No, I don't blame myself. Not now. I may have, back then, but only partly. First up, you've got to remember that this whole idea (and it's an absolutely SHOCKING idea - I know you know what that feels like) of him hurting me on purpose is completely new. Back then, not believing he would hurt me on purpose, and given that he ALWAYS tried to "make it better" with the constant apologies, with the being nice, with the promises to try harder, and the whole kit and caboodle, I could only look at myself and my reaction, and try to deal with that. So I tried to take the high road. With varying degrees of success, but I tried. Just giving me time to settle myself down instead of giving the immediate, harsh answer was valuable then. And I don't believe in making a person feel responsible for your feelings when they don't mean to hurt you. Of course, now that I see it was probably intentional all along, that changes everything! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Another invaluable post, thanks TruBluz.


Exactly the same here. He didn't feel safe, and he actually said to me, "All the times you said you were leaving, I actually believed them." Well... it didn't help him to know that I actually believed them too. They weren't threats to me, they were acts of sheer desperation, after trying and trying and TRYING and not having ANYTHING make a difference.

[/quote]
Which was a real shame, because one of my most deeply held values is loyalty. And yet I threatened to leave him when I didn't mean it. I used words to hurt, shock and manipulate. It's taken me a long time to begin to learn how to communicate openly and honestly. And to change the core beliefs that prompted me to do otherwise for so long.
Tru [/quote]

Oh, I hear ya. I'd like this opportunity but at this stage I very much doubt I'll get it. And I doubt I could ever get him to face the P/A issue. See, he sees himself as a "good guy", and the very idea that anyone would see him as someone who intentionally hurts his wife is just abhorrent to him. Much of the conflict since he's left has been from him reacting to the way people see him after he's been so cruel. Even though I have NEVER criticized him for the things he's done to me, and only just told the people closest to me the horrible things he's done, just because I MUST tell this stuff, it has been inexcusable to him. Being a good guy, and being seen as a good guy, is a key part of his self-concept, and being confronted with compelling evidence that he isn't has made for great internal conflict in him.

Oh, yes. This is EXACTLY my husband's reaction to POJA. Exactly.


And did you hear this directly from the wives, or did you only hear it from the husbands?


H*ll, no, it didn't. And did you ever ask them what they needed all that "freedom" for?


Dear gods, Tru, my head is about to explode right now.

My WH reacted EXACTLY like this. EXACTLY. He'd come to my events, but did NOT want me to go to his.

And for a long time I fell for it just like you did. "Oh, well, some people just have different needs and and don't want to be so intimate and don't want to be so close and just want their space, blah, blah blah."

AND THEN I FOUND OUT HE DOESN'T WANT ME AT HIS EVENTS BECAUSE HE USES THEM AS DATES WITH HIS FEMALE COWORKERS AND IT'S KINDA HARD TO DO THAT WHEN THE WIFE IS HANGING AROUND


Yep, mine says exactly the same thing. The translation is, "I have a chance to behave like a single guy when I am at work and I don't want you to interfere with that. But I am too P/A to admit it, so instead I will call you a Controlling B*tch so you'll back off in horror and prove you're not a Controlling B*tch. That way, I can have my fun and still come home to you and make you feel like sh*t for trying to be a Controlling B*tch. And I don't care one damn bit that you are lonely and left out while I make some other woman feel real, real good on her company-paid date with me, 'cos this is a great arrangement for ME ME ME."


Well, of course you did! Because he WAS trying to distance himself from you? What kind of wife would you be if that didn't hurt you???

Is he still pulling this on you???
Mulan

Again, I think we MUST be married to the same man. He gets very, very angry when the conflict between his noble, honorable image of himself runs smack into cold hard evidence that he has been a liar and a cheat. He has said this in so many words.

And I really do think he would, and WILL, nuke his own family rather than deal with that internal conflict.

Of course, he'll just end up like this again, because he is tremendously charming and fun when he wants to be and he's got money and position now, two things he had nothing of when we got married. And then he'll wonder how he could have ended up marrying TWO crazy women who are always trying to "control" him.
Mulan

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Sigh... this is so incredibly SAD.

So, does your H waffle back and forth between being the most kind and considerate man in the universe and being the biggest, nastiest jerk ever imaginable?

Is that a signature sign of P/A?

I was going to a counselor where I work (6 free sessions) and she said my H is probably a sociopath. Said he's most likely a serial cheater and will continue to do so.

Will say and do whatever is necessary to get what he wants.

My biggest question for you all and for myself is why on earth do we continue to stay in the R? What went wrong in our formative years to keep us there? And, what will be the final straw?

I really want out but get continually sucked back in. I really need to do a Plan B but I cannot bring myself to actually do it. I WANT to stay connected and, in the deepest recesses of my being, I think I really want to reconcile w/him.

I make myself very angry b/c I know he's still in contact w/OW (printed latest cell phone bill today) on a daily basis. He's still talking w/2ndEX also.

But, I guess in his defense I've told him that I want a D and have a draft settlement agreement from an attorney. But, on the other hand, he continues to tell me that he wants it to work and he'll do whatever is necessary to do that but I find out that he's in contact w/OW. So, what should that be telling me? I guess he's just saying what sounds good hoping I'll fall for it. I live about 30 minutes away so it's not so easy to ride by house and check up on him. Why on earth do I continue to waste such valuable time on this; time I will never recoop.

In my way of thinking, if I really wanted my M to work and one of the problems was contact with OM I would stop all contact. But, he doesn't know that I can access the phone bill so he thinks he's safe in lying to me about NC.

It should be telling you that you are just one member of his harem and he hopes you'll go on settling for that.

"He'll do whatever is necessary" to keep you dangling - not to work on the marriage.

If you start to get too far away, all he has to do is throw you a crumb and reel you back in.

He doesn't need to work on anything. Things are working just fine for HIM as they are.
Mulan

life2short,

It really sounds like your H has much more serious issues. I don't know about being a sociopath, that sounds kind of harsh....but if the shoe fits...

One charcteristic I read about PA's is that they are highly conflicted about emotional intimcacy. On the one had they crave it, probably more than the average person, but at the other extreme they are also just as afraid of it.

This is actually something I recognized pretty early about my WH and I spent years thinking somehow I could "teach" him how to have the closeness that I still believe that he so desperately desires. It was so frustrating that he could not see how he would seem to deliberatley sabatoge what he said he wanted the most. He would complain almost incessantly about the lack of intimacy in our marriage but was totally blind to how is actions and attiudes made any real intimacy impossible. Knowing what I do now, it makes perfect sense. It has also helped me tremendously in letting go...realizing that I can't help him. It also makes me sad for him because that is a terrible way to live...you are your own worst enemy.

It kind of reminds me of DS2 who was deathly afraid of the water, but would sit at the edge of the pool and cry because he wanted so badly to jump in and join all the rest of the kids. No matter how reassuring I tried to be, no matter how much I promised I would never let any harm come to him, he had to overcome that fear himself.

............

My STBXH CRAVES emotional intimacy. Totally. I have never noticed that he was afraid of it, but now that I am examining our M through the P/A microscope, I'm wondering if all the neglect I suffered, the lack of time spent with me, was fear.

As far as what keeps us in the relationship... well, my M is over. STBXH is he11-bent on this D and is going to get it, and I'm equally bent on having nothing to do with him until the Dodo is out of the picture and he is ready to behave like a normal decent human being again. So things aren't looking good! But should there be a miracle and he were to want to come back, and another miracle that makes my ambivalence and post-traumatic stress reactions to him vanish, I would like to exercise trust and faith enough to give him another chance because P/A behavior can be unlearnt.

However, I would never blame another person for deciding to call it a day. It is terribly soul-destroying! Every time I look at myself and see that *I am a better person because he's not in my life any more*, it is as if Arnold Shwartzenegger had given me a slap across the face. Make no mistake, my H as he was enriched my life, and I am so grateful to him, and for the love we shared, and the children we created, and I STILL think that the good in our M outweighed the bad, but his P/A, and my reactions to it, were this MASSIVE block to my personal progress. To say it is sobering is the understatement of the decade for me.

It's hard not to try to OWN their problems.

It's hard to back off and allow spouses to make destructive decisions just as it is to do that w/our children.

I'm not making the decision to D as much as it is my WH doing things that is making the decision for me.

Yet, it's hard to take that final step. I truly DO believe that my life will be so much better in the long run.

His actions destroyed my faith and trust in him. He has continued to lie about many things and has continued contact. His actions and his words don't match. He should be doing everything within his power to show me that he is interested in making the M work.

But, I bet you my next paycheck that when I confront him w/the telephone bill (I plan to this weekend) his response will be that I told him I wanted a D so he felt there was no hope so talking to them wasn't a problem. In other words, I don't want him so why can't he talk to whomever he wants?

Also, there will be "legitimate" (in his opinion) reasons for talking to them (OW, 2nd EXW and sex woman).

I guess God has to drop a bomb on my head for me to wake up and move forward.

L2S,

"So, does your H waffle back and forth between being the most kind and considerate man in the universe and being the biggest, nastiest jerk ever imaginable?"

Our perspective indicates stuff about us, not them...going to absolutes, the extremes, in our thinking has a payoff in us...you have been back and forth on your marriage since you came here...would you try looking for the middle perception and working towards it?

No bash...your statement resonated with me...extremes are signals of our inner child...not our more adult thinking (hence, waffling back and forth within ourselves, too)...

Your WH is not the most considerate man in the universe...you don't know every man in the universe. Allow for your beliefs to be valid as they are...he is considerate enough for you--you view him, at times, tenderly...find out what gives you that perception...same for the flip sides...

The more you know you, the better you see others...the less extreme means less waffling...humans are. You are. You're human.

There is a human being under the P/A behaviors...I believe that is why God teaches us to love his creations, not their actions...and tells us not to judge, lest we judge the self not the behavior.

Can you see where not accepting the mean and biting behavior is warranted? Needed? Healthy? Separating what we do from what we are is tricky...do it wisely and with moderation.

Beware anyone diagnosing someone who isn't there, L2S...wonder what this counselor would say about you when your WH described your behaviors through his filter...

When you really want to stop the out/in, out/sucked back in cycle, you will. Know this. You are whole, complete and marvelously made...equal and capable to everyone else on the planet. God didn't make no junk. Your choices remain, and they are your power, and being able to only control yourself is your healhty limit.

LA

Great analogy with your DS and the water, PB...

Thank you!

LA

Life,

"My biggest question for you all and for myself is why on earth do we continue to stay in the R? What went wrong in our formative years to keep us there? And, what will be the final straw?"

Good question. Most of us are probably codependant or enablers or both.

I personally am both.

I had an alcoholic father. As a child you have unconditional love for your parents. So when Dad was drunk and angry bad things happened. He sobered up appologized and that was what I learned and that created a codependant enabler because I dind't know any better.

So now I have started studying these things about myself. What I have found is my codependency within my M led to almost unconditional love for my FWW. There was almost nothing that my FWW could do that I wouldn't just get over with an apology. No matter what it was there almost no "NORMAL" consequences. Or as LA put it no progressive enfocement of my boundries.

When she had the A that was the end of my near unconditional love for her. That was one condition that had consequences. However based on my past codependent/enabler actions she expected me to deal with it the same way.

Looking back on it we almost never fought unless I hurt her feelings or did something wrong. Then it wasn't really a fight it was me accpeting my consequences for my actions.

Fast forward to now. I am codependent no more. I don't need or want this R. When I say this R I am not talking about my M I am talking about the codependent/enabler PA R.

She still wants that R though.

I won't go back to that R so she needs to decide if she wants to abandon that one and start a new better one or fight for the one that is broken.

So far my FWW is fighting to keep the old broken dynamic.

Loving Anyway,
Thanks, I needed to hear everything you said. You are right.

I have been back and forth. The reaons are that I miss the person I thought he was and I am afraid of growing old alone. I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life so I'm willing to settle in order to avoid that.

I often remind myself of the fact that I have been praying for God's will in this situation but, God loves my H just as much as he does me.

I allowed a very destructive pattern to be set up in my M very early on. My H learned that he could treat me in any manner he chose and I would accept it. I lied to him about my past as a teenager and did everything in my power to let him have his way as a way to make up for that. What happened was the total destruction of my marriage.

Yes, you are right about the counselor. She took my side only and diagnosed him. Don't know if she was right or not. He HAS done some quite nasty things over the years. I believe in my heart that he will cheat again on whomever he ends up with next unless he allows God to work in his life.

A big part of me is incredibly sad b/c the last 9 years of my life were spent trying to hold onto something that was dying.

Today I got finally copy of divorce papers. H has copy. It is over. We go next week to sign. I can't believe that it is really over. I am so incredibly sad right now. I know that he will go back to OW and 2nd EXW and find new ones and it just really hurts.

I have no doubt H has done nasty things over the years...just believe you can't diagnose the person not there...period. We all have our filters, our perspectives...and I know you have felt great pain. I do.

I meant that more as a telling thing about the counselor, not you. Heck, when I talked about my DH years ago, others thought he was a sociopath, too. LOL.

We all have behaviors...as you said, our selves, created by God, are all equal and beloved by him. I think part of your waffling is just what you said, the one you knew, the alien now...the H you fell in love with, the man who tormented you; and if you separate the sins from the sinner, you can judge his actions, not his self.

Nor can anyone, you. Remember that, L2S...What you believe is yours...doesn't have to be proven...you won't be wrong for divorcing...

You will remain whole, complete and marvelously made...love yourself the way you loved H, 'k? Love yourself and don't settle for halfway...spend your energy holding you, a gorgeous creation of God, and be intimate, honest and choose to love...

Take your focus off of WH now...because you are betraying yourself anew putting him before you...and inbetween you and God.

You can't end up alone. You cannot. You weren't when you were born and you won't be when you die. You are not alone.

LA

Great post, RT...so much here, isn't there? Humans are amazingly complex...

What do you guys think of resentment being a big factor in P/A behaviors?

I'm thinking when I fear...I tend to DJ...then resent...then act out...? Just thinking outloud.

And what if being a victim represents being blameless...from feeling so blamed in childhood...coupled with the belief that what we feel for, we do not attack?

Kicking stuff around.

Thinking of you, Mulan...for tomorrow...my gut thought that would be the day...and I read DH your post on the other thread where you took the phone off the hook because you couldn't stand to hear it NOT ring...

And I said...

"See? She's a WRITER."

(((())))

LA

I agree. The counselor and all of you have my version only. I've done my share of things to screw up the M as well.

Just really having a hard time. Never wanted to be at this spot. Never really thought I would but .... surprise.

I know that I have to go through the stages of grieving. Right now I'm in denial.

I personally like denial...and acceptance...I don't like the inbetween stages too much.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We are all human, L2S...all with the same limits and the same power...we have no control over others, but we have influence.

One of the best things I did differently was to choose who I listened to...stopped listening to the negative voices in my head, and stayed open to those on MB...

You already do that, don't you?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God is guiding you, with you...where you are right now is where you are. You are learning so much, I just know it. And you're helping others through sharing.

Could that be the two biggest parts of life?

LA

Mulan,

Have you ever read anything by Patricia Evans? I ask because some of the things you have said on this and the other PA thread reflect almost exactly word for word what she describes in her books on controlling people and verbal abuse. She describes controllers as living in a different reality...where relationships are synonymous with power struggle and there is always a "top dog" and an "underdog". FOr controllers, the only way they know how to "do relationships" is by exerting control over another person.

"Why Does He Do That"? by Lundy Bancroft is also a very good book. Most of the author's experience is with hard core abusers, so he takes a little more extreme view point. At one place, he says that controllers core problem is they have a perverted sense of right and wrong. I think that may be a bit extreme for the run of the mill PA. I think it is more they have a perverted sense of what is normal and what is not. Control was the defining dynamic of their early relationships, it is all they know so it seems normal to them. That is why they can't understand why their behavior ultimately drives people away. They think everyone operates that way and it seems to work for them.

As a practical matter, though it probably doesn't matter.