Yesterday I realized that I was purposefully deciding that there are certain subjects that I will not discuss with my H.

Why? Because if you've been following this thread, you know that when I bring up certain HOT TOPICS he begins to talk to me in a LOUD VOICE.

I've grown to the point of not PANICKING in the midst of these emotionally-charged conversations. I can remain calm. I have told him in all kinds of ways that I don't find how he is talking to me to be acceptable. He is not listening to me when he is "RAGING"...I experience it as RAGING although he may be just talking in a loud voice...

I come from an family where LOUD VOICES led to SCARY EVENTS so I do have a PTSD reaction to anger expression and loud voices..thus my CONFLICT AVOIDANCE....

I have told my H how I feel about his communication style. He continues to do this and doesn't seem motivated or have the desire to change. He seems to be colluding with me in not bringing up the SUBJECTS. He SEEMS comfortable with me avoiding conflict as I have said to him that I am not going to talk about these issues with him. They are not big LIFE or DEATH issues that have to be DISCUSSED...


So why not CONFLICT AVOID if this works for us?

You might be wondering what ISSUES I am referring to.

I will say that he is TRIGGERED by any implication that he is being DISRESPECTED....

I've been thinking that MAYBE that I can start conversations by saying LOUDLY AND CLEARLY: "I don't mean to DISRESPECT you..I don't want to DISRESPECT you....

RESPECT is a BIG ISSUE for him...

So with me playing the devil's advocate of CONFLICT AVOIDANCE here, what do you guys think?

Some more info:

This is an issue for us because IN THE PAST I used to keep things from him, make decisions without checking with him because of this type of thing. We have a history of not being able to come to a joint agreement about things...so not being able to work as a TEAM for this very reason....

So I've shared to him..in UNHEATED MOMENTS...that I've been telling him EVERYTHING...being OPEN and TRANSPARENT to the utmost..to insure that he is not left out...

He doesn't seem to be aware that his COMMUNICATION STYLE contributes to this. Well, if he is aware, he is not doing anything about the style YET....

He has implied that I don't need to tell him about EVERYTHING because certain issues he can't handle or whatever..colluding with me in the CONFLICT AVOIDANCE as stated above...

Last night, he did state EMPHATICALLY but not ANGRILY: Mimi (stating my real name to make his point): In this "NEW LIFE" of mine (yes, actually said this), I will not be DISRESPECTED. I allowed that to happen "IN THE PAST". I'm no longer going to allow that to happen to me"...or something to this effect...

This is NEW for my H...such an "OPEN AND TRANSPARENT" expression of where he is coming from...

Remember the other day when he said he was not going to TALK ABOUT HIS FEELINGS?

It seems that he was trying to GIFT me or something when he was sharing his pain over having been disrespected IN THE PAST...

And where does the A fit into this? The FOW offered the TOTAL ADMIRATION drug..remember "PRETTY WOMAN"...the suave, older businessman and the rags to riches prostitute (PYT...pretty young thing HO)...Get the picture?

This interesting, mimi...

I have the same issue as your H. Respect and admiration are VERY important to me.

Does your H have a good idea of what "respect" and "disrespect" look like to him? Has he shared that with you?

Additionally, does he understand that he can choose how he will respond to perceived disrespect? There are choices besides anger?

I intentionally had to learn a process of response when I felt like I was being disrespected...
1) Did I hear you correctly? Can you explain what you mean? This is to make sure I didn't miss something or take something wrong.
2) I'm feeling disrespected by your statement/action...and here's why...
3) If we still haven't resolved it...I tell them that we cannot converse without mutual respect - and I'm not feeling that. We should stop talking now.

The problems usually arise when the other party start in telling me that "I shouldn't feel that way" or otherwise invalidating my feelings. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt...but I have had instances where they ultimately admitted they were disrespectful and apologized.

Have you guys tried to discuss these issues through letter, email or instant messenger? Takes the "heat" out of it to some extent.

It's sooo amazing that I have just GOTTEN THIS after 30 plus years of loving this man. It's SPECIAL to him that I have "gotten" this...

As you can see, I'm trying to change my AUTOMATICS and figure out what to do about this...



Yep. He indicates that he thinks that ANGER is the BEST AND ONLY response to this.



Thank you, Low. I think he perceives me as doing this. I see myself as sharing "my perspective"..TRYING to make it clear that I am NOT DISCOUNTING his perspective...

He gives the impression of not wanting to hear my perspective, angry over the ASSUMPTION that I am DISCOUNTING him when my opinion is different...

I do have a history of this in the past, criticizing his perspective..being self-righteous and judgemental..trying to make it clear to him that I have changed....

He is so protective of himself, fearful that I have not changed..and maybe I haven't as much as I want to think that I have...

Alot of my HELPFULNESS and trying to FIX things comes AUTOMATICALLY, I've noticed.



It works for me to leave messages on his voicemail when I know that he will not answer. That's about as new age as my H has become. I check his E-mails at his request. Heaven forbid the thought of him having to use IM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

My H has same top needs as LO and we have taken to initiating the most sensitive discussions by phone or email or TM so that there is a sense of feeling safe, not having to look directly at the other and I think it helps not having to see my (BS) expressions of pain and hurt...in the past when he saw it he would stop immediately and say no more.

We are just learning how the best way for us to tackle communication is and hopefully can progress to face to face...we have been successful a few times at face to face in past weeks which has provided some good positive reinforcement

Maybe you could agree to trying something like that or just let it happen spontaneously by you initiating in writing or on the phone or TM

THANKS 2MUCH!! What you are saying is really helpful..I'm going to think on this...

Low:

BTW, the "PASSION" in our marriage is over the top...now EYES OPEN..a lot of the time...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

I am a conflict avoider to the nth degee.

I have realized I will never recover if I don't deal with that issue.

The reason being is that sometimes conflict is good and necessary.

In some cases when a person crosses your boundries there will be conflict. If you avoid the conflict then how do you enforce your boundries.

My boundries were a joke to my FWW because when I tried to enforce them she turned it into a conflict which I avoided.

When she turned it into a conflict and I avoided it I felt bad that I didn't stick up for myself.

If I felt bad about it and it continues to happen How do I recover?

I could chose to leave but what good would that do. The next person I would be with would do the same to me. Because I let them.

Just my two cents.

I now realize conflict is not a bad thing. It is healthy actually. Within reason of course.

*snort* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

This what you mean, dear Pink Lady?

"Yesterday I realized that I was purposefully deciding that there are certain subjects that I will not discuss with my H." And you thought, Hmmm...is that respectful? My highest honesty?

"Why? Because if you've been following this thread, you know that when I bring up certain HOT TOPICS he begins to talk to me in a LOUD VOICE." It isn't the subject, Mimi, it's your boundaries...loud voices aren't how we communicate intimately or honesty...you know how to listen and repeat, state, "I am hearing your Loud Voice and I feel fearful."

And if his Loud Voice continues, then walk away...there's a lot of places to walk in Vegas...my gosh, your legs can fall off walking the strip alone!!

"I've grown to the point of not PANICKING in the midst of these emotionally-charged conversations. I can remain calm. I have told him in all kinds of ways that I don't find how he is talking to me to be acceptable. He is not listening to me when he is "RAGING"...I experience it as RAGING although he may be just talking in a loud voice..."

You walk away for five minutes and come back. Still Loud Voice, then walk away for twenty minutes...rememeber, you must keep your voice out of the loud range...and respect he may be fearing MIGHTILY even with your calm voice, right?

"I come from an family where LOUD VOICES led to SCARY EVENTS so I do have a PTSD reaction to anger expression and loud voices..thus my CONFLICT AVOIDANCE...."

You are an adult, cumulatively experiencing reactive fear from all your years...not just with H...and avoiding conflict does not avoid the fear, does it? So each time you speak on these subjects, not limit your topics, you are telling your self you are mature, capable, not tiny and helpless, holding that fear and speaking, anyway, builds that muscle...lets you really know you are brave and courageous and an ADULT...ebbs the fear...

"I have told my H how I feel about his communication style. He continues to do this and doesn't seem motivated or have the desire to change. He seems to be colluding with me in not bringing up the SUBJECTS. He SEEMS comfortable with me avoiding conflict as I have said to him that I am not going to talk about these issues with him. They are not big LIFE or DEATH issues that have to be DISCUSSED..."

Learn your boundary tool choice...if he continues to speak in a loud voice, then call him on it..."DH? I am trembling inside. Stop it. Now."

"I am NOT talking LOUDLY...you're just sensitive!"

"I cannot hear what you say for all that pain happening to me at once."

Leave him. Alone. It's time. For hours. Do not go back to him until you are safe, even if BOTH of you have to whisper your conversations for one week solid...

"So why not CONFLICT AVOID if this works for us?" Then you remain PTSD victim, don't ya?

"I will say that he is TRIGGERED by any implication that he is being DISRESPECTED....

I've been thinking that MAYBE that I can start conversations by saying LOUDLY AND CLEARLY: "I don't mean to DISRESPECT you..I don't want to DISRESPECT you....

RESPECT is a BIG ISSUE for him..."

Saying it and him believing it are two different things, Mimi...SHOW it.

"I respect our opinion. What do you think of ____?"

Then listen and repeat. Do not refute, share your opinion right away...let there be a minute or two of absorption; before you state your opinion...share your stuff...

Great thread...they do have internet access at your hotel, Mimi...heehee...down in the business center. Wink. Wink.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Mimi

it's OK to avoid a LOUD conflict ~as in ~ delay it until the fruit is ready to be picked

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

and the discussion can be broken up into more managable smaller segments

where you & I fail, is wanting to manage the timeline ... it's true for me, and also for you I suspect

sometimes, we try to pick the fruit too early & we have to pull HARD to get it to let go

*kiss*

Pep

Loving:

I FINALLY got your attention, HUH?

Thanks for responding. I ALWAYS LOVE to hear from you...better said..I ALWAYS LOVE to LEARN from you...


YES! YES! Thanks. That's why I was playing the DEVIL'S ADVOCATE of this issue. I needed to hear this from you. I had THIS UNDERSTANDING but could not put it into WORDS for myself.

I have ACTUALLY been using the coping and learning strategies that you have suggested and I think both HE and I are GETTING THERE...

I've gone for a drive around the block..after saying to him, "this is scary for me, I can't listen", etc.... and have come home and found him laying down quietly on the bed..as if concerned..as if realizing that he has stepped over a boundary of mine..I have left to insure that I don't get LOUD in response to him..that was my OLD STYLE...as I have probably said before, this, of course, gets us nowhere..



Luv ya, Loving!!! Ding! Ding! This is the answer for me. THIS IS WHY I NEED TO NOT CONFLICT AVOID....IN ORDER TO BECOME FREE OF THE PTSD. HALLELUHAH!!! I am getting there!!!



Funny you mentioned this, I did think of you guys for one hot SECOND when I walked by the BUSINESS CENTER. But there were no LOUD VOICES in Vegas.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..well, not ours...

OH, MY.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

You are speaking of TIME AND PATIENCE.. one my own mottos...

Dang it..I need to PRACTICE WHAT I PREACH...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Welcome back, Mimi!

Good choice on ignoring the Business Center...and thanks for thinking of us non-vacationing, romancing people at home...(okay, maybe romancing non-Vegas style).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

About the getting there...getting there...God created us as present-only creatures...we are always arriving, aren't we? Why do we choose to see a destination and not know we are arriving at it all the time?

Kudos for your drive around the block...though I would prefer you walked around it, given that fear, anger, strong emotionals do not make good driving companions.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

When you chose to remove and stated it was from your own fear...you were respecting your H and yourself...an act of protection for the marriage and for H...who waited for you, thoughtful...and you were thoughtful...and loving...because you didn't withdraw...you removed...for a short time...and brought your presence back...I can see you both thriving this way...upward spiral.

And you were minding your feelings, not managing the conflict.

OooooAhhhhh.

The more you base your premise on sharing...not confronting (confronting what? sharing what is yours with DH? sharing!)...the less you will see, feel, taste conflict...the easier it gets to share...so the more you share...and are shared with.

God's design is stunning...getting the human fingerprints out of it (what I call FOO stuff), isn't a quick trip...wasn't a quick one to get there...and marriage is that place, to me...sharing with your best friend...your conflict buddy...yeah, you heard me...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

hmmmmm.

Mimi,

This is an interesting discussion.

I'd like to give my perspective on "loud voices". I don't think most people think about exactly how loudly to speak in any given situation. For most, the sound level is just a reflection of the intensity of thought associated with the speech. My XW used to often complain that I was shouting at her - and it might occure in situations in which there was no conflict at all - just something I was exited about that I want to tell her.

We each have our history. For me, to be excited about something, and telling somebody about it - with exactly the same low, quiet voice as I would use to say "add butter to the shopping list" - feels horribly repressive - even depressing. When I would think about living that way, it seemed to me to be a robot's life. I would have to suppress all emotions so that my voice would never change it's level. Whenever this would happen, I would feel very sad - and often would avoid telling her about anything that I found exciting because I knew that instead of sharing my excitment, she would be angry with me.

My XW, on the other hand, grew up with somebody shouting at her - every day - ugly insults, accusations, threats. And before that, she was in a war. She can't help being set off by Loud Voices.

<sigh>

If we get back together (which has oft been suggested between us), I think we both will have to find a path of change - so that I could be sensitive to her triggers and express excitement in some other way - while she could learn that there is more than one kind of loud voice.

-AD

You are sooo right!! This was not safe. Walking has the added plus of physical health benefits and is definitely a WILL DO for me!!



AHHHH..I am learning and growing soooo much these days... SHARING...being my H's CONFIDANTE... I've discovered that this is what he is doing with me when he discusses his issues with our son..I've had the AUTOMATIC ASSUMPTION that if my H is "unhappy" (another disrespectful assumption) that I need to FIX things. He is actually SHARING with me. I'm amazed at how important it is to him that I sit there and LISTEN. I'm recalling now how he said that he was initially attracted by the OW because he "needed someone to talk to"...YUCK..she probably sat there and LISTENED...I can get sooo busy trying to "HELP"....This has definitely been a PATTERN of mine...My H has continued to SHARE with me lately..BUT he tends to warn me occasionally not to MEDDLE by talking to our son about what is troubling him...

GUESS WHAT, GUYS? They do work it out without my involvement. HOW DARE THEY? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



YES!! It's wonderful... Even moreso wonderful is the fact that you get to do OTHER THINGS with your Hubby that you don't do with your other FRIENDS.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So as I've indicated..one of my MAJOR GROWTH PIECES has been to realize the value of me just BEING THERE with my H..his "shoulder to shoulder buddy" (as described by Eggerichs in LOVE AND RESPECT). He wants ME with him..ME, WHO I AM..NOT, WHAT I DO...ME, SHARING LIFE EXPERIENCES with him...WOW!!!!

Thanks for listening, you guys...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AD:

About LOUD VOICES....

One of my favorite things about my H is how he gets excited like a little boy about experiences that make him joyful and happy. His talking LOUD about that stuff is GREAT...

But..he is also LOUD when he is ANGRY and there is a clear distinction between his ANGER and HAPPINESS..Maybe folks who are LOUD are LOUD regardless of the EMOTION..

Maybe you are saying that I may need to ACCEPT the BITTER in order to get the SWEET... I guess you have heard the expression, "You have to take the BITTER with the SWEET" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



This is ME...EXACTLY..except I wasn't in a war..this brought tears to my eyes when I read this...it's hard to understand this unless you've lived it...



So, for me, I want my H to maintain his EXCITEMENT...I'd much rather learn to cope with the LOUDNESS..as you see I'm doing in my own PERSONAL RECOVERY....

Hi...I just wanted to jump in and say HI (on your thread, hope you don't mind).

Things are wonderful....FGG still feels like he's 16 again...but with extra caution this time. Our trip was fabulous....lots of alone time to talk about "stuff"....

I'll catch up on you later, Mimi...I just walked into my house (which is a total wreck). I had the back 2 bedroom floors refinished while I was gone. House looks like an explosion in a saw dust factory.

Georgia

My relationship with my H started off as a friendship which grew into much more..DUH. I recall my M saying something like: "He's the one" and me saying, "No, he's just a FRIEND."

Somehow I forgot the VALUE OF THIS FRIENDSHIP over the years, becoming bogged down in childrearing, house management, moving up in our professions.

So, my H thought he had a NEW FRIEND in the FOW. Turns out, he now calls all that "BS". It seemed like a FRIENDSHIP because she would sit there and LISTEN. He felt like he had someone to TALK TO. I've learned that I became to busy FIXING and MICROMANAGING..trying to "Help" whereas what he NEEDED was my COMPANIONSHIP.

Why did I downplay the significance of MYSELF as a COMPANION to him? Turns out this is what he MISSED during PLAN B.. His life companion..who shared his history....

Turns out that he got tired of everyday being a NEW DAY with the OW. It's FUN and THRILLING in the beginning but it is HARD to keep this up..always having to ask "What's your favorite song..your favorite ice cream flavor...how do you make up your bed...etc....

He was so used to this that it became almost comical during early recovery when he would tell me things about himself and I had to keep reminding him: "I already know that about you...."

So I've learned to BE THERE with my H..to sit with him..to be his SHOULDER TO SHOULDER BUDDY as Eggerichs describes in the book Love and Respect. I still have a difficult time understanding what's so special about this. However, he most definitely wants me to BE THERE with him so that we can SHARE experiences. He says something like: "I want you to see and experience my life with me so that we can talk about it". I'm so accustomed to feeling that I must DO something in order to be VALUED whereas all my H wants me to do is to JUST BE MYSELF....

He seems to have felt that he lost ME and during PLAN A.... ME returned. He realized that I was still in there.

I hope this revelation of mine is helpful to someone else. It's been so helpful for me to come to an understanding of this.

ETA: Plus now it seems that he even moreso wants TO DO things FOR ME...rather than me SERVING him...

Great post, Mimi...and a great lesson...

You're working on understanding you are a human being...

not a human doing...

Trust this will come...this present for experience...sharing it as it comes...talking about it...is intimacy...not doing, earning, fixing, pleasing...protecting (ahem)...but...

being.

LA

Mimi...that is a beautiful post.

Tuesday night I got to sit on a sofa next to Lisa...eat delivered Pizza Hut pizza, and watch a movie together.

BLISS...nothing like it...

Friendship & companionship & security....

All greatly under-rated, IMO...