Thanks Mulan for your comment on Milkshake's thread. I've followed your links, and they make for very sobering reading. I've suspected my STBXH is passive-aggressive for some time now, and this confirms it without a doubt for me.

I have two questions:

* First of all, does the PA person really seek to hurt the partner? I've had my STBXH do SO many out and out hurtful things. One of the symptoms of his A has been that he's not PA any more but downright aggressive without provocation, but now that I'm in Plan B his actions have gone underground. It FEELS like he's trying to hurt me, or at least trying to "impact" me in some way, and everyone around me tells me that's what it looks like, too. However, people here have told me not to read such actions for meaning, eg. "Don't assume malice when stupidity will suffice" (a quote I love, btw). However, am I understanding the reading material correctly in thinking that STBXH isn't actually stupid and selfish, but deliberately trying to impact me?

* Second: the links are great, but both of them deal with LIVING with a PA. How do we deal with PAs when we are living apart? I'm in Plan B at the moment, and pretty much ignoring him all round, but he is STILL trying to impact me. I have no idea how to proceed.

Thoughts?

Hi Tam,
I also found them very sobering reading indeed. But very glad I found them.


I'm hardly an expert at this, but the way I understand it - YES. They DO mean to hurt you. And my mistake for *years* was operating from the assumption that he did not want to hurt me and there must be some other explanation for his very cruel behavior.

There is no other explanation. They do mean to hurt you and they mean to hurt you so they can keep you off-balance and looking the other way while they do what they want without consequence and keep all the control and power in the relationship for themselves.

This is explained quite well in one of the links within the "Passive/Aggressive" thread over on In Recovery.

Here is part of it:

"While it is difficult to be a partner of a man who continually frustrates you with his passive/aggressive behavior, there are some things than a woman can do to break into his noninvolvement pattern.

When the partner understands the problem and attacks it with determination using straight talk, some of the man's irritating behavior can change. Depending upon the severity of the passive/aggressive stance, small inroads can be made. However, there is no easy cure for this life long habit.

Here are some ideas for fair fighting which are especially helpful for dealing with passive/aggressive behavior. Note--this is no easy task. It takes hard work to be direct and straight to the point at all times.

Watch how you hook in. Observe your unrealistic expectations for him to change. Don't demand more than he can willingly give. Hire out projects you think he won't carry through on. Get realistic--try to figure out where he can realistically change and what is set in stone for him.

Set firm limits for yourself. Stick to them like glue. State them repeatedly.

Use ‘I messages' to share feelings of disappointment.

Don't protect him from your unhappy feelings.

Accept no excuses when he says he couldn't help it. Tell him that it is a choice he made. (Yes - it IS deliberate. Mulan)

Tell him how his behavior injures or affects others. Ask him if he would like to be treated this way.

When he says he forgot, point out that he remembers things that are important to him. Ask him how he would feel if you forgot to do things important to him.

Ask him to be honest and SAY that he doesn't want to do what you asked.

Make fewer demands on him and only ask for what you absolutely need.

Point out how he distorts the truth and discounts problems that he creates.

Use gentle, direct confrontation. Don't humor, placate or make excuses for his behavior.

Challenge double messages and ambiguous plans.

Point out his indirect non-answers and fence-sitting statements.

Pin him down on his confusing the issue to save his skin.

When he blames you for not trusting him or says he can't trust you, point out how he has betrayed your trust in the past.

Tell him trust must be earned and you would like greater trust between the two of you.

Ask him for a plan to build trust (doing what he says he will do, stop saying yes when he knows he won't get around to doing what you want, etc.)

If he flares up and blames you when you give this information, ask him to look at his feeling put down when given information. Point out his pattern of needing to sulk and how that makes the problems worse.

Tell him, ‘I feel the hostility in your walling yourself off. There is nothing we can't talk about. We can work this out if we keep it on the table. Let's talk.'

Call his attention to every attempt to manipulate or control you through anger. His anger is expressed through withdrawal, ignoring you, sarcasm, irritability, intimidation and threats of abandonment.

Learn to deal with your own anger in appropriate ways. Observe your anger reactions, which fuel his determination to out wit you with passivity.

Nagging and reopening the subject make things worse. Drop it and move on.

Remember that the incorrect expression of anger is at the root of both his and your issues. Your choice daily is to state your anger in direct, firm, fair ways.

Challenge the silent treatment by saying ‘When you refuse to talk with me, I get upset. Both of us angry is poison for our relationship. When you don't talk to me, I make wild assumptions that further distance us.

"We are two intelligent people who can talk this out. What do we really want in our relationship--angry silence or problem solving?'

Ask for compromises as a way for the relationship to win. State your compromise, ask him for his.

Insist on his making an offer to resolve the problem if he doesn't like your ideas. Keep the focus on problem solving.

Point out that true partnerships work with each other as focused allies working on the issue.

Demonstrate how his nonclosure of a chronic problem and his noninvolvement affects him, you and the relationship. Keep pushing the concept that the two of you can overcome any problem.

Resources:
Living With the Passive/aggressive Man: Coping with the Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression From the Bedroom to the Boardroom, Scott Wetzler, Ph. D. Simon & Schuster, New York, ($10) l992.


Sure. He's not in control any more. He is having to ramp up the bad behavior in order to provoke an angry or even hysterical response from you so he can feel in control.

Just be prepared and don't let anything he does catch you by surprise. It could get way worse before it gets better.


IMHO, "normal" people can be given the benefit of the doubt. But P/As, especially those who have been at it for a long time, know exactly what they are doing.

One site I read said that this is often how P/As get away with their behavior for so long. Their spouses can't believe it's deliberate and keep looking for some other answer. The site said, "It can be hard to believe that your partner is being cruel for no other reason than to gain an advantage over you."

But it's true. And I think that once you can accept that, you can either take steps to deal with the problem or at least have the peace of mind to get away.


I'm guessing that you just do the standard Plan B but expect some pretty horrible behavior in an attempt to shock a reaction from you. This could range from coldly ignoring you to showing up on your doorstep with his girlfriend - whatever he thinks will best push your buttons.

P/As hate to be ignored, as this takes all the control away from them. They are actually most comfortable if their partner is angry, crying, begging or pleading, because that gives all the power and control in the relationship to the P/A.

It's sad and it's sick, but there it is. I just wish I had understood this earlier.

Once you understand that yes it IS deliberate and yes they ARE trying to hurt you, it all makes sense.

Please give a shout out to TruBluz, Silverpool and Loving Anyway - they've been posting a lot on that In Recovery thread and know much more about this than I do.

Good luck.
Mulan

Omigosh! Omigosh omigosh OMIGOOOOOOSH!

Wow Mulan, that's a heckuva post, pure gold. Again - VERY sobering because I am now looking at my M through a microscope that I didn't have before, but I definitely want to know this stuff.

Thanks so much. I'll give TruBluz, Silverpool and LA a hoi, too, and hopefully they'll weigh in as well.

RiverTam - here is another link that I found useful. It's a bit clinical, but really hits the mark:

http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/index.php

Mulan

Thanks Mulan, I'll go check it out now.

I'm here, RT...I don't know what I can tell you. You are in Plan B...correct?

Would reviewing your marriage under your new microscope help you?

Lemme know. I'm here.

LA

Hi LA, thanks for coming in. No, I'm not looking at this new "microscope" as any kind of help. It's just that for better or worse, when our spouses go AWOL it just makes you reassess what you had. This is part of it for me.

But my questions aren't about this. Basically I was just interested in whether I understood correctly, that P/As are intentionally cruel; Mulan has answered that one, and it appears that I did understand. My second question, the one I'm still not sure about, is about how this relates to Plan B (which I'm currently in). I'm keeping dark, but STBXH STILL tries to impact me here and there. I just need to know how to handle this. At the moment, I'm just ignoring these things. I ignore EVERYTHING that's not about the house and finances. Is this OK?

But there are other things he's doing that aren't so easy to ignore. For example, I found out the other day that he let himself into the house and took a whole bunch of important documents away, including my passport. He hedged and hedged (and lied) to avoid "getting into trouble", and returned the documents that day. Now that I know a bit more, I realize that what he did was totally P/A, from go to whoa. Now, I've just asked him for a whole bunch of papers for the financial settlement, and he's taking his own sweet time about it. It wouldn't surprise me if I had to push. So how am I meant to handle this kind of thing? Obviously it cannot be ignored, you know?

I know about him coming in when you made it boundary not to...I read your thread...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, P/A behavior...no ownership...dodging blame...consequences..."Oh, was I not supposed to do that?" Whenever you detect that inner child, most likely, you're seeing P/A behavior..with adult permissions. That's how I see it.

NOT mothering that child is how I suggest you deal with it. I think you have way too much communication as it is, Tam...honestly...for doing dark...darker...

Only through lawyers (pushing for financial settlement papers) and third-party friends...

Which leads me to ask you...have you identified any P/A behaviors in yourself? Are you in Plan B to save your marriage...or are you in Plan D? I respect either choice...knowing which one, in all honesty, you truly desire may effect what I advice I would give you.

I mention the microscope because you said it..." VERY sobering because I am now looking at my M through a microscope that I didn't have before, but I definitely want to know this stuff."

I'm a big believer in self-investigation...so there was no bash in my microscope...just another gadget to examine with...and I'm behind all your examination...though, from reading the P/A thread today, you may want to take me off your call out...and that's okay with me. I remember the shock of learning my H was P/A...and how everything looked different to me...in a heartbeat.

LA

P.S. About the cruelty...did you see my "Owning All Your Villagers Thread"? That word triggers that thought in me, every time.

Another P/A thing I picked up on is something my sister alerted me to. She said, "How long has he had that stuff? And what exactly what he waiting for to return it to you?" She thought it was being found out. Then he could have his moment of glee, and quickly return them to me after telling me he "inadvertently took them".



Sure. I just don't know how much less contact. Right now I am contacting him about nothing that's not the children, and a couple of legal things as we get to the settlement stage.



No. Never. I'm very much out there, totally open, and loathe manipulation, particularly manipulation of this type. I read that Boomerang article and that was me: the enabler. The tough guy.



I'm in Plan B to save my marriage. The D is his idea, but it's all systems go. Plus, funnily enough, not many people here at MB have supported my decision to continue in Plan B after the D. Many of them think it's pointless. Maybe this attitude is starting to affect me? I don't know. Good question. Hmmm...



Oh, no, I totally understand there was no bash in you using my word. Like you, the scales have fallen from my eyes and WHOA! Everything instantly looks totally different. Something is moving into position inside and suddenly the prospect of saving my marriage means things that I wasn't aware of before.

I haven't read the P/A thread today so don't know what's going on, but I really appreciate your input in any case.


I started reading the thread the other day, and then when I saw how profound it was I thought, "I need to get back to it after my exams!" Healing, and forgiving, is of utmost importance to me, so I'll get to it very soon.

P.S. I've got another quick question: have any of you experienced that during the A, their P/A spouses got rid of their passiveness and just got all-out aggressive? Attacking without provocation? Mine did. And called it "finally standing up" to me.

I go back to your Plan B strategy of only having contact in certain areas...still contact. See, it would be interesting to have that filter now, especially in understanding the P/A stuff...of a third-party. Had you set up one for all (notice ALL though I didn't capitalize?) communication to go through...what would that distance give you from the P/A?

As I've read you over time, I see you're very open to new perspectives...it was my damaged filter (just for now) asking about the microscope...

So I'm being bold asking you to consider putting a third-party into place, getting set on really saving your marriage...which includes, him dragging his feet as a GOOD thing...lol...and staying dark, contemplative...out of contact...which is not allowing his influence on your life for now...just yours.

Asking for, tracking and requiring are all motheresque behaviors to P/A's...stopping these in me made a difference...in me.

He wants the divorce...then he can pursue me for stuff...and yeah, changing locks is a really good thing to do as a boundary enforcement.

Hey, that was my question...when he returned the papers...what was your boundary enforcement? Did I miss it?

LA

OK, gotcha. More food for thought!

And there was no boundary enforcement. I was at a loss. I hadn't planned for such a thing - EVER - and the only thing I could think to do was call him on it. He wrote:

"S16 told me you asked whether or not I had him take any certifcates for me from the house. I have not asked the kids to take anything for me.

I am guessing you want the red genealogy folder with the certificates and passports. I do have it. You have asked not to go to the house unannounced or uninvited and I don't. There have been times . . 5, 6? months ago when I rang (I think I spoke to D18 because you preferred not to talk, can't remember really. . ) to say I was coming and got comics, books, other "things". . . and my genealogly things. Sorry, I inadvertantly have both your and S11's passports. I hope I have not caused an upset. I will remove the genealogy stuff this afternoon and send the folder home with D18 tonight. . ."

And I replied:

"Thank you explaining the fate of the important documents such as our marriage certificate, sealing certificate, birth certificates, baptism/confirmation certificates, passports and so on. Nonetheless, regardless of whether or not I would have 'preferred to talk', the documents were still in the filing cabinet for a considerable time after 30th December, and I would like to refer you to my letter on 30th December 2005, in which I wrote, 'Please do not come to the house or the property unannounced, and do not enter as you did on December 24 without knocking or being allowed in by me.' And again on 22nd February: 'Please respect my earlier request and do not come into the house without being allowed by me, or come to our home or property unannounced.' And again on 8 June: 'the conditions of my letter on December 30 stand'. Please return these documents as soon as possible, as they are very important to me. If you would like copies, I would be happy to make them for you. Similarly, please let me know if there is anything else you need or want, and I will do my best to accommodate you. Please do not come to our home or property unannounced, and do not enter the house or flat without my express permission."


The only thing that was suggested to me was putting a restraining order on him, but this seemed really harsh to me. So OK, I'm at a loss here. This is SO new to me, I have no idea what I'm doing.

I read this on your thread...I remember...and here's what I saw...

In your reply...you tell him what he already knows. Step by step. As if you are giving evidence of why he should know it...rather than trusting, he does. He knows. One of the crazymaking aspects of P/A is our choice to believe them when they say, "I didn't know...I thought you meant...I didn't understand...I forgot."

You catalogued all his violations...with no enforcements in place. You told him step by step his infringements...what did you want to prove? What was already known and true? I ask for you to find your payoff, your intent...both are yours.

He returned them. You offered to make copies for him...he could have made them for himself...consider you saying that and why...making that offer...and still, at the end of your email, another reiteration of the boundary with no enforcement.

Now, you know this can happen...up to you to have progressive boundary enforcements.

Learning about respect, boundaries and enforcements was all new to me, too...I was at a loss. You're not alone. I was stunned at how much I had no idea of...

"The Verablly Abusive Relationship" Patricia Evans...helped. I read so many books...and you're doing exams, so I'm not saying have this all done yesterday...but here's my list...out of order...

Influential books (I know you know Harley's):

Between Parent and Child...I forget the author.
Healing the Shame that Binds Us by John Bradshaw
Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman
Fighting For Your Marriage...Howard Markman, et. al.
Boundaries in Marriage...Cloud and Townsend.
Facing Love Addiction...I forgot the author! Dang it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Caring Enough to Confront
Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends
Homecoming: Healing our Wounded Inner Child by John Bradshaw
Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work...Gottman.

Know what I learned through this list? That I wasn't crazy, alone...I was common as dirt and I loved that...I found acceptance, new perspectives, power and limits...I now have a difficult time remembering what I did when...all that information pouring in...just wanted to hand you a lot of hope...these people writing these books come from love...knowledge...hard-earned wisdom...and finding out that they are dedicated to all of us getting there lifts me up to this day...

Please consider on more emails, phone calls...contact. How is this healing you? Finding your way, saving your love? Is it not a continuation of interaction patterns? If it isn't, then where's your benefit...where's your protection?

One way I realized I self-betrayed, was in proving my truth to others...it was mine. No proof required. A signal.

LA

Whew. OK. Thanks, LA. I've got so many pennies dropping the din is deafening!


Good question. I guess I wanted to tell him. "I know you're lying." And I wanted him to know that I was putting my foot down. Again!

Ach - what a bloody idiot! So... OK, hypothetically speaking, what would you have done in my position if your FWH had done this? And this might sound like a stupid question, but... am I meant to imagine these scenarios happening in future and have some consequences for him trespassing my boundaries up my sleeve?


I did this because of what my atty said. After this happened I was on the phone like a shot because I didn't know how to proceed. I have to be very careful about doing anything that he might tell the courts makes me "unstable". According to our laws, he did not break any laws by coming here and helping himself: it's his house, and his documents (except for the passports). The atty (not the one I normally deal with, but his assistant) suggested sending him a nice e-mail asking for them back and offering to make copies. It was damage control, basically. And I had to be "nice". I didn't want to be nice. I was all up for being fair, mind you, but if it had been up to me, fairness at that time would have included coming down like a ton of bricks (minus the restraining order).


OK... how? Which one of the list of books (very impressive, btw, thank you) and online articles would you suggest to help me with this?

Sigh... as I consider the fact that I know NOTHING about progressive boundary enforcements I am left aghast because this reflects just what our M was like. He'd trespass a boundary. I'd ask him not to. He'd do it again. I'd ask him not to again. And ad nauseam until BLAM! I reacted angrily and THEN it got done as he went into little boy mode to make mom happy. Argh! I only know how to blow up! Aaaaaarrrrrgh!

No, that's not exactly true. I do have NORMAL relationships, and funnily enough, I don't blow up with anyone else. Still... I am just reeling from all this new info. And SO glad I'm not alone.



No need to consider further, LA. I'm decided: I'm going to get an intermediary. I'll have a heck of a time finding one that is neutral, given that he's left just about all the people we knew together behind, but I'll find someone if it gives me a nosebleed.

Thank you so much. This has been a HUGE day for me. As Mr. Gumby would say, "My brain hurts!"

RT,

Yes WW says "I have newfound confidence" and then proceeds to beat me over the head with it. Not a problem, I have a metal umbrella and it just rolls off.

***You catalogued all his violations...with no enforcements in place. You told him step by step his infringements...what did you want to prove? What was already known and true? I ask for you to find your payoff, your intent...both are yours.***

I'll respond to this one if I may, because I've done similar things.

As you alluded to earlier, LA, and as I have also read in a few of the on-line articles, the P/A gets away with this for so long and the spouse gets so insane because the spouse does NOT want to believe - really, just CAN'T believe - that this stuff is deliberate. We never even go there. We never even consider it. How could such a thing be possible??

So, instead, we search frantically for some other explanation. He must not understand me. I must not be making myself clear. He just doesn't understand. I have to keep trying to get through to him. He couldn't possibly understand the pain he is causing or else he would never do this stuff.

I submit that this is why *I* have done stuff like this. And a few days ago, when I finally realized that yes dear gods it IS deliberate, it was like nighttime suddenly turning to day.
Mulan

RiverTam:

I have no experience with separation/Plan B with a P/A spouse, so I can't really speak to your question from experience in that specific situation. So, I'll just share some general thoughts.

To start, I think you have to understand that everybody uses passive/aggressive tactics sometimes. What I am going to talk about is people who use P/A tctics pretty much universally.

The first time we saw our marriage counselor she told us that an affair is a passive-aggressive act. It is a covert attempt to gain personal power at the expense of your spouse. I have come to believe that, too.

My husband also was more openly aggressive during his affair, which really isn't that surprising. An affair gives a passive-aggressive WS an unaccustomed feeling of power. Power makes you feel bold, and you generally act the way you feel. P/A people generally feel power-less and therefore vulnerable, and so they try to fly below the radar.

I think there are three keys to understanding passive-aggressive people.

First, P/A people operate out of fear in just about all their on-going relationships. The fear is of being powerless, or over-powered by someone else. Their reaction is almost always to try covertly to control the person they view as trying to control them (hope you could follow that.)

Second, they are people who cannot say no to a request or express anger openly, and need you to do it for them. This inability to express anger also can include an obsessive need to avoid conflict. But not all P/As are conflict avoiders all the time.

And third, they are people who are this way because of the way they were treated in childhood. It becomes their worldview. They believe that people are out to control them, as their parent(s) did. They believe that doing what other people want means they are being controlled. They are wedded so completely to this belief that they paradoxically and unconsciously create controlling relationships in adulthood.

But they cannot recreate this pattern alone. They need a partner, one who will fit into that pattern. Some people say they need an enemy, and I guess that is somewhat true. What they really need is a tyrant, or more exactly, a tyrannical parent.

In almost all cases, a P/A person finds a spouse who has characteristics that remind them of the person who controlled them in childhood. It may be just the tiniest kernel of similarity to the "bad parent", but it is enough to hang all his fears on.

There was something in you, and me and all the rest of us long-time P/A spouses that enabled them to visualize us as controlling and then recreate this pattern with us. And conversely, something in their P/A behavior that matched up to something in us.

Now, that something in us was probably not as destructive as the passive-aggressive behavior. At least not in the beginning. But by the time you have spent years with a P/A spouse, you have been changed. And not in a good way.

My analogy is a hook and eye. I believe that both people bring to marriage attributes that work with the attributes of their spouse. It's what attracts us to our spouses to begin with. In my marriage, one of the hooks my H brought to the marriage was p/a behavior. The eye that it linked up to in me is my reactionary nature.

He needed someone to react for him, and I needed someone to react to. He needed someone who equated compliance with love, as I did, so that he could have someone to rebel against. We fit together perfectly in the dysfunctional and disfiguring dance that was our marriage.

His P/A actions have fueled my hurt and anger and desire to change him. My hurt and anger and desire to change him fueled his fears and therefore worsened his P/A actions. It is a circular escalaction. When the cycle has gone on for years, it changes both people.

After twenty years together, I was not just reactionary, I was explosive and controlling. And my husband was so tuned into his P/A thought patterns that he could see a request to pass the cream as an attempt to control. And a reason to punish. And yes, he did punish. It took me a long time to believe this, but I know it now to be true because he admitted it himself.

You could have shown a video of us to an intro psych course and it would have illustrated the concepts of projection and projective identification perfectly. And it would have also shown how ingrained and difficult those patterns are to break on both sides.

River, if your H is seriously P/A and you have been with him a while, you can be almost completely sure there is an answering mechnism in you that needs to be addressed. I don't know what the "eye" is in you specifically, but I know it's there. It's what the hook of his P/A behavior linked up to in you. And living with him for alll these years has undoubtedly twisted that thing in you as it did in me. And you want to work on that, whether you remain married, or divorce. It is the only part of this that you can change.

As to how to deal with him? I would suggest that the whole point of Plan B as I understand it is that you not deal with him. So don't. Let lawyers or an adult internmediary handle all interactions (keep the kids out of it, too, as much as possible.)

If you can, I would change the locks on the house. If that is not legally advisable, I would remove everything of yours from the house that he could manipulate to get a reaction out of you, particularly anger. My whole focus in dealing with him would be not to react in any "feeling" way at all. To give him no reaction whatsoever. Don't feed that need in him.

I think Plan B is a great opportunity for you to work on yourself and learn to be less reactive to him. If you are in therapy now, start exxploring that. If not, and you can start, do it. This is a great time to work to break that reactive/manipulative pattern. For yourself.

As to boundaries. I had none, either. That comes from my childhood. I am developing some now. My favorite book on this topic is Boundaries by Ann Katherine.

Hope this helps somehow.

TruBluz

Mulan:

That last post of yours hit it right on the head for me. I did not believe he was doing what he did deliberately. I refused to believe that for nearly 20 years. But he was.

He didn't misunderstand. He didn't not hear. He chose to do exactly what he did. He chose to disappoint, to hurt, to punish. It's a sad fact, but true.

And it is an important truth to accept, because once you do you know that all your efforts to exxplain and excuse are a waste of time. And you can focus instead on your own actions.

TruBluz

***In almost all cases, a P/A person finds a spouse who has characteristics that remind them of the person who controlled them in childhood. It may be just the tiniest kernel of similarity to the "bad parent", but it is enough to hang all his fears on.***

Gak! His mother was quite a piece of work - had seven kids, the first two out of wedlock with no father in sight. After she married a third man, WH was the oldest of that set of five. She never held a job and barely lifted a finger around the house, and all those kids grew up in squalor and neglect. (I saw the house years ago, when WH's youngest brothers still lived at home, so I know this is true.)

She was very strong-willed but also very, very P/A. She controlled her family by neglecting them, sitting on her butt, being chronically ill, being addicted to prescription meds and being a chain smoker even while on oxygen for emphysema.

The only thing I hope I have in common with her (again, gak!) was the strong-willed nature. WH's bimboes at work were all little airheads who just *happened* to be his subordinates and would never, ever expect to be his equal - much less HIS boss.

So:

I never wanted to "control" my husband. I did want to be a *partner* to my husband.

To me, those are completely DIFFERENT things.

To him, those are the SAME thing.

Got it.

Thanks so much. Please keep it coming. It's like I've been in a pitch-black room for fifteen years and somebody just turned on a light.
Mulan

Mulan,

Gak is right!!!

My FIL was an abusive horror (emotional and physical abuse to both H and his mother). FIL was also strong-willed, to the point of being dictatorial. And he was reactive.

I think the strong willed, and reactive pieces were the ones that clicked it all into gear in my situation. But FIL was such an awful man that I hate the thought of being anything like him.

Tru