Stan, it's not that he doesn't get angry. He's human, of course he gets angry. But he doesn't bluster and bully with it.

Please don't take that personally as though I'm saying that's what you do. I'm only saying what he DOESN'T do.

Ahuman,

Thank you for your posts. My H and I just had a discussion tonight at dinner about this issue...and I felt the old fear rise up and I told myself...hey, it hasn't happened, don't go there.

It helped, just not a lot. Your posts did. That's where I can know the more we know about ourselves, the less I have to fear the future and the more I can love my present...not only not going there, but being here.

Thank you,

LA

To stanley


Can you explain this remark? If you have the inclination...

I ask because I am truly curious how Mrs. W saying I have no feelings for the OM sounds like KiwiJ meeting with OM or Suzet* emailing OM.

I am trying to understand something and I think maybe I missed a portion of what Mrs. W wrote... and so my point of reference here is off.

thanks

EDIT: OOPS. I posted on my wife's account. sorry for the confusion...

patriot

The good news about defense mechanisms.

An opportunity for insight.

If we manage to take down the deflecters and push what is triggering us into the light, it appears so much less threatening...and, whew , we can stop carrying those heavy shields and put down our swords...and get-on-with-da-party.

Time is tickin' away. Life is too damn short...


BTW Ms.W. Uh, hum. For the record, I didn't read your give away about Mr. W.'s profession....since I am obligated to skim your posts for keywords!! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (It truly is apparent in his writing.)

If you are a BS in remission (or recovery) the explanation is rather simple and will become apparent right away.

IMHO, the best case scenario for recovery in infidelity is an OP that is vastly inferior to the BS. Within this context the WS immediately makes the right decision (assuming the fog is not too dense). I also understand that what may seem inferior may be the right fit for a WS at that moment in time.

The other ingredient for a good recovery is a WS that is willing to rebuild the marriage and also willing to do NC for life.

If the marriage was in relatively good shape before the A the odds of recovery are even better and there may not be a whole lot that needs fixing in the marriage.

KiwiJ, Suzet, and Mrs. Wondering are among the most pro-active FWWs I have ever seen in MB, I may also include Dorry in this group. They have posted things that make all BHs quite happy and full of hope. Their contributions have been very beneficial to many of us-------no doubt.

Then two of these ladies showed signs of romantic feelings for OM (despite their own assertions as to how OM was a low-life scummy individual). That is not very reassuring for some of us that are deep in to the recovery trail.

Ahuman made a very good remark that perhaps explains how I deal with these things:




At this point I am a little weary of one that beats the chest constantly about how OM is a piece of garbage, ect. My concern is that I am reading words to comform with the forum.

Do not assume I am threatened by my wife’s OM. In fact, shortly after d-day I was ready to get a divorce and wanted OM to take my wife away from me. In this regard I agree with Mrs. Wondering------my wife stays in the marriage because she wants to stay. Like Dorry my wife dumped OM instantly and was rather cruel with the poor man (that was single and willing to marry her). Suzet had a relationship that was not even called an EA (she called it an inappropriate friendship).

The point is simple:

Even those that are in best case scenarios following d-day do not seem to be immune from an FWW making contact again.

Why is that scary?

I have a boundary-------if my wife makes contact again on her own that is all she wrote. Obviously I want my marriage, I love my wife, and I want to grow old with her. There is a lot at stake and therefore I worry.

As JL suggested---------I trust my wife. In reality I lose nothing by trusting her. If there is a rekindling with OM then I have my answer and in reality lost nothing by trusting her again. I don’t want to love a woman if I cannot trust her-----it does not make sense.

Stanley, I agree it is scary. But that is what you signed on for when you decided to stay. You agreed to take that risk.

However, I wouldn't agree that Kiwi and Suzet were in "best case" scenarios at all. A best case scenario would be to take the greatest precautions to NEVER EVER SEE the OP again, meaning leaving one's career or moving away. This is exactly why Harley states:


We can see what happens when that advice is NOT FOLLOWED. It has a predictable outcome. So no, the 2 cases to which you refer were not "best case" scenarios.

They both appeared to be in healthy recoveries and probably WERE, but even that might not be enough when the inevitable weak moment collides with opportunity. So it is always best to be committed to removing those opportunities.

Stanley...

I would assert that OP is always vastly inferior to the BS by virtue of the fact that they are an OP in the first place..."Nice", "decent", "successful", "secure" (fill in the blank with other positive adjectives) individuals do not become involved with married people...

I do believe that a BS with high self esteem is a key ingredient for a speedier recovery. Obviously, an affair is a blow to the self esteem of any BS, but recovery would seem a much higher summit to reach to a BS with low self esteem pre affair.



I can understand that. I think that I was off in my presentation, because I tried to get my point across using too much of my personal story...We are all guilty of this here from time to time...I just think that in all recoveries, the OP is really insignificant, thereby making the "loyalty"/"love" theories non issues...Ahuman really hits things square on the head regarding affairs being about the issues of the WS...WS Issues-Now that is a post that even verbose me would not care to undertake... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



I believe very strongly that these ladies did not ever delve into themselves and find the root of the problem, therefore they never worked through their internal issues. I believe they underestimated the power of addiction, or perhaps saw themselves as somehow immune to that power. Personally, I have no need to test the theory, and therefore, will defer to the recommendation of the professional.

To have romantic feelings for the OP would be a failure to recognize the rat in the cage(push button for reward) theory...It is CRITICAL that the FWS recognizes this in themselves...I full well know that I manipulated the OM with my words to get from him the exact responses that I wanted...I flat out lied to him many times just to get those things...That is not a very proud admission from me, but it's true, nonetheless...Mr. W even had recordings of me doing this...which actually has been helpful for his recovery, because he heard, firsthand, just how incredibly outrageous the entire sham was-a big benefit of snooping, IMO...


Seriously, we don't POJA posts. We just don't have problems talking to each other about whatever is on our minds. That's what works best for us...



Ah, yes Stanley, NOW I understand your delusion theory very well...Makes perfect sense! LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W

exactly Mel..

Kiwi was practicing MB for awhile...but you see - OM tempted her, and perhaps she had missed something internally to change....and temptation - that contact was too hard to resist...perhaps motivation innocent at first? to fulfill that need of attention, wow - maybe he still pines for me???perhaps that inside was never resolved...Then BAM - too late...drawn in again...

WHY STICKING with MB for life is a nessessity - that could be myrta - not now - but 5 years from now, that could be me??? I'd be stupid to think I am above all this...I was stupid enough to think it BEFORE my affair and look what happened.

It's why I think my changes are a life long process...I dont think I will hit a point where I say - look I am done...I am perfect...cause ya know what - only God is perfect.

So I keep asking God to change and guide me and trust Him to keep me on track...i think he sent me to MB to HELP me do that

Dorry (and others), you are absolutely right. The changes are a life long process. I believed that part of my life was behind me and that we were fully recovered. The year after d-day I had every sense and every boundary on high alert. It's now nearly 4 years on and I now know they have to be like that for life. I'd taken all the precautions, changed my job and changed all my routines and I was so sure there was no chance I'd ever bump into the OM again. We have lived in the same suburb for 30 years and I saw him 2 times, over all that time before the A.

Anyway, that is all beside the point. I made the right decision this time because I HAVE learned a great deal over the past 3 years.

Still more to learn though and Rob and I agree that IC will help.

Ahuman has it completely right. It's not about the A or the OP, it's about the WS.

YUP!

I did the leaving one's career, moving away in a city like I live in wouldn't really do anything.

Stanley,

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant...."


BTW, to those BSs reading this board.

Above, I was speaking about defense mechanisms, which for me are different than A triggers (in the sense of objects, places or smells that jolt a BS back into the A). I make this distinction becasue triggers are not just something one "pushes into the light' and deals with as if it is THEIR issue. I dont pretend to know what it is like to have to deal with this. No disrespect to you BSs, thats all.

Ahuman:

I am surrounded by triggers. They are all over my neighborhood and back in my home town. The triggers are also in almost in every city I visit because some of these sites are part of huge national chains. I certainly need some delusion to survive---------------no doubt.

Today I took the kids to see Superman and low and behold Superman is about to become an OM in the movie (new version where Lois Lane is with someone else and Superman wants her back).

Luckily Lois Lane (now living with another guy after Superman left her years before) resists the charm of OM (Superman).

Nevertheless, the movie shows that Mrs. Lane is pining for Superman big time and decides to stay with her man because he is a so-called good guy.

Last week I went tom see Click and the same old thing of adultery.

My wife and I live 2500 miles away from OM.

Tomorrow my wife will fly by herself to see her mom back home due to sudden illness. OM is just a couple of miles away and frequently visits my mom in law hoping that perhaps on that given week my wife will be visiting.

OM has become a good friend of the family and is adored by all due to his incredible charm and smooth talk. OM successfully cultivated this friendship after d-day------------There was no friendship before d-day. Over the 24 months following d-day OM has methodically become a friend of my wife’s mother. OM charms my wife’s mother and she is crazy about him----------OM tends to visit unexpectedly.

My wife’s mom is an octogenarian and very ill, she does not have a clue why OM is so friendly to her.

I have managed to always take time off from work to accompany my wife when she flies home,. However, this time it is impossible for me to do so.

Maybe that is why I sound somewhat pessimistic.

I agree entirely with this thinking... but yet...



I also understand and agree that thinking and intellectualizing one thought is far different than feeling it. It sounds like you are scared (pessimistic) of what might happen. You say that there is nothing to lose, yet it is a huge concern nonetheless. I have made so many statements over the past year... "I forgive you", "I don't hurt when I think about it anymore", "I trust you"... etc... all of them true at the time when I say it... but as soon as the sich changes slightly or I am in a different frame of mind, these statements don't always ring true.



I realize this is YHO, Stanley, but my thoughts on this are very different. In what way can we measure the person? I agree that the choice to have an A is a vastly inferior choice to someone who does not... but in each person there are qualities that are inferior and superior... in each person's lifetime, there are choices made that are inferior. My W chose to have an A... I made "equally" poor choices (non-affair choices) prior to and after her A which damaged our R and my life. I am now using these and her choices as building blocks to a better life for myself and hopefully for us as a couple.

The OM in our sich... more money, outgoing, better-looking??? (very subjective), drove fancy cars, appeared very confident...and cocky, his kids were nearly 20 (less responsibility)... lots to attract my W. Is he superior or inferior? I'm loyal, giving, loving, musical, romantic, HUMBLE... etc... all great things, but not enough to keep the attraction of my W... but reasons for her to choose to stay with me when faced with the decision of her life.



Mrs. W... I can't remember if your FOM was married... but when referring to an OP, doesn't that also include the WS or FWS? If this is correct, I would give you a lot more credit than you are giving yourself. We all have missing ingredients to perfection. At some point in time, these missing ingredients leave us vulnerable to temptation of one form or another. I agree that an A is a huge betrayal to your spouse, but I would suggest that it is an even larger betrayal to yourself... and that is what falling prey to any form of temptation is... whether it is becoming an alchoholic, drug addict, obesity, pornography, or even "just" losing your temper and spanking your kids in anger. There are superior and inferior choices... but not superior or inferior people. The OM has some things your H doesn't and vice-versa. I tried to be, but realize now, that I will never be all things to my W.
It is learning to be content, satisfied and love what we have.



The act of protecting your M is not just about NC from the OP. In my sich, my W had an EA with a man 6 yrs ago... my protection was to smother her with affection and attention... thinking I could "buy" her love. She had a PA with a different man 5 yrs later. I believe we all agree that an A is primarily due to weaknesses in the FWS which need to be addressed. The OP is just one danger... it is an easier place to fall as the FWS has already had "great" feelings or experiences with the OP and during a time of huge temptation and weakness... those great feelings have a strong pull. But in many cases, there is also the terrible feelings of hurt and pain following the A which may help balance out the tug of temptation during a vulnerable time.

I would suggest that, if areas of weakness in a person are not addressed and a marriage not protected, then the risk of an A with a new person who provides the right EN's for the FWS might be a greater risk, as the memory of the withdrawal and recovery from that particular OP is not attached with the new OP. Even if one never sees the OP again, the changes must become a lifelong process, or the FWS is still vulnerable to a repeat A... with someone new.

Shaden

Shaden:

I guess credentials of OM and BH become moot at some point. What may be perceived as inferior by many may very well be the perfect fit for the WW at that moment in time. The perfect fit is also influenced by the background of the extramarital relationship (more removed from reality) and the type of affair.

A woman that craves conversation and admiration my find the perfect fit in OM if she is not having an exit affair. In other words OM is only covering one or two ENs and the rest are covered by the BH at home. If the same WW is having an exit affair then the overall status of OM and his credentials may play a much bigger role.

Despite different credentials OM always has an advantage in the issue of the NEW versus the OLD. There is an old saying that a man married to the most beautiful woman in the world can get bored with after 5-10 years whereas a NEW much less attractive woman can suddenly become more exciting.

I must rephrase my point regarding best case scenario to recover from an affair. The biggest factor may be whether the WW was having an exit affair or whether she was “eating cake” with no plans to end the marriage. The “cake eaters”-------by definition never plan to leave the marriage and generally get rid of OM on d-day.

One could also say that when the WW wants an exit affair the marriage is in worse condition or that she has found an OM that is a better fit both in the fantasy world as well as in the reality of daylight.

Regarding trust:

No point in not trusting --------------however, this is not the same blind trust of yesterday. That is OK because Harley does not think blind trust is a good idea.

There also comes a time in recovery where fear of infidelity is imperceptible and a recurrence of affair behavior simply becomes a fact that one uses to decide if the marriage is viable at that point. In other words, before the affair there was a wide threshold for divorce. Post affair the threshold becomes very thin.

Regarding Mrs. W’s statement about the OM. If she says OM is the lesser man for having the affair then she must also admit that she had a similar behavior in the relationship. Shortly after d-day I said some nasty things about OM that my wife took personally because she had behaved in the same manner as OM.

Stan-ley,

Regarding a quote from which you quoted me;


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Falling in love within an affair is no different than falling in love while not having an affair. However, the love feelings are stronger within an affair because the obsessive component is much higher.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Although I still stand by my post, I don't agree with your statement here. For one, I don't believe anyone falls in love with "the affair." And I believe falling in love with an OP while married, is WAY different than falling in love with someone when you are single. The difference is this - when you fall in love with an OP while married, it is strictly fantasy. True, it is real at the time, and you expose your heart freely, only to find out that later, it was a very bad dream. When falling in love as a single person, you don't have the fantasy to deal with, you are able (hopefully!) to see things for what they truely are or aren't, you don't put yourself into a constant lie.

My "married-love" analogy goes like this. When you're car shopping, you do a lot of research on the car(s) that interest you the most. You have specific criteria you expect in a vehicle. You want only the best. You consider what gas mileage the vehicle gets. If you have children, or are thinking about having them, you think about things like side air bags and the crash-test rating of the vehicle. You sweat and twist your hands when you look at the price tag. This is an investment that you hope will last a long time (or at least until you get it paid off!). After you get the vehicle of your dreams, you take such excellent care of it, washing it every week, waxing it, cleaning the inside until there isn't a pebble to be found. You are proud of your investment and do what it takes to keep it in tip-top shape.

Now for my "affair-love" analogy. The vehicle you researched so hard on, took such good care of, has somehow fallen apart. Somewhere down the line, you stopped washing it every week, and you can't remember the last time you waxed it. The inside looks like hurricane Katrina just hit. Oil change? Don't you get one every 9,000 miles? Hmmm, can't remember, don't really care to. Then, one day, when you think you'll go insane if you have to look at this piece of crap vehicle one more day, you spot the dream machine. I mean, this baby makes you feel alive, new, super-human, special. This time, you tell yourself, this time it is the real thing. This time you PROMISE to keep the vehicle clean, waxed, oil changed, tires rotated, etc. THIS TIME everything is going to be perfect, forever.

I think we all know what happens to the second vehicle. It too starts showing wear and tear. We begin to neglect it, just like our first love. It isn't any better than the first vehicle, in fact, you wish you'd never traded that first beauty off. It had everything, nice and roomy, comfortable, awesome rims, great gas mileage, side air bags, the works. The second vehicle was always too small, not that comfortable, and has the worst crash-test rating ever!! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU BOUGHT (INTO) THIS PIECE OF CRAP?!!

I could go on, but I need to get things ready for my six-year-old's 7th b-day party. Ya'll take care!!


KJ

Shaden...

FOM was single...But Shaden, it is certainly not lost on me how very emotionally and mentally "inferior" that I was during the time that I made the choice to have the affair. I have become much healthier today. My self esteem is at a much higher level. I am a much better version of myself, and I continue to do the internal inventory for betterment today...Mr. W and I have often speculated that if FOM had been at a healthier place in his life, had been financially successful, etc. that he may never have allowed himself to become an OM at all.

You are right about it being a great betrayal to yourself, and it is one that becomes a part of your life story for always. I hate that. I expected more of myself than that. It certainly is NOT the woman that I aspired to become. But I can't change it, as much as I wish I could, it is mine to own for eternity. I do not brutally punish myself for it daily, that would serve no one. Instead, I am now focused on what I can do to change what in me caused me to get to the place that I did. We now focus on all aspects of us. We don't always get everything perfect, but the difference is now we are concious of our mistakes, and we talk about them. We no longer just allow things to pass that bother us, which would allow resentment to fester, instead we talk and talk and draw closer together in doing that. We make a point to tell the other when we are really happy about something that the other did. We no longer take the little things for granted. We are truly grateful to be a family.

To be honest Shaden, (and NO Stanley, I'm not just saying this for Mr. W!) there truly isn't one single thing that my FOM had that Mr. W does not. Looks-very similar, Education-OM- B.S., Mr. W- B.S., J.D, LL.M., OM-RACIST, Mr. W-ABSOLUTELY NOT a RACIST, OM-terrible sense of humor, Mr. W-HILARIOUS, OM-made less than 40K/yr, Mr. W-FAR above that, OM-Zero Respect for Women, Mr. W-Perhaps respects female opinion more than male...and I could go on and on...I know, what in the H E L L was I thinking? Wow, clearly, I wasn't, but some of why I allowed myself to even get on the slippery slope in the first place, had to do with my own insecurity and a desire to go back to childhood-for me, what better way to do that than with my old hs/college boyfriend? Key, I think, was that FOM was VERY insecure and was a master at stroking egos because he needed his stroked in return-it was not something that he did for me out of love, but something he did to ellicit what he wanted/needed in return. Now for Mr. W to do that for me, it is a very concious decision, and THAT is huge in showing me how much he loves me...it does not come naturally for him, as it is not one of his needs, but he does that FOR me-for us, which speaks volumes to me. Again, we are concious of each other in all aspects of life now...A REALLY BIG DEAL FOR US...




Stanley...

I remember those feelings too. I had them when I would I read what was being said by many BSes here at MB. I knew that I was just as culpable as OM, to be honest, I have always felt more so. After all, I was married and he was single; my betrayal has always seemed greater to me. Perhaps this is pompous, but I am a far much more intelligent person than my FOM so I should have known better, should have adhered to the high standards that I had set for myself, honestly, my saying that I am more intelligent is not bragging, it is just simply a demonstratable fact. That is in no way letting him off the hook, but I am not responsible for his choices, his repentance or anything about him. Again, becoming an infidel was NEVER what I aspired to be. I was one of the people in this world that had said many times that I would NEVER EVER be unfaithful. It is clear that I let many people down, none more so than myself. I did not give due to the power of temptation and my own very human weakness to it.

And in my affair, there were many small choices that I made prior to taking the "big leap" into full blown infidelity that at the time I did not see, which made that big leap seem quite natural-not so big at all. I read that theory elsewhere yesterday, and it is so very true, it is why you hear many WSes say "it just happened", because that is how it feels. Saying something to that effect, fails to recognize all the small choices that you made along the way that allowed you to get in deeper and deeper. Each time that the stakes are raised in an affair, there were choices or a movement of boundaries involved. I think it speaks very much to someone that had problems with setting boundaries all along.

Stanley, I obviously had no idea what was going on in your life, in regards to your wife going to visit her mom and FOM's proximity in that situation. I can most definitely see that as a nerve racking experience. I sincerely hope that your wife is doing everything to make herself even more transparent to you during her trip. I know that you are a strong man that does not need nor want my pity, and that is in no way what I am intending for you to take from my even mentioning it. What you do have is my understanding and prayers that all goes well on that front.


KariJean, my fellow "stoopid" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...

On a lighter, sillier note, of course: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well then girl, you need to get yourself a BMW...They don't need an oil change until AFTER 10,000 miles, and they TELL you exactly when it's time...LOL...Works for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Mrs. W:

You are like my wife. She knew OM in HS, however, unlike you she never had any kind of relationship with OM other than that of a distant classmate. The concept that they could be an item in HS was highly improbable---if not impossible.

I don't like to denigrate OM anymore because I gain nothing from doing that, but the description you gave regarding your OM fits quite well.

What we can learn from this is that within an affair some women find men that are there for a very specific purpose. The attraction almost always has to do with the EN of admiration. In this instance the WW does not plan to have children with OM so intellect and looks are moot. In addition, if this is not an exit affair education and ability to provide for the family do not matter at all. If the relationship is mostly long distance physical appearance may not be that much of an issue as the communication is mostly done thru the phone and the Internet.

Mrs. W, I suspect that there are people susceptible to affairs and there are others that will never have an affair despite a bad marriage or unmet ENs. One may think this has to do with morality, but this is not always the case. We all know morally upright people that have affairs and are straight as an arrow in everything else.

I suspect the culprit is low self-esteem. The need to have an external force elevate the esteem is so high that the fog (or rationalization) comes in handy.

Mrs. W--------your posts are getting shorter and more interesting. Is Mr. W editing?

Just teasing you! I bet you are the boss in you household.

Obviously no one gives a 5hit about my vehicle analogy!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do want to add one more thing (God help me, I pray my posts don't start getting as long as Mrs. Dubbya's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

Once you go back to that "first vehicle," your "second vehicle" is nothing to look at, nothing to recall with ANY emotion - not love, not hate, nothing. Afterall, it was just a vehicle. What was cool about it, was the way it made you FEEL. What it did for your self-esteem, your ego. But the "first vehicle" once did the same for you, and you had A LOT more time, energy and loving care invested into your "first vehicle."

Okay, so there's one HUGE flaw in my analogy - vehicles don't last forever, but a marriage can.

As for me, I'm going back to my Mazda, 'cuz I don't need a BMW (or is that BMDubbya?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />)

Done now.

KJ

I was just about to reply to the analogy post and tell you it was brilliant, but I had to read the rest of the thread first.