Ok, here's the deal...told WS to make arrangements to get out, tired of lies/refuse to continue in this lifestyle...this was 10 days ago. WS initially asked for 1 month to make a decision on what he wants without disrupting the kids unnecessarily...at times says he wants family and other times "I don't know what I want". Told me he knew it would stink for me to have to go through this but doesn't want to go and then come back...if he goes it's for good I guess. I didn't agree or disagree to this 1 month plan, just listened.

I had emphasized several times in the 1st 48 hours after telling him to leave that if he wants to act single he needs to leave. I verbally told him that if we are to rebuild I need total transparency and honesty (gave specific examples of passwords to computer, access to cell and text messages, bank acct etc). Since then I had out-of-towners for 4 days and there was very limited discussion. He has spent more time at home over the past 5 days to the point the neighbors asked what is going on. He is spending a little time with the kids and starting to make plans to do things around the house. He initially had 1/4 of belongings in vehicle and last night brought them in the house and then joked that it may be a jinx for him to have done it.

He has mentioned several times that he is afraid to make any real efforts b/c thinks he will invest emotionally and that I'll just end up kicking him out anyway. I busted him in several inappropriate relationships over the past 4 months...plan A'd for 2 months before and during the A's and was moving on to plan B which hasn't happened yet b/c I was so angry after busting him on OW #2 that I just told him to make arrangements to get out. Couldn't expose b/c not even sure the true identities of OWs and he has admitted that there are at least 1/2 dozen more "friendships" that could easily head in that direction. Problem is with him. He had offered to quit job twice but I refused stating that doesn't matter where he is there will always be women and he needs to learn how to set boundaries and have normal professional relationships. We have had similiar issues in the past that had nothing to do with employment/location etc...all about him getting the admiration/attn. Doesn't want/appreciate/believe when it comes from me.

I have told him I can't believe anything he says and that I don't even know how to act around him. He is typical WS and is acting like nothing happened and seems like he thinks that as long as he ignores it then it will go away. I told him initially that I was not going to sweep this under the rug and that we need MC and transparency if things are going to be rebuilt. I told him that he needs to give me a plan on how this is going to happen.

I've kept my mouth shut and haven't asked a single question in the past week, I've thrown some sarcastic joking remarks at him when he says stupid stuff and he laughs and says "Good one or you don't have to go there". Last night he got mad when I wasn't responsive to his recent attempts at "trying" to do the things I like which I admit he is going out of his way to do. I'm trying to be at worst neutral and at best pleasant but my gut feeling is that he isn't giving me what I've asked for. I haven't mentioned the fact that the clock is ticking and I still expect a plan and transparentcy which I am not seeing any signs of.

He has openly admitted he has a problem and needs the attention of OWs like it is a drug. He is not able to tell me how he is going to change this "need" and does not have a plan to do so...just says he is going to do it.

When recent discovery of OW#1 he made similiar short-lived efforts while all along working on OW#2 so I have no reason to believe this will be different.

My question is do I patiently wait and see what happens? Give ultimatum? Pack stuff and change locks? I thought about writing a letter with my expectations so that he couldn't deny being aware of what they were but don't think it will matter. I already wrote the plan B letter and am working on some financial issues that will come into play at separation time so I'm not really 100% prepared legally at this point.

Orchid has been helping me to work through this wild adventure. The thing is that everytime I have brought up any R talk in the past it is met with angry outbursts and basically ends with H refusing to contribute and several days of silence. I can tell by the little bit of chat last night that this will be no different...do I wait and see where this goes since I don't have all legal ducks in a row yet or insist on H meeting my conditions which I can predict is a no-go.

I have been 100% honest with H and since requesting him to leave only do things on my terms for example if I don't feel love I don't say "I love you" back or if I do at the moment I say it but make sure he knows that it is how I feel right now this minute. When he asked how I feel about him I told him I am ambivalent, sorta love/hate at the moment and the moments fluctuate frequently. I have maintained calm and have been unemotional and cool reqardless of where things have gone to the point where I appear to be a therapist with her client and not a BS with a WS. I even verbalized this and asked H how sick is that?

Have been driving self crazy trying to decide what to do or to just take each day as it comes and see where it goes. I just don't want to go back down the beaten path, can't take it any more. Am I too generous? stupid? bitter?

I have read all the books, don't have the $ for SH abd have insurance issues with MC, only covers family counseling not MC...have proposed to WS how we can get MC via family counseling but no comittment on his part to participate which is a must for insurance. Figured I'd throw this in so at least you know where I am.

Please provide some wisdom, advice, encouragement...

It sounds like you are doing everything right. It seems to me that your husband needs some IC. I wouldn't count on him being able to change without some serious work, and he doesn't seem to be ready.

I would keep preparing for Plan B, and ask him to get counseling. If he refuses, then you know he is not willing to put effort towards saving the marriage.

***He has openly admitted he has a problem and needs the attention of OWs like it is a drug.***

He may be a sex addict. Therapy with a specialist is needed for this. You may want to look for a book called *Don't Call It Love* and see if it sounds like what you are dealing with.

***He is not able to tell me how he is going to change this "need" and does not have a plan to do so...just says he is going to do it.***

As believer said, you have done your part. If your WH is not willing to step up and do his, then be prepared to go to Plan B.

Good luck.
Mulan

I know it's very hard to do, but it does sound like he is trying to find a way to come back to you. You say you've given him the terms...and that's part of the problem; you want him to eat the whole enchilada or none at all.

He fears that he will come back and you will never forgive him. He fears that giving in and coming back would doom him to bondage with someone who really doesn't want or respect him anyway. I know, you really love him and want him, but this is part of what he's thinking.

I'd recommend baby steps: Withdraw the deadline. Drop the demands for O&H for now...he's not at a point where he's ready to meet them anyway. These are not elements of a good Plan A.

If you know he needs and wants positve reinforcement and admiration, then those are your best tools to help him back. As hard as it may be, he want to see if it's possible for him to ever hold a position of respect in this family again.

Mulan and Believer,
Thanks for your input! Yes, he has even joked about having a SA as recently as yesterday...not sure if he is feeling out my reaction or if he is just throwing it out there. I don't want to help him seek counseling unless he approaches me b/c I don't want him to feel like it is being forced on him...I'll give it some time and see where it goes. Thank you.

LO,
He's actually made statements in the past 2 months that he has always known that no matter what happens he would find his way back to me. He has referred to me as his "home" and elaborated that it was not for security reasons but that I am the only person that knows and loves the real him. He has stated that he doesn't think has strayed "too far that he can't get back". However, his actions have not been consistent with any of this talk.

I do have huge concerns about your theory and that is what makes me ambivalent to act any further. I have made statements that no matter the outcome that me and the kids would be fine and he acknowledged and confirmed that he believed the same. He has been making observations and statements about the kids like..."DD1 would be fine if we got D she could care less if I'm around". He doesn't seem to get the fact that they have all put up their defense mechs and are shielding themselves from the hurt of abandonment which they have been feeling for 6+ months of neglect from him. I on the other hand don't want to delude myself into believing something that may/may not be the case just to defer acting or buy myself more time/pain/heartbreak.

I'm guessing words are useless from me and I need to show actions that he is admired and actually show my attention to him? I have really backed off all of that in the past 2 weeks since I felt I needed to for my mental health. Plust the fact that up to the past week he is gone 18 hours a day 5 d/wk and 8-10 hr/d on w/e...by choice...not being paide for all this time away from home. Blessing/Curse I'm sure I could find it in me to go the extra mile if I thought it would actually make a difference in the long-term outcome. I just don't want to be manipulated anymore and H knows how unconditionally I have loved in the past and I feel like he expects it to continue no matter how bad his behavior gets. I know he is struggling but I can't help him face his demons if he is not willing to bring them to the table.

He has said that I push to hard and want everything now, all or nothing but when I had no conditions/plan/terms he ignored it all and acted as if all was good with the world. If I choose to pursue this is there any other recommended reading to help me do it and remain sane???

Thank you for your thoughts you really addressed my biggest fear in all of this craziness.

The fact that you are his 'safety net' is telling. Instead of telling him more to give him a bigger safety net, remove the safety net and let him know you are not sure about him and you don't feel safe in the R as it is. Whether or not he has stopped contact with the OW....that's just a piece of recovery. He needs to make you feel safe B4 he can make you feel loved. Earning back your trust is a big turning point. Don't let him get away without dealing with that issue. That is what recovery requires.

JMHO,
L.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

He says things like this to probe how you see his value to the family!

This is your chance..."No, H, we need you around - I need you here. There is so much you do for us and you don't even know it!"

Pay close attention to these things...they are smal tests.

If you say "Yes, DD1 will be ok", what he hears is "You're right, DD1 doesn't need you around anyway."

Actually, O, they cannot get into recovery as long as there is A contact...she should still be in plan A and reinforcing the safety net...not taking it away.

Taking it away is part of plan B...he's making all of the right noises as far as being open to plan A. IMO, she should continue that tack.

Making the marriage safe and inviting is not the same as enabling the affair.

I know what you are saying...I can't even get the discussion to open up to where I tell him I don't feel safe. He is not concerned seems all he talks/thinks about is himself and how anything affects him...can't even see past to how it make affect anyone else. He won't initiate any conversation about what he can do for anyone except work clientel/colleagues...he has been helping coworkers left and right over the past few weeks...for real since they have been here borrowing stuff and him helping them. I even asked him what about the clients in this house??? He described how he was going to compress his work schedule so he would actually have 2 full days off to be with the kids but that has yet to be actualized.

I'm torn between your philosphy and the little voice in the back of my head telling me that LO's philosophy is accurate. He has mastered the art of lying and I wonder if this isn't another scheme to avoid consequences. Knowing H I personally never see him giving up privacy to be transparent...I think he would abandon all just to preserve himself and avoid dealing with all of his past monsters.

I will have to ponder and weigh risk/benefit of how to deal with this. I respect and appreciate all of your guidance, wish you were in the neighborhood, need support regardless of path taken. If I could get him to agree to at least 1 session with SH maybe we could make some headway...

I think that if I force his hand to leave he will again feel like he isn't able to make his own decisions and that I am controlling him which is how he has felt for past 10 years despite our joint agreement. It has only been in the past year that H has been able to do what he wants and has freedom. He has taken advantage of that freedom almost to the point of no return...like a kid in a candy store.

I am soooooo frustrated now, can't really think straight. I feel like I'm the one who needs to get away to put things in perspective. I can't be objective with his recent attempts to sabotage my emotions again...sorry for venting it's been a tough week.

Speaking of which, how are you...heard you had some drama???

LO,
I guess I have been failing the tests recently...I have not been reassuring in the least...cool, detached, sarcastic, unemotional...the picture of survival mode!

I have verbalized that I am afraid to expose my emotion or dig deep to find the love I know I have burried b/c I don't want to be hurt anymore. He says he understands and doesn't blame me b/c he feels I did the same to him years back when I would not fulfill his #1 EN the way he wanted for over 4 years...it is true however even when I met this need we had issues of OWs so as I pointed out to him, his OW dependence pre-existed my lack of fulfilling the EN. Not excusing my behavior and have acknowledged and apologized many times...now that I am able/willing to meet the EN for the past year he is not very interested. It is like payback time and he has even referred to it as such several times. He says although he is empathetic he can't really bring himself to help me cope since I wasn't there for him when he was feeling rejected.

Now throughout the time of "rejection" he had "friends" that met his need for attn/admiration and I tolerated unhappily for years. Knowing that do you still have the same philosophy? Just curious...

Yes, same approach. He's carrying a lot of resentment, as are you. But now is not the time to try fix it.

You have a VERY specific task at hand - drawing him back into the marriage away from his lover. Most here will tell you this is very hard to do and many times you need to "put on a face". Remember that you are on a mission...you will eventually get to point where you can deal with all of these issues.

But...is this what YOU want? Do you have hope that you two can repair this?

LO,
What I want is to have an outcome in which regardless of how it turns out I have no guilt, remorse, regret that I did everything in my power to prevent the M demise. I almost feel that I am at that point since the ball is in H court and no volley! I do feel guilty that he gave 10 yr of being home with kids and endlessly supported my career (although it was what he wanted me to do, not what I wanted)and feel obligated to try and get through this rough ride.

On the flip side, we have had several rough rides that had nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do...he now admits that they were wrong and should never have happened. I went along during those times as if I was the woman of steel and never let him see how affected I was which has now come back to bite me in the but b/c he says that I never reacted like this in the past and how come it's different now etc. Had I been open and honest and not tried to play the perfect wife who is open minded and tolerant it would never have come to this.

I want this M to be successful and better than ever but I have been taught throughout my career that hope is not a plan and yes, I believe this to be true. I want a successful marriage so I guess I need to make my own plan, assess, implement, evaluate and revise as needed during what ever time frame I impose on myself/M. I thought I had done this but maybe I need to re-eval before terminating all efforts...

Time for some reflection, meditation, prayer etc

Thank you. Can't say what I will decide but I have options to consider and was just curious on opinions. I am very analytical and need to see things in black/white...detest the grey areas which I understand can be our best friends and worst enemies...all dependent on interpretation. I'm very flexible in business and in personal and it is usually H who is the all or nothing person so this is a bit strange to be in this position.

ummmmm
??? multiple affairs with more than one OW?

STD testing ... both of you

Pep

Those were my thoughts exactly! Soooooooo WS walks in weeks ago without saying a word, was standing behind me (unbeknownst to me) while I was on the line trying to make appt for STD work-up...when I get off the phone he acts offended, is angry and asks if I think he is XXXXing around?

BS: I don't know what you are doing but I need to protect myself and the kids.

LOL, of course why would I need an exam when there was no PA with these OWs..."just friends or ended before it got that far"...uh-huh and prior to me busting you there was absolutely nothing inappropriate going on too!!! Gotta love the fog...guess I could get rich quick if I discovered the antifog vaccine...I'd name it fogfix or fogfree or fogbegone!!!!

LO,

The line of mine which you quoted was part of a complete thought.....let me explain.



Part of recovery requires he stop contact with the OW but the BS can't control that piece. What the BS can control is letting the Ws know that it is his responsbility to make the BS and family 'feel safe'. Not loved but safe. The goal is M recovery and being back in love but we need to take this in steps because the WS are just brain drained when it comes to M and family R's. Focus on the 'safety' factor and the NC with OW factor will follow. If you do it in reverse, it doesn't work as well.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid & LO,

I feel like Sybil! So, I do think in a sick way H is trying to give a little...so, I give him the benefit of the doubt. H said he would spend a big chunk of time home Mon and Tues the 4th. Yep, that translated into 1 hour Mon where he came home to eat& nap and return to work. I know I should expect nothing and I truly don't believe the words he speaks but I let it bother me cuz I was going to take kids out of town for the Holiday but H said he'd have time to spend with them...so I stayed. Lesson learned.

I called him on it as he was getting ready to go back to work and he apologized...I told him that I was disappointed b/c he says one thing and does another. H looks sincere and hugs me and apologizes and says he loves me. I say, ok well tomorrow you be sure to have a plan on how to spend the afternoon with the kids since you say you will be home by noon.

Tues comes and H gets home an hour late, eats, gets in bed and then wonders why DD1 keeps asking what are we gonna do. H offers nothing and then asks me to take DD1 out. I don't want DD1 disappointed again so I take her out for 2 hours while H sleeps and DS and DD2 play alone. No remorese, apology or acknowledgement that he failed to come thru again. I took kids out to do sparklers and watch fireworks and H spends all of 5 minutes outside and then just goes in. Neighbors even ask what's up with him?

I did get the opportunity to tell him I didn't feel safe in the M. H verbalized anxiety r/t something work related and I gave him a pep talk. He text'd me thanking me for believing in him. I text back saying that I believed he could do anything he put his mind to including recovering this M but that I didn't believe his words and would need time and work to rebuild trust. I said that at the moment I don't feel safe in our M b/c I don't trust him. I told him that he would have to choose on his own which path to take but once he does he needs to commit as he does to work and that he has to choose based on what he wants not on finance, obligation, guilt etc...I told him if he chooses for these reasons the M will not work. He texts back and asks what this means...I tell him, exactly what it says. He asks, what if I take it wrong...I reiterate the exact same message and it is never addressed or brought up again.

Yesterday when we were together it was all joking sarcastic banter back and forth which unfortunately I started and fueled about his "girlfriends" how many and age ranges,his secret passwords and secret life, what kind of D attorney I should get etc...it was really funny but very painful at the same time. Neither one of us discussed this after the banter ended.

Acts as if all is well, calls to say hi and I love you...asks if I need anything...talking about the future...

The safety net is wearing thin, I thought I could maintain a "face" and be warm and kind but after last night all I felt was rage and hate and at that given moment would have been happy for him to be gone. I wake today to a new day of options and choose to be warm and loving but I know this is sucking the life out of me and don't know how much longer I can do it without either having to totally detach or have him leave.

I think here is where things are going wrong for you...

You still have a lot expectations that he should be behaving like a husband and father right now. Frankly, that's unrealistic. As long as you expect this, you will be continuously disappointed.

You took a good oppotunity to Plan A by following your support of him with an attempt to educate him about what he needs to do to fix his marriage.

I can promise you that all he's going to remember is the barbs...not your support.

Stop trying to get him to FIX the relationship...your wasting your time until he ends the affair.

Relationship talk, is in general, a love buster at this point. You should stop.

The next time you have a chance to compliment him...don't follow it with a "but". Compliments followed by "but" are meaningless and useless.

Alright, I think that if I am being totally honest with myself I can see that since my H returned to work after 10 years of being the at home parent and the roles have been reversed...

- I was spoiled always having H listen to my work r/t drama and act interested in my daily trials; when I asked how his day was he would say fine and add nothing else...if I pressed him he would get cool and say something like "what do you want me to do tell what laundry I washed, how many diapers I changed" etc

-I envisioned the next 2 years as a time when I could right the wrongs I had done in our marriage and try and mend and repair things as a team since my job now is much less demanding

-I encouraged H to get a job and help rebuild his decreased self-esteem after being at home with kids for 10 years; it was supposed to be part-time and to help with $; it ended up him loving it so much he went fulltime and ignored everything and everyone except the job

-turns out H is awesome at his chosen career and has a cult following of women who basically worship the ground he walks on for his skills and attention; constant gifts, calls etc.

-once all this started happening and with me getting zero help with anything in the house or with the kids and trying to get my own work done I was less than supportive in my heart but tried for the M to be verbally supportive but really wasn't giving it much

-basically he quit telling me anything, never came home except to sleep

-I tried to address it verbally, by email, in letters and was constantly ignored or H would start an argument to be able to cease any communication (loves the silent treatment)

-I scowl alot and am annoyed and bitter when he talks about his work and how wonderful he is and how everyone praises him

-I say things like, you all sure like to stroke each other don't you; do you ever quit thinking of yourself; can you not just think of something besides your clients and work buddies

-I've acted like a spoiled brat for the past 6 months when H gave me 9 years of unconditional career/home support without really complaining (did have some OW action during this time too though)

-I have been faithful for the entire M but have placed self-righteous judgements on H even knowing that I contributed to our problems and my behavior may have been just as selfish as his just different forms of behavior (not excusing A's at all just taking ownership of my fair share)

-I realize that we are equals in all of this and feeling like I am above all this is only killing things instead of helping

-I won't feel like I've given my all unless I put it all aside, forgive and treat him like he is worthy of love, respect etc.

I will give this some more thought and post later

Huge internal struggles over extending Plan A and doing a better job of it or moving onto plan B.

Feel I can do better at plan A BUT H has eliminated my only viable source of snooping by changing password to cell acct; this happened after I dropped the move out ultimatum 2 wk ago...

Double edged sword not knowing anything; can't believe anything H says so I really have no indicator of any progress whatsoever...H has fooled me in the past by behavior that appeared to be marriage building but was "A"ing the entire time

I have a hard time being loving when I don't feel it; yep, I know it's a choice and I'm tired of being hurt and don't want to put it out there and get crushed again

Really having a rollercoaster week and need to follow Ark's "Be Still" advice and Orchid's "get your heart and mind in sync" advice for now. I thought I had it when I told H to leave but his refusal to leave and persistant tiny selective "bones" over the past 2 weeks have really messed me all up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyone with wisdom on how to regroup and refocus please chime in...can't even focus on my work at this point. I'm really thinking that detachment may be my only survival mode for now...bad thing is that H did this with me in the past so he'll have no problem with me doing it to him and I think it'll backfire and send him further into Cakeland