Stanley, you seem to be implying that what has come to light here regarding your situation is not pertinent to the thread's original intent...This new information is highly relevant actually, because it explains very clearly why you make such blanket generalizations about FWWs-You believe that all FWWs are like Myrta-UNTRUE...What remains curious, however, is that your advice differs greatly from the actions that you take where you own situation is concerned...I would seriously like to understand that...Is it because you believe that you have "special circumstances" or is it because you are on some kind of kamikaze mission with your marriage? I would like for you to explain why you aren't following Dr. Harley's narrowly defined path yourself.

For the purpose of refocusing, here are the two original quotes(in blue), by you, that were pulled from Suzet's thread, by me. These two quotes were the inspiration for the birth of this thread. Though scarce in words, the quotes speak volumes through their cynical tone and sweeping generalization. For me, much about the author was communicated, despite the brevity...I heard more than you were saying Stanley, and I remember that you scoffed at that notion early in this thread...You may still scoff, but I am telling you with sincerity that had I have not "heard" more than the words you typed, I would not have begun this thread at all...Here are your words and the discussion of them...


Ok Stanley, that is what you said about Suzet...Now take a look at what you've said about your situation...


-OK, in Suzet's situation, you say that you can't POJA the final betrayal of OM, yet you and your wife have done EXACTLY that...To expose Myrta's OM would be the death knell in the affair's coffin...the FINAL BETRAYAL, if you will...I don't get it Stanley...

I know what your arguments will be, here they are...


First, I would argue that no doctor, can make a proper diagnosis without seeing the patient themselves. Further, I would also say that your MC got a very skewed description of this OM from Myrta, and even from yourself. Quite obviously, objectivity would be a problem for both of you. Not to mention that your descriptions of OM to the MC were ones of a man involved in an affair...single or not, your OM was still involved in an extra marital affair and that is the stuff that crazy is made of! So Stanley, I'm not even convinced that your OM has a diagnosable mental disorder.

Even if he does have a mental illness, that is all the better for the two of you actually...BECAUSE THEN, ANY BLACKMAIL EXPOSURE BY HIM COULD EASILY BE EXPLAINED AWAY BASED UPON HIS MENTAL HEALTH...I'm sorry, but that really does seem like a no brainer...It certainly appears that you believe that this OM is holding your marriage hostage, and you are willing to use your marriage as ransom...What evidence do you have of OM's threats of exposure, btw? Let's be sure those are truly threats and not just things that have been fabricated to induce your silence...Where's the smoking gun? IF, OM really has threatened exposure well then, that's truly WONDERFUL, because you've been around MB long enough to KNOW that you NEVER threaten exposure...WHY? Because Forewarned is Forearmed...Your arensal is stocked, all you have to do is let all of his exposure targets know what this nutbag has threatened and how ridiculous his assertations are...Who will the family believe, some random nutbag (friend of the family or not) or a united front presented by you and your wife? Um DUH!!! Now I personally don't believe in keeping the infidelity secret, but I won't argue that with you right now...BUT STANLEY, REMOVE THIS COWARDICE BULLY FROM YOUR MARITAL EQUATION-DISARM HIM-TAKE AWAY HIS POWER!!! Stanley, this guy is a TERRORIST if indeed he is blackmailing you...Think about how the U.S. deals with terrorist/hostage situations...follow their lead...This OM only has power over you if you give it to him...


Ok, again, if OM is really blackmailing you and you need an "out", I explained that for you...However, in the event that your children actually did find out what happened (which they won't because I KNOW you guys aren't gonna tell-whatever)...But if by some remote chance they did find out, Stanley your above statement is VERY HISTRIONIC (lol that YOU would use that term to describe me-takes one to know one, huh?)

Your children would NOT be destroyed upon learning that their mother is a human being that made a very poor choice, but then did the right thing and honored her commitment to their father...because she loved him, because she realized she messed up BIGTIME, because again, she was HUMAN...What your children would learn was how very much their parents loved each other...What they would learn is that marriage is REALLY for better or for worse...What they would learn (I'll bet they already suspect this) is that their parents aren't perfect...There are MANY valuable lessons that your children could and would actually learn from knowing, but if you would rather present them with a false image of a perfect marriage, in a world where they are VERY likely to experience infidelity firsthand, then, of course, that is up to you...


Myrta, of course, should have thought of that when she chose to have an affair. Big girl mistakes come with big girl consequences... I'm not telling you to go expose after the fact, to make her suffer consequences, but OM is apparently pushing the envelope here and in doing so is making exposure necessary for the two of you to follow the very narrow MB recovery path...


Stanley, you remind me of my mom in stating the above...My father has Bipolar Disorder and a very serious heart condition...Over the years, she has refused to have him involuntarily commited for fear that doing so would trigger a heart attack...At what point must you consider the greater good Stanley? Again, you've got your "out" by cutting OM off at the knees by exposing his threatened exposure...He has EMAILS you say...BIG DEAL...Emails are EASILY edited, certainly not out of the range of what a crazy person would do-very believable-ESPECIALLY where an elderly woman is concerned...My own mother is 60, works with a computer everyday, and I promise you that she would completely buy the "doctored email" story...OM is PSYCHOTIC, right? Because of my dad, I've had to deal with the mental health system and the stigma that people place on the mentally ill for years, trust me, people are willing to believe anything about someone labeled as "crazy"-Again, it would be your and Myrta's word against his- YOU PRESENT A UNITED FRONT-...It would easily work and then you would all be free of him...


Again, the "out" I've outlined for you allows you to "hold on" to this sense of pride that you are so concerned about...By the way, exposure or not, that is an issue that you VERY MUCH need to work through...It will hinder your personal recovery which will necessarily hinder your marital recovery...We can discuss that more if you'd like...

Stanley, what would be interesting would be Myrta's willingness towards disarming OM, by exposing his blackmail scheme and outing him as a looney tune...I can't help but believe that OM's mental health has been played to the hilt to you by Myrta, to keep you hushed...I would be very interested to hear her response to that a suggestion...






Stanley, your above quote implies that you understand the concept of NC-I agree with you, NO CONTACT is imperative because of the nature of affairs...Do you also realize that Myrta's recent phone call with OM is CONTACT...You are failing to recognize that apparently...You also aren't taking into consideration the addictive properties of an affair and how breaking NO CONTACT can mean the addiction comes back full force...For a coke addict, is one small "bump" okay? That phone call was a "bump" for Myrta...saying it wasn't doesn't make it less true...

Stanley, I now understand your stance regarding FWWs...You project Myrta's behavior onto ALL FWWs, and the recent events on MB have helped to reinforce those feelings...What those situations, and now YOURS have in common, is their FAILURE TO ADHERE TO NO CONTACT...So, from now on when making blanket generalizations, please extend such only to those who have unwisely chosen NOT to stick to the very narrow MB path, only then will your statements be factual...


Stanley, you make a lot of bold statements about the state of your marriage and how OM is not a threat...None of those statements consider the addiction or NO CONTACT...Make no mistake about it, when there is contact, there is a very real threat to your marriage...

Here are a few of the things that you have said...




Stanley, the logic simply does not follow when you then consider her phone CONTACT with OM...The fact that she took the phone call at all is mind boggling, but the contents (that were even shared) are even further proof that things are NOT what they should be...Again, I believe that your "scorned lover" interpretations were dead on...


Stanley, courage is in the doing...What are you going to do?

Mrs. W

***EDITED to ADD...Stanley, I would certainly hope that your "scorned lover" interpretation understands fully that Myrta wanted OM to make those inferences...You do get that, right?

Stanley,



Atta boy Stanley, way to acknowledge it when you have a change in opinion. I applaud you for this, and hope you sincerely believe this, from here on out. BTW, "dislike" is how I would describe my feelings for my OM, but I know other FWW's who'd use a much stronger word!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think you'd agree, if one dislikes someone, it's pretty tough to feel any positive emotional connection. Agree?!

KJ

Both my adult children were told by my H about the A about 3 days after d-day. I am pleased they know - I think family secrets are destructive and have a way of surfacing, perhaps at a funeral, perhaps by a loose word from someone. I didn't want them to never know what our marriage had been through and survived. They respect their father greatly, and are very happy we survived this.

It was difficult at first, but my ongoing and very close relationship with my kids is one of the joys of my life.

Both our families and friends know everything and have offered nothing but support to both of us.

Todd: It cannot happen even if she still has minimal residual fuzzy feelings. This is one of those cases where the WW was truly in love with the affair and not the OM. If there was a need for a textbook case to explain this concept it would be Myrta.





I am not the only one that believes in the residual lovey dovey theory. Obviously, the expert Dr Harley is a firm believer and hence he advices NC for life.




It has been Kamikaze from day one. Sure, I tried to protect my marriage as much as I could, but it all hinges on Myrta’s willingness to make this work. I told her from day one I would get OM for her if she wants him--------sounds kamikaze but that is probably related to my own foolish pride.





I am sure that I probably stated in the thread that I usually do not favor exposure unless the BS wants to kill the affair with daylight. IMHO, that is a valid excuse for someone that is trying to stop an affair beyond d-day. I would recommend this even though I would never exposed my own. If Myrta had stayed in the affair I would have ended the marriage. This is my false pride speaking------I freely admit that.

In the case of Suzet she stated love feelings for OM and how she was back in withdrawal. IN addition, OM is married and Suzet works with OM. Within this context exposure is justified. If I was Suzet’s H my first reaction would be to end the marriage. After all they are young and there are no children. If the latter is not an option then exposure may be a good alternative because OM is married and because Suzet was in love.

In my case Myrta is not in love with OM and there is no wife on the other side. The exposure would be aimed at Myrta’s family so they can slam the door next time OM knocks. Otherwise, OM is 2500 miles away.

IN a sense if OM exposes then the ball game is over. That would be great, but something within me tells me to keep this private and to avoid the pain to my children and to my own mother who thinks Myrta is the best wife in the world (even though initially she was opposed to my wedding).





Mrs. W I said what Dr Harley says------no more----no less.





There is a difference:

My wife is not in love with OM and there is zero% chance of a recurrence. There is no need to drive another nail in the coffin. IN fact OM drove the last nail with his bizarre behavior. OM is doing a great job is getting Myrta completely disenchanted. In fact, maybe Myrta will be the very 1st FWW in the world to feel nothing for OM, not even 0.0000000000000000001%. Who knows maybe you will be right up there with her. Sarcasm------can you tell?





You may be correct. However, I still say OM is not playing with a full deck.




Myrta already explained to her family that OM may be mental and that he has developed an obsession with her that grew out of a harmless meeting between two people that knew each other in junior high and in HS. BTW, unlike you-------Myrta never had any relationship with OM in her youth.





On d-day my wife asked OM over and over to keep the affair a secret. She told OM she had to shield the children. OM has an idea of how important this is. OM also knows he can show up at Myrta’s home and that we will remain silent about it. This probably gives him some satisfaction-------I will not deny that.




I am sure they would survive. But as of now I am simply choosing the lesser of two evils. Tolerating OM as a nuisance is far better than the discovery. The worst that could happen is that OM outs Myrta. There is no other damage OM can cause to the marriage.





Discovery would be very stressful Mrs. W. SOme of my kids may even encourage me to leave the marriage. My kids see infidelity in the same light I do. My entire family would certainly pressure me to leave my wife. Myrta’s family would be more understanding. Dealing with them would take months as well as the agony and rehashing an affair that is rapidly getting quite old.




Until recently it was the opposite. I carried the torch of OM’s mental illness whereas my wife defended OM’s mental status. For a long time she refused the concept that OM could be a low-life.




Call me Kamikaze again, but if Myrta fails again then I will have my answer and all the work I did was in vain. I will only endure ONE recovery. I do not plan to have many false recoveries-----I won’t. If all it takes is one phone call from OM to demolish everything I have done then I am outa here.





It has mostly been the other way around. I have ascribed Myrta some of the behaviors I have seen on MB.




I agree, but on some instances OM can precipitate contact with the most diligent FWW. As I said-----if all it takes is a phone call then it is not worth it---------I am a goner.

BTW, my wife agrees with me. She told me that I should leave if she has a relapse.



Yes, it is the addiction-------I get it. However, she is trying to appease OM due to reasons stated above. I wanted a HARSH NO, but she handled it differently. I guess she wanted to save face with OM. Most FWWs want that.




Mrs W, there is no doubt about it. I am sure many people like the idea of someone pining for them. At some level Myrta enjoyed listening to OM. However, I am not worried. BTW, I cannot police Myrta’s thoughts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Stanley, the fact that my H and I are young and don’t have any children doesn’t make our M less bonding or less important to us… Apart from my EA, we had been through a lot together in our almost 10 year M (infertility, unemployment, hanging court case, family problems, I was diagnosed and treated for mental disorders - depression, anxiety & OCD - and had to work through sexual and physical abuse issues from my childhood, confronted the abusers etc.). Through all of this H and I have stayed and stood together and supported each other and because of this we are probably closer and share a much stronger bond than most “old married” couples with children… Therefore, don't be deceived by superficial things like “still young” and “no children”...

Stan wrote:



.... and I 100% believe this

Myrta does drama

and drama is available in abundance with this OM hovering over her family

..... this requirement for pot-stirring-is her addiction ... not this particular OM .... who is an insignificant bug in her heart

keeping the drama alive is the issue, IMHO

Pep

Suzet:

I believe divorce should be an option in a failed recovery. Otherwise, the sky is the limit. Maybe some folks do it after 3-4 failed recoveries.

Can you tell me why you are so vulnerable to OM?

Pep:

I sometimes feel folks in recovery can get addicted to the drama. Maybe we are afraid to return to a calm tension free marriage. However, the drama could be much greater with discovery-----so I really don't know.

In any event this OM is showing his true colors. Myrta is now a believer.

and Myrta is showing her true colors as well

I guess I still have some deep settled self-esteem issues from my past – an unconscious need for acceptance, approval and validation and in an unhealthy way, OM helped to provide that for me (also with the recent e-mails). I think this is the main reason why I became vulnerable and weak when I received his e-mails and stupidly responded on it. As I’ve said on my thread, it seems I still have internal issues I need to address. And the fact that the OM and EA is like an "addiction" adds to this. However, I don't feel vulnerable to the OM; addictive to him or "in love" with him now, but I know Satan is very clever and will try to "attack" me again when he gets the gap (if you understand what I mean). This is why I've said I take NC very seriously this time and will not allow sporadic or limited e-mail ever again (like I did before and which have lead to the recent massive e-mail exchanges).

I take NC very seriously this time

Don't kid yourself Suzet*. If you were serious you'd expose to get an NC police ally in OMs life. But you won't. So it snot important to you. Maybe you want OM to still feel good about you ? I dunno. You sure ain't serious about NC. Don;t say otherwise. 'cos its bull IMO. What you care is what you DO not what you SAY.

pep:

You love stingers!

A good stinger is done in context.


Can you explain the meaning and the context of your stinger?

Suzet:

I understand the low self-esteem issue. When we have it---we need external validation.

I suspect your H is not working hard in meeting your EN of admiration. How is he doing?

I also believe that there is always a little more than just the issue of low self-esteem. Some personalities and phenotypes may be attractive to some people (more so than others).

I will also admit that there are women that have such a strong need for admiration that will have the affair with whomever can meet that EN, whether female, male, thin, fat, young, or old, single, married, ect. I personally know of one person with those traits and the need for admiration over-rides everything.

What do you think?

OM's true colors have ZERO to do with Myrta's decisions

Myrta's moral compass is relevant to your marriage .... not OM's flaws

... if Myrta rejects OM based on his flaws and NOT based on her intrinsic value of HER fidelity in marriage ...

then she remains vulnerable when a less flawed man propositions her

and that would be her true colors ... available if/when "better" comes along

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep

.... and you perpetuate this myth when you insist on doing OM's autopsy instead of Myrta's

Pep:

You make excellent points. At the end of the day the affair has to do with the moral compass of the wayward spouse------you are preaching to the choir.

OP can be a near deity or lower than whale $hit in the bottom of the ocean-----it really does not matter.

You must also understand that some of us need a punching bag and we relish the discovery of flaws in the OM. Nothing more than a mechanism of defense to treat our symptoms post d-day. I guess some of us develop a case of low self-esteem.

I also believe that the moral compass of a person is established very early on in life and we tend to have the same proclivities to do good or bad for a lifetime.



Certainly some affairs are the result of a spouse that treats the other like crap. In the so-called exit affair there is the perception that the OP is the better person. But, in the end of the day it all goes back to the moral compass-----you are right.

The moral compass is not easily changed. The only thing one can do is to meet ENs and hope for the best.

I suspect Stan .....

you have always treated your wife with caution knowing she has a short fuse

Pep:



I treat her the best I can. However, is not a short fuse. It is a mechanism of defense to deal with low self-esteem.

Having developed some low self-esteem post d-day I can tell you it is no picnic going thru life with low self-esteem.


BTW, do you know anyone that does not have a degree of low self-esteem?

I do not claim low self esteem

I see no value in that

particularly when it is used as an excuse to hurt others

Pep:

You are on your high horse.

If you never had low self-esteem you are a lucky woman.

However, in the end it all comes down to values----------I agree (preaching to the choir).