Stan ... I did not say I NEVER had low self esteem ... I said I do not claim low self esteem

in particular when "low self esteem" is the stated root of poor choices ... I think the converse is true ~~~> poor choices cause low self esteem .... NOT the other way around

what do you mean "high horse" ? Are you trying to put me down, or is there a different meaning I do not understand?

Those with low self-esteem are sometimes threatened by someone that preaches from higher moral ground.

Yep, poor choices certainly do not help. However, there seems to be more to the issue. We all know poor achievers with great self-esteem and high achievers with poor self-esteem. It is a complex issue.

If we follow your theory then one could conclude that Suzet has an evil trait rather than low self-esteem as to why she causes harm to her marriage. It is more complex that that.

What do you think?

I am completely lost Stan ...

do you want to drop this or continue?

Stanley & Pep,

Interesting insight regarding low self-esteem. IMO, low self-esteem and depression often (if not always) go hand-in-hand. One of you mentioned something about people on different moral high grounds having esteem issues. Well, I'd say most Americans believe President Abraham Lincoln was a man who stood on pretty high moral ground. He once said,

"I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would be not one cheerful face on earth." Old Abe suffered from depression, a clinical fact. Just thought this was interesting enough to pass on....

KJ

Stanley,

Is this truly what you believe about Myrta and other FWSs?

Mrs. W

My syntax is strange because I translate as I write (no time to edit).

You may go on. Where did I lose you?

Is Myrta reading here?

Why isn't she posting and trying to find answers to these questions?

Yes, those with the proclivity to get in trouble need to be more vigilant about themselves.

When these folks do well in life they are to be admired because their success was much harder to achieve when compared to those that are natural goody-two-shoes.

I know you made the question because you have something else in mind. What is it?

She is visiting her mom. Many elderly don't have computers. My mom has no use for a computer----she is in her late 80s.

I am sure she will post when she comes back.

KJ:

Depressed folks may have low self-esteem---I agree.

However, those that appear extremely bubbly and happy may also have low self-esteem. However, it is difficult to be complately happy with low self-esteem---no doubt.
So what comes 1st the ddepression or the low self-esteem?

How about VERY early in life....like conception. It's called humanity and you are no more or no less human than your wife unless you are submitting you are some moral machine that NEVER behaves immorally.

Is that you, my Lord??? (no offense, sarcasm - you do get that don't you)

I submit that I firmly believe Mrs. W is no more immoral TODAY than I, she is no more at risk of behaving immorally TODAY than I. She made a big mistake last year but WE have got through it and over it and are better because of it. Her character is not in question. Her confidence and self-esteem are remaining issues that WE are working on TOGETHER but those issues pre-date the affair and no longer continue at pre-affair levels. She is building herself up, with my assistance, empathy, care and support. She is a part of me after all.

We do NC because that is the program. OM is irrelevant, otherwise. I don't fear him nor am I concerned my wife has latent "feelings" or "loyalty" to him. He is not a back-up plan for Mrs. W in the event something should happen to me and he, individually, is no longer a "person" in our lives. He has become an "it" ....merely "OM". I don't wish him dead or maimed. I hope he finds contentment in his life. I do wish he had apologized directly to me in response to the email I sent him above but I have no need or desire to request it. I forgave him nonetheless and released it as he is/was, after all, just as human as my wife.

Mr. Wondering

Stanley,



Oh yeah, this I know first-hand! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



I'd say this differs for everyone. In my case, I believe they came as a package deal. Unfortunately, my depression wasn't treated for a long time, and my low self-esteem is still a huge problem. Interesting that my depression is being managed, yet I still have low self-esteem issues. Maybe they aren't as closely tied as I tend to believe.

KJ

Stanley... don't know if it would be the same with your sich...

Not only did the OMW thank me for exposing to her, but so did the OM. He was caught in a self-defeating situation, probably in a MLF, and he did not have enough nerve to tell his own W. He has two great kids both past high school but living at home. He didn't want to lose his family, but feared it would be the end if he told his W. They are still struggling but working together to make it work like my FWW and I are.

My exposure forced him to face the truth and get the help they needed. I believe they will make it through.

Shaden

Mr Wondering:

There is no right and wrong. In fact—ALL MORALITY is relative.

I did not claim moral superiority in my argument------however, I implied that perhaps Pep was preaching from the Evangelical Pulpit.

The record shows that some folks will not cheat despite a zillion unmet ENs and very poor treatment by the spouse. OTOH, others will cheat within the context of a happy marriage.

There are differences-----this is likely a multifactorial problem.

I once saw a child die with chicken pox. The death was prompt, a tragedy. I suspect this kid was as healthy as any other child, but he had a tiny hole in his immune system. The boy had no ability whatsoever to defend himself against the virus. I use this analogy to tell you that the most upright moral person in the planet can have a hole somewhere in his morality DNA-like code.

You mentioned low self-esteem issues with Mrs. Wondering. I believe this is the key to whether we act in an upright manner or not.

By definition low self-esteem implies a discrepancy between the inner self and the outer shell. Whenever there is a discrepancy there is tension and instability. It is very difficult to put up a façade 24/7. Sooner or later there is a need to look for outside help to bring stability to the system. By now we know that no one can raise the self-esteem of another person-----it does not work that way. However, many philanderers try and then try some more.

I also believe that the drive for this admiration may over-ride some safety switches and compromises are made. Many with low self-esteem lack self-respect------a necessary ingredient to betray an innocent bystander.

KJ:

Just be yourself! Make sure there is no difference between what is inside and your outer shell.

Do the right thing every time------ and slowly over a long period of time your self-esteem will get better.

There was discussion above about NC.

NC is absolutely necessary for a FWS to gain perspective on the situation. To observe there must be distance.

So long as OM exists in any circumstances of FWW's life, FWW is a participant. A participant cannot observe.

Stanley,

You're funny. If it were that simple honey, I'd be the world's most confident FWW!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm a work in progress, it'll come.

Thanks for the encouragement though, that never hurts!!

KJ

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />



I am Roman Catholic ... which is located a pretty far distance from an Evangelical pulpit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Stan ... I guess when the discussion got a little too close to the bone you decided to try and cut me down ....

It's OK , I completely understand


I am certainly not your cup of tea....

I do wish you and your wife well & God's speed

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Pep

There is no right and wrong. In fact—ALL MORALITY is relative.

I completely disagree. we've discussed this in the past however.

Action--reaction.

Cause-effect.

Good behavior--increased probability of good outcome.

Bad behavior--increased probabiity of bad outcome.

Yeah, its all relative...relative to the right decisions and the wrong ones.