Mr.Wondering and Bigkahuna,

I don't believe that he is currently in an A. I have access to one of his cel phone bills and I have looked up the #'s I did not recognize. All the #'s belonged to co-workers or friends of ours. Plus several of his friends have talked to me and mentioned that they have seen him out alone.

I do understand that it is possible and so I am keeping my eyes/ears open to see if I can find anything but for now I can't say either way.

He has asked for SF, which I don't understand. He has mentioned that it would be with no commitment. As if I was just the lover. I won't put myself in that situation. I know my feelings would get the better of me and I would do myself more harm.

Well I finally was able to look up his cel phone record and guess what.... he has not only been talking to/seeing one girl but 3. The phone #'s seem close so I think it may be just one but he talks to her friends too. So this explains most of his actions, reactions. We have had sooo meny long talks on the phone that just keep us in circles. I would like them to be more productive but we are each trying so hard to make the other understand our points of view. We only end up in an argument.

I feel so lonly, like my chest is empty without any feelings of hope or happiness. I have asked H to go out with me on a date, with or without kids to give us a chance to try and get along with no commitments. Just a nice dinner and small talk. He has accepted then he calls me back a few hrs later to say he can't that it is hopeless and there is no way that will ever change his mind about me. This state of mind he is in now makes me desperate to try and cling and beg, I have lost my self respect. I don't want to, or mean to come accross as needy but I do. I get upset and that is the only thing that I feel/know how to do to get a reaction from him. He said that he cares and worries about me being ok with us not beeing together. He came over a few nights ago and was calm he huged me and wipped the tears off my face and he kept saying are you going to be ok? This gives me hope that some how he does want to give it a try but then he pushes the subject of D.
How do I need to hadle this situation? Please give me advise/plan to stay with this or to move on....

Do some research on these OW if you can. A simple call to each of them informing them that WH is married may do the trick. If not, getting their names and exposing them to their families will help as well NO MATTER HOW MUCH WH THREATENS YOU OR GET UPSET. Further, expose to your families the full extent of the situation again.

Without busting up ALL his entanglements/affairs with these OW there is simply no hope of reconciliation. Once he is single and alone he may come back home to give you two a proper chance. If you can't stop the affairs within a set period of time (maybe 1 or 2 months now considering you've been separated already for some time) and your love bank is nearly depleted you must go to Plan B.

Do not discuss divorce with him. He will use the threat to manipulate you so he can maintain the status quo. If he files you go for everything you can...full custody, supervised visitation, money, etc.. Until then Plan B until he comes home and stops behaving like an idiot.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

I guess that I am scared of calling them up. He has told me that they know he is married and waiting for D. All I have are the #'s so I did have a friend of mine try to locate some information that would be usefull for me. I hope that it turns up good. Then I will consider exposing much seriously. Or what other tactics are good for them to agree to stop comunicating with him?

Do you think that I should try to ask him to stop contact? I won't even ask about restarting our R cause he will and has been denying me any kind of an opportunity to give it all a decent try. He is very stuborn in that way that he will say no way and it is no way.

As far as a plan B that is no contact?, right? So that means that I should refuse to see and speak with him. But that is exactly what he wants to happen at this point

At some point you have to look at this as what's best for you. Limbo land or a plan.

First off, you can't trust what WH is telling you about what he says to these other women. It is much easier for him to get involved and attract other women indicating he is single rather than "waiting for a D". A quick call to them will either put them in the "know" or reveal that he has been slighly dishonest to them and either way also create some contflict with these relationships (and definitely yours...conflict is GOOD as long as you don't Love Bust). Even if they know he's getting divorced he's likely lied to them about the circumstances surrounding such divorce. I'm betting he's just indicated he is divorced/or maybe divorcing cause his wife cheated on him and threw him out in favor of OM (great little sympathy ploy with just enough truth behind it to give him wiggle room).

Second, going dark (Plan B - which requires TOTAL DARKNESS, you can't do a little or partial Plan B) may seem to be exactly what he wants, however, "control" is more likely what he wants and you won't know til you try. For now he's loving the single life AND his home and family. Status quo is the goal until he decides what to do (which he'll never do when he's got the best of both worlds). Plan B is your plan for YOU. You remove yourself from the situation and hope it may have some effect on him and bring him home. However, while you are dark you get to restore yourself. You get to move forward as if you will likely get divorced. If that's gonna happen anyway then there is no sense playing HIS game until the bitter end. His game will destroy you. Plan B is an opportunity for you to have peace in your life (and your kids lives) and wait for WH to come to his senses or file for divorce (and even then you stay dark...it ain't over often the filing is another attempt to control...you stay dark).

I'm not saying Plan B NOW. But Plan A is easier and more effective when you set up a finish line in advance. You have the relief of knowing the crap won't go on indefinitely. You do your exposures (which WH will be angry about, act like that's the last straw, whatever...just ignore it and continue). You focus on yourself in Plan A too. Becoming a better, more dynamic, individual, parent, spouse, etc. NO LOVEBUSTERS. Clean yourself up physically. Eat well, sleep, excercise. The better the Plan A the more effective Plan B can be.

Little things in Plan A are important:

1. When he comes over the house is in perfect shape, you are dressed and showered with makeup on.

2. If and when he comes to take the kids, you appear primped and ready to leave on some important mission that he doesn't need to know about (even if you are just going shopping or for a drive or the movies alone)

3. The house and you smell familiar (pull out the old perfume he loved when you first met...and the house smells like his favorite dish he just missed...but you'd be glad to warm him up a plate if he has the time.

4. Be creative and happy (as tough as that is...fake it until you make it...his choices are NOT about you...be strong...you will make it)

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

I would call these women and expose to them - tell them that your H admitted to being invoved with them, that you have children and that you are trying to reconcile the relationship and ask them to back away. Be prepared for them to try to tell you how innocent they are or how bad your H has it - do not listen to them, be brief and get your message accross right away and get off the phone as soon as you've gotten your message accross. (You might want to practice what you will say several times beforehand so that you speak with confidence). Also, think long about being the first to file for temporary orders - lots of times this will knock some sense into them. Make it known that you are not filing for divorce but protecting your children and your assets until his priorities are straigtened out. Quit talking about your relationship with him and who is to balme - tell him that when he is ready to build a new marriage with you, that you will welcome him and will go to counseling with him (because you love him and value him and want to work things out) but that for your own welfare and the welfare of the kids, you will not keep digging the hole deeper, especially while he is involved in an A. Then stick to your guns. Be good to yourself and your kids. Let his manipulation roll off of you like water. Make him abide by the temporary orders and refuse to further it with a D - if he wants a D, make him to all of the work to get it.

Ok, I feel a bit more relaxed and I prayed last night. I have been praying and reading the bible almost every night. This seems to relax me.

I am starting to look at myself as a "freeloader". Not commiting to the M/R. I am taking on a new me. I got up this morning and dressed up put my makeup on and even put some perfume on.LOL. No tears thoughts yes but no tears.

As Mr. Wondering has mentioned, Plan A. I am going to be the best mom and wife I can be. Keeping up myself and my home to be better than what I was befor.

H just called now to see if I would be able to get the kids some sweaters (they are at his house till thurs.) Then I let him know that I was planing on going out of town this weekend with my kids.I did not let him know where or anything just that I was going out. I offered for him to take the kids again next week during the week so make up for it. And then I mentioned to him that someone offered to buy some of the extra furniture. I talked to him in a very upbeat tone of voice and made it all sound so positive. His reaction to me going out of town was if i was so straped financially why was I going out all the time and not being at home. Then he clarified that he said this more because of my complaints about money vs. him caring where I was and what I did. Then he went into "i don't get you, you beg and plead for me to come home and then you show that you are happy on your own doing whatever you want." I just said that it was time for me to think about me. I do want him to come back and give his family a fair chance of survival and that I just can't sit and wait for him to make that decision to work on our M or not to and be miserable. He is angry, and I sense that he is still not sure that he is ready to let me go, he needs to repeat it several times to convince himself that I mean very little in his life. Then I thought that he had a change of heart and asked me if I was willing to take him back. I answered yes. Then the two conditions came out. First that my parents give me my inheritance now. And Second that I live with him by his rules. At that point he said that it would be a marraige of convinience. One where he had to benefit monetarily for it to be worth it. He asked if I was willing to sacrifice my life for that. I answered him " I would only be willing to do it for you. If it means that you would give me a chance and then I would be able to show you I love you and win your heart back. If you loved me befor then you can love me again." He then got sarcastic and nasty which I took every word with a grain of salt. In other words I let it slide off my back and kept my cool. We ended the call with this thought.

I am considering exposure. I think I have a name to go with the phone numbers.

What??? You would really be willing to settle for a marriage of convenience that he's only in for the financial benefit???

Wow. That's so, so sad! You are worth better than that. There is no reason for anyone to ever settle for treatment like that.

It may "sound" outrageous but WS's always do. The "fog" remember. She did right to let that statement slide off her back. It's clearly fog babble and though his "conditions" are stupid, you can't argue logic with a WS. So don't bother. Just nod your head and move on.

Sometimes negotiating a "chance" is necessary just to get the separated spouse back home where real marital work can be untertaken and the expectation of no contact can be monitored. Recovery rarely starts out with the WS just loving the BS...it takes time. Love is not a pre-condition of recovery. But it is definitely important for the BS to have the boundary pre-established that EVENTUALLY a marriage of convenience is simply unacceptable. Don't hammer the point, just state it occasionally. I've stated many times on MB...my only boundary was "I refuse to be in a loveless marriage". IMO, that boundary encompasses a lot (I not going to be satisfied just staying married, the old marriage is dead, I won't share you with OM or any other OM, we must achieve MORE).

Regarding the "inheritance". I am an estate plan attorney. Getting your "inheritance" now sounds pretty ridiculous. Are your parents offering you some money??? If so, there are ways to take it and protect yourself from a potentially divorcing spouse. You could meet the condition...technically, while giving WH absolutely no control or access to it even if you divorce. You should discuss this with an attorney...the first rule of thumb is don't commingle the money with your spouse. Keep it separate. However, in most cases...this is a bad idea. An indication that your parents are going to help you two out financially upon a real recovery of a loving marriage may be possible but otherwise the risk of divorce generally and without much planning (with an estate plan attorney costing more $$$$) is, IMO,foolhardy.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - SusieQ IS worth more than that...but it's only important for HER to know and realize that right now.

Mr. Wondering that was exactly my thought. If I am able to negotiate for him to consider trying to work on the marriage then I would be able to prove to him that it is not to late for us to work things out and I am a very willing spouse. I did mention that he was to respect me in every way.

I agree with the statement of the boundries and that I will not endure a marraige with out love. So I think that he again is just testing me and did not really mean to consider it.

As far as the "inheritance" well I again agree that it is not something that is an option. All I can do is keep trying to negotiate something anything to get him to come out of the fog.

I have realized that I am important and valuable individual and that is why I do have my boundries and I will not accept for him degrade me in anyway. I deserve to be loved, taken care of and much much more.

Time to allow him to see what a wonderfull family and wife he is leaving behind is all I need, well that and time to take care of me and my kids. =)

Well now I am really starting to get worried. After our talk yesterday afternoon H called me several times in the evening. I did not answer as I was talking with a friend. He has our kids for a few days. Then H called again at about 8:30pm, I was at home with one of our mutual friends(female) and he heard her kids and started to question who I was with. I refused to give him any details other than I had company. He would not let up and I felt that if he has made a choice to not want to be married to me then I have no need to provide him with information as to what I do in my free time. H hung up on me.

An hour later he calls again and goes into a speach of How dare I disrespect HIS home, HIS person by having 'visitors' at Our home. I made it very clear to him that I did nothing wrong nothing to be ashamed of. I am not the one engaging in romantic relationships, going out to meet OP, and treating the spouse as trash. My acctions scream that I have respected my M, H, kids, home and my values. I have been taking care of our kids, making sure they have the love and emotional support they need at this time. And I have not gone out to start looking for an A.

He then goes back in the conversation about how I need to get my Inheritace for him to come back. But he has started to put more conditions of the reconciliation. He wants me to cut my cel,(which I just got 1mth ago) not speak to my family unless he has oked the call/visit, he is to have full control of any decisions that need to made(everything), We will sell our home and he will tell me where we are to live, I will not be going on any vacations with him, and I am to maintain our home spotless, all meals are to be cooked, I am to be the perfect wife at home, With no control over my life.

I don't know if he is playing somekind of a game with me or if this still punishment or is he trying to make me stop loving him/wanting him back or is this a test?

Any thoughts welcome.....

just a bumb to get feedback......

I'm guessing he wants to make any potential divorce YOUR FAULT. His demands are getting even more ridiculous and you keep listening and not reacting. Very good so far cause YOU can't convince him of anything...logic is lost on the WS anyway so don't bother. Just listen, maybe repeat back to him his stupid plan without sarcasm for clarity and so just maybe he can hear just how ridiculous it is. Follow up with "hmmmm, that's interesting, let me think about that". Maybe ask him exactly how such marriage is supposed to work...just keep asking questions and keep him talking to you. Communication, no matter how wierd and ridiculous is good Plan A stuff. If and when you do go dark he'll miss having you available to talk to.

If you do fight him on this ridiculous plan you'll end up love busting him for sure...just like he wants you too. Then he can say something like:

"My exwife controlled everything, I wanted to reconcile but only if she'd agree to giving and respecting my proper male/husband authority and make me the leader of my family as I properly should have been all along...she found that unacceptible so we divorced. She was/is a controlling B1TCH. I certainly tried EVERYTHING I could to get her to be reasonable"

Your goal...make it impossible for him to put this on you. Don't love bust. Listen, ask questions, probe him for intimacy (like "what do you want out of life", "why do you feel the need to control everything"). Play the game and make HIM do all the heavy lifting for excuses to not try to work on the marriage.

Good Luck
Mr. Wondering

Who's the WS?

L.

Orchid- I am the FWW, H had attempted an EA and then couldn't go thru with it he ended the EA and came back home. (this is after my EA) and was home for several months befor he decided he couldn't handle the arguing and moved out 7/1, and shortly after that he started talking to several women. Which as of this week he claims to have NC with any of them due to our situation.

k this is an update of what has happened this last week.

On Thurs. H came by my office to talk. We had a very good conversation about what and where we each went wrong in the M. He brought up some very good points of things that I had failed to do for his EN. Which then started turning into the cycle. He did things to me, I did them back to him and so on. He had held me, wiped the tears from my face and even kissed me with tenderness/love. Yet he will not say that he is in love with me. He will state that he cares about me and that we just have too meny issues to get past. When he left my office I felt that it was a big step in the right direction. Then Friday I took the time off to go visit fam. in So. CA. he called several times he knew I was going with the kids. When I answered his call late afternoon he gave me the "ohhh you left. i see" and I just stated to him that I had every right to do it cause he has repeatedly mentioned to me to move on with my life, as he had started to do. We hung up on a bad note.

Later that evening my sis. wanted me to go out with some cousins to a club. I really didn't want to as I was feeling so down. Well I had 4 or 5 drinks and thought to myself just have fun, nothing crazy just dance have a good time. At one point a guy started to dance next to me and he just asked what was my name and then he told me his. Which was the same as H!!! My feelings went into a spin. I started to cry and had to be taken outside for air. Poor guy he had no clue what had happened. Well then I called my H and started to inform him of all that I knew about his "friends" I stupidly gave him names numbers and so on. I asked him what kind of a game was he playing? that I was not stupid. and that it was not good for the kids to later find out about his actions. If he thought that it would be alright if I did the same thing he was doing, going out to party and hooking up with who ever came by. He kept saying that as long as the kids where safe he could care less about what I did.

Sat. we did not talk at all then he called me on Sun. which he just wanted to see where we stood and what was the outcome of all of this. Talking and that we need to be friends regardless of the D or no D. That we have 3 kids to take care of and that no matter what happens between us that we each needed to be as civil and considerate of eachother as poss. But he was very insistant that I tell him how I got the information about his calls. I will not tell him how I got it.

Tues. H called and asked to meet with me. We went to a park and sat and talked again it was good cause we talked about our issues with eachouther the mistakes that we made in the M and so on. Same as Thurs. he held me and said that no matter how hard he tries he still has strong feelings for me and that he cared very much about my well being. But that he was not sure that us staying together was a good idea that we have caused so much hurt and pain to eachother that he thought it was pointless to give it a try. We should just try to be friends.

Wed. we talked on the phone and he confessed that he had called the OW and asked for NC and that it was not right of him to be leading them on when he had no clue as to what his future was. He said he felt bad cause he caused pain and hurt to the OW. I made a bad call on asking if it was more important to him that he hurt her than the hurt his family(kids and me) are going thru. but then he said that he didn't want me to get my hopes up that this ment we where working on the M that it was just a something he had to do to make things right for himself.

It seems that he does want to stay married and that there is a small slim chance we can get past this but it is a very long road that is not going to leave room for any mistakes. I have told him that he is important part of my life, that I admire, love and support him. That I do want to be his friend and to look to me for trust and support in whatever he needs. I don't see him being 100% OH but we have had talks that have resulted in some good.

I have started to think of puting together a plan/timeline on how we each can work on our issues and be good to eachother without getting hopes up that things are working out. I do need help with that. I am not very good at puting together any kind of a plan.

If WH jsut ended it with the OW (and he indicated she was hurt which means it was likely MORE than just a EA considering he had moved out of the marital home) then the plan I suggest IS:

1. Give him about a month to go through withdrawal...talk some but really listen, listen & listen. Try to ask questions as everyone's favorite subject is themselves. Don't LB at all and never let his fogged out statements affect you. Roll with them. Perhaps bring up that a recovery plan needs to be discussed but don't suggest any details for now...leave the question on the table. If he offers suggestions or alternatives THEN discuss them but hesitate trying to TEACH him anything. The only FIRM plan should be "let's spend 20 hours a week together and try to have as much fun as possible...then in a month we can asses our situation and develope a recovery plan TOGETHER. Until then we just need to be together, get comfortable with each other again, restore a basic level of trust and safety." Really it's just dating for now...and it would be nice if you got him to move home.

2. During this time you are NOT to trust everything he tells you. He is still a WH and just cause he SAID he ended it with OW you must inspect what you expect. If the affair has not actually ended...you are to go back to affair busting mode. Until NC and one month at least of withdrawal NO REAL RECOVERY CAN PROGRESS. Do not give up your sources...let him think you have sources everywhere.

2. You are still in Plan A mode...meeting as much of his emotional needs as you can. You must not fight or LB him at all. If you go out...commit to having fun. If you have a few drinks DON'T discuss the relationship as it's to risky that a fight will ensue. As the WH he should appreciate the comment "No relationship talk tonight, let's have fun". After one month, it may be OK to talk but based upon your phone call from SoCAl after a few drinks I don't think you should trust yourself Plan A'ing after drinking.

3. Keep working on yourself. Plan A style. Try to balance becoming a better individual, parent and spouse. Make your own WRITTEN plan for your individual growth in all 3 separate areas. After a couple weeks of implementing them and withdrawal then maybe introduce to WH what YOU are doing for YOU (without implying directly that he do the same...he must choose that for himself). But he may be coming around to internalizing your strength and be impressed with your plan for YOU. That's attracting him back.

5. Keep posting on MB for advice.

I am hopeful that you are getting a chance. Good luck. My wife and I wish you and your family all the best.

Mr. Wondering

H had mentioned that he was hurt to do NC with OW. It was short lived A but he feels bad hurting her and himself as he started to have feelings for her. I did not ask him to do this. I even told him to continue to see her if that was what he needed. He told me that he broke it off cause he "thought that I was really trying to make our R work" but because of some actions I have done they show him that I am not really wanting our R/M.

I sold some of the furniture in our home, our bedroom set and an extra sofas. I sold them to a mutual friend and gave them the keys to our home and they came by to pick up the items while I was in So.CAL. He sees this as me trying to hurt him and show him that he doesn't count in our R. But I did ask him about the items he did not want them. Then he goes on to say that I have not taken care of our home and kids. I get off of work between 5:15 and 5:30 then I go to the sitters to pick up kids and stay for a while. then we all go home at about 7 or so. He sees this as me avoiding the responsabilty of keeping house and cooking for the kids. It is definately not that. I don't want to be alone to linger and think of what he is doing looking at my home and miss him. I don't want to sink into a depressed state of mind. I know I have issues but I am asking for his help in getting them into light so that I may fix them. How do I stop our conversations from focusing soley on our R? That is the only thing he ever wants to dwell on. He seems to think that because I am not crying, and very emotional that I am going back to who I was and working on the M, I have told him that I am working on me to not be like that and he said that I am blackmailing him into the R/M. That is not true, can I change his mind about his thoughts? I have sooo meny questions.

"I'm not blackmailing you. I can not control your choices. I want to work on the relationship/marriage. If you do to that's great. For us to do that all I am proposing is that for a month or six weeks we both commit to spending 20 hours a week together doing whatever. We try to spend as much of that time alone, without the kids as we can. Of course, for any progress to be made we both must commit to not involving ANY other person in our lives. ONLY after a month/6 weeks of just "togetherness", hopefully we can THEN begin to work on a joint recovery plan."

"No pressure, no commitment OTHER than the above. Let's see where it takes us. I hope not, but if this is the end of our marriage I want to enjoy it our final moments together...for me, you and the kids. No fighting, no arguments, one month/6 weeks of peace and togetherness. What do you say, let's end this well."

Mr. Wondering

We had a wonderful Friday night. I meet him after work and we spent about 2 hrs just talking having a drink. most of the conversation was R talk but it was calm quiet and nice talk. he then asked if i wanted to go some where more quiet and so we went to his place and spent another hour just being together. It gave me such high hopes cause he kept saying how could this happen to us, why did it happen to us, and how crazy and dumb I was for not seeing how much he cared and loved me. We held eachother with so much love. All I could say was that I was stupid to make the choices I did cuase I didn't give "us" the chance to make things better by not communicating.

Then Sat. H didn't call or anything. I just kept hoping that he would want to do something together. I called and let him know I was taking the kids swimming and he was more than welcome to join us. He spoke with the kids and let them know he was going to try to make it. I looked out for him all afternoon. and he did not show. Late that night he called to let me know that he wanted the kids Sunday. He mentioned that his room mate was not going to be home that night. but he said nothing else. then he quickly added "I will be there early to pick up the kids, depending on how I feel" Which he was trying to let me know that he was going out clubbing. I did not react to his comments.

Sunday he finally picked up the kids at noon and droped them back home at 8pm. At the time he dropped them off I asked him to stay a few to talk but he didn't want to. He acted cold distant and angry.I just reminded him that I loved him and that I just wanted to be in his company with no commitments. I couldn't help but have a few tears escape. I told him that he knew how I felt and no games. He then went on to say that that was exactly what he didn't want to happen. To see that I would get attached and hurt. That was the reason he wouldn't want to spend time with me. Cause I would want to know what was going on in his life and that I would feel that we where together again.

I know I am having an issue with him going out and meeting women, drinking and partying. He is having a good time with his new freedom. I don't feel resentment or anger I feel sadness cause he doesn't seem to want to be with me and the kids.

I did talk to one of his sisters and she insisted that he is still in deep thought about where he wants his life to go. She said that he truely and deeply misses me but she also see's that his ego, pride and anger won't let him find his way back into our M.