My response is your own words to MrW: "By the way-don't think that I don't notice how you are skipping over portions of my posts that you can't "argue" with-LOL!"

That is exactly what you are doing. ONCE AGAIN. You continue to prove my points with every post, by accusing others of doing exactly what you do, so it is understandable that you would try to avoid them at all costs.

This further reinforces what you asserted against sbmml: "Often the most abusive women are the first to condemn other abusive men." It's real easy to point that finger at others, but very hard to look at the lady in the mirror, isn't it?

You mean "coming up with new names" like this:




Ever notice that when you have one finger pointed at others, you have THREE pointed back at yourself? In your case, apparently, this is most true. Hellooo Mz Kettle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] To avoid being perceived as skipping over any of your so-called insurmountable arguments...I'll go line by line. [/color]



This is from SB's post-->

Post #3053383 - 07/10/06 02:03 AM



This is your interpretation of his statement:

Are you serious? Wow... I had to read that twice ...

[color:"blue"]OBVIOUSLY, TWICE WASN'T ENOUGH. READ IT AGAIN, AGAIN AND AGAIN. Sbmmal is/was no more abusive in his marriage than you or I. However, he looked at the things he did do and thought maybe he'd found the quick fix. As a BH he was/is typically buying into his wife justifications and rationalizations for commiting adultery. He's asking what did I do, what can I do to fix it, where did I go wrong. He (and YOU) are not realizing that his wife's behavior and actions are a weakness inside of her. I know you detest infidelity (as you've repeated over and over) you just can't grasp that Mrs. Sbmmal's actions are NEVER justified. His actions had NOTHING to do with it and your continued harping on it was insensitive, misguided, and hurful (YOUR actions WERE forms of abuse themselves). [/color]




You are on a roll now-LOL!

[color:"blue"]You need a change of view. You are six years into a marriage yourself. A relative newlywed. Your self-professed uncanny ability to perceive others is indicative of a failure to perceive yourself. Mrs.W and I discussed last night how much you sound like her pre-affair. Watching others, looking for "tells" to their thinking, and guarding your own insecurities by modeling upright behaviors. Hiding your bitterness, resentments...instigating Conflict to avoid REAL conflict. Fighting over little things, probably to a boisterous level but never divulging the core of that conflict. You are to quick to jump on rationalizations and justifications. You believe Mr. Sbmmal's actions demonstrate the "ROOT" of the problem he is having and you couldn't be more wrong/mistaken. Mrs. Sbmmal alone is debased right now. She may find redemption and the marriage could be saved but not until she ends her illicit love affair. Then they both can address their own "abusive" behaviors (i.e. lovebusters)and fix the underlying issues in their marriage. [/color]



You say I bashed him, well-I disagree. I asked him the hard questions and it turns out that the answers to those questions indicate that they needed to be asked.

[color:"blue"]His answers to your questions clearly indicated his "abuse" was nothing more than typical lovebusters we all demonstrate in marriage. Your persistence in following that line of questioning was not only abusive but distracting to the really CORE issue...ending the affair. In Plan A he is supposed to think about these issue and focus on fixing himself, but you went a step further and essentially took her side and told him...his abuse caused her infidelity....it did NOT [/color]

I think that this is what vexes you and the others so.

[color:"blue"]You honestly think we are "vexed" because YOU got to the hard questions that we just failed to see??? Like this is some advice competition and we want to knock you down for doing so well. Well, aren't we prideful.

Truly. If you stick around long enough you may just come to realize you were/are wrong. What vexes us is your repeated and continual bashing on this "abuse" issue, an underlying marital issue that Sbmmal (to some extent) and his wife (to a much larger extent) will need to work on in recovery BUT right now it's a back-burner issue. Sbmmal needs to take care of himself, emotionally and physically, do what he can to bust up his wife's insiduous affair (which IS destroying his family), work on preparing himself legally, and process the MB plan(s) to restoring himself [/color]


You and the others should also understand that you are not going to change my mind about this topic by bashing me.

[color:"blue"]You'll either change it or disappear. Foggy thinking doesn't have a long shelf around here. What will it take for you to discover you sound so very vulnerable. You sound like a wayward wife waiting to happen. So much so you had/have us all doubtful that you were/are a "other woman" or "wayward wife" in disguise. Your husband is pursuant to your loose definition is surely "abusive", thus you must only be an mere opportunity away from being a full blown wayward yourself. Can you see that???? [/color]



What's the difference between "truly abusive" and "abusive"?

[color:"blue"]Mrs. Sbmmal is "truly abusive", a wife beater is "truly abusive", Mr. Sbmmal is way, way, way to the right of them on the abusive continium. Probably right along side you and me in that continium. [/color]



Abusers and their victims are also imperfect and human . Do you think otherwise?

[color:"blue"] How does that make you right? How does that justify your contention that Sbmmal's admitted "forms of abuse" cause his wife to bode her time, cheat and eventually file for divorce???[/color]



I feel that his behavior fit perfectly with an abusive, controlling man: You see-abuse within the context of intimate relationships-is a choice, and abusers are capable of making their choices with remarkable calmness and deliberation. They choose their methods and those methods will vary according to the abuser and the situation, but are all the methods are aimed at one thing: control .

[color:"blue"] I can only hope and pray Sbmmal finds such a way with remarkable calmness and deliberation to "control" his wife and extricate her from her illicit and immoral love affair. May he be blessed with such power. [/color]

I believe that SB didn't stand for his loss of control. I think that he tried within the limits of his personality and situation to restore it. Perhaps SB is too intelligent to engage in the behaviors that your stereotypical view of a "truly abusive and controlling man" would.

[color:"blue"] What husband wouldn't like to "control" his wife from sleeping with other men. She's had multiple affairs...I bet he'd love to MAKE her wear a chastity belt.[/color]

My perception is that he hoped that he could maintain control of the situation even as he was clearly losing it. His wife waited until he was deployed-which made it easier for her and harder for him. He tried to get things back to "the way they were" & when he realized that this was no longer an option (the legal paperwork), he reacted with amazing speed and alacrity: calm, cool, and collected-no longer lamenting the "death" of his marriage / the destruction of his family, but moving to "letting go."

[color:"blue"] Oh, now he's letting go is he. This fight for "control" of his wife ain't over. He still has hope to save her from the depths of her own personal destruction. He's necessarily and begrudgingly preparing and exercising his legal rights. He is the victim here no less. He should also be fighting for sole custody of his child and supervised visitation to protect his child from his super abusive wife. [/color]

It is my opinion that someone who was still focused upon love for his spouse and saving his marriage / family would have probably not been able to react this way.

[color:"blue"] Only a fool fights infidelity with blinders on. Preparing your backside is one of the things I advise the most on here. It's the area I have the most expertise in. She cheated. He had every biblical right to seek legal process when he first discovered her adultery. Why did he wait, actually he did wait and only sought counsel upon her filing. Tons of our guys over there are getting served with divorce papers, the information about his rights were probably only 3 steps away from him as he sat at his computer. [/color]

By the way-don't think that I don't notice how you are skipping over portions of my posts that you can't "argue" with-LOL!

[color:"blue"] I have skipped not a single valid point...I know, cause you have not had one...YET.[/color]

Well CS, since you seem so fond of the "hard questions", let's get down to the "brass tacks" and see you answer some...

1. What say you regarding you being an abuser yourself?

2. WHY are you on an infidelity forum in the first place?

3. Why didn't you ever address what I feel is a very valid point made by Mr. W on SB's thread?
I'll quote him below, and await your response...


CS along another vein, your response to Orchid was this...


Ok, now, I am the proverbial "horse's mouth" here, and so I can and will solemnly SWEAR to you that a WS will do EVERYTHING within their power to maintain their addiction and shift the blame onto others...GASLIGHTING...Plain as day ABUSE, wouldn't you agree?

If, in fact, you were being truthful with Orchid, can you also see that unless you have actually been a WS that you wouldn't understand the dynamics of their forms of manipulation and abuse? I sure wouldn't have understood it before, and I'm damn sorry that I do now...Please try to learn from those of us who have walked more than a mile on this horrible road...

Mrs. W

CS,

I am glad you see my point about not always understanding these types of issues, unless you've been there done that kinda thing. It is certainly a lesson many of us have learned.

Now, I am NOT telling you to agree with any 'groupthink' POV. You really don't know me or many who post here. This is sad because as a result of HOW you choose to hear, you are missing the main message.

You know what is sad CS? What is sad is you are probably someone who c/b a very helpful person. There is evidence of this by your responding comments but the method you choose to communicate is a complete turnoff.

Is this how you communicate with others outside of MB? Hm.... try reading a book called His Needs/Her Needs..... it talks about communication between the genders. It may help.

It is ok to have a reasonable amount of differening opinions. No one will learn if their ears and eyes refuse to pay attention to the good stuff coming their way. Just like it would not be fair for us to not pay attention to the good stuff you post.

Now think about it, what your valuable points are vs the arguementive ones. Maybe making a list will help you see what others may be seeing.

We are NOT asking you to conform or think a particular way. One of the great things about MB is the abiltiy of each poster to voice their own POV. Due to circumstances sometimes that POV of an incoming poster comes across as illogical (i.e. when a troll from the OW boards wants to tell us about what M's are really suppose t/b like and how A's are better, etc.), others come in a state of confusion and others come to vent or argue. Those are more rare. Most come because they have experienced a tragedy in their lives which has thrown them for a loop. In their state of confusion, we offer support. We also recommend people go and get professional help and in many cases help others see options that could have been missed.

Read here a while, take a look at older threads.....if you don't have experience in this area, ask questions and see how many have learned to cope and improve their lives while dealing with this horrible A.

What we don't need here is unncessary anger. These people need support and help. There is already a lot of hurt and anger brought about by the WS and their selfish A.

So, do you want to help or do you need support?

L.

I am not sure where you got that . I agreed with Your statement about not being able to predict responses.

As far as me not understanding what kind of pain is involved, I'll second that-however, I would ask you to consider that often the best way to view a complete picture is from the outside, not the inside.

There are some people who have gone through bad marriages and bad relationships only to repeat the cycle with someone new because they never had any real understanding of what happened. This is because pain clouds understanding.


It is my observation that because of how many people here choose to NOT hear and see they are doomed to repeat the same painful experiences over and over again.



Your attempt to "school" me is transparent, and I reject it utterly.



Well, the Gods have spoken.



Pray, tell-what "good stuff" have I posted? Let me guess-it's the "stuff" that backs up your point of view...



Sir, my recommendation is that you speak for yourself . One person here has already said that if "WE cannnot make you leave, we will change your mind." Or something to that effect. That is in direct opposition to what you say "we" are NOT asking me to do.



No kidding.


What I want is to be free to post my opinions without people trying to find out if I disagree becasue "something" is wrong with my life rather than accept the fact that different people are likely to have different opinions.

What occured here was nothing less than cyber bullying by a gang of insecure, emotionally damaged people.

One after the other they tried to berate me out of my opinion. When that did not work they started a thread dedicated to figuring me out. I have answered all of their questions only to be accused of not answering their questions. What is scary here is that many of these people have got to be over 30...

Nada.

I view it as a tactic used in an attempt to shut me up.


I have answered this repeatedly and I will not waste more keystrokes doing it again.


My response to something as way off base as that is usually not to respond.


I secretly liked being called a "ball buster" though. That name is usually reserved for women who actually have a backbone.



First-I have been nothing but truthful since the beginning. You look at "disagreement" as "untruth" and that is truly bizarre. Are you aware that I could, like SB's wife, agree with you to your face and be, like SB's wife, lying at the same time.

Are you aware that sometimes people tell lies of agrement in order to keep the peace . (If this thread is any example of what happens when someone is honest enough to share their feelings of disagreement-then I have new feelings of empathy for lying peace keepers.)

In other words, at times- agreement is a lie.

Second-I have the ability to understand manipulative actions. I cannot truly understand how it FEELS to have this done to me, but I can certainly grasp the dynamics.



Our capacity for learning and understanding is different. It would be a mistake to think that just because you are a certain way I must be that way too.




You desire to teach is understandable, but a good teacher must be willing to learn as well.

Your basic argument is that I don't know how it fee-eels so I have no right to disagree, and it is a faulty arguement. Dr. Harley has never gone through some of the drama you have, yet you are willing to accept his principles and use them in your personal life.

Have you read his story about how he developed his "system"?

The alleged experts are imperfect human beings too. That is why I said earlier that I read as much as I can, incorporating some concepts into my belief system and leaving some behind. And that is why I will repeat now: No advice or "system" from any "expert" is 100 % guaranteed.

AND-Your experience with infidelity does not make you an expert. If it did, then you should create your own web site for the purpose of dropping your knowledge on the rest of the uninformed world.

This was a description of SOME people in the military-not "the military.



Apparently you have never served a day in the military-LOL. And NO -being married to a military member does not mean you are or ever were IN the military.

Also, I said nothing about "the best looking wife." My comments were about the perception of married versus single males.


Sigh...How many people have identified themselves as military in the TITLE of their thread?...



I listed some SPECIFIC challenges that I have in my marriage and stated that it is not perfect. But, of course you missed that right?


Here we go again. Sorry, I will not address this one again. My presence here simply IS, and you will all have to accept it just as I accept yours.



I have been responding to so many people, that this statement is absurd.


You may want to read for comprehension next time.

Orchid: I am not trying to 'school' you. I am not your teacher, just sharing a POV. But if you can't handle people sharing their POVs, then why post? Just to share yours? Hm....trying to understand but only finding a wall......


Orchid: CS, do you really mean what you have posted? Because if you stand by your posts, these statements are highly disrespectful. You are reading between the lines of words and thoughts which are not there, then jumping to conclusions which are waaay off base. But that is your choice. Makes one wonder if you are like that in other areas of your life.

Seems futile to continue this discussion. Btw, from the 'school of life', there is no graduating.

Though I do wish you well in your journey through life. Maybe one day.......

L.

Actually you know what? It does make us experts in infidelity seeing as we have survived it whether or not our marriages also survived.

And we don't need to create our oun websites - we already found one. www.marriagebuilders.com the sign on the door here.

CS, you will disappear just like all the other trolls in the fullness of time. People like you don't tend to stay here long. The trick is to minimise the damage you do while you are here before you get bored and move on.

The only way to understand the pain is from the inside CS. You have no clue why people do things after infidelity to save their marriages. Unless of course you have spent as much time saving marriages as Dr Harley.


Well I am not sure that pain clouds understanding but certainly, if people don't learn from their past mistakes they are doomed to repeat them.

CS, while infidelity is a choice on behalf of the WS and is never the BS's fault, most if not all BS's here acknowledge that their marriages have been less than perfect and that they helped the marriage deteriorate to a point where their partner chose their affair. That's why the whole MB philosophy encompasses meeting EN's and removing Love Busters from the marriage.

No, her basic argument, and the argument of many here, is that you have NO EXPERIENCE or TRAINING in infidelity. No one has said that you "have no right to disagree" only that you havent a clue what you are talking about, which is why you can't defend your opinions. We also have a "right" to disagree with your opinions. [that "right" cuts both ways, ya know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] They are silly and you know it.

That truth was revealed in your refusal to accept that you are an "abuser" when the EXACT SAME STANDARDS are applied to you. You laugh them off when the tables are turned, though. That REVEALS how seriously you take them yourself.

Dr. Harley, while he has no personal experience, has years of CLINICAL experience and is a TRAINED psychologist who specializes in infidelity. You have none of those qualifications, so it is quite amazing that you feel equal to a trained, experienced psychologist and imagine we should give you the same regard. Should I give my mechanic the same regard on brain surgery on the subject of neurosurgery? That is what you are asking.

Many of the others on this thread, however, KNOW Dr. Harley's tried and true principles and have successfully applied them in their own lives. You can't make the same claim. You have no experince and no training, you are like the mechanic who tries to give advice on neurosurgery.

As I stated in my earlier post, which you completely ignored because you could not refute it, if you were going to learn how to successfully lose weight, who do you go to? Someone who has successfully lost weight or someone who has NEVER had a weight problem and understands nothing about it? If you are a drunk and want to sober up do you consult a successfully recovered alcoholic [AA] or someone who has never drank? Of course it is the former in both cases. So, please lets use some common sense here. You have no experience whatsoever in this arena. And it SHOWS.


Yet, you can't seem to intelligently refute that "tactic" for some reason. And that is because you know its true. You are without defense. Anyone can read for themselves the standards you applied to sbmml and see that you have violated your own professed standards.

It's ok for Cinnamon to "abuse" others, but not ok for others; ie: it's "abuse" when they do it, but not "abuse" when she does it. It's ok for Cinnamon to call people names, but not ok for others. It's ok for Cinnamon to make up snide names for people, but not ok for others. It's ok for cinnamon to "skip over portions of posts" she CAN'T answer, but not ok for others. One standard for Cinnamon, another for others.

In other words, you believe you are entitled to a special standard that others are not, for some reason. You continually hoist yourself on your own petard, yet seem utterly oblivious to it, since you feel you are above the law. You apparently feel you are above answering for that gross inconsistency.

One set of standards for Cinnamon, another set for the unwashed, huh?

The problem is that if a standard is truly a standard it must apply to ALL. Not just to others. You don't have a special exemption.

And the true reason that you won't accept that you are an abuser, is that you know that sbmml is not really an "ABUSER" as you have so cruelly labled him. If you are not, then he is not.

CS, I have never seen someone who so flagrantly - and blindly - practiced what they preached against. In fact, if folks will study my posts to you, they will discover that many of my words are YOUR WORDS that were used back against you because they were so suited to your behavior. All of my best material comes from you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yet you won't accept that fact from others. Another example of a special standard you want for yourself that you are not willing to afford others. In fact, you dismiss anyone who disagrees with your opinion as "damaged."


Sugar, you said that folks here are so "damaged" from adultery that they are incapable of rendering a rational viewpoint on adultery:


Yet, here is a sample of what you have said to those you believe are "damaged; and you deny that you are an "abuser?" WOW

1. I am about to ridicule you though: Based upon what you just posted, I can imagine you stomping your right foot with a pacifier in your mouth at this very moment.

2. Interesting...The Nazi's said the same thing.

3. Stated to LadyClueless: I find your screen name to be highly appropriate.

4. Your comment seems quite foolish in light of this fact.

5. Also, the invitation you extended to Believer to talk about me on the side -while comical in a grotesquly dysfuntional sort of way- only serve to show that my comments are striking the string of truth on the banjo of your conscience.

6. It is childish and illogical to try to conclude that something is "wrong" with me.......


7. (In fact, one of the cyberbullies used that word in his post...) My posts consist of my opinions .

8. is a clear sign that you have run short on cogent responses to back up your point of view.

9. spoken to AussiesWife: If you actually read and interpreted my words for yourself rather just being a bandwagoneer, you would find that I am in agreement with you on this main point:

2. The sad and bad part of all of this is the one sided perspective being provided by many of the respondents here:


3. I honesty think you have received and are still receiving crappy advice here...Actually-you can't call co-signing and high fiving with a few disparaging remarks about your wife thrown in for good measure "advice."

4. Justuss, I am familiar with the concepts, and I have concluded that high fiving does not qualify as support.SB was blindsided because of all the "support" he received in this thread.

This is just a small sample, there are many more.

First off, you have no way of knowing if anyone here is "damaged," unless you are a qualifed psycologist who has examined them. So that is a silly assertion that you andI both know is just an attempt to discredit folks because the facts won't help you.

Secondly, If you believe those folks are "damaged" why are you heaping abusive insults on them? Why are you causing a distraught, despairing fresh BS [a soldier who is serving his country in IRAQ] more grief by falsely accusing him of being an "abuser?" We are here to help people, not incorrectly label a drowning man as an "ABUSER," by taking his statements out of context. That is a level of nastiness and cruelty that is very rare on this forum.

It clearly reflects a hostility towards betrayed spouses, that says much more about you than it does them.

CS... I deleted my last post to you because I thought it was a bit too harsh. Now I see it was too nice.
So, you failed to address what you did in the medical field. Obviously not much more than sweep floors since you cannot see the difference between an incubation period and the time frame for whaich a disease will show up on a test.
In addition... you NEVER stated what you were doing here... only that you showed up here before there was a forum. SO, what brought you to a infidlity recovery board in the first place?

And ball buster is not a term used for women with a backbone... women with backbones don't need to bust balls... their views are respected without resorting to the cheap and dirty tactics that you engage in. If I were your H I would be in the military too... it would give me a leave from you. And I have a distinct feeling that is a requirement for being around you. R & R.
Go away you troll.

This is just INSANE!!! Do you realize that this is the same thing as your husband coming here and telling us that he secretly likes to be thought of as a man that "keeps his woman on a short leash"? It is that disrespectful and ABUSIVE!!!

Saying that you like being thought of as such a thing is one of the most childish statements that I have ever read...This attitude will not EVER serve you well in life and it is a death sentence for your marriage...

Mrs. W

MelodyMelodyMelody. It grieves me to see you display this shameful state of ignorance about the TRUTH in this case. And especially from you, so admired for the cogent pithiness of your posts. Let me explain. When you and the Kahuna and the Wonderings, and all the others in your gang of brutal cyberbullies, apply a descriptive little appellation to CS, you are CALLING HER NAMES. Bad bullies. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Name calling is unacceptable on a marriage-building site. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> When CS makes up names for people, it is called "radical honesty." And she REALLY, REALLY believes in that. In fact, it would seem the more radical the honesty, the better it is. Of ever-increasingly higher quality, you understand, this honesty will prove to be--the deeper and sharper it cuts...

But only if it cuts you, of course. Or SB. Or...or...or... Oh, yes, let's not forget Neak. We want to give her a really good slash or two. But by George, let that "radical honesty" flow the other way? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

What a bunch of meanies you all are. Picking on the poor little sweetums whose very name includes both sugar and spice (and everything nice, too, I'm sure). The only good thing I can see out of this is that you are helping her out with her personal exercise and fitness program...which seems to consist mainly of jumping to conclusions, dodging the issues, bending the facts, and throwing accusations. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

OK! I'm retired military. I've had a WS who had an OC as a result of her A. I stuck it out for the 2 children we already had. She refused to have any more of my children to make up for her A and the OC, which I would up raising; even after she left us to 'find herself.'

I wrote all that to establish some of my credentials.

I started to read the other thread and gave up. On this thread, I'm with Cinnamon Sugar. The man said he was an abuser, she addressed that fact, then everyone attacks her saying he is not an abuser. By who's standards? Are not her accusers abusing her?

As a First Sergeant (1SG), I've seen enough fools who treat their wives like dirt. When their wives try to talk to them, they just brush them off. I've seen them run around from A to A while their wives are home trying to keep it all together. Then, when some guy starts treating the wife nice and she slips down that slippery slope, he gets all bent out of shape about what she did to him. They never see what they did to her. NOTE: I DO NOT CONDONE ADULTERY IN ANY FORM, by the husband or the wife.

Yes, happily married soldiers are considered more stable, and therefore more promotable.

I would write more, but I will get hit by enough 2x4s as it is. So, I will get my NY Yankee (I’m a Mets fan who now lives in Missouri) tail off for now and wait for incoming. I’ll check back tomorrow.

Real life has been intruding ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and I haven't had a chance to sit down and post anything stunning.

Ronald, I just wanted to comment that while sbmmal said he had realized he was abusive, the behaviors he listed were pretty small potatoes. I kept waiting for him to tell us what he had done that was actually abusive.

Maybe he really was abusive and just hasn't given us the specifics, that is certainly a possibility, but we just do not have enough information to judge one way or the other. Sbmmal saying he was abusive because his wife said he was abusive, as a result of what seem to be correctable lovebusters (again, we may not have the full story, and I realize that), does not automatically make him a bona fide abuser.

There just isn't enough intel there to be confident that he is, actually, an abuser. That is why we have all at different times suggested that he talk to his IC about it, and let his IC evaluate if/how he was abusive. It did not sound to any of the MB folks as if he actually was, but we did not want to steer him wrong, so we opted to keep advising on the issue of A-busting and recovery, and leave the abuse discussion to the professionals.

(Except for on this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Lemme see Ronald, Sbmmal wrote ONE line saying he was an abuser. ONE line. You know in the desperation of a BS, trying to make sense of everything, they actually do sometimes believe the Fogese of their WS and start to believe their rewrite of marital history.

If you want to see abuse, look no further than the spice troll.