I didn’t understand how it could be possible to develop such deep “in love” feelings for another man while still loving my own spouse and happily married… I thought it couldn’t be possible to have feelings of love for two men at the same time and therefore I thought there must have been something "missing" or wrong with the way I felt towards my own H. However, I have read and researched a lot on this topic (as well as “Road Less Traveled” at the time) and discovered the following:

People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high – which generates feelings of lust & infatuation towards the person. These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off. When the WS then develop “feelings of love” for someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I have learned that I was indeed “in love” with my dear H, but just in a more mature way.

To explain this better: Dr Phil once said there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love... He said spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. To use his exact words: The partner in a long & committed R became the soft place to fall. This is so true. My H is indeed my soft place to fall. He is the only one who knows ALL about me: he knows all my strengths & weaknesses, he knows the beautiful parts about me and the ugly parts; he knows me on by “down” days and my “good” days, but he still loves me and accepts me just the way I am, with ALL my faults and flaws.

The following is from a website link and very insightful:
Therefore, often the problem with foggy WS/FWS’s is their ideas about love and the true meaning of mature love in a M.

The WS/FWS needs to realize it is not possible to always have & maintain that “high” feelings of “in love” like when you first enter a relationship, especially not in a long term & committed relationship like a M… One or other time in a relationship that feelings wears off and transforms and develops into something more mature and stable.

Here is something about the different "stages" in a new relationship and how brain chemicals play a role in all this:

[color:"blue"]Stage 1: LUST
Lust is driven by the sex hormones testosterone and oestrogen. Testosterone is not confined only to men. It has also been shown to play a major role in the sex drive of women. These hormones as Helen Fisher says "get you out looking for anything".

Stage 2: ATTRACTION
This is the truly love-struck phase. When people fall in love they can think of nothing else. They might even lose their appetite and need less sleep, preferring to spend hours at a time daydreaming about their new lover.

In the attraction stage, a group of neuro-transmitters called 'monoamines' play an important role:

Dopamine - Also activated by cocaine and nicotine

Norepinephrine - Otherwise known as adrenalin. Starts us sweating and gets the heart racing

Serotonin - One of love's most important chemicals and one that may actually send us temporarily insane

Stage 3: ATTACHMENT
This is what takes over after the attraction stage, if a relationship is going to last. People couldn't possibly stay in the attraction stage forever, otherwise they'd never get any work done!

Attachment is a longer lasting commitment and is the bond that keeps couples together when they go on to have children. Important in this stage are two hormones released by the nervous system, which are thought to play a role in social attachments:

Oxytocin - This is released by the hypothalamus gland during child birth and also helps the breast express milk. It helps cement the strong bond between mother and child. It is also released by both sexes during orgasm and it is thought that it promotes bonding when adults are intimate. The theory goes that the more sex a couple has, the deeper their bond becomes

Vasopressin - Another important chemical in the long-term commitment stage. It is an important controller of the kidney and its role in long-term relationships.[/color]

Therefore, one or other time the couple in a long and committed relationship like M will move to the "attachment" stage and then the other feelings will wear off. I don't say feelings of passion, romance etc. in a M will necessarily go away (it will depend on the partners willingness to work on the romantic side of the M and fulfill each others most important EN's and not taking each other for granted), but still, it's unrealistic to expect that feelings to stay the same as during the first stages of the relationship.

Hope this post has helped to give you further insight on this poijitos.
Suzet

Thanks Suzet*. The problem is I'm not the one who really needs the insight.

BK,

The math does make sense. I also think that wamr feelings for the OP are a defense mechanism. It is far easier (IMO) to believe the OP is a great person / lost love / soulmate and that you are giving all that up to be a "moral" person and stay in your marriage than to admit to yourself that the OP was a mistake, the A was a mistake and have to live with self-recrimination. I can't say - just conjecture on my part. Whatever the root cause, I can see why I would believe that most WP's have feelings for OP's.

From the more practical perspective, it does make investing in Plan A / Recovery a seriously troubling undertaking. I have about a year into this. If WW bumps into OM do I go back to square one? Where is the exit door? I have to say that for someone in Plan A, this thread is very disconcerting - from both sides of the fence BTW.

Piojitos, I don’t think there is any FWS who thinks of the OP as a “lost love” or “soul mate” – I certainly don’t. If there is a FWS who thinks that, he/she is probably still in a fog. Even with some residual feelings for OM which have returned recently, I know OM was not, is not and will never be my “soul mate”. Actually the contradictory is true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I don’t believe in the concept of a “star crossed lover” or “one soul mate” for each person anymore (I once did when I was still delusional <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). IMO a person can have more than one "soul mate" - it can be a husband, sibling, parent, grandparent or even friend of the same sex. One can also choose a "soul mate" by marrying the person of your choice IMO.

Suzet:

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

My wife’s OM is long distance (2500 miles). However, OM is from my wife’s hometown (where I also grew up).

Since d-day and the end of the affair (over two years ago) OM has been a stalker. Two days ago my wife had to fly home due to illness in the family (her mom needed a pacemaker). During the last two years OM has methodically infiltrated all family members and is now considered a friend of the family. Before my wife got home OM already knew she was coming and that this time she would be alone.

No one in the family knows that there was an affair. My mother in law thinks OM is the most wonderful man in the world and she adores him. She simply runs out of beautiful adjectives to praise OM (who goes out of his way to be her friend). OTOH, my dad in law smells a rat. He cannot understand why OM wants to be such a good friend of the family and why he is always asking about my wife’s whereabouts.

I think some women are naturally susceptible to “OM talk”. I know for a fact my wife’s mother adores this man because he is charming and very helpful. He offers to take her to the doctor, brings her food, ect. IN other words OM is like a very caring family member to her. This man has an amazing talent for manipulation, there is no doubt.

I am not sure why that is the case, but many women fall for this. Is like these guys have radar for susceptible women and they know exactly what to say. I don’t mention this to say my wife was 100% innocent in the affair, but you get my drift.

I suspect your OM is of the same mold as my wife’s OM. These guys are charmers, are very good at crying on Q, play the manipulation game very well, and know when to make you feel guilty if you ever try to get rid of them.


For the record I don’t think all OMs are scum. For many WWs OM may be the perfect fit at that point in time. Perhaps the H is a better man, but not a good fit.

Stanley,



Ya, I know, I was just "in a mood"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Also,



I personally agree with what you've stated here, but I also suspect not all WS's would agree. Once again, different scenerios for every WS. It was true for me though, I remember being relieved OM wasn't married with children. Somehow lessened the guilt of the A. I did convince myself my H would be hurt at first, but that he would get over it quite easily. I could not have been more wrong. Amazing what a WS can justify during their A. My most unbelievable justification was believing my children would adjust well. God, what a sickness....

KJ

My most unbelievable justification was believing my children would adjust well. God, what a sickness....

*TJ* Squid used to tell me " Kids are resilient" and "OM says divorce was good for his estranged children - toughened them up".

My mouth hangs open even as I recall that. If you knew Squid she is the most "mother hen", investing and protective mother on earth. A sickness indeed....

Stanley, I think you’re 100% spot on. As I’ve said on my thread last week (I don’t know if you’ve read it) - after everything that have happened recently and especially OM’s response on my NC letter - I’m convinced now OM is a predator and was a ‘player’ all along…even during the times he instigated a friendship and have won my trust through his “concern” and “friendship”. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I didn’t want to believe it all these years but I do see it now. I realized this after I've received his stupid "soul mate" response on my NC-letter...that's why I felt so MAD. It’s difficult to digest but on the good side, this realization of mine has helped tremendously to put a huge “damper” on the residual feelings for him which have returned after the recent e-mail exchanges. Actually I feel embarrassed and so stupid now for they way I have responded on his e-mails and the way I was manipulated by his words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I think this has to change and should have changed a long time ago. To allow OM to unsuspectively infiltrate your wife's family is to allow the fox into the henhouse. Exposing your wifes affair to them IS NOT vindictive, it is a consequence of HER affair AND may not have been necessary once the affair was over absent the actions of OM....but it is blantantly apparent it is very important now.

This goes along with all the MB principles we have discussed in this very thread. Despite our best intentions and feelings that our FWW's will not risk contact again with their specific OM, inadvertant contact is still contact and EXTREME measures must be undertaken by both FWW and BH to insure against both purposeful AND inadvertant contact. It's a matter of PROTECTION, not mistrust.

Your wife's family has inadvertantly and unintentionally been feeding your wife's "addiction" to OM by passing along information about his comings and goings. How is she to detach long enough to realize and release any "loyalty" or "feelings" she may retain for the affair and/or OM IF she is continually being updated about him. OM's relevance in her family's lives probably means continued relevance in your wife's life.

I think OM should be exposed and her family can do what they want with the information. They may continue being friendly with him or not, but at the very least, they should be directed NOT to discuss OM with your wife at all. OM can THEN become irrelevant.

Mrs. W's OM lives 750 miles away in her hometown. I would not have any hesitation of my wife visiting her parents because THEY KNOW. They have been 100% supportive of us and would report ANY shinangans directly to me. It was Mrs. W's mom that first tipped me off about the affair in the first place and she has been instrumental in the recovery of our marriage. She's one good egg that WE have been blessed to have in OUR corner.

Give your in-laws the opportunity to do good by you both as well and disassociate themselves from your family's OM...as his intentions are insidious AND YOU KNOW IT. I implore you to expose EVIL.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: If MIL is sick and not telling her so close to death is important to you maybe you can tell your FIL, in confidence, to extricate OM from the entire family. FIL can have a one on one with OM and tell him to scram while retaining the secret from MIL so near the end of her life.

Mr. W:

Your argument is sound.

My wife does not want to tell the family because it would severely damage how she is perceived by her parents and siblings. Her sisters would probably destroy her with gossip and my children would eventually learn of the infidelity. yY children think that my wife is the greatest mom in the planet.


I agree that OM gets vicarious pleasure from becoming a good friend of the family and my wife gets to hear updates when she calls my mother in law. I trust and hope that my wife will not be among the FWWs that have a relapse-------all I can do is hope. I actually trust her, but there is always the chance of a relapse and I have a very firm boundary regarding that issue------------the marriage would end instantly.

However, I am very optimistic that my wife is handling this quite well and she is keeping me informed while she is over there.

BTW, OM has already called my mom in law home and managed to talk to my wife when mom in law passed the phone tom her. My wife had no choice, but talk to OM while her mom stood by her.

I am not worried----this is out of my hands. I have done all I can and if this thing fails then I can at least say I tried. However, I seriously doubt my wife will weaken with OM contact.

Yes, Stanley, I believe this to be true. A big realization for me has been the understanding that happiness is a choice and that you are indeed responsible for your own happiness. I now have a full understanding that you must draw from the inside, and that life can only really change for you if you change YOU, and not your surroundings-you can't escape yourself. Finally, at the age of 36, I get that stuff-a truly big victory for me.

Dr. Harley says that we are ALL susceptible to the temptation of affairs. For this reason, it is important that EVERYONE take the steps necessary to protect themselves-insecure or not. Even though I do think that insecurity plays a significant role in why a WS becomes a WS, I will once again defer to the expert, because truly, I can only speak from my own perspective as a FWS and a layperson.


HE BETTER NOT BE, OR THAT BOY IS IN TROUBLE, and since I'm "THE BOSS", WELL...!!! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I am quite the "firecracker", but he is the head of our household and I defer to his most wise and even tempered judgement. We do, however, joke about my use of the "POJA Stick"-that refers to when I come at POJA with the outcome already decided-when this is pointed out, it always makes me laugh and the POJA once again becomes an actual POJA. Mr. W has become an expert at diffusing this self proclaimed "firecracker"!

But Stanley, the interest comes because NOW I have established context and more importantly RAPPORT with you...Remember, that was my goal from the beginning. Without rapport, I could make a million valid points, but you wouldn't listen at all...makes sense, no?



I will try to make this brief, but YIKES, what a question...Here's the thing Stanley, in many ways, I am no different than you or anyone else for that matter. Right now, if I asked any newlywed if they would have an affair, we all know what their answer would be. Mine would certainly have been NO...Yours would have been no...Your wife's would have been no...Really, the question about what I would have done if he would have been married cannot be answered now.

In my own situation, I don't believe the opportunity would have presented for me to even have had the chance to make that decision. See, that was actually discussed somewhat, because FOM in his hypnotic flowery monologues to me talked about how many times that he thought of contacting me while he was married and said that he knew better, because he would have been unable to resist me...(RIGHT, SURE Mr. Casanova-BIG FAT GAG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)...At our 5 year HS reunion, while he was married, he literally would not even look at me, he said, for the previous stated reason...So, it appears that had he have still been married, he wouldn't have contacted me at all-and he didn't. When his marriage ended, he felt free to contact me as soon as he located my information on classmates.com, nice that he respected my marriage so much, huh? Especially since according to him, he knew that the attraction would be so automatic-sheesh...As much as I would like to say no, clearly moral issues were not a very high priority when I made the choices that I did, so I'm not sure that his marital status would have mattered. My affair was, after all, all about me, so I would have been at the same "jumping off spot", so to speak, no matter what his status...So, the definitive answer, is a firm, "I don't know"...sigh...



BigK, clearly I won't disagree with Dr. Harley's wisdom. I will say that in my case, the affair had run it's course...Of this I feel certain...Funny thing about that, I dated my FOM off and on for 9 years while very young and single, and then sickly and sadly, as an adult while married...the "relationship" ended every single time in much the same way it did this last time...I GET IT FINALLY...IT WAS NOT and IS NOT EVER TO BE-PHEW!!! But that is very telling, isn't it? It really is testament to how crucial it is to follow Dr. Harley's advice about NO CONTACT for life...Where there were ever sparks, sparks can be reignited-healthy or not-whether loyalty or feelings existed or remain(?) are of no significance...I personally will not deviate from Dr. Harley's sage advice-it makes perfect sense to me...NO CONTACT FOR LIFE IS A MUST!!!


BAD VISUAL BigK...You should stay away from spicy foods dude...LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



Ok [/b]Pio[/b], now I nearly ruined my laptop from spewing coffee when I read YOU telling Stanley that he has tunnel vision...Um, hello kettle, this is pot, you're black-LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as my protests go, well, truly the basis for this entire thread was predicated on Stanley's saying this...


Mr. W and I talked about this at great length...It was the ALWAYS that concerned us...The blanket generalization...When we read that, we couldn't help believing that if he felt that way, then surely he must be projecting this on his wife...It sounded to us like something that could really hinder recovery...Further, I have been around the block with my FOM to the point where I know that I don't have loyalty to him at all-obviously, people will infer many things when a FWS says that, I know that...I knew when I posted that I was doing so from behind the 8 ball...Mr. W and I just both know that the word ALWAYS makes Stanley's statement untrue...Further, the word "loyalty"...loyalty implies that a FWS somehow either cares what the OP thinks of them or wants to protect the OP in some way...that is definitely not ALWAYS true...For me to sit and argue my own situation is really pointless here, because we all know that to be an impossible undertaking-say too much, then you are damned, say too little you are damned...That is certainly understandable, I am not complaining, I am the one who put myself in the position of FWS...I damaged my own credibility...I know...But the intent wasn't to prove my story one way or another, but rather to give hope...to perhaps promote healing and prevent stagnant recoveries...


I'm sorry that you feel that way Pio...I'm certain that you can see that was NOT the intent of this thread at all, again, it was just the opposite of that...Really, this thread should give much hope regarding the premise, if you work the program, the program works for you...But it does eventually take two for marital recovery, IMO...



Stanley and Suzet...

This is why I said in an earlier post that it is CRITICAL that a FWS understands and internalizes the rat in a cage(push button for reward) theory...The OMs(rat) manipulate with words (push button) to elicit what they need/want in return.(reward) So terrific if you can see this for what it is...BUT EQUALLY, IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY FOR SUZET, is to see the FWS also as doing the EXACT SAME THING...Seeing this, understanding this, internalizing this shows you just what an affair is-not a real relationship at all, any more than a person has a relationship with cocaine...It is what it is, and a failure to recognize it as such is a huge danger, IMO...When you see it for what it is, all the baloney of the romantic fairytale garbage is completely gone, rendering the affair pretty benign, disarms it immensely, IMO...

KariJean...I loved your car analogy kiddo-I always love your input-I'm really glad you are a part of this community...YOU KNOW THAT "STOOPID"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Happy Birthday to your baby-mine will be 7 in November-where does the time go???

And, OMG, I can't even tell you what idiotic parenting decisions that I made during the affair...I've said here MANY times that a WS is a HORRIBLE and UNFIT parent-of course, a lot of folks don't agree with that, but it was most certainly true in my case...No doubt about it!

Mrs. W

This complete and utter BS by Myrta. To place HER feelings and fear of exposing herself to her family OVER your feelings, her marriage and her family is just horrible. It's NOT a matter of TRUST but a matter of protection. She could have still maintained her secret and NOT taken that phone from her mother. She could have indicated a million reason WHY she doesn't like OM (i.e.- OM disrespected my husband in conversation a few times and my husband has asked me NOT to talk to him or see him and I DIFFER to my husband as he is the most important person in the world to me...end of story). Myrta should have had a plan for such incidental contact which she discussed with you in detail BEFORE she even went home.

This is not MB...Stanley and you know it. So should she too.

In AA when the member falls off the wagon and has even ONE drink they have to begin recovery all over again. Day one. Perhaps because this is a mental addiction and not a physical one it's a little different but Myrta should address with you, today, how she felt about speaking to him, openly and honestly. The Harley addiction theory clearly hypothesizes that the any contact would/could "spark" something, even if it was "inadvertant" or "accidental". Shame on Myrta for taking that phone receiver and making you even "seriously doubt" anything.

Mr. Wondering

Stanley...Here's what I would say to Myrta..."TOUGH TOENAILS!!!"...Myrta is the one who severely damaged her image...Why is her image more important than your marriage and family??? That makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever and is a bunch of fogged out BULL5HIT!!! I have no doubt that Myrta is a good mother while she isn't involved in an affair-just because she made that terrible choice does not mean that she will forever be a bad mother...You do know that Dr. Harley recommends that the children know, right? That's another issue for later...But, seriously, don't you see that it would be far more damaging for your children to lose their family because of the affair resuming than it would be for them to find out that their mother once had an affair(PAST TENSE)?



Um, Stanley, just because she is telling of contact does NOT make the contact any less damaging!


This is just UNREAL...NO WAY STANLEY!!! Your wife did have choices there, yes she did...You know it and I know it...


THIS IS HOGWASH!!! Yes, you are worried, I don't buy that you aren't for one minute! Why are you setting your wife up to fail? Why are you setting your marriage up to fail? You are a smart man, who should very well understand the importance of following the advice of the professional...I recently was told by another MB friend that you are a doctor-I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO FOLLOW THE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE-Dr. Harley has, in essence, written you a prescription for saving your marriage...WHY AREN'T YOU TAKING THE MEDICINE??? Stanley WHY aren't you protecting your wife? This is EXACTLY what Suzet's husband is doing to her by not exposing to OMW...Stanley, "Man Up" and do the right thing for your family!!!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W, I don’t want the affair to be known to anyone. So, in this issue I have been in total agreement with my wife. I have some pride and it would be difficult for me to face her family (or my family) as a betrayed man.

I am also highly protective of the kids even though they tea mostly adults.




I was disappointed that she took the phone from her mom. I suspect that deep inside she wanted to hear OM say once again how much he loves her (and he did many times in the conversation). My wife claims she felt nothing for OM. Mrs. W I can only say so much to my wife. She will react in her own way and she appears to fly by her own radar.

I was also disappointed with several aspects of the conversation that my wife failed to see. For example OM asked her:

OM: Are you happy? Did you find happiness?

My wife replied: I am working on my marriage to get there.

OM: Is your H monitoring you?

Wife: Yes

OM: How does it feel to be watched all the time?

Wife: Is a consequence of the affair. I have to live with it.

OM: I want to see you in person, lets have lunch.

Wife: That is not a good idea.


I have read about scorned lovers and stalkers and what they hear.

“I am working on my marriage to get there.” = I am not happy

“Is a consequence of the affair. I have to live with it.” = The only reason I am not with you is because H watches me like a hawk.

“That is not a good idea.” = hope for OM

This is how scorned lovers interpret the language. My wife should not have come to the phone or at least say a resounding NO with no added excuses.


I discussed these issues with my wife and she states she has to handle OM with white gloves because of the implicit threat to out the affair to her family.

I am certain OM will stalk my wife and try to force a meeting in person. I told my wife to get me on the phone if he tries.











Like I said------I have forgiven her. She is here because she wants to be here. If she does something then she is breaking up the marriage and I will not do anything else. I must tell you that my mindset was to get divorce on d-day. I cannot do any plans (A,B, C or whatever).






I cannot disagree with that point. This week will be critical.

BTW, early on—during recovery I had a dead wish. I almost wanted my wife to resume the affair so I could end the marriage. This was at a time when I was hesitating about staying in the marriage. Maybe I am tempting the devil-------who knows? However, at the same time I know Ilove my wife more than everything in the world.

I will say I was mostly disappointed with the concept that I was watching my wife all the time. This will certainly resonate with OM and give him needed energy to pursue my wife. She could have said: "there is no need for my H to watch me, I will not fail him ever again". However, she did not say these words. I suspect, deep inside most FWWs are afraid to slam the door shut.