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To ForeverHers: In post "#3041770 - 06/21/06 07:39 AM" you said that God must be truthful because "a liar cannot be God." You also said: Quote: My "belief system" is NOT founded on some "imagining of my mind or some other human's mind." It is founded up Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, the Son of God, the Word through whom all things were created. Fair enough. It is evident, then, that if it can be proved that God is not what he claims to be, then he is a liar and cannot be God. I'm sure you'll agree that God must be omniscient. I here present what I believe is absolute proof that either God is not omniscient, or is a liar. I'm sure you'll agree that this applies equally to God the Father and God the Son. In Jerusalem there exists a structure known variously as the Western Wall or the Wailing Wall. It has long been a holy place for Jews. Today, Jews pray and worship in front of the small remnant of some 28 meters long that remains unburied. The wall is actually about 450 meters long, but most of it is buried under the walls of buildings built alongside it. Details can be found here, among other places: http://mosaic.lk.net/g-wall.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wailing_WallThe Western Wall was part of the Second Temple complex of buildings, and was largely built by Herod the Great. Now, Matthew 24:1,2 states in the New International Version bible: Quote: Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." Note my point: Jesus clearly prophesied about all of the temple buildings, that not even one stone would be left on another. Yet the Western Wall attests that Jesus' prophecy failed. Thus, Jesus was a false prophet. If he was a false prophet, then he was either a liar, or he did not know what he was talking about. If he was a liar, you've said that he could not be God. If Jesus did not know what he was talking about, he was not omniscient and cannot be God. Either way, the fact that Jesus' clearly stated prophecy failed proves that he is not God. If the Bible cannot be trusted in such an important matter as the nature of Jesus as God, then it cannot be trusted any more than any other human writings, and so putting one's faith in other of its claims, such as that the God of the Bible created everything, has no more value than putting faith in the writings of David Koresh. Thus, there is no reason to believe in creationism rather than accepting the huge amount of scientific data that proves that evolution has occurred. AlanF Okay, Alan, since you want to have a theological debate I will respond to you on this thread and not on the thread that is intended to discuss Evolution and Creation as Models of how things got here. Since you have said nothing else regarding Jesus other that what you personally think “proves” him to be a liar, and therefore the entire Christian faith to be built upon a lie, we’ll address your “proof” and see what it “proves.” You have contended as your sole rejection of Jesus (unless you have more things that you think “prove” he is not who he said he is) that his statement in Matthew 24:2 is not fulfilled, and therefore he is, in your opinion, a “false prophet.” So you contend for the 3rd “option of the Trilemma (Legend, Lunatic, Liar) as so many have done in the past. At least you have company with the Pharisees and Jews who had him crucified. But I should, in all fairness, give you the opportunity to “correct me” if I am wrong in my assumption that you hang your rejection of Jesus solely upon the “Wailing Wall” and the supposition that it’s existence “proves” that his Matthew 24:2 statement was wrong and, as a result, he is not the Messiah promised to the Jews in the Old Testament. So, is that your sole “proof” or are there more things you’d like to lay out on the table before we begin? If there are, then let’s get them all out there so they can be addressed also. By the way, I’d also like to know if you are thinking of Jesus as the Jehovah’s Witnesses portray him or as the Scripture (not that invention called the New World Translation) describes him. For reference, should you need it, I would refer you to John 1:1 for the primary difference between the two. I’ll wait for your response before proceeding so that we’ll all have a good idea of the basis for your opinion.
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AlanF - not up to a debate? Then how about a discussion of your contention?
I assume you DID want a response and a discussion since you made such a big point of it your postings on my other thread. But perhaps my assumption was wrong and all you wanted to do was to "drive by" and toss grenades hoping no one would pick them up and toss them back to you. Then you could claim "cowardice" and feel justified.
I'll go back to waiting for you to answer my previous post questions.
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FH, if your adversary is guilty of anything, it is of a lack of vision and poor reasoning and yes, also of lobbing a few grenades at anyone silly enough to take him seriously.
As you know, Christ did not say WHEN there would be no stones remaining. As there is no time limit, there is plenty of time for said stones to be worn down from all of the kissing they are getting from the faithful.
It was a crap example to use as support for whatever argument he had going.
Frankly if you are secure in your faith there is no reason to argue about it and there is no reason for your continued and exceedingly nasty efforts to dominate anyone around here who doesn't accept YOUR word as the Truth.
Why don't you put it down, it's becoming dammed irritating to see all the discord over it on these forums.
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Why don't you put it down, it's becoming dammed irritating to see all the discord over it on these forums. I concur. However, you will find that most of the "discord" is directed at bible believing Christians, and, imho, often requires a response in much the same way that the "rationalizations and justifications" of a "sincerely believing Wayward Spouse" need a response or their "twist" of truth becomes a "reality" by default in the "silence connotes assent" sort of thing. In the specific case of AlanF, he was brought here by another member because that member thinks he is has a mind that is one of the "sharpest knives in the drawer." That may well be the case, but knives can "cut the wrong way" regardless of how sharp they are simply because they are implemented in the wrong direction or used in response to a misunderstanding that leads to a wrong conclusion. In AlanF's case, he based virtually his entire "attack" on the evolution and creation thread upon his interpretation that "Jesus was a false prophet and therefore not to be followed. In one fell swoop, AlanF sought to dismiss the entire New Testament and the entire traditional biblical form of Christianity. I think, though I could be wrong, that he arrived at that conclusion because of his anathema toward the Jehovah's Witnesses and their false prophecies, and sought out a way to make it appear that even the traditional biblical Jesus was of the same ilk. He prides himself, obviously, on his intellect and reasoning skills, but the caution that would be well to heed in this attempt of his that "pride cometh before the fall." Obviously what is "at stake" here is AlanF's eternal soul. I believe he is wrong in assessment of Jesus and I a willing to discuss that with him, others need not participate and/or read if they don't want to or are "bothered" by such a discussion. That is NOT to demean or devalue anyone else, it is simply a fact that no one "must" participate in any conversation that they don't want to particpate in.
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Jehovah's Witlesses are often objects of fun. Obviously those people have taken on, quite sincerely, the idea of witnessing for The Lord.
FH, AlanF came to the thread to wind people up. What he said makes no sense on an intellectual level in terms of reasoning. Obviously he is not all that intelligent.
He played you like a violen. You have started a whole new thread for A Great Christian Saving Jesus Challenge and he is likely laughing at you right now.
In terms of AlanF and he enternal soul, I don't personally believe that arguing with and badgering is going to convince him you are saving him.
As you are a Christian and the New Testement is important to you, then perhaps when you lay your case before people and they refuse to agree with you, you should consider the words of Matthew "Whoever doesn't receive you, nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust from your feet."
BTW, I do not profess to be a Christian.
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What is your issue, blackopal? AlanF came here and made an assertion [actually another member SICCED him on FH] and ForeverHers is answering his assertion and correcting his false premise. The Bible doesn't tell us to cut and run; as Peter stated, "always be ready to give a reason for your faith..."
If it bothers you so much, then quit clicking on the damn thread. But FH has every right and reason to answer a challenge from another thread.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If it bothers YOU so much Melody Lane, don't bother responding to me.
What's wrong, isn't your faith strong enough to not feel enraged and throw a big tantrum when someone disagrees?
Profess your reasoning...do it in a respectful tone andperhaps you will make some impact.
The Bible also says, a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. So what is your reason, really, for such grievous words, and why are you so intent on stiring up anger?
Whay are BOTH of you so intent in ignoring the words of the Good book and stirring up anger?
Just curious, I am genuinely interested.
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If it bothers YOU so much Melody Lane, don't bother responding to me.
What's wrong, isn't your faith strong enough to not feel enraged and throw a big tantrum when someone disagrees?
Profess your reasoning...do it in a respectful tone andperhaps you will make some impact. The only one I see throwing a tantrum here is you. FH has every right to answer AlanF's challenge and, for some odd reason, that seems to put your panties in a snit. Why not move on and let FH answer this challenge. If it bothers you that much, don't click on his thread.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ah the response of the passive agressive, ignoring the question and instead blaming the innocent party.
I have learned a lot this week and I recognize it now.
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Ah the response of the passive agressive, ignoring the question and instead blaming the innocent party. Well, trying to shut someone up is VERY passive aggressive, BO. In terms of AlanF and he enternal soul, I don't personally believe that arguing with and badgering is going to convince him you are saving him. Yet you think badgering ForeverHers for answering a challenge is ok? hmmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Besides, FH has no challenge to answer. HE issued the challenge and his prey seems to have skipped away.
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"prey?" OMG AlanF came here for the sole purpose of ATTACKING ForeverHers after being enlisted by our member, anyname, for that purpose. If anyone is "prey" it is FH.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So let me get this straight, if I have issue with some sort of educated temperamental christian who professes to follow the example Christ set, but who is following more the example that Saul before his conversion to Paul has set, then I am badgering because I question the method?
But if FH chases around and in a threatening tone "challenges" someone who disagrees with him, then he is...?
Obviously he not up to the task because YOU have stepped in to assume the apparant mantle of his authority, rather like Elisha picked up Elijah's cloak and you are now on warpath gunning after me in a very insulting and disrespectful way because...?
You are not really a Christian and turning the other cheek?
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Whatever are you bloviating about? FH is answering a challenge laid down by a visitor who made a false claim, as any Christian SHOULD, and you are trying to shut him up by badgering him. With an obnoxious, hostile tone, I might add. If it bothers you so much, then move on. Get counseling, whatever. There are other threads to click on, ya know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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That's it, skip the point again in favor of an attack on me.
I am feeling rather like Moses must have felt that day he went up on the mountain, spent all that time there and comes down only to find out that the Jews have made themselves a pretty golden idol to worship.
There you are with your precious golden idol whose name is called fear and ego, and my what an ego it is.
I read what the guy said. He laid a theory that a reasoning soul could poke about 50 holes in and then disappeared when faced with the kind of vitriol people who are self rightious and scared inside about the stability of their own faith spew.
Kind of like the spew you are getting all over the place right now.
Almost 18000 posts and you still have not worked it out. Thats to bad. I would like to encourage you to spend more time in introspection perhaps your fear and anger will come to terms and you will be at peace with yourself and othe people.
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well, the only one I see having a conniption fit here is you, dear, so perhaps a little gander in the mirror is warranted. I "introspected" and sort of liked what I saw, thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
That being said, cat fights are not my bag, and I don't think we are doing FH any favors here. I, for one, am interested to see AlanF's response so hopefully, his friend anyname, can get him back here to answer the challenge.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If you don't want a fight, then don't attack. Just show me the compassionate side of christianity.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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You weren't attacked, BO, and "compassion" does not mean pattering soft words at each other.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I beg to differ. You most certainly attacked.
It is not that I "feel" attacked.
From what i have seen, reading on this site for the past 2 years, this is your modus operandi, a shrill attacking and somewhat abusive response to anyone who is not caving to your bullying christian perspective.
It is boring and predictable.
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