Well, my H and I are having our first MAJOR disagreement since reconciling. MAJOR is defined as me feeling as strongly about my opposing position as he does his...

Of course, I come armed with my wealth of knowledge and insight about the FIGHT OR FLIGHT PATTERN. I knew that I was guilty of it. Now I am aware that he dances with me in this.

Back in the day, when faced with a major disagreement with him, I would either yell/scream, etc. or go underground and do what I want to do.

My H is clear and certain that I no longer yell and scream..no angry outbursts from me. So, he has assumed that I may be going underground on this issue. A few days ago he said: "Don't make a decision without talking to me first". I took him at his word at this, not wanting to replay old patterns.

So yesterday morning, I brought the subject up, indicating that we needed to talk about it, addressing his particular concerns..the questions that he had, etc.

I was..to say the least..dismayed and shocked by his response. He did the FIGHT, blowing up, giving (in my opinion) irrational reasons for NOT DEALING WITH THE ISSUE , seeming to try to instigate me into FIGHTING with him by accusing ME of wanting to FIGHT...YUCK...

I became VERY ANGRY with him..ANGRIER than I have been in YEARS...but I didn't say or do anything about my feelings at that time...just said: "I'm not going to argue with you about this"...

He almost immediately went into FLIGHT MODE. At first, he was out of touch (by phone)..although he was at home..for about a half a hour..Then, he called me at work and calmly stated all the reasons why he did not have the TIME or ENERGY to talk or to think about the issue over the next few days. He has filled up the time until about Tuesday with various excuses.

I remain ANGRY about this. So I was COOL towards him last night. He looked at me pitifully and tried to engage me..it seemed..trying to make me turn into my usual self..but I am angry at him.

I wasn't sure that he knew this until this morning but now he's cool towards me...

What's my next move?

To be honest, my OLD SELF wants to reemerge. I want to either SCREAM OR HOLLER at him or DO WHAT I WANT TO DO..the old FIGHT OR FLIGHT...

However, my NEW SELF is WORKING ON A PLAN...

What do you guys think about this? What do you see that I don't?

What do I see that you may not..

Probably not much [winks].

Maybe this will help though.

If the argument is issue based..then it is a poja thing..right?

No urgency?

So it sounds like the two of you continued to engage beyond the point when stopping and taking a few hours or days might be a better idea.

It sounds like you might both be trying to force an answer..and perhaps having a little power struggle?

If I were you I'd probably try to detach from the ISSUE rather than from H.

Not to suggest you change your opinion..but either it is negotiable or it isn't..right?

If it's negotiable it isn't ironclad for either of you.

So if you are able to approach with taker mode all the while having protection of the marriage be the priority goal..then that is what you should do.

If you are not able to do that together..then I don't know what solution to offer. Two people both trying to be right and not agreeing will fight..I don't think there is any way around it.

let go of the anger side...

there's no point...

reiterate that HE said to you...

do not make a decision without talking to me first...

tell him the day the decision needs to be made by..
and that you expect to hear from him before that or you will HAVE to make a decision..without him..

ARK^^

Thanks Noodle and ark!!

Noodle you said:



You are right about the POWER STRUGGLE!! But..it is ME who is trying to force the issue..H thinks through avoidance the issue will go away..or I will let it go...

I think I will detach from the ISSUE..FOR A FEW DAYS...

That will help me with my ANGER with him..I think he is trying to GAME me by hoping that I will back down and go away...

THEN, I like ark's idea...



Timeliness actually is an issue in this...

hmmmm..ark says... Let go of the angry side..there's no use...

Becoming aware that there is anger over not being able to control him..not being able to have power over this...hmmm...anger over not being able to knock down that BRICK WALL...

I should practice what I preach... Mimi, you can only control yourself....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Okay, you directed me here...so here's what I have to say.

(First of all, I feel like a bald barber selling hair tonic these days when it comes to marriage subjects...)

Two thoughts run through my head:

"So yesterday morning, I brought the subject up, indicating..."

Why, oh why, do you have to throw this bone out and hint at him to grab it? I can tell you...men (and I think I still speak for that group of the population) hate it, absolutely hate it when they have to kind of decode what you are "indicating"! Just say it:

"H, I know that this subject has caused friction between us, and our communication is more important to me than xxx"). Can we talk about this so I can better understand your concerns?


Second thought...

Do you and H pray together? Can you HONESTLY, HUMBLY pray together about the issue WITHOUT using prayer as a thinly veiled attempt to win the agrument?

(same subject...go back over to my thread...)

That's my thoughts....

Georgia

I forgot to make it clear that he got angry because I even brought up the subject and tried to talk to him about it.

This confused me because he told me to talk to him about it.

Plus, he has told me that he likes to talk about serious subjects in the morning.

I'm thinking about calling him and telling him that his response, "Hurt my feelings..that I only wanted his HELP with this". This is true. I need his HELP rather than going off on my own and making a mess. He actually is VERY WISE and want him to help me this issue rather than AVOIDING a discussion because we disagree. Basically, I am thinking that he wants his way and doesn't want to negotiate about it and/or dealing with conflict takes too much energy for him. On lots of issues I do go along with him because he is RIGHT..but on this..I defintely do not agree..at least at this moment I don't. If he would share his viewpoint, I might change my position.

What do you think, Georgia?

Let's don't bring in the prayer discussion right now. That's another whole hornet's nest...

I dunno. I'm getting kind of mixed messages from you.

"...I only wanted his HELP with this".

I remain ANGRY about this. So I was COOL towards him last night. He looked at me pitifully and tried to engage me..it seemed..trying to make me turn into my usual self..but I am angry at him."

You know, I think I'm really in agreement with a hybrid of the noodle and ark responses.

First, you are are going to have to see that you are...like it or not....out of control. I've "seen" you this way before...but it's been awhile. You have to be the one to get yourself back in control.

But..back to the H issue.

Why not say:

"H, you know I respect your opinon about xx, that's the reason I asked for your input. When can you give me a time (as you sit down next to him with your calendar, PDA, whatever...) that we can discuss this issue and put it to bed once and for all?

Note:

Let him give you the time...but EXPECT him to set an appt. Your ealier communique seems kind of wishy-washy about that. If I were H, I would feel the ark response is still YOU trying to exercise control..which is what he is really resisting.

Let him know there is light at the end of the tunnel. One good discussion could end the whole thing...and you DO respect what he has to say! (You DO honestly respect what he has to say, right???).

Georgia

Georgia, you've got it!! Thanks!!

Whenever he SENSES that I am trying to TAKE CONTROL (H, deal with this NOW, talk about this NOW), he feels DISRESPECTED.

How could I forget? The ANGER comes from FEELING DISRESPECTED.

However, I think that he ASSUMES this. I do want his help and would value and respect his opinion. It's the NOWNESS that is causing me to be misread.

What makes me ANGRY is that it seems UNFAIR for him to get ANGRY at me. Funny, I'm ANGRY because he got ANGRY. He asked me to talk to him about it. I did. He wants me to do things NOW..when he asks me and I do. UNFAIR..UNFAIR...(Venting for a moment here)



He did give me a time. I guess that's why he was giving me that schedule until Tuesday. However, I read it as him trying to put me off...and ASSUMED that Tuesday he will come up with some other reason not to talk about it.



YEP!!! But Why???

Because it is Gen. Mimi setting the deadline..

Gen. Mimi,

May I have a moment of your time? Thank you...sir/ Madam <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I would strongly recommend you NOT tell him his anger hurt your "feelings". You know anger is a secondary emotion driven by: pain, fear, frustration, etc. Pick the emotion that drove YOUR anger and tell him, "Your response to my question really made me (fearful, frustrated, etc)" You pick the correct description.

He will NOT misunderstand that comment, if you can put a name to it. Next, set down and explain that this issues is chewing on you and you need his opinion. You will RESPECT his opinion even if you might not agree with it. Now if you two agree to disagree, then the issue becomes what to do about the issue: let it lie there, brainstorm different approaches, hope that new data comes in, discuss what might make either of your approaches acceptable to the other OR decide what the REAL issues is and what each of you are afraid of.

Make the discussion about the issue and what defines it, what each of you fear about the various methods of resolution. DO NOT TRY TO SOLVE THE ISSUE...right now.

I know, I know a good General does not have to coddle the troops like this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, hey this is a volunteer army you have got Mimi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So what do you think?

God Bless,

JL

I concur...

Let me add that any leader can command, it takes a good leader motivate followers.

Mimi,
You are getting excellent help.

Figure out the best way to talk about it, and agree about that before actually trying to solve the problem.

Once you do begin to talk, perhaps you both can list the reasons for your point of view.

Sometimes we just want what we want, and are not willing to list the pros/cons. If that is the case, one or the other needs to do some serious thinking.

If both of you can list your reasons and then compare them (in writing) side by side it will probably help.

Remember one of the good approaches to POJA is to ask "What would it take for you to agree with me about this? What would make it work for you?

Looking at this from all sides is there any ways you can think of to make it work? "

Also think of what his reasons might be, and see if you can solve them before you even talk. It's hard to give examples without knowing what is going on.

A good friend once told me "He (or she) who takes offense when none was intended is a fool. And he (or she) who takes offense EVEN WHEN IT WAS INTENDED is still a fool."

When we disagree at our house, I am trying to learn to think "How can we make this work for both of us? What can I do to help her understand my point of view, and am I looking at her point of view? Am I giving her support, does she feel loved in this discussion or steamrolled?

Your H should be protecting your feelngs, but you are the one posting on MB, so perhaps you need to protect his feelings and be an example.

JL was right about anger being caused by another emotion. It really helps to look at what is happening and try to get at the root dauses instead of taking offense. Keep in mind I am not judging your H, or yourself when I gave you this quote about taking offense. This is an attempt to give you tools to help both of you understand why you react and feel as you do, and make changes if change is needed. It has been a great help to me.

POJA is such a great protection in a marriage. Often we realize weeks later that what we wanted at the time might not have been for the best. Having two to discuss and come to agreement is such a wonderful thing.

Prayer -
If he won't pray with you - to me that would be an indicator of the state of the marriage. Of course I don't know what is going on, but my W and I pray together before we go to bed and have done so for all our married life. If one of us doesn't feel like it, we understand we have unresolved issues. As I said, it's and indicator.

I hope YOU continue to pray, it has always helped me a great deal.

SS

YOU GUYS are such great ALLIES for my H!!

You all are such a GODSEND, filled with such a wealth of understanding and knowledge, helping me learn about WHAT A MAN NEEDS..WHAT A MAN WANTS...

I'm absorbing all that each of you has said...

We are back on the right track...

Hubby is HAPPY about my saying "Yes" to going with him to do his job tomorrow. He seemed concerned that I would say "No" (H: "Are you going with me tomorrow morning?") That means that he thought that I was angry..unhappy with him since I've gone with him every single Saturday for almost three years. So it really is our first MAJOR DISAGREEMENT in his eyes as well.

I'm not going to bring the issue up myself for a few days. I'm back to GODDESS MIMI and may be able to do some PILLOW TALK INFLUENCE on his thought process. SOOO, my H will probably bring it up himself though... wanting to be RESPECTED to discuss this when he has the "TIME AND ENERGY TO PROCESS THIS COMPLICATED MATTER"..or something like that he said..

When we TALK, I will definitely use your suggestions...

About the prayer issue...my H is definitely having some sort of SPIRITUAL CRISIS..which we discuss frequently which is somewhat like out loud PRAYER...We discuss his feelings about the Lord..my feelings about the Lord and HIS GOODNESS...There is a problem with us being betrayed by our former church and/or church members and beginning to think about going to a new one..

As long as I have known my H, he has not liked to pray OUT LOUD....Long complicated story on this having to do with his own family issues which continue...

Thanks ALL...

cool....

Gee, I feel a bit silly coming along after JL and SS and ark and noodle and FGG. But one thing that got mentioned only in sort of passing is what you're doing to get yourself back to grounded and centered. Goddess Mimi instead of General Mimi. I 'spect you know how to do that pretty well by now, but I still wondered -- what're you doing to go from whatever that secondary emotion was to a solid, connected spot that you can stand on confidently. (Alternatively and perhaps better, that great place that feels like you just got out of a bubble-bath and into the most comfy bed on the planet, still all glowy and warm and happy with the world.)

Hmmmm?

Mimikins

It's so weird when the M is humming along like a jaguar & then the engine starts to sputter & smoke *choke*cough*

I think it triggers your post traumatic stress nerve endings & you might even tingle as your body tries to get you to flee the *danger*warning* .... the stress hormones are real Mimi .... and when they flood your CNS your biological instinct is to run or hide ....

and the sense of danger makes you angry ... because your animal instinct is to frighten off any possible approaching danger ... you become like the cat who sees a strange dog approaching & arches her back & puts her fur on "attention" & flattens her ears & makes her face look as scary and as dangerous as possible.

"BACK OFF JACK ... I AM MEAN AND I AM MAD"

LOL ... it's not just you Mimi!!!

These hormones have a noble purpose, to save the host (you) from destruction or injury ....

God gave you these hormones.

God also gave you the ability to think & evaluate even throughout this hormonal flooding. Did you know you can think your way out of the desire to flee or fight?

Actually, it's a softer , more spiritual self-talk than ordinary thinking ... it's a more prayer-like zen of being in the moment.

Biofeedback works for me in moments like that. But it's an acquired skill you'll need to practice when you are not feeling the stress hormones.

Here's the technique that works the best for me ..... you can try mine on & then invent your own version. I use prayer to stop my hormone red*alert when I am upset yet, I want to remain engaged and present. I take control of myself & let go of everything else.

Practice everyday.

Do diaphragmatic breathing .... some call it yoga breathing. Slowly in through your nose, and then even slower out through pursed lips. Do at lease 10 of these breaths, and with every exhale, loosen some muscle on your body. I usually start with my hands if they are clinched, then I do my jaw, then I do my shoulders ... etc.

You'll need to practice this when you are feeling fine, so I sugest you do this while driving, at every red light, do 10 breaths. When waiting in a line somewhere, do 10 breaths. Plus, muscle relaxation.

Once you are comfortable that you are doing this right ... then add the mental soft talk... like I said, I use prayer.

When I breathe IN ... I say (think) ... ~IN WITH PEACE~ or sometimes I say ~In with God~ and when I breathe out (remember the breathing is very very slow & measured) I say (think) ~OUT WITH FEAR~ ... or anger, or whatever blackness you want to will out of your mind & body.

You can use whatever words you choose, as long as they are meaningful for you.

The beauty of this technique Mimi, is that once you master it, you can do it anywhere and NO ONE knows you are doing it ... and that means, you can do this in front of your husband or anyone else who is the source of your stress.

If you are expected to respond during this time you are "blowing off" your stress hormones, you can say something like ... "Give me a moment ... I need to center my thoughts."


With practice this becomes a major tool you can use in almost any circumstances that are stressingyou out.

Athletes use a similar technique to put themselves in the zone....

It's really simple, and very effective.

And, if/when your H gets emotional while you are calming & self soothing ... you can actually function as a calming effect on him as well. If he cannot engage you with his rising anxiety (coz that's probably what it is at the root of things) ... then his anxiety will diminish & your calm will make him feel safer .... not right away ... but it will.

and Mimmers....

this:



is where God is with you & will catch you if you fall....

the letting go

is letting God

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KEWL

Pep

PS Mimi ...

[color:"blue"] The cold shoulder toward your husband [/color]

is a cold shoulder toward God the Father

"oops"

You are called to love him Mimi ... not called to fix him.

so better watch it !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

XOXO

Pep

Pep:

I know. I know. I'm in some kind of rut/slump/off of my game...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

hormonal flux?