I saw your post on ChaCha's recovery thread and I had to come read it. I'm so glad I did, it really hit home for me.




My H and I started off as friends also. We were friends for about a year and a half before we started dating. We always had a mutual attraction the whole time we were friends but he had a girlfriend.



Exactly!!! Hopefully my H will realize that someday soon.



I can guarantee this is what my H missed.



I soooo wanted to ask my H something to this affect the other day. He asked me to make him a sandwich. His words "because you know how I like it". I wanted to ask him if that made him feel good that I know how he likes everything and if OW would have known how to make his sandwich. I didn't though, but I hope it's something he thinks about.



I am still trying to learn how to just listen. I'm also trying to learn how to have small talk again. I've never been good at it but that is one thing he definately misses with OW. He and her would talk all day long. He and I used to do this when we were friends and dating but now we know everything about each other so I'm often at a loss on what to talk about. We even work together.



I have noticed this also. H is doing things he never did before. Getting me drinks, fixing dinner, helping with after dinner cleanup, etc. If he gets up he will ask me if I need anything.

If we can stay on this track we will definately have a better marriage then we ever had before.

Thanks Mimi for this post, it has given me some more positive thoughts on my current situation.

Daze:

You have it! This is a GIFT TO YOU! He is recognizing the WONDER AND MAGIC of you as his WIFE. This is priceless!! When you guys say that your H is not telling you how he feels, HERE YOU GO!! He has told you with this. You do not have to ask him. Of course the OW does not know how to make his sandwich. This is what he is telling you without coming right out and saying it. This is what he got tired of doing with her. THE NEWNESS that is not necessary with you as his wife. This is what I learned about my H during early recovery. He had a hard time coming right out and telling me about the A...but I learned a lot without asking him and without him telling me directly...

It's funny..my H even began to use CODE WORDS like "SOME PEOPLE" do such and such or later on it became "BAD PEOPLE" do such and such..It's because TALKING ABOUT IT directly was too EMOTIONALLY PAINFUL for him and as I have said before it's difficult for men to speak directly about EMOTIONAL PAIN...

Your H has given you an important message here..

DO THOSE THINGS FOR HIM THAT ONLY YOU KNOW HOW TO DO!!! This important regarding SF, too, girlfriend... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS TO HIM!!!

Get it, Daze????

I am definately starting to get it and the MC pretty much pointed this out to me too, don't know if you read my update on our MC appt. from this week.

Not to get too personal but H has been making many comments about our SF lately. He has been saying that we have the best SF and our SF is the best in the world, etc. I love hearing those words but at the same time I want the validation of him actually coming out and saying it's better then his was with OW. I'm sure that is what he's trying to tell me but I want to hear it! I know he can't and he won't say it and I'm trying to understand that more and more. I'm finally GETTING it that he is saying it just not in the way I want.

I guess I've got to learn to read between the lines... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course I may be wrong but IMO your H is definitely trying to TELL you that he LOVES you and that he is SORRY. Remember, according to Steve Harley, LOVE IS A VERB.

What does the man have to do for you, Daze?

And why does he have to do this YOUR WAY?

Another thing to keep in mind, according to Eggerichs, DISRESPECT HURTS A MAN DEEPLY IN HIS SOUL...

Tell him how much you APPRECIATE what he does and watch him GLOW!!!!

Georgia will testify to this...

I would only add to that to tell him you appreciate HIM....

(Makes me a loyal lap dog...which is what Mimi has heard from me before). He needs your respect...your admiration...your appreciation for who HE IS.

I think actually, that she was often triggered by me being angry with somebody else. If I were to tell her "Did you read about the outrageous thing the city counsel is doing..." or something like that, in a tone that reflected my anger with somebody else, she always took it as if I were angry with her.

Probably I could learn that "righteous indignation" is not a feeling that I can share with her. I think that would be OK.

-AD

AD:

Are you SURE that she took it as if you were angry with "HER"?

I empathize with your XW, having grownup in a household like hers.

Often when my H makes those sort of remarks, I am BOTHERED, too.

It's not because I think my H is ANGRY with ME.

I think he is not being SENSITIVE to MY ANXIETY in reaction to such an ANGRY TONE.

It bothers me that he has to SPEAK AND REACT that way in order to make his point.

I'm learning to RESPECT WHO HE IS and not make it ALL ABOUT ME.

I'm learning that I have to develop my own coping strategies rather than expect him to be the person that I want him to be.

Pep was correct in her observation that he has a LOUD COMMUNICATION STYLE....


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]

What does the man have to do for you, Daze?

And why does he have to do this YOUR WAY? [/quote]

I want him to help me feel safe. I want him to WANT to help me feel safe.

He doesn't have to do it my way. I'm trying to open my eyes/mind a little more and see the small things I've been overlooking.


This is a huge need for H and I've come to realize that I definately wasn't meeting that need. That is also the main need that OW did meet. He has constantly told me she made him feel like a man. She made him feel good about himself. She would tell him that he made her feel safe and secure.

Part of me gets resentful thinking about this b/c he did whatever he needed to to make her feel safe and secure but he is not ready to do whatever he needs to do to make me feel safe and secure. (i.e. - NC letter, radical honesty, etc.)

I do try to make him feel appreciated for the things he is doing however he gets embarrassed and doesn't want me pointing those things out. Example: the other night he had dinner ready when I got home, I gave him a hug/kiss and told him how happy it made me and how much I appreciated it. He doesn't want to hear it. He feels these are things he should be doing and I don't need to point them out.

How am I supposed to show appreciation and admiration when he balks at it yet this is one of his needs?


Also Mimi, I was reading the Harley is a smart man thread and I copied one of your posts below:



I believe this same thing is what kicked my H off the fence so fast. After 10 months he was pretty secure that I was too loyal to my marriage and therefore would be there when he finally decided HE was done with OW. When I gave him the plan B letter and he realized that I was becoming a renter it freaked him out. In fact he has told me since day 1 that he wanted me to let him know when I thought I was ready to move on so HE could make a decision at that point. He didn't want to be blindsided by me filing for divorce or me moving on without notifying him first. Would have been nice if he afforded me that same courtesy!!!! LOL

Wish I could have changed to that renter mindset earlier in the game.

Daze,

About the admiration and appreciation...

When you appreciate, state it. You choosing to do so would be from your own personal code...your standard you hold yourself to--not his possible response.

When you admire something in him...from a smile, to his grace, to a soft word or the way he listens...speak it. Your truth. Do not betray yourself...adding to his...feeling the impact of his bigger, deeper, when you are actually betraying yourself...feels the same, different source.

Define yourself...share yourself...that's intimacy. When you do, you will feel safer, more secure IN WHO YOU ARE...and then you will feel the level of fear you have about his behavior and choices as it truly is...

We all fear...infidelity strikes at our most primal fear...of being erased and replaced (abandonment and annihilation)...knowing what fears you have helps tremendously in not feeling all of it through your H.

Hope it's okay I stepped in with that...Mimi knows.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Dazed:

I think it will help you A LOT if you stop comparing his R with you to his R with the OW. It's like comparing DIAMONDS(you) with PIECES OF GLASS (HER). You can't possibly understand the nature of their R. You don't want him to treat YOU like he treated HER. She was an adulterous OW in a R with YOUR HUSBAND.

The work now is developing a NEW RELATIONSHIP between YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND....a R that is not at all ABOUT HER or how he related to HER....He supposedly is FINISHED with her...you want to work together as a TEAM on your R with each other and on HELPING HIM to be FINISHED with HER....

Let's take her out of this equation...

I think it's necessary to learn those DETAILS of the A as we have been discussing on another thread in order to help you HEAL and to feel more SAFE AND SECURE as you say....maybe this can be accomplished more safely for you both in your counseling sessions...but in learning the details..make sure that you don't get to thinking that you want him to put you and her on the same page or the same level...think of you and the FOW as being as different as NIGHT AND DAY...she being NIGHT...you being the LIGHT OF DAY!!!

Regarding ADMIRATION/APPRECIATION you say:



I'm not too sure that he doesn't WANT to hear it. He may feel uncomfortable with you doing it at this point, continuing to feel GUILTY and REMORSEFUL about the A..my H felt UNWORTHY of me early on in Recovery..maybe yours does too...

Maybe as Georgia says..put it in terms of appreciating HIM and not what he DOES...He wants you to LOOK UP to HIM...admire HIM..for doing SPECIAL things..not doing what is normal and expected...that's what I'm hearing...

You say:




Now take a look at what I said:



I said he became AFRAID THAT I WAS TURNING INTO A RENTER...

I've clearly REMAINED A BUYER to him..he became AFRAID that I would change...

I say MAKE IT CLEAR to your H that you are working on Recovery because you ARE A BUYER..don't let him mistakenly think of you as being a RENTER..

Yep. She would ask, in an angry tone, "why are you angry with me?"

And, I should add here, that compared to her, I'm very quiet.
For shouting and door-slamming, she was the champ.

And... it frightened me. She was, early in the marriage, violent - mostly just destruction of property - other stuff too.

To be fair (or fair-ish)...

I slammed a door once or twice myself. (Actually I only remember one time.)
-AD

Wanting to share these insights, in case some of this may be helpful to others.

First of all, I need to make it clear that my FWH fits tht pattern, I think, of having had a MLC. We were very happily married, for many years, he was a great, "DUTIFUL", hard-working husband and father, especially when our boys were young, sharing in all aspects of childcare. He was WONDERFUL...and "IN LOVE" with me... He was the all-aroung "GOOD GUY", seemingly "PERFECT HUSBAND". My friends would say, " You are soooo lucky..you have it made". So, of course, he would NEVER have an A and I began to take him for granted. You get the picture.

Well, 25 years later, there we were....in comes "PRETTY WOMAN"...I think of that movie as having sooo many characteristics of his A..although Richard Gere supposedly wasn't married... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then there was D-Day... after more than two years of my denial of what was going on. Once I was onto him, it only took a couple of months for me to find them and caught right IN THE ACT..YUCK...

What I am about to speak to is his GOOD GUY SYNDROME. I don't know what else to call it. My H got tired of PLAYING THE GOOD GUY and wanted A WALK ON THE WILD SIDE. He wanted just a WALK but got CAUGHT UP into it and couldn't easily get out of it. He got ADDICTED. He even says now that the FOW was his "COCAINE" and that the affair almost "DESTROYED" him.

Recognizing this provided the answer for all of our FALSE RECOVERIES. The chronology of it..which I hate to recall..was: D-DAY...left home 2 months later...back home for 1 month..left again for a month..back home for another month.. 3 months of PLAN B ..back home but another month of contact...has been home for almost 3 years.

Notice in the above chronology that there was some contact even in THIS RECOVERY..right after PLAN B. I have remained haunted by the conversation that I heard between my H and the OW when he I heard him tell her this last time: "Yes, I love my wife"...after she said: "You still have FEELINGS FOR HER? I never could understand why she said this particularly then.

I got it after reading Eav's thread last week. He came back those other times to try to remain THE GOOD GUY! ..not because he felt like he wanted to be with ME or because he loved me...

Listen to this folks!!! It took PLAN B for him to realize that he wanted ME ...that he wanted to be with ME..that he missed ME..because he still loved ME...

When he confessed this last time, before calling the OW woman, he said (and I don't know if I will ever forget that day): "I can't do this AGAIN...I can't go through this AGAIN"... Why? Because he remembered PLAN B . He knew that if he left again that it would be over. He believed that I would go on without him. The other times he felt that he could cake-eat. So, although he continues to have a craving for what the OW offered at the beginning of the present recovery, he wanted to be with ME!!!

The other insight that I have that my H keeps reminding me of almost DAILY now that in his "NEW LIFE" now as he calls it, he is being his REAL SELF. He is no longer PLAYING THE ROLE OF THE GOOD GUY. However, keep in mind, he is not the BAD GUY who was in the A. Remember, as I said before the other day, he felt that the OW liked the BAD GUY and supported him remaining the BAD GUY.

He wants me to get to know HIM and to accept him for who he REALLY IS. What's so amazing is that I've known him along but I have been guilty of trying to make him into I wanted him to be and he did try to do this to please me because he LOVED ME THAT MUCH and I almost lost the man who I married in the first place.

This is important stuff for me to realize. Thanks for allowing me to share this with you.

I know this pattern may not fit with many others but maybe some of you may find some of yourselves in this.

Thank you Mimi,
I think there is a piece of what you are talking about in the issues that happened to me and my H.
Lake

Lake:

Please share about that "piece" if you don't mind.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

mimi,
You and your H have been through a much more complicated journey than my H and I have been through.

However, I can get a better understanding of our short journey through your amazing accomplishment within your journey.

We have had a very happy and fulfilling R and M. My H is considered a very good guy. Sure he went off into La La land during many parts of child rearing. He has a large "thought world" about sports, politics, work. But generally speaking, everyone views him as the good guy--responsible father, husband, professional, oldest son.

When he got back in touch by e-mail with a girl he had dated decades ago, he was aware that he wanted to "play"--bulls**t, brag about what a great and successful guy he is and to have fun remembering what a great and sought-after teen he had been.

He made a decision to not tell me about his e-mails and phone calls to her because he wanted to do this without oversight from me--He just wanted to be himself, not himself and W. How could he remember his youth with his W looking over his shoulder.

Well, he got caught up in it--addicted to the rush of the activity of having his old teen-age self reflected back to him. He really was not aware of how caught up in it he got. His correspondence with her was increasing each day for three weeks and he was not aware of the increase or what it might be doing to him and his real life.

It culminated in him lying to me in order to go out and meet her when she passed through town. They met and gabbed for over an hour. It took actually seeing her to make him feel enough discomfort with what he was doing for him to bring her back to the house, claiming to me that he had just "run into her".--D week followed.

I know that there is something to your last paragraph also--that one about you trying to make him into someone that he was not that rings true also. I was constantly trying to get him to come out of his cloud and interact with the kids. I talked to him about it over the years in a number of different ways and a number of different times. I am certain I was too negative and he just read it as "critical W".

Now, after the EA, he is able to see that it was not just "critical W", it was H really being off in a dream world half the time. His ability to go off in this dream world through a brief EA made him see what he had been doing all along.

I am also aware that my "critical W" mode did not help and that I need to lighten up and that now, I can lighten up. I need to and can laugh at his jokes--smile more--appreciate him for the man he is.

He is really paying attention to the kids now like he never did before and he says he is enjoying it. He is paying attention to me more also and is enjoying it. I guess it is dawning on me even as I am writing this that he is transferring his old way of drifting off into his mind onto actually interacting with all of us around him. And he seems to be enjoying it. It just took this little but very addictive drift away from us to make him see what he had been doing. If you have read my other posts, you can see that his EA was small but just as addictive and therefore, large in the way it robbed me and the family.

I know I need to keep supporting him in his efforts--stop being his mom, stop being critical, let him be a 'bad boy' however that might express itself. And just enjoy him for being him.

You had such a complex situation to deal with and I give you all the admiration and credit in the world for being able to do what you did. Congratulations and thank you for sharing.
Lake

Hi Lake,

I just wanted to say I really related to your post.

I, like your H, spent a lot of time escaping or "in my head." I've been doing this since I was a little girl.

Since I've been in recovery, I've been trying very hard to break this pattern and connect more with both myself and the outside world in a more healthy and constructive way, as your H is doing now.

I, like your H, am so much happier since making an effort to do this! I've also noticed an improvement in my relationship with H since making this change. I think my H's support in my efforts, as yours with your H, is what's helping foster this change.

Congratulations to both you and Mimi for growing out of your situations... it certainly is inspiring to see!

Katie Mae

I'm working on my relationship with my sons.

I'm being honest when I say that I am feeling sad and guilty about what I may have done to them.

I've been doing a lot of talking today with my OS who as some of you know has been working with my H in the same business.

It is a real lucrative business and our son has been quite successful.

What's getting in the way is his PERCEPTION of his FATHER..a PERCEPTION that I helped to create which was very WRONG of me to do.

I spent many years of my marriage being CRITICAL of my H, not ACCEPTING of HIM, thinking that I wanted him to be a different person than he is.

I was WRONG I know now in sharing my negative viewpoints with our sons. That was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG in ingraining in them NEGATIVE VIEWS of their father. Also, it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG of me to give them the impression that it is OK for them to talk NEGATIVELY about HIM to me.

I was WRONG in my viewpoint of my H. I LOVE HIM so now, ACCEPTING HIM FOR WHO HE IS...realizing how WONDERFUL and WISE he is.

Our boys don't see this. They interpret his LOVING BEHAVIORS NEGATIVELY because they bought into MY DISTORTED POINT OF VIEW.

What do I do about this now?

I had a conversation with my OS today. I communicated his need to show his LOVE for his father. I communicated how he was DISTORTING LOVING BEHAVIORS that my H is showing towards him.

I believe that I really did this..got in the way of them establishing a good relationship with their father.

This was SOOO SELFISH of me...

I think I may have wanted them all to myself...

I AM SO SAD AND GUILTY ABOUT THIS.

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

HELP or just say HELLO!!

HELLO!

It took a while to plant that seed, Mimi. It will take longer to kill the weeds that came up instead.

((((((B))))))

Thanks!!!

I needed to hear that.

TIME AND PATIENCE and continued work on this, RIGHT?