OK I have another question about the P/A getting plain old aggressive during the A. TruBluz, you said:


Which makes sense to me.

However, I've been thinking tonight, and something occurred to me...

Since STBXH left, I've effectively become a different person. While acting under the directives of my Plan A and taking the high road, I effectively removed my grist from his P/A mill and stopped enabling him this way. Is it possible that his aggressiveness (apart from guilt, natch) is him kicking out against this in extreme frustration? Is it possible that this is the mother of all hissy fits because he has no idea what to do and how to act towards me now that the old P/A mechanism doesn't work?

What do you all think?

I think you're right. What used to work doesn't anymore and he's baffled. You aren't feeding into the P/A behavior.

Also, I think the P/A behavior does escalate during an A. When my WH's A started to crumble (for whatever reason) he started becoming nicer. Now, in my sitch, I think he was thinking about the financial backing and business support he would lose D'ing me but, still, he started to change.

Did you all find that your spouse had problems with all R or just w/yours?

Hi Peach,
No, I have not read anything by Evans, but I guess some concepts are pretty much universal.


I did read the excerpts from this on Amazon. I wonder if most all abusers are P/A and the physical abusers are the ones who simply kept ramping it up. I don't know.


I would certainly agree with that. When I talk about having what I call a normal, healthy relationship, where we take care of each other and use POJA, he just looks at me blankly and says that sounds great but it's just a fantasy. Whenever I talk about things like that, he repeatedly accuses me of "not living in the real world."


Yes. I don't think it's ever dawned on him that it is possible to be an equal with someone and have that be a positive thing.

In his chaotic FOO, being an "equal" meant you'd get neglected to death and pushed out, the way hyenas shove aside a weak sister at a kill.

And in the corporate workplace, being a passive/aggressive boss who lavishly rewards females who fawn on him and coldly ignores anyone who doesn't follow his orders has paid off big time for him.

So why would he believe me, or MB, when I say this method of managing his marriage doesn't work for anyone? He is convinced that *I* am the one with the problem, and he has diagnosed my problem as "not living in the real world."


Oh, it matters a great deal. I think you have made some very good points here. Thanks for posting.
Mulan

Thanks so much, LA - but I have to admit, I got that idea from the title of a country/western song called something like, "If The Phone Doesn't Ring - It's Me."

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Mulan

Oh, sure. Now, actually, my WH is very happy and nice to me when he's getting his way and feels free to go out with the girls at work and enjoy lots of company-paid good times with them.

But he gets very, very angry and nasty if I try to interfere with this in any way, or ESPECIALLY if he is caught in a lie and/or confronted with the cold truth about what he was really doing.

And yes, it's because the only way they know how to solve a problem or conflict is with P/A tactics and if those don't work they have NO IDEA what to do.

On many occasions, I have talked to WH about MB guidelines, using POJA, etc. It would seem to be going well. I would think he was accepting these things. And then he would just look at me and keep saying, "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do."

And I have heard him shout "I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!! in rage when caught in a lie.

Gee, ya think maybe you're right, RT?
Mulan

When it comes to big decisions - major purchases, job changes, starting new company - do you discuss those things and come to a decision or is he like a bull in a china shop?

He wants it, asks for your opinion, but then does what he wants to do anyway?

The most he will do is inform me of what he has already decided to do. I am expected to agree. He might very generously offer to make some small accomodation, like "I'll call you when I get to Vegas, okay?" and wants me to acknowledge how nice he is to call when he gets there. But whether he goes there or not is NOT up for discussion, and neither is whether I go along or not. If I need to be there, he will inform me of that, and expect me to gratefully drop everything and hurry after him since The Boss has decided that I am allowed to be present at this event.

He thinks he is being very very generous when he actually bothers to inform me of what he's doing, since so much of the time he just keeps it a secret or flat-out lies about it. Hey, The Boss doesn't have any obligation to tell the employees about his personal plans, so he wants much gratitude for his great generosity of informing me of the plans that he's already made.

And just so I don't sound like a total idiot and doormat, no, he was not like this for the first ten years of our marriage. This started when his position of The Boss went to his head and the girls and the perks became like a drug to him. I wanted this destructive behaviour to stop, but that felt like "control" to him, so he has had both barrels of full-on P/A tactics pointed squarely at my head ever since.

But to answer your question, no, he angrily refuses to POJA anything. "That feels like control!" he snarls, and yes, he uses those exact words.
Mulan

So how do you make it stop? Or better yet, how do you hold on to your sanity? How do you stop feeling sad and getting your feelings hurt EVERY time he does something to hurt you? How do you let go of that ugly man your WH has become?

How do you know when the man that he used to be is gone forever? And that man who only cares about himself is here to stay? Is there hope for these kinds of WH? I mean, they were nice once, can they be again? Do you think your WH will ever realize what he is doing to his wife and family? Do you ever expect to see the old H again? And if not then what?

How long will you hold on for your sons sake? How do you live like that for so long?

My older son graduates in 2 years. Can I take this abuse that long? My youngest is only 9 so I know I would lose my sanity if I held out that long. I want to know how to preserve the love. I want to know if I should just give up now. My WH thinks only of himself. If he wants to stay out til 3 AM, he will and think nothing of it. If he wants to NOT invite me to something he just doesn't. Not explanation or care about my feelings.

My H really was a great man. He was so loving to me and our kids. He is a stranger now. I am sad about it. I can't seem to detach my feelings so every time I end up with my feelings hurt and mad and sad. What a crummy life!

LITC - after reading this thread, and especially the similar one over on the In Recovery board, do you think your husband is P/A?
Mulan

Mulan - I just don't see my WH as being Passive/Aggressive, but maybe I am just not understanding it. I have not read through all the threads. Some of the things seem to apply and others don't.

I just relate to just about everything you say.

How do you do it? How can you not be sad or get your feelings hurt all the time? How do you act toward your WH when he does something mean, like not inviting you somewhere? I find it hard to be nice to my WH, but then I HATE the feeling of being mean and sad.

LITC - since you are relating to what I'm posting, why don't you read the threads in my sig lines and tell me what you think. As soon as I can, we can talk further, and others like LovingAnyway, TruBluz and Silverpool can address this too.

See ya after the reading -
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

Just checking in, you had said your H and DS18 were returning this weekend. I hope you are doing well - Dru

I've been thinking (and I've done nothing BUT thinking since I've woken up to the P/A reality of our M), and you know what I think I find the hardest thing to come to terms with? It's this:

I believe that we choose our actions. I chose how to react to my H's P/A for 21 years. I was constantly trying to improve myself, thinking that I had to master my "temper". Sure he'd do things that hurt and (let's face it) drove me insane with exasperation, but I thought that how I reacted to this was MY responsibility. And yet, if we were locked into this P/A pattern, does this mean that I was kinda beaten before I COULD effect any changes in me and how I reacted? Or COULD I have just sucked his behavior up indefinitely? And even if he is equally responsible for the cycle, how can I hold him at all responsible when I believe that how a person feels and reacts to others' behavior is, at the end of the day, their choice?

I don't know how these two facts (freedom of choice, and the P/A cycle) can coexist. I don't know how to reconcile one with the other.

Can someone explain this to me, please?

I'd like to second the recommendation of Patricia Evans' books; I've just read 'Controlling People' and 'Verbal Abuse' and what she's describing is pretty much exactly what is being discussed on this thread.

In 'Verbal Abuse', she says that abuser and abused live in different 'realities' - the abuser lives in RealityI where there is a need to have 'Power Over' another, and the abused lives in RealityII where it's assumed both want mutuality and co-operation. The RealityII person keeps plugging away to achieve the mutuality that (s)he assumes the partner wants also, not realising that the partner has a completely different view of the world.

In 'Controlling People', she describes how people 'make themselves up backwards', and then force their partner to conform to the image they need them to fit in order to feel like themselves.

I explain this very badly. She is very articulate...and the books are much deeper than the covers and titles suggest.

I don't think you did that badly, TA...but then, I'm biased.

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LA

RT,

Just a thought...all those you of improving yourself, trying to change enough to stop the dance...

"but I thought that how I reacted to this was MY responsibility."

Still goes back to your choice...to change for HIM, not you. And this isn't me saying you did it all wrong...just so you know that learning about PA behavior, a light goes on...still the dance, only, no longer in the dark. Review what changes you wanted to change in yourself, for you, without trying to change the dance at all...find those, know those for your own...and dig out some more.

Vacuuming up another person's behavior...why? What we were taught, in part, and more payoff than that...find that payoff...it's important.

I don't know what behaviors or how extreme they are in your H...I do know that getting my premise set in life changed me for real...about me, for me...and it's helped a lot with my marriage...though I may be dealing with mild behaviors...in myself and my H. I don't know.

LA