Greetings.

So sorry for the pain.

There are consenquences to WS behavior. If she continues to contact OM2, you won't stay. She needs to know that.

.........I got the "oh for crying out loud, what's bothering you now?"

There is no reason for you to stay with her if she cares more about contacting him, than about your feelings. You may have already communicated this well to her. If not, it would be good for you to talk again.

That's the way to approach it too -

"I have been through he11 these past few months. Yesterday I wanted to work on the marriage.
Now, I'm not sure. I have really tried, but I won't try forever. If you are not willing to protect my feelings by avoiding all contact with OM2, I won't last very long.

I can't control you, and I don't want to. You are free ton do what you want, but so am I. If contact continues, I won't stay with you. No matter if it is inocent, or not. If you contact him, and hide it, and I find out, we are through. At this point, my feelings should be more important to you than any friendship ourside our marriage. If they are not, why do I want to stay with you? We already know I have good reason to worry - and little reason to trust you. It's up to you what happens now."

I would guess this is pretty much what you said. If there is anything there that is helpful, please feel free.

If the ship sinks, the light house continues to shine. You adapt the plan to increase chances of success, but you are still the light house.

Remember her addiction is a chemical one too. She seeks the chemical high from contact. WHO is not as important as the feeling she gets from doing this. I feel sorry for her. I feel for you, and what you are feeling, but unless she comes out of this, her life will be a terrible thing for the near future.

You still have your choices. Running your plan doesn't take them away from you.

Tell her why you wanted distance. Tell her you are having a hard time wanting to work with her on this.

The point to make is that you know you will be OK no matter what happens, but you would rather be OK with her. Make sure she knows you need help to continue. Ask her for that help.

SS

I forgot something -
There are two parts to this.

There is the recovery or failure of the marriage.

AND

There are the improvements you make in yourself.

This is by nature....... a trial of who........ and what you are.

When it's all over, you will know if you did well, or not. It's to your advantage to take a good look at it from this side, and make all the improvements you can.

The cooking is a good example. If you have a goal to learn more, and become a really good cook, you get to keep those improvements. Often if the marriage does not make it, people consider the time wasted. If you improve yourself, it won't be wasted. If you become a better person, if you make yourself into the man you want to be, you won't be sorry.

When this is all over, you get to keep your new skills. Never think you are wasting your time.

SS

I'm feeling a little better today. Yesterday was definitely hard, harder than most days. Mostly because the suffering that came to the surface was mine, and not WWs.

We didn't talk too much about it. I wrote her a long email that explained how I was feeling, but she was so busy with work she wasn't able to respond. Work is very stressful for her right now because she allowed herself to get so far behind when the A was going. Now that it's over, she's trying to catch up. She worked at the house until late last night and will do so again tonight. Fortunately, the work crunch will be over next week.

I noticed that she hasn't actually started wearing her wedding ring again like she said she would. Even though she said she was willing to work on things, she's struggling with second thoughts.

I found a MC that seems open to exploring the MB program with us, and I made an appointment. I just referred her to the site, and she gathered enough information to understand the basics, and was fine working with it and her own strategies as well.

Meanwhile, I'm back to just concentrating on my Plan. No LBs, meet any ENs when there is an opportunity, and be super dad. I have some specifics in place for today and tomorrow, but yesterday was a good reminder that I can't do too much at once, or too fast.

I'm sad and scared and nervous, but I don't feel as horrible as I did yesterday. Trying to get into the right frame of mind to be able to follow the Plan. I've been obsessing about the past, and not focusing enough on the present and future. If I can clear my mind, even for a little while, I think I can be successful.

I have an IC session today, and I may ask about getting on antidepressants. Before they didn't seem necessary, but now I'm not so sure. I don't have a problem with them at all, but I don't want them if I don't need them. We shall see.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, everyone. It helps to know some people are pulling for me. For us.

I noticed that she hasn't actually started wearing her wedding ring again like she said she would. Even though she said she was willing to work on things, she's struggling with second thoughts.

I think the contact with OM2 is responsible for this. Her addiction seems to be with the rush of being wanted by someone else.

When you have those really bad days - just tell your self over and over that you were warned it would happen, and you'll look at things in two weeks and see if you can see a trend.

Those bad days will come again. We hate it, but they will. You'll feel like giving up all over again.

Repeat it in your head "they told me this would happen, I need to keep running my plan, and look at this in two weeks."

Your W is still in withdrawl, and will be for a while. I'd talk about the lighthouse again, but I figure I should give you a rest. (grin.)

Hang in there.

Remember your energy is limited. Don't be afraid to back off from doing things for her and take some personal time.

"Honey, this is really taking a toll on me. I need some time to myself to kind of regroup. I'll be downstairs reading, please give me till 9 or so... OK?"

SS

Finally found a few moments to write...

It's not exactly clear why she won't wear her ring, but instead of speculating, I'm just going to ask her. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if she's trying to send a message and if so, what is it? I'm not sure if it has anything to do with OM2 or not. She's still in withdrawal from OM1, and she said she's moved from the grief stage to the anger stage. At him and at me and everything else. What I really need to do is talk to her and ask her about how she feels, instead of guessing.

What makes this difficult is that I have always had trouble bringing up topics that I fear she doesn't want to talk about. I carefully worded that statement, so I mean exactly what I said. I have had the problem for a long time; it stems from my upbringing. Confrontation is something I continually avoid even though I know it's necessary at times. It's fear-based of course: what if she gets mad and leaves me? I've experienced that dilemma in just about every relationship I've ever had, romantic or otherwise. I've never resolved it.

But now is a time that I absolutely cannot let it continue. I'm starting to address it in therapy, but it's still uncomfortable for me.

How frustrating it is to want to know so badly what she's feeling and thinking, yet never asking. So, why don't I just start asking questions? Mm-hmm. I'm going to try to do that the next couple of days and see what it leads to. She can always ask me to stop asking if she wants.

I appreciate the advice about backing off for my own good. I will file it away for future use, as I'm sure it will be valuable.

This post is all over the place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Oh well. A session with Steve Harley this afternoon. I'm sure I'll get some additional guidance from him.

I really appreciate everything you say. Thanks a bunch.

I am and continue to be ... a lighthouse.

Let us know how your session with Steve goes.

SS

I have to say, Steve is really good at what he does. That was an enormously helpful session. He changed my perspective on some things, and has a way of making hard questions seem easy.

It was good.

Some of the main points culled from the many we discussed:

• It's time for me to get on meds. I was considering it already, but now I know I really need to do it. More in preparation for how stressful this is going to get than treating what may currently be a low-level depression.
• WW and I need to set goals for what we want the end result of our recovery efforts to be. We have MC starting next week, and we need to establish what we want out of this before we set foot in the office.
• There is no such thing as unconditional love. This was a big eye-opener for me. Steve made a compelling logical case that convinces me without a doubt that it's true. There really is no such thing as an unconditional feeling of any kind. If this warrants further discussion, I'm open to it. I'm still getting my own brain wrapped around it though.
• The feeling of being in love is a product of how you are treated by a person. I found this an intriguing way to break down the core of what ENs and LBs are for.
• The big lesson for the day: No matter how hard I try or what I do, if WW fails to create the condition for me to fall in love with her, it won't happen. Basic cause and effect.

That and more besides gives me a lot to think about. Obviously, I have to start communicating with WW about some of these things. I know she's afraid and that she is trying to avoid it (so am I), but nothing will change if we keep doing what we're doing now. It's time for change.

I'm going to ask WW to talk to Steve as well. I think she might do it. I'm only going to ask her to do it one time, and if nothing else it will help him be more affective with me.

Am I forgetting anything? Other than to be a lighthouse? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Once we started to talk to Steve things have steadily been improving. If you can get your wife to talk to him DO IT. I've seen a lot of positive changes in my wife lately. Good luck!

It's hard when you approach it as "Marriage counseling by phone."

It's easier if you say something like "I am getting help by phone with Steve Harley from Marriage builders. He has some questions for you, on how to better help me. Will you talk to him about it, so I can get the help I need?"

It's good to have a little hope.

Is talkig to her about these things your next step?

SS

Yes, I'm planning on discussing this with her tonight, although some external family issues have cropped up that I may have to deal with (death in the family; distant relative to me, but my mother is pretty upset). If not tonight, then tomorrow.

I looked over an email she sent me earlier this week in response to me asking how she would feel about MC by phone:

[color:"blue"] I’d be open to talking to Steve, but ultimately I think it makes more sense for us to find someone in town who we could see on a more regular basis.[/color]

So I expect she'll be okay with it, but only in the capacity of helping him be more effective with me, which is all I'm going to ask for. I think she'll do it. I hope she will.

I'm also going to talk about what our goal is; what do we want when we say we are willing to work on our marriage? And I might ask about her wedding ring...

Thanks for the encouragement.

I initiated a talk tonight. I asked her if I could share some things that came up in my session with Steve and ask her some questions. I could tell she wasn't really wanting to do it, but she agreed to it anyway.

I started by asking her about the wedding ring. I asked if it was a message she was trying to send me. She said no message, but that she doesn't feel very comfortable wearing it when she is feeling so much ambivalence toward our marriage; that wearing it represented a promise she wasn't sure she could fulfill. I told her that to me it was a symbol that she was married. And that I wondered if she thought that by taking it off, she could just not be married any longer. To me, it was a symbol of her willingness to work this out, despite the misgivings. She asked if it bothered me, and I admitted that it did. I told her that doesn't mean she has to wear it. I should have told her that it was her decision, and not to just only wear it around me, and that she shouldn't do it just to please me. I only thought of that just now though.

I then told her about the need for us to figure out what we want out of this effort to fix our marriage. What is our goal? She said she had no idea. I described what I ultimately want, which is to be in love with the mother of my child, and her to be in love with me, and to know how to keep that love alive for the rest of our lives. This sort of thinking is inconceivable to her. Having the sort of close intimacy and companionship that I described is not something she's sure she wants, because those things, historically, cause her to feel very uncomfortable. She can't imagine what it's like to function in that type of relationship. This is what she has been discussing in her therapy. For years.

As far as goals go, she's struggling with whether or not she is "supposed to be alone for the rest of her life." She is willing to try to work this out, but only because she doesn't want to divorce without being able to say she tried (I know--at least she is being honest.) I asked her to think about it, and asked if we could talk about it some more over the next few days. I honestly don't think she is planning on sabotaging the counseling, I just think she doesn't believe it's going to help. (Yet!)

I told her some more about what Steve and I discussed in my session; about the non-existence of unconditional love, that initial love is created by filling needs, and long-term love is created by continuing to fill those needs. She didn't quite follow the EN stuff at first, but, in the spirit of honesty, I used the example of a woman that I met through work long ago, who filled my most important need of Admiration, which created a very strong attraction between the two of us. I had lunch with her once, and afterward decided that I couldn't see her anymore. It was just too tempting. WW always accused me of having a crush on her, but I always denied it. Admitting it tonight was good faith on my part I think. This started a very open and honest conversation about the needs that OM filled for her and her for him that caused the two of them to fall in love. She admitted that she knew exactly what to say to OM to make him fall in love with her. She would never have admitted it during the affair, but she now knows that he never stood a chance. She completely manipulated him into the affair. He held out for two months, saying that he still loved his wife and couldn't do it, but she kept at him until he eventually gave in. So after talking about it this way she got the idea of ENs (and I have something new to grapple with. Ugh.)

I also told her the most important thing I learned: No matter how hard I try or what I do, if she fails to create the condition for me to fall in love with her, it won't happen. And the same goes for me. I think she understood.

Then she asked about what the programs I've read are like; what is a program? I told her that I've read about two, and that they are very similar in content, but very different in style. I chose to describe the four rules for recovery from SAA. I did the best I could without sounding like an authority. I tried to create some mystery so she would want to uncover more.

After I described the rules, she agreed that if you spent a bunch of time together treating each other great, then, sure, you'd probably love each other. However, she still wasn't sure if that was the same as being in love. Basically, she feels like there is something magical that happens when you're in love. There's a spark or something, and that when the spark goes out, it's gone forever. She's not sure that it can be recovered. She did say "maybe I'm wrong," and I told her that I thought she was.

At this point, she was starting to get really tired, so I asked her if she would be willing to read one of the books, and she said yes. She was still slightly begrudging, but not like at the beginning of the conversation. When she got up to go to bed she said "was that intimacy? That wasn't so bad!" It was pretty funny.

Before she went to sleep I gave her SAA. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea, but between that and After the Affair, I felt we would get the most mileage out of SAA. I asked her to read the first two chapters of AtA anyway, because those were extremely helpful to me in understanding what I was feeling, and what she was feeling after D-day.

So that's it. Yeah, I never got around to asking if she would talk to Steve. I know it sounds crazy, but it really did slip my mind. I knew I was forgetting something (or somethings, hundreds of somethings), but I forgot until I logged on here. I can still ask her tomorrow, and I probably will.

She is going to a happy hour after work tomorrow for a co-worker's goodbye. I think it's legit and she told me OM won't be there. OM2 is still in the back of my mind though. I just keep reminding myself that there isn't anything I can do or say that will change whether she chooses to pursue a relationship with him or not. It's up to her, and if she does, she will be looking for a new place to live.

Okay enough. I have to try to get some sleep, too. I'm stressed out and worried, so it may be elusive. I guess this is what this is going to be like for awhile. I don't feel better about anything, but I guess I don't feel worse either. There is just SO much for us to work on, to talk about, to conquer, that tonight feels so insignificant. This is such a long long road.

I think the wedding ring discussion went well.

I should have told her that it was her decision, and not to just only wear it around me, and that she shouldn't do it just to please me. I only thought of that just now though.

Let me know when you're perfect, I haven't figured it out yet. Then tell me how you did it.

It's hard to get it all just right. I think you did really well. You can always go back and "I was thinking some more about you wearing your wedding ring. I should have told you........"

Communication is good. You can always communicate more about the same thing. Don't be afraid of trying it. The worst thing that could happen has already happened. You are not going to break something. (grin)

I then told her about the need for us to figure out what we want out of this effort to fix our marriage. What is our goal? She said she had no idea. I described what I ultimately want, which is to be in love with the mother of my child, and her to be in love with me, and to know how to keep that love alive for the rest of our lives. This sort of thinking is inconceivable to her.

Also good. It wouldn't hurt to say you don't want to go back to what was, but to create a new relationship that is much better.

Having the sort of close intimacy and companionship that I described is not something she's sure she wants, because those things, historically, cause her to feel very uncomfortable. She can't imagine what it's like to function in that type of relationship. This is what she has been discussing in her therapy. For years.

I don't understand why she doesn't want to feel TOO close to you, but she chased after OM. If this has been a problem for years, you can probably explain a little more in depth.
Is this a family thing, where her family didn't express love and emotion, or is this something else?

As far as goals go, she's struggling with whether or not she is "supposed to be alone for the rest of her life."

This is a statement often made when the person is confused by what has happened, and is looking for for things to say. To me, it means she knows she made a mess of this, and it's her way of saying she is sorry, and doesn't want it to happen again. Do you really believe she wants to be alone?
I don't.

She is willing to try to work this out, but only because she doesn't want to divorce without being able to say she tried (I know--at least she is being honest.) I asked her to think about it, and asked if we could talk about it some more over the next few days. I honestly don't think she is planning on sabotaging the counseling, I just think she doesn't believe it's going to help. (Yet!)

I think your take is accurate. It often takes two years to go from no feelings, to deep in love. I hope she will give you the time needed. I hope she will give HERSELF the time needed.

This started a very open and honest conversation about the needs that OM filled for her and her for him that caused the two of them to fall in love. She admitted that she knew exactly what to say to OM to make him fall in love with her. She would never have admitted it during the affair, but she now knows that he never stood a chance. She completely manipulated him into the affair. He held out for two months, saying that he still loved his wife and couldn't do it, but she kept at him until he eventually gave in. So after talking about it this way she got the idea of ENs (and I have something new to grapple with. Ugh.)

This part bothers me - though not as much as you, I am sure.
There is much I don't know about what happened. Why did she pick OM to go after?
Were her needs not being met, and he was good looking? Why would she do it on purpose?

I think you are going to need to understand this. If there is a "reason" for it that can be "fixed," you can have faith that it will never happen in the future. If not, you won't ever be able to trust she won't do it again.

I put quotes by reason, and fixed because there really is never a reason for adultry. There are things that lead a person to seek to have their needs met if thery are not being met. There are also personality flaws - I won't go into that in depth. I think you understand why I bring his up - Perhaps Steve discussed it with you.

Do you have an understanding of what her motivation was, and beleive it can be addressed?

I chose to describe the four rules for recovery from SAA. I did the best I could without sounding like an authority. I tried to create some mystery so she would want to uncover more.

After I described the rules, she agreed that if you spent a bunch of time together treating each other great, then, sure, you'd probably love each other. However, she still wasn't sure if that was the same as being in love.

I don't think you can give her all the information on it in a discussion. If she reads the material, it will help, but she has to accpet it as correct too.

Basically, she feels like there is something magical that happens when you're in love. There's a spark or something, and that when the spark goes out, it's gone forever. She's not sure that it can be recovered. She did say "maybe I'm wrong," and I told her that I thought she was.

You can also tell her that you believe it with all your heart, or you wouldn't waste your time. "Why would I be doing this, and trying to create a life with you if I thought we would never have a strong love? I can assure you, I wouldn't waste my time if that hope wasn't in my heart. I don't want an average marriage, or a living arrangement, I want a passionate marriage."

Again, in your own words, but it will tell her something she needs to hear from you, about your own feelings.

When she got up to go to bed she said "was that intimacy? That wasn't so bad!" It was pretty funny.

Sharing your heart means something to her?
We hope so. I can tell you are hoping it works.

Before she went to sleep I gave her SAA. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea, but between that and After the Affair, I felt we would get the most mileage out of SAA. I asked her to read the first two chapters of AtA anyway, because those were extremely helpful to me in understanding what I was feeling, and what she was feeling after D-day.

If she is wanting to try, it's probably good. If she is not, .......... well, if not, it may not make a bit of difference anyway.

HNHN is good too, for understanding about meetig needs.

I never got around to asking if she would talk to Steve. I know it sounds crazy, but it really did slip my mind. I knew I was forgetting something (or somethings, hundreds of somethings), but I forgot until I logged on here. I can still ask her tomorrow, and I probably will.

I think you did well. Really well.
Don't sweat the rest, do it as you are able.

She is going to a happy hour after work tomorrow for a co-worker's goodbye. I think it's legit and she told me OM won't be there. OM2 is still in the back of my mind though. I just keep reminding myself that there isn't anything I can do or say that will change whether she chooses to pursue a relationship with him or not. It's up to her, and if she does, she will be looking for a new place to live.

I still don't understand why she chased OM1. If she doesn't understand it either, bring it to her attention. Probably the same reason for OM2?

If she doesn't learn what's going on in her own head, she will be going from one guy the the next her whole life. That's a scary thought.

Okay enough. I have to try to get some sleep, too. I'm stressed out and worried, so it may be elusive. I guess this is what this is going to be like for awhile. I don't feel better about anything, but I guess I don't feel worse either. There is just SO much for us to work on, to talk about, to conquer, that tonight feels so insignificant. This is such a long long road.

It will be this way for a while. That's why you run the plan. It's why you give yourself points for runing the plan, not for how she reacts. Do the snoopy dance for how you did yesterday. You get extra points.

Smile when you read this, take credit for doing well in a difficult situation. Keep on doing it - what else can you do until you know which way she will go?

I have to leave, and don't have time to proof. Please forgive errors. I don't get paid to spell.

SS

We've talked every night and some during the day. For the most part it has gone well, but I'm surprised how I feel afterwards. For some reason, I thought I would feel better, but that's not how it works. It creates all kinds of emotions,and for every point discussed, ten new questions come up.

Friday night, she told me I could ask anything I wanted about the affair. I told her there was a lot that I didn't want to know, at least not yet. But I asked how it happened, and I asked about OM2, and how that happened. The answers I got were enlightening, and I have a little more insight into what her mind was doing during those times. I might go into more detail later, but right now I'm short on time.

Friday she had an appointment with her psychiatrist (not her therapist) and WW said it was helpful. About the wedding ring: she doesn't feel comfortable wearing it because she sees it as a symbol of the marriage we used to have, a marriage she doesn't want to recreate. If we were to recommit at some point she would feel better about it. For some reason, that made me feel stupid for wearing mine, so I've stopped wearing mine too. I'm still thinking about this. It's a little confusing, and I don't know how I feel. In regards to what our goal is with marriage counseling: Where before she was just doing it for no real reason other than to say she tried (which of course isn't trying at all) she now has made her goal "getting to know who I am." Her psych told her she should take the opportunity to talk to me and listen and discover who it is that she married.

This isn't perfect, but I guess compared to her original goal, it's progress. I told her my goal was for us to be in love and have what we both would call a wonderful marriage. I also told her it felt stupid to have such a lofty goal when she's just trying to find a reason to go. She said that, sure, it would be great if that happened, but because it seems so unlikely to her, it's hard to aim at that. After some consideration, I've decided to stick with my goal, but we are definitely going in with different expectations.


She never thought they would actually be very close, and doesn't believe they ever were. She never thought that the affair would actually happen until it did. Every escalation was something of a surprise, certainly welcomed, but so built up in fantasy that the closeness they shared was pretty artificial. She thinks the same thing about our relationship too, I think. We didn't date for very long before getting married, and got pregnant right away. Our honeymoon was intensely exciting and romantic, but in truth, because we didn't know each other very well, not all that different than what occured with OM.

All of her relationships have been this way. Because she won't let me (or anyone) get too close to her, and she won't let herself get too close to me, we've had a marriage that was based primarily on getting along, not growing together.

If that makes any sense...

As for why she chased him, that's something we're working on. She isn't able to give me a clear answer that she is sure is right, other than she was attracted to him, and he made her feel really good about herself. She admits there is more to it than that, but she isn't sure what it is.

I can see why people say recovery is harder. I thought this was ridiculous at first, but now I see it's an accurate assessment. Once you decide to recover, there is this expectation (for the BS) that you're going to be on equal footing, and that you're starting at the same place and working together. NONE of those things are true. Not in this case anyway. So far, this has been demoralizing. I've been getting more depressed, and keeping with the Plan is harder than ever.

Gotta run.

I had to end that before i was properly finished.

So, to continue:

I'm taking antidepressants and I have some anti-anxiety meds, too. The ADs haven't kicked in yet, and I haven't felt particularly anxious yet, but it's there when I need it. That helps. We didn't talk much yesterday, we just hung out together with DD. DD is being very difficult. At 30 months next week, I suppose this is what they call the terrible twos. Until about a week ago, she's been 75% little angel. Now she's 75% little devil. So we spent much of our time placating her (which is fun in its own way).

The thing that's confusing about the affair for me is that if WW thinks our marriage was bad because we weren't communicating, we weren't close, then why is a fear of intimacy what's causing the problems? This actually makes no sense. If she's afraid to get too close to me, the way we were interacting before the affair should have been satisfactory. It wasn't for me, of course, but I never did anything about it. This is something I'll try to bring up in MC on Thursday.

I'm wondering if the discomfort in the marriage (from WWs perspective) stems from her losing her attraction to me? The desire for physical intimacy practically disappeared after DD was born and it took a long time for us to get it back. When we did it wasn't the same. Outside stresses were affecting our ability to connect sexually. (And why am I seeing this clearly now? Whether this is accuarate for her or not, I think it's accurate for me.) This got to the point where I believe she just wasn't attracted to me any longer, she couldn't express it to me without hurting me, and she started thinking seriously about ending our marriage. That's probably when she started paying a lot more attention to OM2 (who actually was first) and OM.

That's a lot of idle specualtion on my part, but for some reason it fits. It would fit what I know about her past relationships. She stays while it's new and exciting. She leaves when the excitement wears off.

Why does she do this? That's another question entirely. I don't have those answers, and I'm not even sure this is what happened.

Okay, that's it for now. Thanks for listening. Any thoughts or suggestions are always appreciated.

Rough day yesterday.

Minor pregnancy scare is really f'ing me up. Still don't know for sure. WW has IUD, but it's possible although extremely unlikely that she is pregnant. She's going to test today. This would definitely be OM's child.

It doesn't matter to me that the chance is 1:1000 or whatever it is, just the possibility threw me into chaos. I tried to maintain it (lighthouse ... lighthouse ... lighthouse) but it showed, and WW, who was already in a cranky mood, started talking.

So we had another talk. WW feels scrutinized and it really irritates her. Whether she is in a bad mood or we have a good night together, I keep trying to attach meaning to everything. Everything she does, I'm attaching meaning to, and it makes her feel scrutinized. I told her I didn't know how to stop doing it, but that the more she tells me what she's feeling, I don't have to guess. That doesn't mean I'm going to believe her (that's another issue), but I'll do my best. I asked her what she wanted, or what could I do to help alleviate the scrutiny she feels, and she didn't really know. She said it was probably normal, and that maybe that's what being married is about.

She has started reading After an Affair and the first chapter (which is about the "hurt partner's" pain is pretty hard for her. She admitted that she has been blocking that out, and showing contempt for me in order to prevent herself from facing what she has done to me. She knows that one day she'll have to face that, but right now it's hard for her.

We talked about some other stuff I think, but I was pretty stressed out and I had taken a Xanax, so I was a little out of it.

MC on Thursday. I'm alternately excited and scared to death. WW asked why I was nervous, and I told her that I was afraid of what we were going to say, and afraid of saying it in front of each other. I think that's what I'm afraid of.

Not pregnant. Thank god.

Glad you don't have to cope with that too.


Tell her you've never done this before, so it's going to be a rough road.

If you both make it - think of what a good life you can have with someone you have been through he11 with - and made it to the other side.

I sense the frustration - remember your options are still there.

Lets see how Thursday goes - I hope the MC is a good one.

MC on Thursday. I'm alternately excited and scared to death. WW asked why I was nervous, and I told her that I was afraid of what we were going to say, and afraid of saying it in front of each other. I think that's what I'm afraid of.

This is going to work, or it will not. Stay clear headed, keep your goal in mind. Run your plays.

Listen to what goes on, don't spend your time thinking what you will say. Listen to your W, listen to the MC. Think about what is being said in context with what you already know. Try to fit the peices together as you listen.

If the MC doesn't help much - think on it after you leave. You are the lighthouse, you figure out if this works for you, and how it fits with your recovery efforts. Don't react if bad things are said, or happen.

In other words, go and do your best, but don't have high excpetations - and don't come apart if it goes badly.

It's one evening in an effort that will span months of time.
OK?

I think you are doing well considering all that is happening. NO ONE RUNS A PERFECT PLAN.
You play the odds - and do a little better tomorow than you did today.

Find ways to make her laugh. Laughter is a good ice breaker. Put that in your plan this week.

SS

How did the MC go?

SS

Marriage counseling went okay. It was a typical first session, I think. We spent a lot of time getting MC up to speed, and then she asked us if we wanted to talk about working on our relationship, or did we want to talk about the affair.

I chose affair. I told WW that I was having a very difficult time trusting her, that I felt like she wasn't invested in working on our marriage and I was afraid that she was seeking another relationship outside our marriage. I told her that I feel like [email]cr@p[/email] having to watch her every move and wonder what's going on in her secret world.

WW told me that she didn't know what she wanted and that she was there to find out if she wanted to be married to me. She assured me was not looking for a relationship with someone else.

MC said that that was good, because if she was, or if she was still trying to be with OM, that working on our M was fruitless.

All good I guess. I mentioned that each day I ask what WW has planned so that I can feel reassured that she's being honest with me. MC suggested that she offer that information to me instead, so it wouldn't feel like I was surveilling her. She asked WW if she understood why this was important to me, and she said she did.

I told WW that I wanted to trust her, and that I intended to try to trust her, but that I couldn't honestly say "from here on out I trust you." So I was going to commit to making a concerted effort to start giving her my trust.

She committed to not being secretive about any other relationship that she might find herself involved in, and to let me know when there is something going on. I was a little disappointed that she wasn't committing not to have a relationship with another man, just that she wouldn't do it behind my back.

That was pretty much the extent of it. I like our MC, she seems very smart and insightful. We made plans to go again next week.

So here's the rub: I think she actually is developing another relationship. It's an old friend this time and he;'s single. I read an email exchange (this was before MC) between them that is very flirty on both sides, talking about how she's so sure that our marriage isn't going to work, and how she would love to have a running partner. They are going to meet on Sunday morning to run together, and checking the mileage on the car, I think she's made a couple of side-trips that could be to meet him, but I don't really know. Sometimes I think I'm imagining things. I hate this feeling.

So she hasn't mentioned it at all. There is also a fellow at work that is a friend of OMs. They have been chatting frequently and they are having lunch at a nice restaurant on Tuesday. This guy I'm not too worried about. She has mentioned him before and I don't get the sense that he's someone she's truly interested in. However, I could be wrong.

So basically it boils down to this: my WW is acting like she's single. She's dating.

I don't know why I didn't say anything about this at MC. I will next time if nothing is said before then. Frankly, I want an impartial observer to see what I mean when I say she lies like she breathes: without thinking about it, it just happens naturally.

Not really sure what I think about all this. Boundaries need to be set if we're going to continue working on this and one of those boundaries has to be NO DATING. Right now, I'm focusing my attention on my DD and being cordial to WW. She is busy with work. She even asked if I would take DD to my mom's for the weekend so she could get some work done (right.) That received a big fat no for multiple reasons.

Any suggestions? Should I confront her about it? Should I trap her? By that I mean ask questions that I know the answers to to see if she lies. I've been doing that frequently, and it drives her crazy. But, the only way to determine the truth is from the lies she tells. If she lies, I know it's something that she doesn't want me to know about, something I wouldn't like, and something she knows she shouldn't be doing. If she is doing anything like that, she's not working on our marriage.

Should I wait until MC next week? Should I just stick to the plan? Should I kick her out of the house? Call my lawyer?

I'm really starting to hate her.

Oh man, the days when every little thing needed a thesis so that the BS can somehow figure out what is about to happen...

NYS, I'm so sorry that you are where you are. My advice for you right now, ease up a bit. You can not fix this quick. Part of it is time. Right now she is reading books that will help her fix her. Wait til she has a chance to finish them and dwell on the content. Her road is self-admittedly a scary one. She doesn't want to face the hurt she caused you...someday, she will. Odds are, based on your description of her, it will be very quick and short lived for you, but agonozing for her. It will probably be "I'm so sorry for what I've done." and that will be it. She will expect for you to understand, that is the end of it, and she can't go back into that world again.... and then, one day, one of her girlfriends husbands will leave them, because he is having an affair. Then she will live that pain vicariously through her friend, and see what she did to you first hand, outside of the fog they were in while they were in the affair and going through withdrawl.

So, you just need some patience here. The whole ring thing clearly shows to me she is still not committed to the marriage 100% (not surprisingly), but it also has me concerned. You have 'given' your permission to not wear it. I know we don't control our spouse, but, remember here, you have your own rights. It doesn't matter if you want to return to what your marriage was before or not, guess what, YOU NEVER GET TO GO BACK THERE ANYWAYS. But, your wife is your wife, she's the one you married, for better and worse. If you two want to get new rings, great, but do it together, from a perspective of vitory and celebration of your recovered marriage, as an anniversary present to each other...put your ring back on. You are married, and to not have it on, unless your profession dictates otherwise, says you are playing the field.

Oh, and personally, stay away from the details. Get what you MUST know, which you already know, she had sex. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter. If you feel you must ask a graphic question, write it down, put it in your wallet folded up nice and small, and 3 months later, open it up and re-evaluate if you really still need to know it. If you do, then go ahead and ask it, remember, once it's said, it's on the table for the rest of your life. For some people, it's liberating knowing, for others, it ruins them. You decide how well you handle negative and bad things.

-hang in there