Translation: I want you to take the responsibility for my decision to leave.

Tell him he is a grown man and this is a free country. You don't have the power to set him "free". Only he does.

I borrowed H's cell phone today and checked the call record, from what I saw (some could have been erased) but anyway, there has been no phone contact between him and OW since the day after he came home. If they are talking, it's either from work, via email or he's erased the messages. So still unsure here.

Orchid,

Just to clarify, H and I are still living in the same house. I don't see either one of us moving out. Things are just at a stand sill here until I have some $$$$$$$$$ saved.

I know I said I hadn't hit the anger stage but I guess that's not completly true as there were a few MC'g sessions that I did go through some anger. Those issues are still unresolved so I'm not sure if the anger is still buried or if it's gone. I don't know part of me thinks that in order to release anger there has to be some apologies and reasons, and I didn't get that, so that's why I don't know that I have gone through it it or not. Right now, though I don't feel the anger. I have a hard time being angry with anyone, (other than my son who knows how to push my buttons)

Peachblossom

I've told him that before but I would always add at the end that I don't do divorce. So this time was my way of letting him know completly that while he as a choice as to stay or go, so do I. I wanted to let him know my boundaries.

My questions: I don't see that me telling H my boundaries in reference to us, will be enough for H to want to change, that is why I was wanting to know if my telling him the changes that I need to see in order to believe he wants to work on our marriage. I don't want to have to try to analyze everything he does, I'd rather him know what I'm looking for.

Would the letter be a bad thing to do? However I was thinking if I give a clear picture of what I need then it would be like a road map for him. He can choose to follow it or not.

I second Orchid's advice on reading love must be tough by James Dobson. This would be good reading for you.

Have you asked H if he could buy you a car? I remember he has a secret savings acct. If you guys are living together, and still married, why can he not help you with this? The son who "stole" your truck is also his son- who he has a history of enabling. Why should you suffer alone for his behavior??

Also- I know this is not a parenting thread- but you really need to get tough with your son. He is a grown man. He will never start acting like an adult until he is required to. Apply some of the tough love concepts on him ASAP. Who is this "friend" of his? Have you turned him into the cops? Why is your son not contacting his "friend" to get your truck back. THe whole sitch sounds crazy to me!

Also- starting today- forget about the Marriage. Live your life as if your H was not living there. I still believe you should be in plan B. Plan A is killing your love for your H. It needs to stop now and go into as close to a plan B as you can get. I would not invite him out anymore. I would seriously live as if he were already moved out. Let him come to you when he is ready. I really hate that you cannot move out. That is what you need to do. If you cannot move out, live as though he has moved out. If he approaches you, then engage-but no more approaching him. He knows where you stand and he knows how you feel. The ball is in his court. No letter- no nothing.

Please read Love Must Be Tough! Apply the concepts to both H and son.

Keep us in touch.

Stay Strong.

((((((((((LOVING HIM))))))))))))

Spend the energy you have spent on the M on yourself. Can you get a second job to speed the financials up? I know you are going to school- that's great. Maybe sign back up for that motorcycle class. It will help him come around if he sees you going on with your life with or without him.

Hi Liz,

Thanks for your wonderful thoughts and questions. It helps me more then you can realize to have others reply. The questions are great because I have to stop and think about things and of course the coments are learning tools for me.


I will be ordering the book the end of this week. I overspent over the weekend so have to wait for another payday.


I guess you could call it self pride. I refuse to ask H for anything at this point. I want H to know I can stand on my own feet and no matter how much him or anyone tries to knock me down, I will survive.


I do the best that I can as far as not enabling son, however it's very difficult when H enables and in my eyes buys son off. It's been this way for years and that is one of the key issues that I see is a MAJOR problem in our marriage. H doesn't see this or refuses to acknowledge this.

I do think H is trying a little bit though, he actually took son's car away from him and has threatened to sell it. Of course I'm sure that H will use the money he gets from the sale of the car to apply towards what H spent on son's lawyer.


Yes, the police have the name of son's friend. They have been out to his house. Of course there are conflicting stories to what son says and what "friend's wife" says. Son has told me he would take a polygraph test and I passed this information on to the detective. This won't really matter other then to show me son is telling the truth. Son won't get on the stand and tesify against friend (scared) even if the DA is willing to proscute. Bottom line is unless the detective reports the truck as stolen insurance won't pay. The detective hasn't reported it as stolen because of conflicting stories.

I agree with you on this one. I'm trying to as much as I can without being rude.


I really wish I could afford to go complety dark and do plan b. Kinda ironic how so many are scared to go Plan B and while that would scare me, to some degree it would be a relief.


Sometimes I am scared that it has already killed it. I'm trying to hold on to the love that I have and hope that things change before it is gone. The morning I told him I was setting him Free, I told him I was going to give him ONE last hug as his wife and that was going to be it until and unless things change.

I am really trying, For example, over the w/e I was going to Church to see nephew and nieces in a vacation bible school program and as I was leaving, I told H, I'm going to church to watch them and you are welcome to meet me there if you want. I'm really trying to do as you said because that's what I think I need to do also. It's just had. H has been such a big part of my life for 27 years it's like I don't know who I am anymore without him.


This is the one I struggle with the most. That was why I asked about the letter. I am a very analytical person and I can take the least thing and read to much into it. When most go to Plan B they give their spouse a letter stating their love and what the conditions for reconciling are. I never told H that, basically I just said things have to change. I'm not sure that comment is good enough.


I will order the book this weekend.

I put in 11.5 hours overtime this week. That should help some. For the most part I'm cutting corners as best as I can and will try to get overtime every week. Granted it won't be as many hours as it was this week. But every little bit will help.

I was trying to figure out where my money had been going lately and I figure since the end of April, H's affair I have spend approx $3,000 due to it. (lawyer and PI)

I'm also trying to help my nephew out since they just move here less then a month ago. He's given me such emotional support that I really don't think I would be this far along emotionally without him being here. Granted I'm not giving them cash, but I do invite them over to eat fairly often (5 in there family) so my grocery bill has gone up.

Then over the weekend I try to stay busy with them, helps me get out of the house and forget things for a bit and next thing I know I have would up spending about $150.

I am thinking about selling my organ though just to have the money to speed things along a bit.

I plan on re-taking the motorcycle class next May. The weather is getting to hot here to do it this year. You have to wear long pants, long sleeve shirt, and gloves and full face helmet when taking the riding part of the class (2 days - almost all outdoors)

I mentioned last night to my nephew when H was also in the room that next year I plan on buying myself a bike. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also as long as I get an A in this college class I'm taking, my company will reimburse me for it, so I can use that money to register for another class or I can apply it towards the attorney. I'm leaning towards the latter one.

Gosh I ramble a lot. Your post was one small paragraph and mine was so much longer. Somehow I tend to over state things.

Most libraries have this book. Go get it today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I still worry about the letter. Maybe write a revised plan b letter. Instead of saying that you no longer want contact, state that you are no longer going to engage in the marriage until he _______whatever. I hope someone else can advise you on what to say in your letter, because I am not sure what would be most effective. Whatever you decide- make sure to post it here before you give it to him.
One of the things I would definately list as a requirement to get you back in the marriage is that he becomes transparent. You should have access to all his phone and email records. Those who have nothing to hide-hide nothing. Also-start MC again.

I was happy to hear that you went to church. That is something else you could start doing for yourself. That was my saving grace when my M was in trouble.

I was shocked to hear your son has a car. Why do you not take his car until this truck mess is straightened out. Pride is great- but come on! You are without a car and he has one-You need to take his car and tell him he can have it back when you get either your truck or an insurance check for your truck. I am having a hard time understanding that situation...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Now- go to the library- they will most likely have Love Must Be Tough. You can buy it later, when you have the $$

This was one time I have seen my H step up to the plate. He has taken the keys from our son so in essence the son has no car. H says he will sell son's car. I'll have to wait and see if he does that. But for now, SON IS NOT DRIVNG and has no car. I am not about to drive son's car as it is what I call a getto cadalliac. I don't want to say much more about the son's car except to say I won't drive it.

I will check and see if the library has the book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do think I need to write H a letter telling him what I need in order for me to beleive he is wanting to work on our marriage. Right now I see nothing from him. I think I'm going to work on writing one tonight or tomorrow night while he is in school and yes I will post it before I give it to him and ask for it to be critiqued.

Once again thank you Liz, I think most others here have given up on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feel like a lone wolf.

loving...
Just wanted to let you know I haven't given up on I'm just self involved right now and don't want to give you bad advice. I do check on you daily though and you are in my prayers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I think mimi might be away on vacation I haven't noticed her post recently.

Hang in there. Keep posting. You are not alone.

Thank You ChaCha. It helps to know that you are at least checking in on me.

Please remember if you need me for anything I am here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

for some reason- I can't see the letter. The last post I see is from 7/31.....

You must have deleted the letter.

Was this a PLAN B letter?

No, actually it was more of a letter letting H know what I need in order to stay in the marriage. I'm a very analytical person and I was analyzing everything he was doing, not doing, saying and not saying and it was driving me crazy.

For now I have decided not to give him the letter but I have a kept a copy of it and should I decide at some point in the future to give it to him I will repost it.

I apologize to everyone here that has given me such great advise along the way, but I needed some down time. Anyway, I'm back again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Updates on things here;

My truck has been found. We currently have the truck in a safe location until we can get it in the shop (we don't feel safe keeping it at home since a truck key is still missing). The truck was located in some woods. It was not wrecked or stripped and was in remarkably good condition. The woods were located about 1 block from where the one that took the truck from my son lives. The detective is on vacation this week so haven't had a chance to talk to him.

As far as H and I, I believe the A is over since he is coming home on time, and when school let out the other night early he was here before his normal time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also borrowed his phone one day last week and he had no time to erase the history from when I asked to borrow the phone and he gave it to me. It seems the last contact via phone was the day after he came home. (I think it's a little over 2 weeks now)

Things have improved dramatically from before the A was exposed to now. H talks more to me and does not show the anger he use to. He still does not seek me out to talk but if I go to him or I'm downstairs he will talk to me.

I am still in IC'g and the counselor seems to think I'm taking steps in the right direction. I'm focusing on me more now. I try to get out and do a few things (this is hard for me since I'm typically a homebody). I guess what I'm doing is "faking" it till I make it, if that makes sense.

Going to end this here as I don't want this post to be extra long.

Update on H and I - part 2

I am learning to let H know my feelings on things without expecting a reply from him. For example: I told him that it hurts me when he doesn't include our oldest son in things and it hurts to see that he is doing the same with our grandson.

Yesterday was my birthday, and I wasn't sure that I even wanted to be at home. I think it was not knowing if H would even acknowledge it or not.

H sent flowers to work, and the card was signed with H's name, oldest son's name, youngest son's name and grandson's name. (first time he has ever included oldest son and grandson's name). What hurt though was he use to sign the card (Love) now nothing there just the names. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Not seeing that made me cry. (no not in front of H, even sitting here thinking about it makes me cry) I know I should be happy over the flowers, and I am, especailly since it had all the names on it.

Anyway, after coming home, I got dressed up, and when I came downstairs H said "You look nice". I said thank you. I then told him I was going out to eat, he asked with who. I should have replied differently then I did, but I can't undue that. I told him I was going alone since a few friends had invited me out for the night and I told them I was going out to eat so since I didn't want to lie I felt I should go out to eat. H's reply to this was, He would go with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He even asked me if I wanted our son's and grandson to come. My reply was No. Grandson was cranky and youngest son still has his jaw wired.

We went to a place we use to go to, Logans, which was my choice, and I had an okay time. It felt awkward. To me, H doesn't feel like my H anymore. H would normally take my hand and hold it, and there was always some form of affection. Now nothing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He is still not wearing his wedding band. We did no relationship talking. I did notice H is talking a lot more and shared a lot more of his work and things he does at work with me. (Maybe he's discovering that conversation is a big need of mine) See there I go again, analyzing things. I think the next feeling I will share with him, is how it hurts me that he doesn't wear his wedding band

Update on H and I - part 3

I have no idea where our marriage is heading, but I am continuing to put in overtime and saving money.

I have bought the book Boundaries and Love must be tough. I just got them this week so it will take me a while to read them.

I guess now comes the questions that I am most confused about:

Should I broach the subject again of another NC letter?

How do I bring up the idea of a plan to ensure NC with OW forever?

How can I tell if he is in withdrawal?

Should I ask if he's willing to go back to MC'g? If so when and how should I bring this up?

How come he is still not showing affection, or remorse?

Why is he still sleeping on the couch?

Is it okay to ask again if he will fill out the EN's questioneer? He hates filling out forms.

What should I be doing from day to day? I think I'm the one starting to withdraw some (at least on some days) so while I'm not LB'g I don't know that I can do a great Plan A now. I'm trying to do the best that I can though.

I know the only real person that knows these answers are my H but I'm hoping others have been through this and can maybe answer from their point of view.

Orchid: Yes you can and should. How you bring it up c/b critical. We found (I found) a way to giving a short phrase to have open dialog. For us we use: 'Can I ask you a question?' If he did not respond, no question was asked. He usually let me ask and I did, after he acknowledged me. This meant I now had his attention. It works both ways and has been helpful.

Then I would ask something like: Where are you with that NC stuff? (Leave an open ended question). Saying stuff vs letter leaves it a bit vague and you can gauge his answer and attitude by his response or lack thereof.


Orchid: You don't. He does. You should ask him what is he going t/b doing to make you feel safe? Again leave it a bit vague. When he probes for more info, give NC w/OW as an example.


Orchid: Watch his words and actions. Xws are poor actors for the most part. Expect withdrawal. No signs is not healthy.


Orchid: Again, ask it as an open ended question like: When r u going to the MC or did you call Steve yet?


Orchid: Affection or remorse require effort. He is at the very least an Xws not your H yet. Be patient.


Orchid: Again....this stuff takes time. Give him a reasonable amount of time. If he is still on the couch...ask him. 'Why r u on the couch?' Or if u r too chicken t/d so......replace the couch with a new one and leave a few days inbetween with no couch. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Ask as an open ended question like: How did u fill out the question about......?


Orchid: U s/b going through the phases of grieving. Anger may still be a stage to content with. Read my link about the 5 stages of grieving. Call Steve @ MB for a recovery plan for you. Let your H know you are going t/b having phone counseling done in the confort of your own home with Steve. He is welcome to join but has to fill out the EN questionnaire 1st. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Good to know you will not just take our POV and apply them to yourself without customizing it for your needs 1st. Take what is good and discard the rest.

Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Lots of patience is required. Most of the recovery work w/b on his shoulders not yours. Make sure you have finished your plan A improvements.

The one scar my H carries around is that due to his A, we as his family have learned to live without him for a long time. This means we can do it again if we do not feel safe and loved. He knows this and he lives with this fact. It affects his daily decisions. I don't minimize that fact. When he used to get angry and threaten D, I met him head on and told him to go ahead. Then I reminded him that it w/b easier since we know how to live w/o him. That usually quieted him down. Basically he lost the power to manipulate us as he did in the A. The power of love and care went back into the hands of the family and if did not act as a valuable family member, then he immediately lost some privileges.

take care,
L.

Remember: What's important are the ACTIONS not WORDS...

It's a MAN'S way....



WONDERFUL! WONDERFUL! You see...ACTIONS!!!



He is not your former H. Recovery involves building a NEW RELATIONSHIP. Our Hs are not the same once they have had an A....


Great..GOOD SIGN!! It's OK to FOCUS ON HIS ACTIONS....



I would let this go as long as he continues as you describe above...

He knows about the wedding band..

Give him some time to put it on...ON HIS OWN...My H loved surprising me by putting on his ring...

I'm recalling Georgia reminding me to step out of MY GENERAL ROLE

I would continue as you are for right now....

He is making tremendous strides on his own without your coercion...

I would continue with your PLAN A...



Same answer as above...Not yet...Continue with your Love Deposits...Back off and let him do the pursuit...



The flowers and taking you out to dinner are his ways of showing affection and remorse. What are YOU wanting him to do? Give him room to do this HIS WAY....



Try being seductive. What turns your H on? Remember ACTIONS..not WORDs....



This is PLAN A. If he HATES filling out forms, don't ask him to do so. My H has NEVER filled out the forms.

I think it would be helpful for you guys to budget in at least one session with Steve Harley. Why don't you keep that on the backburner?



This seems inconsistent with what you are reporting. Seems like you are doing a great PLAN A..and if you are not, WHY NOT? It sounds like your PLAN A has been effective and/or is being effective. Why give up as you approach the finish line?



This about YOU and not about YOUR HUSBAND. What are YOU going to do? What is YOUR PLAN..not what YOU need for HIM to do? Try not to feel the urge to control HIM or to get HIM to do anything....THIS IS IMPORTANT....

For example, what can YOU DO to encourage him to come to your bed...do all that YOU can do....

I didn't get any of this stuff at first either so don't see me as criticizing you...

HINDSIGHT IS 20-20..trying to help you to learn from my mistakes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Better Questions for you to consider in this FOCUS ON YOU...

What makes you feel SEXY..defined as FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF as a WOMAN?

What gets you in touch with YOUR OWN SEXUALITY?