I’ve send the following post on my other thread too, but since this is such a controversial topic I thought it would be beneficial to start a separate thread and hopefully get Dr Harley’s feedback on this:

It seems this issue on POJA versus exposure is something people have very different opinions and philosophies on. I have my own personal opinion on this too but since there are so many opinions flying around on this, I do wish I could have a VERY straight, direct and clear-cut answer from Dr Harley himself regarding POJA and exposure in a situation where the BS doesn’t approve and agree on exposure to the OPS (whatever the reasons or circumstances). I would like to know this so that there can be NO doubt or different interpretations about Dr Harley’s viewpoint and opinion on this whatsoever again in future.

Specifically, I would like to know from him that - since exposure to the BS and POJA in an M is both important - what about a situation where the BS doesn’t agree and approve on exposure to the OPS? Must the FWS honor the BS request and do nothing without the BS “enthusiastic agreement” or must the FWS continue with exposure to the OPS anyway (by using "Radical Honesty") no matter what the consequences on the M, FWS and BS might be?

What bothers me is that on the one side Dr Harley says an A should ALWAYS be exposed to the BS, but on the other side he also says issues should always be POJA’d between the spouses after an A… But which one is the most important especially after a recent betrayal by the FWS? Is it more important for the FWS in such a situation to do the “morally right” thing and inform the OPS without the BS agreement and approval…and therefore put the relationship and trust between the BS and FWS at risk (which might have a negative influence on the M especially if there is bad consequences after the exposure) or is it more important for the FWS to honor and submit to the BS (especially where the BS is a man and head of the household in a Christian marriage) and take his/her feelings into account above anything else and not do anything (in this case exposure) without the BS approval and “enthusiastic agreement” first?

IMPORTANT: Please note that I'm NOT referring to situations where someone breaks the law such as child molestation, murder, theft or whatever - of course these are entirely different issues.

Since I live in S.A. and have a different “time-slot” here, I will not be able to phone Dr Harley himself. I will however appreciate if someone can take the time and effort to get a direct and clear-cut from Dr Harley on this so that there can be NO doubt about this issue whatsoever again in future. Maybe someone will be willing to phone in during his radio show.

**thud**

Suzet, you might be interested what the OW have to say
on the subject on this other site.

They tend to rationalize not telling the other man's wife either.

I have decided to tell the wife

Zippydy doo dah, I'm not interested in reading anything on that website at all so I respectfully ask you to remove that link from this thread.

I'm only intersted in Dr Harley's opinion.

Thank you.

You already know Dr Harley's opinion Suzet. You really aren't interested in hearing anything that contradicts your actions though.

Tell me Suzet, if someone rings Dr Harleys radio program with your question and he gives you the answer you already know he will give, will it make the slightest difference to your actions?

Suzet, you don't have to read that thread if you don't
want to.

However, it reveals the mind of the OW and perhaps
displays more honesty about why they don't tell the
OM's wife than you are willing to admit.
(I have learned a lot about what makes my FWW tick
from reading on this board.)

I know you are blaming your husband but you have your
own agenda. You could persuade your husband in a minute,
(to tell the wife) if it was what you really wanted.

YOU KNOW THAT.

I have to go to work now so I will not be on the computer
again until tomorrow morning.

This is not the case. Yesterday after work I've brought up this topic with my H again (I've also read/show to him ALL the responses on my thread I've received yesterday) but he still don't agree/approve on exposure to the OMW on this stage. Said it can be done if it becomes necessary in future and if OM doesn't respect my NC request.

No, I don't...not regarding my specific question in this thread.

You are free to make your own assumptions about me BigK...I can't control that.

I don't know the answer he will give BigK, but if he says that in his opinion that exposure to the OPS weight heavier than POJA and the BS agreement & approval then yes...I might probably start to reconsider and rethink the whole situation and what I need to do.

Suzet...I really didn't want to open up an old can of worms, but this reminds me of a pivotal thread some time back about telling a man that he was not the biological father of child he was deceived into raising.

Almost all of the folks who are castigating you for not telling were perfectly willing to continue deceiving the man in that situation.

Some posters admitted that they were in possession of this critical info, but decided that they weren't the right person to tell it or that it would only do more harm than good to tell him.

Yet these same folks are rabid advocates of sharing information that has the potential to destroy a family just as surely as sharing paternity information.

Do you see the disconnect?
It fundamentally affected the way I view their posts.

Hence...situational ethics.

Interesting...thanks LO!

Further reason why I would specifically like to get Dr Harley's opinion on this since his view will hopefully be totally unbiased.

Gee Low Orbit, you might wanna post a link to that thread. I for one have no idea what you are talking about.

Does anyone know if it's possible to e-mail/post to Dr Harley to get his opinion and what is the procedure?

Hello Low! How have you been...

Here is an interesting thought.....

At what point does "truth" matter?

If I define truth as a piece of factual information, then falsity could almost be defined as a lack of factual information.

With those definitions - essentially meaning one has the whole story or one doesn't - where does that relieve us in general from attempting to be the best people we can be? Is the knowledge what makes us good or bad, or the choices we make with the knowledge we have? I believe the latter. I am not one to hold a bad decision against someone who did not have all the facts when they made it.

Can the truth hurt? Yes. But a lie can as well. And conversely, BOTH can also cause relief.

I think the PAIN comes from the fact that in our attempts to navigate this life we all live, it is PAINFUL and takes effort to change course. I don't thing the truth or falsity itself is the cause of that. I think that when a new piece of information arises that makes us undergo this change, be it truth OR falsehood, is when it "hurts."

For example, one typically feels relief when we discover a truth (or get more information) that confirms to our sensibilities that our chose path is indeed correct. The sense of relief that comes with the statement "Boy, I sure nailed that one!!"

It is funny - if I spared you pain by taking steps to prevent some potential physical accident (say something falling off a scaffold and clunking you on the head as you walked by) and you were none the wiser, who would stand up and say you should experience the pain of that because that is "truth?"

Why is it that when INFORMATION is painful is it questionable as to wether it is necessary or not? Some people just don't get it until they experience pain. And we call that "tough love." But where we get into the grey area is when we are protecting those around us from the informational pain caused by someone ELSE'S actions.

I, personally, can't think of a situation where "I'd rather not know." But that is a personal choice...

Perhaps wisdom is to ask the person we are considering telling how THEY feel about it. This could be done in a philosophical vein and probably not seem too weird. Would be a good discussion over a few cold ones.

Hi LO,

You may remember that you and I have discussed religion before -- and I have TONS of respect for your thoughts and experiences.

The thread you reference is excellent, to be sure, but I don't think it addresses a situation like Suzet's.

I don't think the POJA is meant to be "verses" exposure. The POJA is what new marrieds, or couples seeking to stregthen their marriage, or recovered couples use to keep their marriage strong. It seems to me that it would be almost impossible to negotiate anything other than what to have for dinner with an active WS.

My understanding is that it is NOT used during an active affair - which, let's face it, makes sense, since a spouse in an affair is not in the best emotional place to be making decisions, anyway.

The question, I think, is whether or not Suzet is coming from the place of an active WS or a recovered FWS.

I suspect my opinion is not welcommed here... since I have been where Suzet is, and can remember very well how I felt when exposure was threatened: I felt like a caged animal and would go to any length to avoid it.

It might surprise Suzet to know that I apologized to the OM's SO. What she did with my words is not my problem... whether she believed me or not is not my problem... she had a right to know, and I took responsibility for MY ACTIONS that INTRUDED on HER relationship (they were common law and I have since heard that they legally married).

That is where I come from... and all of this happened before I ever found MB. It was the right thing to do.

"I am going to tell (confess) to THE UNKNOWING BETRAYED SPOUSE that there was an affair so he/she may protect his/her self . This is my moral obligation that my conscience demands. Let's discuss this, and agree to a plan that fulfills my moral obligation."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is how to POJA exposure

it can be done by the WS or the BS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pep

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

POJA the method

Pep

Suzet,

OM thinks you are his soulmate. If you don't recipricate those feelings as you say, you MUST tell OMW. It's not fair to her or to OM, who will continue to live in a fantasy that is destroying both himself and his M.

I also just had contact with FOM. After reading your thread (and Kiwi J's) I decided to tell OMW. I did it behind H's back because he felt very strongly against exposure. I told him last night, and he was very angry. He is more at peace with it this morning.

I sent OMW a package yesterday and I'm scared to death to talk to her, but it is the right thing.


You can do the right thing, too!

((Suzet))

Suzet, I emailed Dr. Harley with a very similar question although I did not use the word POJA.

If you remember Dr. Harley was not that clear in his response which was: "I'm okay with letting your husband decide whether or not to let your former lover's wife know about the affair."

I had asked him specifically if he suggested that I expose to the OM's W in spite of my husband not wanting to expose. That was his reply.

If you want his email, I will post it as long as it is OK to do that on here?

here here...new beginning....

this has NOTHING to do with her mariatal relationship..

it is the right thing to do..

for the OM's wife...

your post speaks clearly and concisely to the REAL issue...

I wouldn't be able to post on this site if I didn't believe that
the right to know
and the opportunity to make informed decisons....

are very very core issues to healing and recovery for ALL parties...

ARK